Question:

My 16 year old daughter has been diagnosed with eosinophilic gastroenteritis ( a very rare condition that effects the stomick and intestions)She I also Serverly Iron deficient. which we know know is from the poor absorbtion. It has been hard to find any onther treatment other than a life time of steroid treatments. has anyone had seccess with a holistic treatment?

Response:

My 16 year old daughter has been diagnosed with eosinophilic gastroenteritis ( a very rare condition that effects the stomick and intestions)She I also Serverly Iron deficient. which we know know is from the poor absorbtion. It has been hard to find any onther treatment other than a life time of steroid treatments. has anyone had seccess with a holistic treatment?

*If* it’s a food allergy (which is a long shot) it’s the very rare Type IV variety.  Avoiding the foods responsible would help, but it would take a while to see results and I don’t think there are any lab tests for this sort of reaction. See Brostoff and Gamlin’s book "The Complete Guide to Food Allergy and Intolerance" – though there isn’t much about this in it. In the absence of tests, all you can do to find out more is elimination diets.  Start with the commonest allergens – dairy products, wheat, eggs, nightshades.  But read about how to do an elimination diet first, and try each stage for longer than the usual period. ==============  j-c  ======  @  ======  purr . demon . co . uk  ============== Jack Campin:  11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/

  for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975

stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Response:

You should talk to several allergist about the possibility of hidden food allergies. Food sensitivities can be hidden in the additives that are used in processed foods. Dr. Jonathan Brostoff has a very good book about food allergies. You should be able to find others at the library. Other members of your family may have food allergies and not know it. Food sensitivities can trigger acne, psoriasis, migraines, hayfever, gastrointestinal problems, asthma, eczema, sleep disorders, ADD, autism, depression, and many other health problems. Remember, you can develop a mild reaction 72 hours after you eat a food. Food sensitivities affect from 12 – 25% of the population. Check it out. Take Care, Brad_Cha…@yahoo.com

Response:

Question:

I agree… a sleep study is probably in order.  Might just be the interrupted sleep that’s causing your headaches….  I take Elavil (75 mg) at bedtime for migraine prevention and I sleep like a teenager! Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I would check out a sleep specialist.  Some migraine doctors are pretty good about sleep issues, so that might be the way to go too. Michelle just found this group… heres my problem, maybe some help please…body shuts down usually same time every nite…get 4-5 hrours sleep, and usually wake at same time, 114 am, then its downhill from there. cant fall back alseep..often times, im jolted out of sleep and immediately get a terrible headache….continually clock watching so i dont over sleep…cant break the habit…havent had a good nites sleep in years….thanks, jim

Response:

I would check out a sleep specialist.  Some migraine doctors are pretty good about sleep issues, so that might be the way to go too. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just found this group… heres my problem, maybe some help please…body shuts down usually same time every nite…get 4-5 hrours sleep, and usually wake at same time, 114 am, then its downhill from there. cant fall back alseep..often times, im jolted out of sleep and immediately get a terrible headache….continually clock watching so i dont over sleep…cant break the habit…havent had a good nites sleep in years….thanks, jim

Response:

just found this group… heres my problem, maybe some help please…body shuts down usually same time every nite…get 4-5 hrours sleep, and usually wake at same time, 114 am, then its downhill from there. cant fall back alseep..often times, im jolted out of sleep and immediately get a terrible headache….continually clock watching so i dont over sleep…cant break the habit…havent had a good nites sleep in years….thanks, jim

Response:

; ; I agree… a sleep study is probably in order.  Might just be the ; interrupted sleep that’s causing your headaches….  I take Elavil (75 mg) ; at bedtime for migraine prevention and I sleep like a teenager! ; ; Liz ; ; I have a teenager and from what i have seen of his sleep habits and ; his cousin, I don’t think sleeping like a teenager is good ; advertising. They seem to keep very late hours though they are able to ; sleep in during the day. ; ; Kadee I remember those days……when I could sleep til 11 and not wake up with a headache.  Now I wake up early and have to get up or I will surely get a migraine.  Old People!!! Lea —  Lea Jackson

Response:

     If you seriously want to get rid of migraine headaches then …

I stopped reading right there, Brad. If you can ask anyone in this group a question like that then you don’t know about migraines … lucky you. BobB    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–

Response:

Try hiding the clocks time display, set the alarm, and go gack to sleep for God’s sake. You’ve been like this for years?!! Better get some professional help – soon! _joe

     If you seriously want to get rid of migraine headaches then see an allergist. Food allergies are responsible for more health problems than many people think. They can cause mild or severe reactions, and allergic reactions can occur 72 hours after you eat a food. In addition, your skin may look healthier, and you may have a lot more energy. Food allergies can trigger asthma, eczema, migraines, sleep disorders, joint pain, hayfever, psoriasis, and many other health problems. Research this, or talk to an allergist. This is worth the time to study. I guarantee it.

Response:

Try taking 3mg of MELATONIN 1/2hr before bed. _joe

Response:

Women going through perimenopause should not take melatonin.  It affects the cortisol in a negative way.  Women who are on hormones for hrt should also not take it.  Melatonin made my migraines worse and did nothing to help me sleep. Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Try taking 3mg of MELATONIN 1/2hr before bed. _joe

Response:

Try hiding the clocks time display, set the alarm, and go gack to sleep for God’s sake. You’ve been like this for years?!! Better get some professional help – soon! _joe

Response:

I guess I meant when *I* was a teenager!  I wasn’t one to stay up late. Just a good deep sleep….. Liz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree… a sleep study is probably in order.  Might just be the interrupted sleep that’s causing your headaches….  I take Elavil (75 mg) at bedtime for migraine prevention and I sleep like a teenager! Liz I have a teenager and from what i have seen of his sleep habits and his cousin, I don’t think sleeping like a teenager is good advertising. They seem to keep very late hours though they are able to sleep in during the day. Kadee

Response:

just found this group… heres my problem, maybe some help please…body shuts down usually same time every nite…get 4-5 hrours sleep, and usually wake at same time, 114 am, then its downhill from there. cant fall back alseep..often times, im jolted out of sleep and immediately get a terrible headache….continually clock watching so i dont over sleep…cant break the habit…havent had a good nites sleep in years….thanks, jim

I would second the other response, and get a sleep study done.  There are a host of problems that it could be.  For example, in addition to migraines, I have sleep apnea (which means I stop breathing many times during the night and it interrupts my sleep, meaning I never get to the deeper sleep levels).  Check out alt.support.sleep-disorder. — Michael Meissner http://www.the-meissners.org

Response:

Hmm, that’d be me on the weekends Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree… a sleep study is probably in order.  Might just be the interrupted sleep that’s causing your headaches….  I take Elavil (75 mg) at bedtime for migraine prevention and I sleep like a teenager! Liz I have a teenager and from what i have seen of his sleep habits and his cousin, I don’t think sleeping like a teenager is good advertising. They seem to keep very late hours though they are able to sleep in during the day. Kadee

Response:

Question:

Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com

wrote in message <news:3ECC5294.B03FA755@btconnect.com… Ed, I’ll reply tommorrow. siRNAs are interesting – the laser guided precision weapons of the medical world. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

thanks paul i stand guilty of goofing about too much in the earlier message. you mention eliminating myelin recognizing t-cell populations. my suggestion here does exactly that and without degrading the rest of the system.  actually using such a method we could prolly even use adjuvants when medically needed just like "normal" folk.  effect transcriptional ive interference with mbp and plp antibodies et al; means we’re not "autoimmune". obvious questions here would be how individualized are the actual IgG CDR regions?  if reasonably common between patients that means a packagable system. how to get the design and pre-clinical testing done.  obviously a drug company running thousands of variations on a sequence to find optimal siRNA strings is going to be fastest, but is that the only effective method here? are there yet t-helper siRNA delivery systems? and if so are they applicable to humans?  unless they get to the cytoplasm and then the transcriptional machinery they don’t matter.  i know there to be companies selling delivery systems.  just not sure as to specifics for these cells. how to create interest enough to get this started?  i could see something like this being put on an FDA fasttrack given the economic costs and relative permenance of the disability.  i’m unfamiliar with the processes outside the u.s. is this reducable to benchtop science?  as in an old ABI primer synth, a few humble 96 well plates of some fools magnetically harvested TH cells, a shaky old boekle incubator and some fluorescent ligands for markers? (not that i’d actually try it) if it’s not something that can be made common to groups then is it a thing that might be simplified as a shrink wrapped protocol for individual production at diagnostic labs?  or is the design of siRNA so arcane as to prevent this?  DX labs all have primer synths, PCR, incubation etc, etc…  and many may house the skills required or are possibly within weekend workshop training range given a pre pakaged methodology and packaged reagent kit. not expecting hard answers here my freind.  and feel free to pass this on. might be worth a discussion.  this could constitute a "road map" to stopping the bastard. no joke. best ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - edward hill wrote:

Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com wrote in message <news:3EC77451.DF3842B8@btconnect.com… d…@cheetah.net wrote: I read carefully your responses and comments. What is the bottom line? Occam’s Razor and looking for the simpler MS reasons for a complex/misunderstood or unknown cause(s) seem incorrectly juxtaposed, if that’s your thesis. No attack infered, just a question. Occam’s razor is the one that shaved Plato’s beard. The riddle of Plato’s beard goes somthing along the lines of: "The present king of France has a beard?". hi paul i may be wrong but the quote sounds to me like the question that sorta’ launched modern logic. bertrand russel i think?! "the king of france’s hair is red" the king was bald.  but the older sentential and syllogistic logics didn’t deal with that sorta statement well.  so ol’ bertrand came up with new toys to handle such of which i’m woefully ignorant. far as i know anyways.  feel free to correct me if you’ve a better memory of this.  i’m prolly misquoting a logic prof of ages back. i really miss my hippocampus. and while we’re at it waddya think of the siRNA/IgG thing? How can you tell if this is true or false? There is no present king of France. You can’t say it’s true or false because to do so would assert that there is a present king of France and you’ve checked how hirsute he is. So the statement is neither true nor false and is therefore nonsense. But it’s clearly not nonsense because you can make sense of it. Thus the riddle – a statement that is not false, not true and not nonsense either. How can you describe entities that may or may not exist? Is existence an attribute of an entity, much like beardedness? The present king of France doesn’t have existence but he may have a beard. Alternatively, you could view statements as having two properties – sense and a reference. The statement has sense but no reference. The approach of Occam’s razor is to remove the clutter of an infinite number of entities and relationships so that you can see what’s going on – not necessarily to minimise their complexity although this is often the result. ahhh.  wasn’t the world a nicer place befor beniot mandlebrot? i miss descart. it was a kinder gentler place when he and newton ran things.  butterflies didn’t go around starting hurricanes and such unless you ascribe to G.G. marquez the beautiful mad mexican in which case all bets were off anyways. tick, tick, tick. it all made sense.  then along comes neils b., plank and fermi and the crazy fission trip to hiroshima…further if current trends continue. but i transgress. Given that we don’t know exactly what causes MS allows people to describe an infinite number of possible relationships between it and other events and entities. I don’t find this approach to shed much light on the pathogenesis. I suggest using Occam’s razor to shave away those for which there is no evidence nor are useful to modelling the disease until such a time that evidence for them is found or they become useful. in this case, i think william of occam was on the ball.  and you counsel wisely regarding models of MS causality. but to those who try, good luck simplifying this mess.  because there’s nuthin’ simple about this system we reside in.  cause and effect are remarkably nonlinear my freinds.  personally i doubt that MS should even be called a disease like it’s something seperate from who and what we are. my own admittedly limited view of this beast is that it’s utterly bound in us as organisms.  treating MS as "other" to be removed somehow like a bunion or polyp if only we find the right blade or nostrum is a fools errand. we can and will find effective means of countering and i think reversing the damage of the attack. but "cure"…. that’s a mistaken and in our cases costly path followed lemminglike by the masses.  it involves literally cutting off our noses to spite our faces. forget it. so… siRNA?  any thoughts? best regards ed Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Ed, I’ll reply tommorrow. siRNAs are interesting – the laser guided precision weapons of the medical world. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -edward hill wrote:

Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com wrote in message <news:3EC77451.DF3842B8@btconnect.com… d…@cheetah.net wrote: I read carefully your responses and comments. What is the bottom line? Occam’s Razor and looking for the simpler MS reasons for a complex/misunderstood or unknown cause(s) seem incorrectly juxtaposed, if that’s your thesis. No attack infered, just a question. Occam’s razor is the one that shaved Plato’s beard. The riddle of Plato’s beard goes somthing along the lines of: "The present king of France has a beard?". hi paul i may be wrong but the quote sounds to me like the question that sorta’ launched modern logic. bertrand russel i think?! "the king of france’s hair is red" the king was bald.  but the older sentential and syllogistic logics didn’t deal with that sorta statement well.  so ol’ bertrand came up with new toys to handle such of which i’m woefully ignorant. far as i know anyways.  feel free to correct me if you’ve a better memory of this.  i’m prolly misquoting a logic prof of ages back. i really miss my hippocampus. and while we’re at it waddya think of the siRNA/IgG thing? How can you tell if this is true or false? There is no present king of France. You can’t say it’s true or false because to do so would assert that there is a present king of France and you’ve checked how hirsute he is. So the statement is neither true nor false and is therefore nonsense. But it’s clearly not nonsense because you can make sense of it. Thus the riddle – a statement that is not false, not true and not nonsense either. How can you describe entities that may or may not exist? Is existence an attribute of an entity, much like beardedness? The present king of France doesn’t have existence but he may have a beard. Alternatively, you could view statements as having two properties – sense and a reference. The statement has sense but no reference. The approach of Occam’s razor is to remove the clutter of an infinite number of entities and relationships so that you can see what’s going on – not necessarily to minimise their complexity although this is often the result. ahhh.  wasn’t the world a nicer place befor beniot mandlebrot? i miss descart. it was a kinder gentler place when he and newton ran things.  butterflies didn’t go around starting hurricanes and such unless you ascribe to G.G. marquez the beautiful mad mexican in which case all bets were off anyways. tick, tick, tick. it all made sense.  then along comes neils b., plank and fermi and the crazy fission trip to hiroshima…further if current trends continue. but i transgress. Given that we don’t know exactly what causes MS allows people to describe an infinite number of possible relationships between it and other events and entities. I don’t find this approach to shed much light on the pathogenesis. I suggest using Occam’s razor to shave away those for which there is no evidence nor are useful to modelling the disease until such a time that evidence for them is found or they become useful. in this case, i think william of occam was on the ball.  and you counsel wisely regarding models of MS causality. but to those who try, good luck simplifying this mess.  because there’s nuthin’ simple about this system we reside in.  cause and effect are remarkably nonlinear my freinds.  personally i doubt that MS should even be called a disease like it’s something seperate from who and what we are. my own admittedly limited view of this beast is that it’s utterly bound in us as organisms.  treating MS as "other" to be removed somehow like a bunion or polyp if only we find the right blade or nostrum is a fools errand. we can and will find effective means of countering and i think reversing the damage of the attack. but "cure"…. that’s a mistaken and in our cases costly path followed lemminglike by the masses.  it involves literally cutting off our noses to spite our faces. forget it. so… siRNA?  any thoughts? best regards ed Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com

wrote in message <news:3EC77451.DF3842B8@btconnect.com… d…@cheetah.net wrote: I read carefully your responses and comments. What is the bottom line? Occam’s Razor and looking for the simpler MS reasons for a complex/misunderstood or unknown cause(s) seem incorrectly juxtaposed, if that’s your thesis. No attack infered, just a question. Occam’s razor is the one that shaved Plato’s beard. The riddle of Plato’s beard goes somthing along the lines of: "The present king of France has a beard?".

hi paul i may be wrong but the quote sounds to me like the question that sorta’ launched modern logic. bertrand russel i think?! "the king of france’s hair is red" the king was bald.  but the older sentential and syllogistic logics didn’t deal with that sorta statement well.  so ol’ bertrand came up with new toys to handle such of which i’m woefully ignorant. far as i know anyways.  feel free to correct me if you’ve a better memory of this.  i’m prolly misquoting a logic prof of ages back. i really miss my hippocampus. and while we’re at it waddya think of the siRNA/IgG thing? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

How can you tell if this is true or false? There is no present king of France. You can’t say it’s true or false because to do so would assert that there is a present king of France and you’ve checked how hirsute he is. So the statement is neither true nor false and is therefore nonsense. But it’s clearly not nonsense because you can make sense of it. Thus the riddle – a statement that is not false, not true and not nonsense either. How can you describe entities that may or may not exist? Is existence an attribute of an entity, much like beardedness? The present king of France doesn’t have existence but he may have a beard. Alternatively, you could view statements as having two properties – sense and a reference. The statement has sense but no reference. The approach of Occam’s razor is to remove the clutter of an infinite number of entities and relationships so that you can see what’s going on – not necessarily to minimise their complexity although this is often the result.

ahhh.  wasn’t the world a nicer place befor beniot mandlebrot? i miss descart. it was a kinder gentler place when he and newton ran things.  butterflies didn’t go around starting hurricanes and such unless you ascribe to G.G. marquez the beautiful mad mexican in which case all bets were off anyways. tick, tick, tick. it all made sense.  then along comes neils b., plank and fermi and the crazy fission trip to hiroshima…further if current trends continue. but i transgress.

Given that we don’t know exactly what causes MS allows people to describe an infinite number of possible relationships between it and other events and entities. I don’t find this approach to shed much light on the pathogenesis. I suggest using Occam’s razor to shave away those for which there is no evidence nor are useful to modelling the disease until such a time that evidence for them is found or they become useful.

in this case, i think william of occam was on the ball.  and you counsel wisely regarding models of MS causality. but to those who try, good luck simplifying this mess.  because there’s nuthin’ simple about this system we reside in.  cause and effect are remarkably nonlinear my freinds.  personally i doubt that MS should even be called a disease like it’s something seperate from who and what we are. my own admittedly limited view of this beast is that it’s utterly bound in us as organisms.  treating MS as "other" to be removed somehow like a bunion or polyp if only we find the right blade or nostrum is a fools errand. we can and will find effective means of countering and i think reversing the damage of the attack. but "cure"…. that’s a mistaken and in our cases costly path followed lemminglike by the masses.  it involves literally cutting off our noses to spite our faces. forget it. so… siRNA?  any thoughts? best regards ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

eh…@world.std.com (edward hill) wrote in message <news:549f2a40.0305190351.32227da@posting.google.com

…

ed i’ve been trying and trying to call you.. what happened? do you or does anyone know of medicine for hypothalmus disfunction and m.s.? ann i was very worried about you. still am. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> eh…@world.std.com (edward hill) wrote in message <news:549f2a40.0305180749.664f4675@posting.google.com

…

> > hi folks > > Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com> wrote in message <news:3EC63043.E6CB6276@btconnect.com

…

> > > Hi Chris, > > > There is a big difference between allergic diseases like > > > asthma, eczema and migraine and autoimmune diseases like MS, > > > RA and Type 1 diabetes. In allergic diseases the body > > > overreacts to foreign proteins such as pollen, dust mite > > > detritus and certain dietary substances – NON-SELF. In > > > autoimmune diseases the immune system attacks self-proteins > > > such as myelin and connective tissues – SELF. >  [snip much goodness] > > > If we could remove the sub-population of helper T cells that > > > are immuno-reactive to myelin proteins from people with MS, > > > I believe that, with the exception of Wallerian > > > degeneration, all disease activity would cease. Our cytokine > > > responses would then be considered normal. > > we agree. > ummm > let me rephrase that. > the "we agree" was meant as you and i are in agreement. > despite my monumental and well founded ego.   > i ain’t royalty > getting back to the idea of siRNA. > any thoughts? > my guess’d be the real problem if there is one would be getting the > stuff to where the IgG is formed.  location, location, location. > i hear there are a few tricks for managing such difficulties. > ‘less i miss my guess. such short sequences could be whipped up in an > old ABI dna synth normaly used to make PCR primers.  it’d take a > little noodling to get rna from the thing but i’m guessing not much > and the older units can be had on lab-x or ebay for a few hundred plus > shipping. > as stated, i’m vastly oversimplifying things here.  but the devils in > the details no matter which way you go.  wheelchairs and "premature > decreptitude" concentrate the mind wonderfully. > and frankly folks.  i’m tired of waiting for the idjits to bail us > out. > seems to me the need to publish and the need to get the job done have > long since parted ways. > and as much as i like copaxone.  i’m tired of being a cash cow. > as far as pharmacorps go i think ms is a why fix what ain’t broke > situation. we look great on a spreadsheet just the way we are. > ed > (one a knight is enougb) > hill > > here’s an option that’s relativly new to the potential arsenal. > > consider siRNA.  it offers the option of interfering with the > > production of specific proteins by derailing their RNA during > > transcription. > > most if not all of the autoimmune attack we sustain is antibody > > mediated.  aka; needs IgG to kick it over. > > for the normal folks out there who have better things to do than stay > > up nights reading such drivel…  IgG has what are called > > Complimentarity Determining regions which "fit" antigens.  when such a > > fit occurs, the cascade of events leading to immune attack begins. > > an IgG critter looks like a "Y" made of egg noodles in several looping > > structures.  the top inside of the V shape atop the Y is made up of a > > coupl’a "variable" regions that determine "complimentarity" or fit > > with a specific critter called an "antigen".  in our cases those > > regions sometimes "fit" myelin bits or proteins like MBP(myelin basic > > protein) and one or two others specific to the myelin sheath. > > when the IgG complimentarity determining regions see something that’s > > part of "self" as an antigen, that is by definition autoimmunity. > > (like autoeroticism without the smile)   think of a helper T cell as a > > bowling ball covered with these Y shapes sorta like velcro.  such > > T-cells are always circulating hunting for antigens that fit the > > complimentarity determining regions on the IgG surface. > > enter siRNA. > > (warning:  vast hairbrained oversimplification ahead) > > transcription  is the process of turning DNA into protein.  one step > > in the process is RNA transcription. (think a silly putty copy) > > as i understand ‘em siRNA is a small string of man made RNA that > > confuses polymerase (the enzyme doing DNA transcription) thereby > > derailing, interfering with, screwing up and otherwise preventing the > > transcription in question from happening.  so whatever the DNA in > > question was trying to build (transcribe) doesn’t get finished. > > i’m pretty sure we know the DNA sequences for the autoimmune CDRs > > involved in MS. or at least most of ‘em. > > knowing that, is far as i know a big part of designing the siRNA > > involved in halting the expression of said DNA. > > i could be wrong ’bout this and ideas here are welcome. > > but as i see it this’d be a pretty good shot at stopping the beast. > > ed   > > > Take care, > > > Paul > > > All About MS – the latest MS News and Views > > > http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ > > > Chris Fincham wrote: > > > > Paul wrote: > > > > "The problem with addressing pro-inflammatory cytokines is > > > > that these things are part of the immune system’s signalling > > > > system and the risk is that the immune system becomes > > > > slightly compromised." > > > > Yabbut, what if the pro-inflammatory cytokines are signalling that > > > > lifestyle is causal, as per the following article? > > > > Please note that other studies show reduction of pro-inflammatory > > > > cytokines can be achieved via ingesting essential fatty > > > > acids/antioxidants, weight loss, exercise & psychotherapy…there’s > > > > even an article which indicates that "side-stream" cigarette smoke (I > > > > assume "side-stream" = second-hand smoke) stimulates production of > > > > pro-inflammatory cytokines. > > > >  Please also note that the article mentions "lack of exposure to > > > > infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, generating a biased > > > > Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and leukotriene > > > > production" – aka my beloved hygiene hypothesis… > > > > Chris F > > > > Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 2003 Apr;90(4):371-7; quiz 377-8, 421 > > > > Diet and asthma: has the role of dietary lipids been overlooked in the > > > > management of asthma? > > > > Spector SL, Surette ME. > > > > University of California-Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California, USA. > > > > calalle…@dnamail.com > > > > OBJECTIVE: This article discusses the role of diet in the management > > > > of asthma. Readers will gain an understanding of how evolution of the > > > > western diet has contributed to increased asthma prevalence and how > > > > dietary modification that includes management of dietary lipids may > > > > reduce symptoms of asthma. > > > > DATA SOURCES: Relevant studies published in English were reviewed. > > > > STUDY SELECTION: Medline search to identify peer-reviewed abstracts > > > > and journal articles. > > > > RESULTS: Asthma and obesity, which often occur together, have > > > > increased in prevalence in recent years. Studies suggest adaption of a > > > > western diet has not only contributed to obesity, but that increased > > > > intake of specific nutrients can cause changes in the frequency and > > > > severity of asthma. Increased asthma prevalence has also been proposed > > > > to arise from increased exposure to diesel particles or lack of > > > > exposure to infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, > > > > generating a biased Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and > > > > leukotriene production. Antagonists directed against these > > > > pro-inflammatory mediators include anticytokines and antileukotrienes. > > > > A reduction in the levels of inflammatory mediators associated with > > > > asthma has also been seen with dietary interventions, such as the > > > > administration of oils containing gamma-linolenic acid and > > > > eicosapentaenoic acid. > > > > CONCLUSIONS: Evidence suggests elevated body mass index and dietary > > > > patterns, especially intake of dietary lipids, contribute to symptoms > > > > of asthma. Dietary modification may help patients manage their asthma > > > > as well as contribute to their overall health. > > > > PMID: 12722956 [PubMed - in process] > > > > > The balancing act is to reduce the bad bits of inflammation > > > > > (like MS) without the risks of serious infection, cancer or > > > > > even other immune diseases caused by the shift in immune > > > > > strategy – e.g. Th1 to Th2. > > > > > The other significant issue is that cytokine therapy will > > > > > never permanently cure any disease. > > > > > The fact that cytokines, TNF-alpha, Interferon-gamma, > > > > > Interleukin-1, Interleukin-2 and other pro-inflammatory > > > > > cytokines are raised in people with MS is not because their > > > > > cytokine systems are dysfunctional but because their immune > > > > > systems are attacking their own tissue via inflammation. > > > > > Thus far no cytokine gene has been reproducably shown to be > > > > > dysfunctional in MS. > > > > > All these same arguments apply to chemokine therapy, > > > > > endolthelial adhesion therapy and MMP therapy. > > > > > The deeper (and for me better) level is to address the > > > > > underlying cause of the inflammtion rather than reduce the > > > > > effects of the cytokines that are released once it’s > > > > > started. Doing that may be more radical for the immune > > > > > system and even

… read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -eh…@world.std.com (edward hill) wrote in message <news:549f2a40.0305180749.664f4675@posting.google.com

… hi folks Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com wrote in message <news:3EC63043.E6CB6276@btconnect.com… Hi Chris, There is a big difference between allergic diseases like asthma, eczema and migraine and autoimmune diseases like MS, RA and Type 1 diabetes. In allergic diseases the body overreacts to foreign proteins such as pollen, dust mite detritus and certain dietary substances – NON-SELF. In autoimmune diseases the immune system attacks self-proteins such as myelin and connective tissues – SELF.  [snip much goodness] If we could remove the sub-population of helper T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin proteins from people with MS, I believe that, with the exception of Wallerian degeneration, all disease activity would cease. Our cytokine responses would then be considered normal. we agree.

ummm let me rephrase that. the "we agree" was meant as you and i are in agreement. despite my monumental and well founded ego.   i ain’t royalty getting back to the idea of siRNA. any thoughts? my guess’d be the real problem if there is one would be getting the stuff to where the IgG is formed.  location, location, location. i hear there are a few tricks for managing such difficulties. ‘less i miss my guess. such short sequences could be whipped up in an old ABI dna synth normaly used to make PCR primers.  it’d take a little noodling to get rna from the thing but i’m guessing not much and the older units can be had on lab-x or ebay for a few hundred plus shipping. as stated, i’m vastly oversimplifying things here.  but the devils in the details no matter which way you go.  wheelchairs and "premature decreptitude" concentrate the mind wonderfully. and frankly folks.  i’m tired of waiting for the idjits to bail us out. seems to me the need to publish and the need to get the job done have long since parted ways. and as much as i like copaxone.  i’m tired of being a cash cow. as far as pharmacorps go i think ms is a why fix what ain’t broke situation. we look great on a spreadsheet just the way we are. ed (one a knight is enougb) hill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

here’s an option that’s relativly new to the potential arsenal. consider siRNA.  it offers the option of interfering with the production of specific proteins by derailing their RNA during transcription. most if not all of the autoimmune attack we sustain is antibody mediated.  aka; needs IgG to kick it over. for the normal folks out there who have better things to do than stay up nights reading such drivel…  IgG has what are called Complimentarity Determining regions which "fit" antigens.  when such a fit occurs, the cascade of events leading to immune attack begins. an IgG critter looks like a "Y" made of egg noodles in several looping structures.  the top inside of the V shape atop the Y is made up of a coupl’a "variable" regions that determine "complimentarity" or fit with a specific critter called an "antigen".  in our cases those regions sometimes "fit" myelin bits or proteins like MBP(myelin basic protein) and one or two others specific to the myelin sheath. when the IgG complimentarity determining regions see something that’s part of "self" as an antigen, that is by definition autoimmunity. (like autoeroticism without the smile)   think of a helper T cell as a bowling ball covered with these Y shapes sorta like velcro.  such T-cells are always circulating hunting for antigens that fit the complimentarity determining regions on the IgG surface. enter siRNA. (warning:  vast hairbrained oversimplification ahead) transcription  is the process of turning DNA into protein.  one step in the process is RNA transcription. (think a silly putty copy) as i understand ‘em siRNA is a small string of man made RNA that confuses polymerase (the enzyme doing DNA transcription) thereby derailing, interfering with, screwing up and otherwise preventing the transcription in question from happening.  so whatever the DNA in question was trying to build (transcribe) doesn’t get finished. i’m pretty sure we know the DNA sequences for the autoimmune CDRs involved in MS. or at least most of ‘em. knowing that, is far as i know a big part of designing the siRNA involved in halting the expression of said DNA. i could be wrong ’bout this and ideas here are welcome. but as i see it this’d be a pretty good shot at stopping the beast. ed   Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ Chris Fincham wrote: Paul wrote: "The problem with addressing pro-inflammatory cytokines is that these things are part of the immune system’s signalling system and the risk is that the immune system becomes slightly compromised." Yabbut, what if the pro-inflammatory cytokines are signalling that lifestyle is causal, as per the following article? Please note that other studies show reduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines can be achieved via ingesting essential fatty acids/antioxidants, weight loss, exercise & psychotherapy…there’s even an article which indicates that "side-stream" cigarette smoke (I assume "side-stream" = second-hand smoke) stimulates production of pro-inflammatory cytokines.  Please also note that the article mentions "lack of exposure to infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, generating a biased Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and leukotriene production" – aka my beloved hygiene hypothesis… Chris F Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 2003 Apr;90(4):371-7; quiz 377-8, 421 Diet and asthma: has the role of dietary lipids been overlooked in the management of asthma? Spector SL, Surette ME. University of California-Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California, USA. calalle…@dnamail.com OBJECTIVE: This article discusses the role of diet in the management of asthma. Readers will gain an understanding of how evolution of the western diet has contributed to increased asthma prevalence and how dietary modification that includes management of dietary lipids may reduce symptoms of asthma. DATA SOURCES: Relevant studies published in English were reviewed. STUDY SELECTION: Medline search to identify peer-reviewed abstracts and journal articles. RESULTS: Asthma and obesity, which often occur together, have increased in prevalence in recent years. Studies suggest adaption of a western diet has not only contributed to obesity, but that increased intake of specific nutrients can cause changes in the frequency and severity of asthma. Increased asthma prevalence has also been proposed to arise from increased exposure to diesel particles or lack of exposure to infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, generating a biased Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and leukotriene production. Antagonists directed against these pro-inflammatory mediators include anticytokines and antileukotrienes. A reduction in the levels of inflammatory mediators associated with asthma has also been seen with dietary interventions, such as the administration of oils containing gamma-linolenic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid. CONCLUSIONS: Evidence suggests elevated body mass index and dietary patterns, especially intake of dietary lipids, contribute to symptoms of asthma. Dietary modification may help patients manage their asthma as well as contribute to their overall health. PMID: 12722956 [PubMed - in process] The balancing act is to reduce the bad bits of inflammation (like MS) without the risks of serious infection, cancer or even other immune diseases caused by the shift in immune strategy – e.g. Th1 to Th2. The other significant issue is that cytokine therapy will never permanently cure any disease. The fact that cytokines, TNF-alpha, Interferon-gamma, Interleukin-1, Interleukin-2 and other pro-inflammatory cytokines are raised in people with MS is not because their cytokine systems are dysfunctional but because their immune systems are attacking their own tissue via inflammation. Thus far no cytokine gene has been reproducably shown to be dysfunctional in MS. All these same arguments apply to chemokine therapy, endolthelial adhesion therapy and MMP therapy. The deeper (and for me better) level is to address the underlying cause of the inflammtion rather than reduce the effects of the cytokines that are released once it’s started. Doing that may be more radical for the immune system and even life-threatening but it could be a single event rather than permanent therapy. I think this is why so many people with MS are excited by ASCT and Campath because they or their descendent treatments may halt progression altogether. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ Chris Fincham wrote: I’m in the early stages of learning about pro-inflammatory cytokines, and I’m finding that these beasties are not only implicated in immune-mediated disorders, but in (eg) eating disorders, cardiac disease, depression and even the aging process.

… read more »

Response:

in article 3EC7A5FE.C9FD…@btconnect.com, Paul Jones said:

What evidence do you have for that?

When you’re the Smartest Man In The World, you don’t need evidence. Keith http://www.woollymammoth.com/keith

Response:

hi folks Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com

wrote in message <news:3EC63043.E6CB6276@btconnect.com… Hi Chris, There is a big difference between allergic diseases like asthma, eczema and migraine and autoimmune diseases like MS, RA and Type 1 diabetes. In allergic diseases the body overreacts to foreign proteins such as pollen, dust mite detritus and certain dietary substances – NON-SELF. In autoimmune diseases the immune system attacks self-proteins such as myelin and connective tissues – SELF.

[snip much goodness]

If we could remove the sub-population of helper T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin proteins from people with MS, I believe that, with the exception of Wallerian degeneration, all disease activity would cease. Our cytokine responses would then be considered normal.

we agree. here’s an option that’s relativly new to the potential arsenal. consider siRNA.  it offers the option of interfering with the production of specific proteins by derailing their RNA during transcription. most if not all of the autoimmune attack we sustain is antibody mediated.  aka; needs IgG to kick it over. for the normal folks out there who have better things to do than stay up nights reading such drivel…  IgG has what are called Complimentarity Determining regions which "fit" antigens.  when such a fit occurs, the cascade of events leading to immune attack begins. an IgG critter looks like a "Y" made of egg noodles in several looping structures.  the top inside of the V shape atop the Y is made up of a coupl’a "variable" regions that determine "complimentarity" or fit with a specific critter called an "antigen".  in our cases those regions sometimes "fit" myelin bits or proteins like MBP(myelin basic protein) and one or two others specific to the myelin sheath. when the IgG complimentarity determining regions see something that’s part of "self" as an antigen, that is by definition autoimmunity. (like autoeroticism without the smile)   think of a helper T cell as a bowling ball covered with these Y shapes sorta like velcro.  such T-cells are always circulating hunting for antigens that fit the complimentarity determining regions on the IgG surface. enter siRNA. (warning:  vast hairbrained oversimplification ahead) transcription  is the process of turning DNA into protein.  one step in the process is RNA transcription. (think a silly putty copy) as i understand ‘em siRNA is a small string of man made RNA that confuses polymerase (the enzyme doing DNA transcription) thereby derailing, interfering with, screwing up and otherwise preventing the transcription in question from happening.  so whatever the DNA in question was trying to build (transcribe) doesn’t get finished. i’m pretty sure we know the DNA sequences for the autoimmune CDRs involved in MS. or at least most of ‘em. knowing that, is far as i know a big part of designing the siRNA involved in halting the expression of said DNA. i could be wrong ’bout this and ideas here are welcome. but as i see it this’d be a pretty good shot at stopping the beast. ed   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ Chris Fincham wrote: Paul wrote: "The problem with addressing pro-inflammatory cytokines is that these things are part of the immune system’s signalling system and the risk is that the immune system becomes slightly compromised." Yabbut, what if the pro-inflammatory cytokines are signalling that lifestyle is causal, as per the following article? Please note that other studies show reduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines can be achieved via ingesting essential fatty acids/antioxidants, weight loss, exercise & psychotherapy…there’s even an article which indicates that "side-stream" cigarette smoke (I assume "side-stream" = second-hand smoke) stimulates production of pro-inflammatory cytokines.  Please also note that the article mentions "lack of exposure to infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, generating a biased Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and leukotriene production" – aka my beloved hygiene hypothesis… Chris F Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 2003 Apr;90(4):371-7; quiz 377-8, 421 Diet and asthma: has the role of dietary lipids been overlooked in the management of asthma? Spector SL, Surette ME. University of California-Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California, USA. calalle…@dnamail.com OBJECTIVE: This article discusses the role of diet in the management of asthma. Readers will gain an understanding of how evolution of the western diet has contributed to increased asthma prevalence and how dietary modification that includes management of dietary lipids may reduce symptoms of asthma. DATA SOURCES: Relevant studies published in English were reviewed. STUDY SELECTION: Medline search to identify peer-reviewed abstracts and journal articles. RESULTS: Asthma and obesity, which often occur together, have increased in prevalence in recent years. Studies suggest adaption of a western diet has not only contributed to obesity, but that increased intake of specific nutrients can cause changes in the frequency and severity of asthma. Increased asthma prevalence has also been proposed to arise from increased exposure to diesel particles or lack of exposure to infectious agents or endotoxins during childhood, generating a biased Th2 immune response, and increased cytokine and leukotriene production. Antagonists directed against these pro-inflammatory mediators include anticytokines and antileukotrienes. A reduction in the levels of inflammatory mediators associated with asthma has also been seen with dietary interventions, such as the administration of oils containing gamma-linolenic acid and eicosapentaenoic acid. CONCLUSIONS: Evidence suggests elevated body mass index and dietary patterns, especially intake of dietary lipids, contribute to symptoms of asthma. Dietary modification may help patients manage their asthma as well as contribute to their overall health. PMID: 12722956 [PubMed - in process] The balancing act is to reduce the bad bits of inflammation (like MS) without the risks of serious infection, cancer or even other immune diseases caused by the shift in immune strategy – e.g. Th1 to Th2. The other significant issue is that cytokine therapy will never permanently cure any disease. The fact that cytokines, TNF-alpha, Interferon-gamma, Interleukin-1, Interleukin-2 and other pro-inflammatory cytokines are raised in people with MS is not because their cytokine systems are dysfunctional but because their immune systems are attacking their own tissue via inflammation. Thus far no cytokine gene has been reproducably shown to be dysfunctional in MS. All these same arguments apply to chemokine therapy, endolthelial adhesion therapy and MMP therapy. The deeper (and for me better) level is to address the underlying cause of the inflammtion rather than reduce the effects of the cytokines that are released once it’s started. Doing that may be more radical for the immune system and even life-threatening but it could be a single event rather than permanent therapy. I think this is why so many people with MS are excited by ASCT and Campath because they or their descendent treatments may halt progression altogether. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/ Chris Fincham wrote: I’m in the early stages of learning about pro-inflammatory cytokines, and I’m finding that these beasties are not only implicated in immune-mediated disorders, but in (eg) eating disorders, cardiac disease, depression and even the aging process. So I found the following study thought-provoking – I love the idea that (relatively cheap/easily available) antidepressants might be able to control the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines…but will the entire world end up taking antidepressants to stay healthy? Chris F Int J Neuropsychopharmacol 2002 Dec;5(4):401-12 Related Articles, Links Effects of antidepressants on the production of cytokines. Kenis G, Maes M. Department of Psychiatry and Neuropsychology, University of Maastricht, Maastricht, The Netherlands. There is now evidence that major depression is associated with an up-regulation of the inflammatory response system (IRS). One of the major factors in this IRS activation is the hyperproduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines. Recently, a number of studies examined whether there is a causative role of these inflammatory mediators in the aetiology of major depression. Studies with animal models and cytokine immune therapy in humans suggest that pro-inflammatory cytokines induce depressive symptomatology. Moreover, these depressive symptoms can be effectively reversed by antidepressant treatment. Thus, it may be suggested that antidepressants suppress pro-inflammatory cytokine production and/or action, resulting in improvement of depressive symptoms. The influence of antidepressants on cytokine production has been examined in culture systems in vitro, and in animal models of depression – in which cytokine production is induced by endotoxin administration.

… read more »

Response:

d…@cheetah.net wrote:

I read carefully your responses and comments. What is the bottom line? Occam’s Razor and looking for the simpler MS reasons for a complex/misunderstood or unknown cause(s) seem incorrectly juxtaposed, if that’s your thesis. No attack infered, just a question.

Occam’s razor is the one that shaved Plato’s beard. The riddle of Plato’s beard goes somthing along the lines of: "The present king of France has a beard?". How can you tell if this is true or false? There is no present king of France. You can’t say it’s true or false because to do so would assert that there is a present king of France and you’ve checked how hirsute he is. So the statement is neither true nor false and is therefore nonsense. But it’s clearly not nonsense because you can make sense of it. Thus the riddle – a statement that is not false, not true and not nonsense either. How can you describe entities that may or may not exist? Is existence an attribute of an entity, much like beardedness? The present king of France doesn’t have existence but he may have a beard. Alternatively, you could view statements as having two properties – sense and a reference. The statement has sense but no reference. The approach of Occam’s razor is to remove the clutter of an infinite number of entities and relationships so that you can see what’s going on – not necessarily to minimise their complexity although this is often the result. Given that we don’t know exactly what causes MS allows people to describe an infinite number of possible relationships between it and other events and entities. I don’t find this approach to shed much light on the pathogenesis. I suggest using Occam’s razor to shave away those for which there is no evidence nor are useful to modelling the disease until such a time that evidence for them is found or they become useful. Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Rob Duncan wrote:

I don’t believe we are over-sensitive to cytokines. Not in the general sense.  But our WBC’s are and our CNS is.  Subtly so.

What evidence do you have for that? There is only contradictory evidence. No specific cytokine genes or cytokine receptor genes have been reproducably linked with a susceptibility to contract MS.

Im not convinced, at all, that MS is an autoimmune disorder or an inflammatory disorder. I think more is going on and those are side issues that dont need to be addressed, if the main cause is.

Well, if it looks like a dog, has four legs and barks, I’m inclined to call it a dog.

It’s neither. The problem is that we have a sub-population of CD4+ T Cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin epitopes. This is weakly associated with a number of Major Histocompatibilty Complex Class II genes and raised immune responses to a number of viruses notably four of the seven known Human Herpes viruses – HSV-1, HSV-2, EBV and HHV-6. Thats as much speculation as my theory is. If not more so.

Data, my dear boy, data. It’s speculation that is supported by evidence. Whatever theory you choose to adopt must explain the consistently observed association between MS and raised anti-herpes virus immune markers. It must also explained the immune system cross-recactivity between certain herpes virus and myelin antigens. Go to Medline and search on "Epstein-Barr virus multiple sclerosis" (119 results). Then search on "Human Herpes Virus-6 multiple sclerosis" (101 results). Then search on "Herpes Simplex multiple sclerosis" (155 results).

Mycoplasma can carry self-antigens to avoid detection.  When the WBC’s catch on thats what prompts the so-called "auto-immune" reaction.  In my theory anyway. Perhaps, even once a cure of the pathogen, most likely mycoplasma, among others, is affected… the thymus continues production of WBC’s who are sensitised against self.  MBP.

As far as I can understand what you are saying, it appears that you are putting forward a case for molecular mimicry between mycoplasmas and myelin proteins. Some mycoplasmas, particularly chlamydias are known to engender autoimmunity – most notably genital chlamydia. The causal link between for C. Pneumoniae and MS is contraversial because several studies have not been able to reproduce Siriam’s data. There may, however be an association between C. Pneumonia and disease severity. That said, there are lots of species of mycoplasma and you really need to be talking about a specific species in order to put some meat on the bones of your argument.

A test, which Im pushing for, is one of sublime creativity and suple simpleness.  It should go a long way towards helping prove my idea or helping debunk it.

Again, if this is a test for mycoplasma levels and MS, then you really need to be saying which mycoplasma you are going to test for.

Either way it will help all of us in the realm of science.  Imagine, testing the CSF fluid of people infected neurologicaly with a known mycoplasma infection, lesions on MRI, and checking for MBP self-markers on the mycoplasma.

Well, Siriam and others have done this for C. pneumoniae and the results are equivocal.

Then checking to see if WBC’s have those very same markers.  Since its a curable infection and most likely they would never get MS this will be very interesting.

Actually, it’s rather hard to rid oneself of mycoplasma infection for good and all. Such microbes are all around us. Long-term minocycline (an antibiotic) medication has been shown to have some effect on MS.

To test for markers of MBP on both WBS’s and the pathogen.

This is happening. Now computers are able to produce 3-D folded models from protein sequences. Epitopes may be derived from two areas of a protein string because they are next to eachother when folded up. Interestingly, a match has been found between an HHV-6 protein and myelin basic protein. This type of work is in its infancy and we can expect much more to come from it. Now the human genome has been largely sequenced along with many pethogen genomes, who knows what mimetopes (mimicking epitopes) will be unearthed.

Youre skipping something.  What causes this anti-myelin immune attack?

This is a big and complex question but I will have a go: Helper T cells each have specific receptors (TCRs) for a specific epitope (a section of a protein) with which it matches like two adjacent pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Each helper T cell has around 100,000 TCRs but all the receptors on a single helper T cell are identical to each other so that any one is only capable of locking onto one specific epitope. We have millions of different helper T cell populations. Helper T cells orchestrate the immune response seen in MS – this includes activating B cells and thus the antibody response. B cells will not release antibodies without first receiving costimulation from a helper T cell with an equivalent receptor. To make the vast number of T cell receptors needed to fight the vast number of potential epitopes, genes are shuffled about on the genome. These shuffles are known as post-genomic changes. To make each receptor, two small sections, alpha and beta, are cut out from the genome and each receptor is tested against self-proteins in the thymus. Those than are immuno-reactive to self-proteins are eliminated. MOG and some other myelin protein fragments are not expressed in the thymus. This is normal. Everyone has some anti-myelin TCRs and is, in principle, able to mount an anti-myelin immune response. This has been elegantly demonstated in a laboratory. The question is, "How do these anti-myelin helper T cells populations become activated?" Helper T cells lock onto a protein complex on the surface of antigen presenting cells (macrophages, B cells, dendritic cells etc) called MHC class II. MHC II contains a letter box shaped structure through which protein segments (antigens) are presented to the helper T cells. Antigen presenting cells engulf dead cells and other matter which they digest for presentation to helper T cells. People with MS would seem to have one of several MHC class II alleles (gene variants) in that all the genetic configurations linked to MS include MHC class II alleles, particularly HLA-DR (DRB1*1501) and others. This may mean that MS-susceptible MHC II haplotypes are better able to present specific myelin antigens than other MHC II haplotypes. But how do these myelin antigens get into the antigen presenting cells in the first place? Well, antigen presenting cells may engulf pathogens – bacteria (including mycoplasmas), viruses, plasmodia etc – that contain epitopes that resemble myelin epitopes. Such mimicking epitopes are known as mimetopes. The whole process is known as molecular mimicry, antigenic mimicry or epitopic mimicry. Molecular mimicry has been demonstated experimentally in laboratory animals and I have a vague recollection of having read that has been demonstrated in human disease, though I may be wrong about that. The best bets for mimics, at this moment in time, are the four herpes viruses that I’ve already mentioned and a handful of endogenous retroviruses but there is no reason to rule out mycoplasmas or even dietary proteins such as the cow milk protein, butyrophilin. Whatever the real explanation for the cause of MS, it must include a model of how antigen presentation is affected and it must also explain the herpes findings.

What Im saying is that its a pathogen that sets up our immune system to do so, and its our genetics that allow it to play out once its exposed to certain environmental triggers.

Which is what I’m saying. I don’t necessarily rate mycoplasmas as the best bet for mimics but I don’t rule them out either – after all, there are so many different mycoplasma species.

Our disease isnt genetic.

If you mean "we don’t have specific faulty genes", then I agree. However, we do have one of several normal alleles combined in a way that makes us susceptibile to MS.

We’ve been exposed to more than one thing thats set us up for this disease.

Yes, I don’t think you’ll get much of an argument from anyone about that.

Rather, the presence of a sub-population memory T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin. Yes, thats obvious.  But why do they exist Paul?  

I’ve already tried to explain that.

What happened to create them in the first place?  A pathogen.  An illness.  Mycoplasma, brucella, chlamydia Pn., etc.

Probably a pathogen but could be another environmental protein such as a dietary one.

Except for one study in Finland on MBP , none of the several studies into myelin genes have reported even a weak association between myelin alelles and MS. We have normal myelin. Thats counters a lot of research pointing at the exact opposite.

Look Rob, I’m reluctant to argue from authority, but I’ve read up on this subject extensively and talked to immunologists and geneticists that specialise in MS and the general agreement is that no mylein allele has been reproducably linked to MS. What are you sources for these counter-assertions?

That our myelin isnt consistent.  That some have different fats, etc.,  I know that your speaking of genetics, but maybe the environmental trigger is the fats that go into composing the myelin.

Evidence please – I’ll accept Medline references.

(obviously only partly so because UVA/B exposure is the primary environmental factor)

I don’t dispute a geographical link – that link may be UV but it may also be pathogen related. For exapmle, MS is rare in areas where malaria is common even in susceptible populations. Here’s a fun possibilty – MS protects us against the interreaction of two pathogens, malaria and another, perhaps EBV. Since we migrated to an area where the mosquito carrying malaria cannot survive, this protection is not longer needed. The … read more »

Response:

"Paul Jones" <jones.p…@btconnect.com

wrote in message

news:3EC635DF.93A04019@btconnect.com…

Rob Duncan wrote: It may also be that theres another factor altogether responcible for our "over-sensativity" to normal or high-normal levels of pro-inflamatory cytokines.  Genetic in cause.  Or possibly the result of infection.

Such as

mycoplasma.  (you could have guessed I suppose)  ;^) I don’t believe we are over-sensitive to cytokines.

Not in the general sense.  But our WBC’s are and our CNS is.  Subtly so.

Whatever the case, its obvious cytokines play a role. Of course they do. MS is an inflammatory disease and cytokines are part and parcel of inflammation.

Im not convinced, at all, that MS is an autoimmune disorder or an inflammatory disorder.  I think more is going on and those are side issues that dont need to be addressed, if the main cause is.

If its not their over production then its our over sensativity to them. It’s neither. The problem is that we have a sub-population of CD4+ T Cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin epitopes. This is weakly associated with a number of Major Histocompatibilty Complex Class II genes and raised immune responses to a number of viruses notably four of the seven known Human Herpes viruses – HSV-1, HSV-2, EBV and HHV-6.

Thats as much speculation as my theory is.  If not more so.  Mycoplasma can carry self-antigens to avoid detection.  When the WBC’s catch on thats what prompts the so-called "auto-immune" reaction.  In my theory anyway. Perhaps, even once a cure of the pathogen, most likely mycoplasma, among others, is affected… the thymus continues production of WBC’s who are sensitised against self.  MBP. A test, which Im pushing for, is one of sublime creativity and suple simpleness.  It should go a long way towards helping prove my idea or helping debunk it.  Either way it will help all of us in the realm of science.  Imagine, testing the CSF fluid of people infected neurologicaly with a known mycoplasma infection, lesions on MRI, and checking for MBP self-markers on the mycoplasma.  Then checking to see if WBC’s have those very same markers.  Since its a curable infection and most likely they would never get MS this will be very interesting.  To test for markers of MBP on both WBS’s and the pathogen.

Something, even if its not the presense of a pathogens, is causing de-myelination to occur in responce. Demyelination is a direct response to an anti-myelin immune attack.

Youre skipping something.  What causes this anti-myelin immune attack?  What Im saying is that its a pathogen that sets up our immune system to do so, and its our genetics that allow it to play out once its exposed to certain environmental triggers.  Our disease isnt genetic.  Wever been exposed to more than one thing thats set us up for this disease.

Perhaps molecular debris from their past presense? Rather, the presence of a sub-population memory T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin.

Yes, thats obvious.  But why do they exist Paul?  What happened to create them in the first place?  A pathogen.  An illness.  Mycoplasma, brucella, chlamydia Pn., etc.

A distorted/defective coating from the same? Except for one study in Finland on MBP , none of the several studies into myelin genes have reported even a weak association between myelin alelles and MS. We have normal myelin.

Thats counters a lot of research pointing at the exact opposite.  That our myelin isnt consistent.  That some have different fats, etc.,  I know that your speaking of genetics, but maybe the environmental trigger is the fats that go into composing the myelin.  (obviously only partly so because UVA/B exposure is the primary environmental factor)

Otherwise we would see diffuse and diminishing damage right next to the breach in the BBB and NOWHERE else. And thats not the case. This is a puzzle – not just the spatial heterogeneity that you describe but also the temporal heterogeneity. Interestingly, certain types of MRI can detect abnormalities even in normal appearing white matter of people with MS. Furthermore, inflammation is pretty constant during early MS though most fails to produce clinical symptoms. The WBC’s have a target.  How do they know what to target? For my money, it’s molecular mimicry: http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/MolecularMimicry.html

Good site btw.  Mycoplasma can utilize a reverse molecular mimicry for their own advantage.  As has already been shown by science.  I suggest that the body catches on and then goes after the mycoplasma AND the tissue the mycoplasma has taken its disguise from.  Perhaps were already cured of this pathogen and our memory cells and our thymus continue on with the attack?  I sincerely hope not, or what Im doing might be a waste of time.  Not to mention the three studies under way on antibiotics. I like your site Paul.  Youve put a lot of work into it. Rob

Response:

On Sun, 18 May 2003 05:13:13 +0100, Paul Jones <jones.p…@btconnect.com

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi Chris, Chris Fincham wrote: There is a big difference in signs, symptoms and effects – but until ‘ya know absolutely fer shure the cause of each disease, you can’t rule out the possibility that they share the common cause(s) of lifestyle.  The geographic incidence is similar in all of the above disorders – they all occur mostly in folks who live in industrialized countries, in folks who live in other countries which have adopted a (so-called) Western lifestyle, or in folks who move to industrialized countries. I rather follow a mix of Occam’s razor and evidence-based science. I would prefer to keep the number of relations and entities as few as possible unless there is evidence to support any relationship. It’s impossible to assert that there is no link between modern pollutants and MS. But the asserted link has not been shown to any degree of statistical confidence (and that’s not because nobody has tried). I think there is always a great deal to be gained by looking at the big picture, as illustrated by (eg) the recent realization that boreal forests are in part fertilized by salmon, or the relatization not too many years ago that presticides sprayed on plants kill birds of prey. But the number of possible relationships between entities in the universe and MS is infinite. You need evidence (or at least a reasonable hunch) before embarking on a research project. What about a possible link between siamese cats and MS? My late grandfather’s long-case clock? The current configuration of the planets? The health of every living thing on earth is intimately connected to its environment – and as we’ve royally screwed up our environment, it seems only logical to me that we’ve at the same time royally screwed up our health. This has great resonance when thinking environmentally and politically. However, just because we are screwing up the world, it doesn’t follow that MS is the result of our screwing it up. We have to think in a more mechanistic fashion in order to explain a complex disease involving very many cells (each of which is the size of a city in terms of complexity, number of proteins and organisional structure). Broad brush assertions don’t have enough scientific rigour. You have to look at a molecular level because the damage is being done at a molecular level. Studies at a molecular level do not imply that industrial pollutants are involved in the pathogenesis of MS. What they do show is that proteins are involved which means something in the biological world. A genetic disposition to MS would also seem to involve otherwise healthy genes of the MHC class II. That means antigen presentation is somehow involved – the process whereby broken down proteins are presented to helper T cells. Somehow people with MS are able to present myelin or myelin-mimicking antigens to helper T cells with anti-myelin T cell receptors. I would hazard that an infectious agent such as EBV, HHV-6 or HSV-1 & -2 is responsable and there is a wealth of laboratory science supporting this. MS is probably autoimmune and the disease mechanism probably involves genes, immune system cells and infectious agents. Studies show that polluted drinking water contains inflammatory agents, as does polluted air & cigarette smoke, and chemicals in foods…and the folks who drink that water & breath that air etc. showed overproduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines.  Seems like a clear case of cause & effect to me. Which people? All people? People got sick before the industrial and agricultural revolution. The fight against infectious agents has been made more, not less, difficult by the burgeoning human population enabled by these events. Cigarette smoking causes a massive rise in cytokines associated with neutrophils – white blood cells that are part of the innate immune system. But these are not the same cytokines involved in the Th1 immunity seen in MS. I can’t find ant evidence that it has a great effect on the helper T cells which are the white blood cells implicated in MS. Cigarettes are likely to be linked with asthma than MS though they may effect MS disease course. Smoking prior to MS onset has a relative risk of 1.1 at weak level of significance in one study I read. This jumps to 1.6 after onset (implying it’s not causal). I would argue that people with MS are more likely to smoke because they have MS rather than vice versa. Water certainly contains inflammatory agents – I’ve had bacillic dystentry in Nepal from water so I know – but what specific substances in the water are linked to MS and what is the evidence for that? Same arguments go for food and water. I think it suggested that inflammatory agents such as polluted air and poor nutrition are causal to raised levels of pro-inflammatory cytokines – and I assume that in genetically predisposed people, asthma results. But we’re not talking asthma, are we? I thought you were trying to link non-biological pollutants to MS. "As an aside, inflammation is a highly complex and subtle bodily response. It is highly functional and without it we would die from a whole plethora of diseases – look at AIDS to see how people fare without the ability to produce an inflammatory response. All mammals have it in their arsenal and it has been millions of years in its evolution. To suggest that it is dysfunctional per-se is a nonsense. I’m not suggesting that at all.  I’m saying that our environment has been shown to be full of inflammatory agents in our air, water and food – and deficient in anti-inflammatory agents such as proper nutrition, exercise and low stress levels. But the fact that it is full of inflammatory agents has not be associated with MS. We did *not* evolve during millions of years of air & water pollution – that is a recent phenomenon, as is consumption of processed foods containing pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, preservatives, dyes & additives and living in overcrowded conditions. But MS is not that recent a phenomenon. It was one of the first neurological diseases to be described and there are plenty of suspected cases from before that. Nor did the human race evolve while sitting in chairs watching TV…and our immune systems evolved with continuous exposure to viruses, germs etc. – not continuous administration of vaccines & antibiotics. We are still constantly exposed to bacteria and viruses. We are losing the battle against them – the little buggers keep evolving to deal with everything we chuck at them. Every surface you can see now is covered with microbes and your air is full of them. Your body has as many microbe cells in it as human cells (if you count a virus body as a cell). What we evolved to deal with and what we have to deal with now is bound to be different. Evolution has been a process of change for 4 billion years and Lyell and Darwin assure us that this process will continue long after the last syllable of recorded time. All of which doesn’t throw much light on the pathogenesis of MS. Only time will tell.  It took scientists many decades to realize that our modern lifestyles are the main cause of cardio-pulmonary disease, a number of cancers, diabetes You assume autoimmune diseases are a recent phenomena – you have no evidence for that. We die from different things than people living in non-industrial countries and times but they don’t get the life-expectancy to experiment with our diseases.Betcha wrong. I’m placing my bet that lifestyle will similarly prove to be the underlying cause of autoimmune disease. Betcha wrong! Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Paul, I read carefully your responses and comments. What is the bottom line? Occam’s Razor and looking for the simpler MS reasons for a complex/misunderstood or unknown cause(s) seem incorrectly juxtaposed, if that’s your thesis. No attack infered, just a question. Donn

Response:

Hi Chris, Chris Fincham wrote:

There is a big difference in signs, symptoms and effects – but until ‘ya know absolutely fer shure the cause of each disease, you can’t rule out the possibility that they share the common cause(s) of lifestyle.  The geographic incidence is similar in all of the above disorders – they all occur mostly in folks who live in industrialized countries, in folks who live in other countries which have adopted a (so-called) Western lifestyle, or in folks who move to industrialized countries.

I rather follow a mix of Occam’s razor and evidence-based science. I would prefer to keep the number of relations and entities as few as possible unless there is evidence to support any relationship. It’s impossible to assert that there is no link between modern pollutants and MS. But the asserted link has not been shown to any degree of statistical confidence (and that’s not because nobody has tried).

I think there is always a great deal to be gained by looking at the big picture, as illustrated by (eg) the recent realization that boreal forests are in part fertilized by salmon, or the relatization not too many years ago that presticides sprayed on plants kill birds of prey.

But the number of possible relationships between entities in the universe and MS is infinite. You need evidence (or at least a reasonable hunch) before embarking on a research project. What about a possible link between siamese cats and MS? My late grandfather’s long-case clock? The current configuration of the planets?

The health of every living thing on earth is intimately connected to its environment – and as we’ve royally screwed up our environment, it seems only logical to me that we’ve at the same time royally screwed up our health.

This has great resonance when thinking environmentally and politically. However, just because we are screwing up the world, it doesn’t follow that MS is the result of our screwing it up. We have to think in a more mechanistic fashion in order to explain a complex disease involving very many cells (each of which is the size of a city in terms of complexity, number of proteins and organisional structure). Broad brush assertions don’t have enough scientific rigour. You have to look at a molecular level because the damage is being done at a molecular level. Studies at a molecular level do not imply that industrial pollutants are involved in the pathogenesis of MS. What they do show is that proteins are involved which means something in the biological world. A genetic disposition to MS would also seem to involve otherwise healthy genes of the MHC class II. That means antigen presentation is somehow involved – the process whereby broken down proteins are presented to helper T cells. Somehow people with MS are able to present myelin or myelin-mimicking antigens to helper T cells with anti-myelin T cell receptors. I would hazard that an infectious agent such as EBV, HHV-6 or HSV-1 & -2 is responsable and there is a wealth of laboratory science supporting this. MS is probably autoimmune and the disease mechanism probably involves genes, immune system cells and infectious agents.

Studies show that polluted drinking water contains inflammatory agents, as does polluted air & cigarette smoke, and chemicals in foods…and the folks who drink that water & breath that air etc. showed overproduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines.  Seems like a clear case of cause & effect to me.

Which people? All people? People got sick before the industrial and agricultural revolution. The fight against infectious agents has been made more, not less, difficult by the burgeoning human population enabled by these events. Cigarette smoking causes a massive rise in cytokines associated with neutrophils – white blood cells that are part of the innate immune system. But these are not the same cytokines involved in the Th1 immunity seen in MS. I can’t find ant evidence that it has a great effect on the helper T cells which are the white blood cells implicated in MS. Cigarettes are likely to be linked with asthma than MS though they may effect MS disease course. Smoking prior to MS onset has a relative risk of 1.1 at weak level of significance in one study I read. This jumps to 1.6 after onset (implying it’s not causal). I would argue that people with MS are more likely to smoke because they have MS rather than vice versa. Water certainly contains inflammatory agents – I’ve had bacillic dystentry in Nepal from water so I know – but what specific substances in the water are linked to MS and what is the evidence for that? Same arguments go for food and water.

I think it suggested that inflammatory agents such as polluted air and poor nutrition are causal to raised levels of pro-inflammatory cytokines – and I assume that in genetically predisposed people, asthma results.

But we’re not talking asthma, are we? I thought you were trying to link non-biological pollutants to MS.

"As an aside, inflammation is a highly complex and subtle bodily response. It is highly functional and without it we would die from a whole plethora of diseases – look at AIDS to see how people fare without the ability to produce an inflammatory response. All mammals have it in their arsenal and it has been millions of years in its evolution. To suggest that it is dysfunctional per-se is a nonsense. I’m not suggesting that at all.  I’m saying that our environment has been shown to be full of inflammatory agents in our air, water and food – and deficient in anti-inflammatory agents such as proper nutrition, exercise and low stress levels.

But the fact that it is full of inflammatory agents has not be associated with MS.

We did *not* evolve during millions of years of air & water pollution – that is a recent phenomenon, as is consumption of processed foods containing pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, preservatives, dyes & additives and living in overcrowded conditions.

But MS is not that recent a phenomenon. It was one of the first neurological diseases to be described and there are plenty of suspected cases from before that.

Nor did the human race evolve while sitting in chairs watching TV…and our immune systems evolved with continuous exposure to viruses, germs etc. – not continuous administration of vaccines & antibiotics.

We are still constantly exposed to bacteria and viruses. We are losing the battle against them – the little buggers keep evolving to deal with everything we chuck at them. Every surface you can see now is covered with microbes and your air is full of them. Your body has as many microbe cells in it as human cells (if you count a virus body as a cell). What we evolved to deal with and what we have to deal with now is bound to be different. Evolution has been a process of change for 4 billion years and Lyell and Darwin assure us that this process will continue long after the last syllable of recorded time. All of which doesn’t throw much light on the pathogenesis of MS.

Only time will tell.  It took scientists many decades to realize that our modern lifestyles are the main cause of cardio-pulmonary disease, a number of cancers, diabetes

You assume autoimmune diseases are a recent phenomena – you have no evidence for that. We die from different things than people living in non-industrial countries and times but they don’t get the life-expectancy to experiment with our diseases.Betcha wrong.

I’m placing my bet that lifestyle will similarly prove to be the underlying cause of autoimmune disease.

Betcha wrong! Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

Rob Duncan wrote:

It may also be that theres another factor altogether responcible for our "over-sensativity" to normal or high-normal levels of pro-inflamatory cytokines.  Genetic in cause.  Or possibly the result of infection.  Such as mycoplasma.  (you could have guessed I suppose)  ;^)

I don’t believe we are over-sensitive to cytokines.

Whatever the case, its obvious cytokines play a role.

Of course they do. MS is an inflammatory disease and cytokines are part and parcel of inflammation.

If its not their over production then its our over sensativity to them.

It’s neither. The problem is that we have a sub-population of CD4+ T Cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin epitopes. This is weakly associated with a number of Major Histocompatibilty Complex Class II genes and raised immune responses to a number of viruses notably four of the seven known Human Herpes viruses – HSV-1, HSV-2, EBV and HHV-6.

Something, even if its not the presense of a pathogens, is causing de-myelination to occur in responce.

Demyelination is a direct response to an anti-myelin immune attack.

Perhaps molecular debris from their past presense?

Rather, the presence of a sub-population memory T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin.

A distorted/defective coating from the same?

Except for one study in Finland on MBP , none of the several studies into myelin genes have reported even a weak association between myelin alelles and MS. We have normal myelin.

SInce MS is not genetic… its something, and there has to be a reason that some myelin is NOT attacked, right next to areas where it IS attacked.

The susceptibility to MS is genetic. The trait is clerly polygenetic and there are several different combinations of *normal* MHC class II alelles involved.

Its not like WBC’s just pour into a hole in the BBB and destroy small areas.  Its more like they have a target and head straight towards it.

Yes, they are recruited by adhesion in the CNS endothelium and are more finely drawn to the site of inflammation by chemokines.

Otherwise we would see diffuse and diminishing damage right next to the breach in the BBB and NOWHERE else. And thats not the case.

This is a puzzle – not just the spatial heterogeneity that you describe but also the temporal heterogeneity. Interestingly, certain types of MRI can detect abnormalities even in normal appearing white matter of people with MS. Furthermore, inflammation is pretty constant during early MS though most fails to produce clinical symptoms.

The WBC’s have a target.  How do they know what to target?

For my money, it’s molecular mimicry: http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/MolecularMimicry.html Take care, Paul All About MS – the latest MS News and Views http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/

Response:

in article dd7bfcc3.0305171557.7d5b4…@posting.google.com, Chris Fincham said:

There is a big difference in signs, symptoms and effects – but until ‘ya know absolutely fer shure the cause of each disease, you can’t rule out the possibility that they share the common cause(s) of lifestyle.

I’m coming in late, so maybe that makes sense in context.  My reaction out of context is that while it’s a true statement, so is "Until you know absolutely the ingredients of two cans of soup, you can’t rule out the possibility that they’re both tomato." The statement is not logically assailable — but that’s because it really just says almost the same thing twice and puts a "maybe equals" sign between them. Which essentially means it says nothing at all. So I don’t see how forming the thought helps anything. Keith http://www.woollymammoth.com/keith

Response:

"Chris Fincham" <cmccub…@sympatico.ca

wrote in message news:dd7bfcc3.0305171557.7d5b4fdf@posting.google.com… Only time will tell.  It took scientists many decades to realize that our modern lifestyles are the main cause of cardio-pulmonary disease, a number of cancers, diabetes – I’m placing my bet that lifestyle will similarly prove to be the underlying cause of autoimmune disease. Chris F  :-)

Right on Chris. I find it interesting that the initial article that started this thread neglected to mention celiac disease with all the other AI diseases cited. Celiac disease is irrefutably caused by a hypersensitivity to a well known environmental factor, that of gluten. What differentiates CD from its brethren? Is it so unfathomable that other AI conditions could also result from reactions to such proteins as gluten, dairy, legumes, etc.? Here is something to consider should one want to suppress pro-inflammatory cytokines ………without the risks of serious infection, cancer or  even other immune diseases caused by the shift in immune strategy – e.g. Th1 to Th2. There are a number of experimental studies with mice and rats which are genetically susceptible to animal forms of autoimmune disease such as EAE (closely resembles MS). These studies showed that injections of vitamin D hormone could protect against or arrest the animal forms of MS (Lemire and Archer, 1991; Cantorna et al, 1996), type 1 diabetes (Mathieu et al, 1994), rheumatoid arthritis (Cantorna et al, 1998a) and lupus (Lemire et al, 1992). Furthermore, immunological analyses done in conjunction with these experiments revealed the following immune-regulating actions for vitamin D hormone:   1.. Suppresses antibody production by B cells and the proliferation of T cells in the thymus (Yang et al, 1993).   2.. Upregulates cytokines TGF-beta and IL-4. These proteins, which are produced by immune cells, act as suppressants of inflammatory T cells (Cantorna et al, 1998b).   3.. Inhibits production of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-1, IL-2, TNF and IFN gamma (Muller and Bendtzen, 1996) which also reduces inflamammatory reactions.   4.. Interferes with T helper function and inhibits the passive transfer of cellular immunity by Th in vivo (Thomasset, 1994)   5.. Inhibits the production of NO (nitric oxide) by immune cells (Garrion et al, 1997). NO has been identified as one of the most destructive products of the immune system and is an important factor in demyelination.   6.. Inhibits the proliferation of activated and memory T cells (Muller and Bendtzen, 1992). Such cells are the main mediators of the inflammatory autoimmune reactions of MS.   7.. Exerts immunomodulating effects in the CNS by inducing a profound downregulation of antigen expression by both infiltrating and resident antigen presenting cells (e.g. macrophages) (Nataf et al, 1996). Cheers Nick

Response:

Paul wrote:

"Hi Chris, There is a big difference between allergic diseases like asthma, eczema and migraine and autoimmune diseases like MS, RA and Type 1 diabetes. In allergic diseases the body overreacts to foreign proteins such as pollen, dust mite detritus and certain dietary substances – NON-SELF. In autoimmune diseases the immune system attacks self-proteins such as myelin and connective tissues – SELF." Hi backatcha’ Paul. There is a big difference in signs, symptoms and effects – but until ‘ya know absolutely fer shure the cause of each disease, you can’t rule out the possibility that they share the common cause(s) of lifestyle.  The geographic incidence is similar in all of the above disorders – they all occur mostly in folks who live in industrialized countries, in folks who live in other countries which have adopted a (so-called) Western lifestyle, or in folks who move to industrialized countries. "Although both groups of diseases have a partially genetic contribution and involve immflammation, the similarity really ends there. I don’t believe there is much to be gained by comparing them." I think there is always a great deal to be gained by looking at the big picture, as illustrated by (eg) the recent realization that boreal forests are in part fertilized by salmon, or the relatization not too many years ago that presticides sprayed on plants kill birds of prey. The health of every living thing on earth is intimately connected to its environment – and as we’ve royally screwed up our environment, it seems only logical to me that we’ve at the same time royally screwed up our health. "The release of pro-inflammatory cytokines is implicit to inflammation – i.e. you can’t have one without the other. Observing that pro-inflammatory cytokine levels are raised in inflammatory diseases is analogous to observing that blood is often found on the ground near people who have been shot. No one would claim that the release of excess blood was in any way causal though, continuing the analogy, stemming bloodflow may help to save someone’s life." Studies show that polluted drinking water contains inflammatory agents, as does polluted air & cigarette smoke, and chemicals in foods…and the folks who drink that water & breath that air etc. showed overproduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines.  Seems like a clear case of cause & effect to me. "In any event, I don’t think the abstract that you quote is suggesting that raised cytokine and leukotriene levels are causal to asthma. Furthermore, the article suggests dietary modifications to control asthma." I think it suggested that inflammatory agents such as polluted air and poor nutrition are causal to raised levels of pro-inflammatory cytokines – and I assume that in genetically predisposed people, asthma results.  The benefits of the suggested dietary modifications are not specific to asthma, they are a component of a healthy diet for the average person. "As an aside, inflammation is a highly complex and subtle bodily response. It is highly functional and without it we would die from a whole plethora of diseases – look at AIDS to see how people fare without the ability to produce an inflammatory response. All mammals have it in their arsenal and it has been millions of years in its evolution. To suggest that it is dysfunctional per-se is a nonsense. I’m not suggesting that at all.  I’m saying that our environment has been shown to be full of inflammatory agents in our air, water and food – and deficient in anti-inflammatory agents such as proper nutrition, exercise and low stress levels. We did *not* evolve during millions of years of air & water pollution – that is a recent phenomenon, as is consumption of processed foods containing pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, preservatives, dyes & additives and living in overcrowded conditions.  Nor did the human race evolve while sitting in chairs watching TV…and our immune systems evolved with continuous exposure to viruses, germs etc. – not continuous administration of vaccines & antibiotics. "autoimmune diseases, we are looking at specific instances of mis-directed inflammation. People with MS are often otherwise healthy and able to finely control their immune responses outside of the central nervous system. If we could remove the sub-population of helper T cells that are immuno-reactive to myelin proteins from people with MS, I believe that, with the exception of Wallerian degeneration, all disease activity would cease. Our cytokine responses would then be considered normal." Only time will tell.  It took scientists many decades to realize that our modern lifestyles are the main cause of cardio-pulmonary disease, a number of cancers, diabetes – I’m placing my bet that lifestyle will similarly prove to be the underlying cause of autoimmune disease. Chris F  :-)

Response:

Paul wrote:

"The deeper (and for me better) level is to address the underlying cause of the inflammtion rather than reduce the effects of the cytokines that are released once it’s started. Doing that may be more radical for the immune system and even life-threatening but it could be a single event rather than permanent therapy." Well, I’ve just scanned a few more studies – A study of drinking water showed that inflammatory agents in the polluted water provoked a pro-inflammatory cytokine response in humans.  Air pollution has been shown to do the same thing, as does cigarette smoking and exposure to chemicals. Antioxidants and other good things which are found in healthy foods have been found to stimulate production of anti-inflammatory cytokines, as does exercise and a positive mental attitude. So how about this theory? Lack of exposure to normal childhood diseases, germs and bugs leaves us with immune systems which never develop properly. Then, from the day we’re born, our polluted environments stimulate overproduction of pro-inflammatory cytokines – while our unhealthy lifestyle habits deprive us of the anti-inflammatory effects of nutritious foods and daily exercise…as does the learned helpless and other stressors inherent in highly-industrialized societies which predispose us to depression (= more pro-inflammatory cytokines). The end result is that you have a whole heck of a lot of sick people with screwed-up immune systems, their specific illness being dependent on genetic predisposition. Chris F

Response:

————————————————————————— – —-  Immunology Emerges as Dominant Force in Revolutionizing the Fight Against Immune-Mediated Inflammatory Disorders (I.M.I.D.) I.M.I.D. Key Topic at American Association of Immunologists Meeting in Denver, May 6-10 http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/stor… May 7, 2003 PRNewswire Source: Centocor Denver A growing consensus among doctors and scientists that seemingly unrelated diseases actually share common pathways will be a key topic for the nearly 3,500 scientists and medical researchers meeting in Denver this week for the American Association of Immunologists meeting.  This extraordinary new scientific paradigm, known as Immune-Mediated Inflammatory Disorders (I.M.I.D.), has sparked the creation of dozens of targeted research centers across the country and will dramatically change the way many diseases and disorders are studied. "Chronic diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus, Crohn’s disease, psoriasis, multiple sclerosis, type 1 diabetes and many others continue to devastate individuals and families.  The research the centers are conducting on I.M.I.D. is going to play an important role in how we think about and treat these diseases," said Brian Kotzin, M.D., Co- Head, Division of Clinical Immunology at the University of Colorado Health Science Center in Denver.  "It is clear that common mechanisms of inflammation and similarities in the abnormal immune responses will greatly advance the fight against these diseases." Nearly 3,500 medical professionals will convene at the 90th Anniversary Meeting of the American Association of Immunologists in Denver, Colorado this week.  The meeting will include an I.M.I.D. symposium entitled "Cytokine-based Immunotherapy: Turning On and Off Inflammation and Disease," from 12:30-2:30 p.m. MT, May 7, 2003, at the Colorado Convention Center. "This symposium is a great opportunity to learn from what has been accomplished so far in identifying common molecular pathways of seemingly unrelated diseases, such as psoriasis, Crohn’s disease, rheumatoid arthritis," said Don Griswold, Senior Director of Immunobiology Research at Centocor.  "It is an opportunity to garner the interest and the participation of leading researchers as we work to expand I.M.I.D. research." The I.M.I.D. initiative is inspired by advances in the medical community’s increasing knowledge of immunology and the pivotal role of inflammation in disease and the immune system.  Approximately 50 million Americans suffer from a disease related to the immune system.  Currently, key academic institutions around the globe are beginning to work together to advance research and treatment of I.M.I.D.  Centocor, a leader in I.M.I.D. research, supports the work of both the American Association of Immunologists and the Federation of Clinical Immunology Societies in this area. Overview of I.M.I.D. The Immune-Mediated Inflammatory Disorders (I.M.I.D.) is a group of diseases characterized by immune dysregulation, chronic inflammation, and tissue damage.  Many disorders fall under the I.M.I.D. umbrella, including rheumatoid arthritis (RA), Crohn’s disease, psoriasis, multiple sclerosis, Type 1 diabetes, among others.  In total, they affect millions of people worldwide, causing significant morbidity, premature disability, and have significant economic consequences for patients, their families and society. Although much progress has been made scientifically and clinically in understanding these disorders, their pathogenesis remains to be fully elucidated. Current thinking suggests that although each I.M.I.D. may be manifested differently, they share some common molecular pathways caused by the body producing inappropriate or excessive amounts of chemical messengers called cytokines.  Nevertheless, more basic and clinical research are needed to more completely define how, when, and where cytokines contribute to disease processes.  This research is ongoing thanks in part to Centocor’s support. About Centocor Centocor is a leading biopharmaceutical company that creates, acquires and markets cost-effective therapies that yield long-term benefits for patients and the healthcare community.  The company is dedicated to the research and development of treatments for a wide range of Immune-Mediated Inflammatory Disorders (I.M.I.D.), such as arthritis, inflammatory skin diseases and cancer.  Centocor’s products, developed primarily through monoclonal antibody technology, help physicians deliver innovative treatments to improve human health and restore patients’ quality of life.  Centocor is a wholly owned subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson, the worldwide manufacturer of healthcare products. Copyright

Question:

"After contracting measles and other childhood illnesses (e.g.. chickenpox, scarlet fever, whooping cough, rubella, mumps and may be others), it has been widely accepted by many health practitioners, including experienced orthodox paediatricians that this is often beneficial for the general health of many children. Specifically it has been shown that children contracting measles naturally were less likely to suffer from allergic conditions such as asthma, eczema and hayfever, (Lancer June 29 1996)."—Trevor Gunn BSc Correction: the SURVIVORS might be healthier.

Question:

Even you, Roger, must be aware of John’s claims about measles deaths going away before vaccination came along. If you need a reminder, see the thread with the grown-up title "Bowshit".

Yes, and I saw your message agreeing with him. What’s your point?

Response:

The only rationale for reducing incidence is to reduce the death rate

No kook.  It’s to reduce the level of suffereing from all related causes to less than that caused by the vaccine. (and disability rate which I assume is tied into death rate).

You assume wrong. erf

Response:

Deaths from measles declined dramatically in the 60 years preceding the introduction of the measles vaccine. Happy now? Now please explain what this has to do with the effectiveness of the vaccine in reducing the number of cases of measles.

We all know DEATHS is the whole rationale for reducing incidence and you go on about deaths on your page here http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/measlesdeaths.htm You: 306880 children have died of measles somewhere in the world since 1 January, 2002. and you infer that vaccination is going to save them all when the evidence from the first world is that vaccination didn’t save our kids from measles deaths, and at the most can only have had an effect on .6% of measles deaths. And vaccinating malnourished vitamin C deficient children can be dangerous, in one vaccine campaign in Australia with 3rd world children 50% died, according to a medical doctor who was there, so your claim that we are liars You: The number of dots on this page is approximately the same as the number of children who die each year from measles*. Anti-vaccination liars would tell us that measles is harmless and the vaccine is very dangerous. Tell that to the parents of the two children who die every minute. Tell that to a medical doctor who has spent 40 years working among third worl children.  And tell that to the thousands of parents with vaccine autistic children. john "forced me to look into the question of vaccination further, and the further I looked the more shocked I became. I found that the whole vaccine business was indeed a gigantic hoax. Most doctors are convinced that they are useful, but if you look at the proper statistics and study the instances of these diseases you will realize that this is not so . . .         My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business [medicine] is that the unofficial policy of the World Health Organization and the unoffical policy of the ‘Save the Children’s Fund’ and … [other vaccine promoting] organizations is one of murder and genocide. . . . I cannot see any other possible explanation. . . . You cannot immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect to get away with it. You’ll kill far more children than would have died from natural infection."–Dr Kalokerinos (International Vaccine Newsletter June 1995) "It was similar with the measles vaccination. They went through Africa, South America and elsewhere, and vaccinated sick and starving children…They thought they were wiping out measles, but most of those susceptible to measles died from some other disease that they developed as a result of being vaccinated. The vaccination reduced their immune levels and acted like an infection. Many got septicaemia, gastro-enteritis, etcetera, or made their nutritional status worse and they died from malnutrition. So there were very few susceptible infants left alive to get measles. It’s one way to get good statistics, kill all those that are susceptible, which is what they literally did." –Dr Kalokerinos, M.D. http://www.whale.to/m/kalokerinos9.html

Response:

  I even showed the graphs, where the deaths were dropping because of better supportive care, and declined DRAMATICALLY after the introduction of sulfonamides and penicillin (especially penicillins).  

Don’t forget oxygen for the secondary pneumonia.  Introduced in the 1930s, this made a huge difference. — | It’s the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance  | |  It’s the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance  | |   It’s the one who won’t be taken who cannot seem to give     | |    and the soul afraid of dyin’ that never learns to live     |

Response:

"After contracting measles and other childhood illnesses (e.g.. chickenpox, scarlet fever, whooping cough, rubella, mumps and may be others), it has been widely accepted by many health practitioners, including experienced orthodox paediatricians that this is often beneficial for the general health of many children. Specifically it has been shown that children contracting measles naturally were less likely to suffer from allergic conditions such as asthma, eczema and hayfever, (Lancer June 29 1996)."—Trevor Gunn BSc Correction: the SURVIVORS might be healthier.

Question:

hiya all, Eric you state Steroids caused your depression :- Prednisone, dose that turn to steroids after it enters your body? did you use it for bodybuilding? dam’it thx  Graham

Response:

hiya all, Eric you state Steroids caused your depression :- Prednisone, dose that turn to steroids after it enters your body? did you use it for bodybuilding? dam’it thx  Graham

I can not speak for Eric, but Prednisone was prescribed to me for congested bronchi tubes, It made me way manic, hmmmmm maybe _that’s_ what started it all. "White coats and needles,Johnny like to scare you to death." —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -hiya all, Eric you state Steroids caused your depression :- Prednisone, dose that turn to steroids after it enters your body? did you use it for bodybuilding? dam’it thx  Graham

My slip into clinical depression was indeed caused by prednisone. And no prednisone is in no way the kind of anabolic steroid used to build muscle. You are thinking of another kind of steroid entirely. Prednisone is whats known as a "corticosteroid" and corticosteroids do not build muscle at all, in fact they tear down muscle, they are whats known as "catabolic." Corticosteroids include most of the kinds of steroids prescribed by medical doctors. This includes all forms of prednisone, cortisone and all of the various topical nasal steroid sprays and asthma inhalers….all are corticosteroids and not of the anabolic type steroids you are thinking of. I had a bad experience with prednisone. Im not saying that most people will experience what I developed, but it does happen. Corticosteroids have been known to induce nasty mood disorders, mania and sometimes even psychosis. Needless to say I have a low personal opinion of indiscriminantly prescribed prednisone, such as the common practice of giving it for every ache and pain as is so common with GP docs. Eric Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

I can not speak for Eric, but Prednisone was prescribed to me for congested bronchi tubes, It made me way manic, hmmmmm maybe _that’s_ what started it all. "White coats and needles,Johnny like to scare you to death."

I wouldnt be surprised at all. Prednisone can induce mania and also psychosis. Its rare, but it occurs sometimes with prednisone use. I heard about a well respected psychiatrist at one of the teaching hospitals I have used who had to be put on lithium and the whole nine yards after some prednisone he was put on induced a severe wild mania. Really fucked the guy up and he was a psychiatrist on top of it all. Eric Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FactsAndFallaciesOfDepression MIBS (Minimally Invasive Brain Stimulation) http://www.musc.edu/psychiatry/fnrd/tms.htm

Response:

The mold and pollens in the air we breathe.

Response:

The mold and pollens in the air we breathe.

That’s not entirely true.  There are a million and one things you can do to at least reduce the number of allergens in the air.  They aren’t totally avoidable, but there is significant evidence the allergens can be reduced in the air with breathe.  If you take control of your environment, I’m sure it will help your daughter out also.  Get a humidity gage (keep it between 40-50%), a HEPA air cleaner, and some great mold killer-stuff, and try to control at least the amount in the air she breathes.   It may not control the situation, but it can help out a lot! Good Luck- Ashleigh http://www.angelfire.com/tn/Ashleigh1976/index.html

Response:

I have a bunch of allergys that are unavoidable,i.e.  my neighbors out door cooking, comes thru the house vents.  anyone that wears certain makeup and perfumes, can just pass by me in a store, and I have had it. refrigeration units and produce counters and meat cases in a grocery store, my husband does most shopping but some times I have to go and it just takes a few minutes and bang. six o’clock traffic is a real problem for me where I live, thats the reason I am trying to sell my house, anyitem from a garage, kereoscene, gasoline etc.  cleaning agents in the two hospitals in this town, when I go for lab work I usually have problems.,seems like all cleaners get me,  I cannot think of any thingnew that is dyed that I can stand, The list goes on and on, let alone all the red dyes in food, yellow dyes in food anf bacon, cooking oils, and it all started with popcorn, years ago and grew and grew. forgot plastics too.  Any way, its a great life.  frannymae Nothing ventured,  nothing gained; http://community.webtv.net/frannymae/FRANSHOME

Response:

Many of her allergies are to things she cannot avoid.  She was retested last Oct., but only took a couple of injections from each vial,but seemed to have more problems, so we dced them for a while. Would like to restart them, however she hasn’t been clear in months. Her allergist insists that on the amount of meds she is on, she should not be reacting to allergies like this, and there is an outside problem. I have convinced him to retest for food allergies.  Who knows??

Response:

Many of her allergies are to things she cannot avoid.

What kind of allergies are unavoidable?   Ash http://www.angelfire.com/tn/Ashleigh1976/index.html

Response:

I was wondering if your body actually gets to where it needs a higher dose of steroids(medrol) to get the same benefit it once did for asthma.   My daughter cannot get to a low maintenance dose and remain there. She has been up and down for months. We finally had her on 8mg of medrol every other day.  She had been on it for a little over a week when her asthma flared up and she was back up to 48 mg for 3 days and is graduating down. They initially upped her dose to 16 a day, but that just seemed to slow down the progression of the disease. # days later she was almost in the hospital.

This pattern suggests that your daughter is receiving continuing exposure to a trigger.  How have you changed her environment to minimize exposure? Chris Owens

Response:

I was wondering if your body actually gets to where it needs a higher dose of steroids(medrol) to get the same benefit it once did for asthma.   My daughter cannot get to a low maintenance dose and remain there. She has been up and down for months. We finally had her on 8mg of medrol every other day.  She had been on it for a little over a week when her asthma flared up and she was back up to 48 mg for 3 days and is graduating down. They initially upped her dose to 16 a day, but that just seemed to slow down the progression of the disease. # days later she was almost in the hospital.

Response:

Hello This is our first time reacting to this ng. Our daughter who is 4 yrs old has been diagnosed as having asthma. We are UK residents and as such are subject to the secrecy of the UK medical services in regard to drug prescription. Jimmy Blair Their is one very useful publication,namely the:- British Medical

Association New Guide To Medicines and Drugs. Published by Dorling Kindersley. I find it a god send as I have coronary artery disease and "Cardiac Athsma and so am on a lot of drugs. I have also got the "Dr Schuelers medical advisor (UK) V2.0 which is a 2 CD rom from Health Perfect Ltd, EBC House, Townsend Lane London NW9 8LL 0181 200 8897 which I find very useful as you can do drug inter reaction checks as well as check out symptoms etc plus it has a very comprehensive drugs list giving full details on what the drug does, any side effects, any drugs it reacts with and what the effect of that interreaction may be

Response:

:Hello :This is our first time reacting to this ng. :Our daughter who is 4 yrs old has been diagnosed as having asthma. :We are UK residents and as such are subject to the secrecy of the UK :medical services in regard to drug prescription. oes anyone know of any harmful or otherwise effects from the following :drugs, becatide and ventolin. :Her asthma is worse when exposed to poor air quality or after excercise. :We live in an area of low urban density and traffic polution is not a :considerably bad factor. :Any advice would be appreciated. I know several children who use these drugs, and I do myself. The main side effect from Becotide is a sore mouth and throat. This can be avoided, or at worse the risk reduced, by using a spacer and washing out the mouth (eg cleaning teeth) immediately afterwards. Pre exercise ventolin (2 puffs) is a good idea. Barry Landy                        Computer Laboratory:+44 1223 334600 University of Cambridge Computing Service Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QG

Response:

I am taking Methyl-Prednisolone for a ruptured disc.  Does anyone know if this can cause hot flashes like symptoms.  I just took one dose (6 day regimine) and I don’t feel good.  Any info is appreciated. Cathy People Helping Others Become Independent Again Panic/Anxiety support Group, NJ

Response:

I am taking Methyl-Prednisolone for a ruptured disc.

I’m not trying to worry you, but be careful with Steroids like Medrol, Prednisone and Cortisone (in its many forms) It has given me a dreadful disease called AVN or "Avascular Necrosis." I’m only 35! Steroids are very potent, but I truly believe they should be a last line of defense. I have  9 disks with problems – most herniated – some bulging (NONE ruptured, thank GOD)  and I am not daring to use any steroids. They’ve already caused a painful "bone death due to lack of blood circulation" in my hips. Be careful. You don’t want AVN! Ask your Doctor about Avascular Necrosis (or Osteonecrosis). I read it strikes 47,000 people every year! Be careful Cathy. Especially if the steroids are causing side effects! Your Friend,

Response:

I am taking Methyl-Prednisolone for a ruptured disc.  Does anyone know if this can cause hot flashes like symptoms.  I just took one dose (6 day regimine) and I don’t feel good.  Any info is appreciated. Cathy

Cathy i found this excellent info about the drug you are taking……hope it answers your questions!! http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/methprd.htm good luck….. Libby

Response:

writes: I am taking Methyl-Prednisolone for a ruptured disc.  Does anyone know if this can cause hot flashes like symptoms.  I just took one dose (6 day regimine) and I don’t feel good.  Any info is appreciated. Cathy

Steroids have many, many side effects…including the one you describe above. I also had this same side effect..including others like..weight gain, acne..bitchy mood.. boy, you name it..I got it..including AVN in both hips requiring two hip replacements at age 39!! Of course, that was after many steroid encounters!! best of luck..and be sure to wean off of them.. Rae

Response:

Steroids have many, many side effects…including the one you describe above. I also had this same side effect..including others like..weight gain, acne..bitchy mood.. boy, you name it..I got it..including AVN in both hips requiring two hip replacements at age 39!! Of course, that was after many steroid encounters!! best of luck..and be sure to wean off of them..

My orthopedist offered  a steroid (cortisone) shot in my left hip where I have some of my pain – I turned him.    But I’ve been thinking about asking if another course of steroid therapy *might* be warranted, except they’re the opposite of cortisone. I figure anabolic steroids would allow the increase in strength that we’ve been trying to attain with physical therapy (to no avail – my insurance company has decided that any further PT beyond the 5 I have remaining, due to lack of progress). I’m curious if anyone else might have been in a situation where this was a possibilty, however vague.  I’m thinking it’s a longshot as docs as as loathe to Rx anabolics as they are opiods – if not moreso. To heck with the fact that it makes sense to me and several friends I’ve discussed it with. — "If you haven’t been there, then shut the hell up!"     –old Army saying

Response:

Hmmm….. I’ve got MS (multiple scherosis.  Do you thik it would work for me? Lynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steroids have many, many side effects…including the one you describe above. I also had this same side effect..including others like..weight gain, acne..bitchy mood.. boy, you name it..I got it..including AVN in both hips requiring two hip replacements at age 39!! Of course, that was after many steroid encounters!! best of luck..and be sure to wean off of them.. My orthopedist offered  a steroid (cortisone) shot in my left hip where I have some of my pain – I turned him.   But I’ve been thinking about asking if another course of steroid therapy *might* be warranted, except they’re the opposite of cortisone. I figure anabolic steroids would allow the increase in strength that we’ve been trying to attain with physical therapy (to no avail – my insurance company has decided that any further PT beyond the 5 I have remaining, due to lack of progress). I’m curious if anyone else might have been in a situation where this was a possibilty, however vague.  I’m thinking it’s a longshot as docs as as loathe to Rx anabolics as they are opiods – if not moreso. To heck with the fact that it makes sense to me and several friends I’ve discussed it with. — "If you haven’t been there, then shut the hell up!"    –old Army saying

Response:

writes: Hmmm….. I’ve got MS (multiple scherosis.  Do you thik it would work for me?

My sister in law has MS too..and she has been given steroids…not the anabolic ones though….Honestly, I am not well read in the condition..so do not know if this is par for the course..or a new treatment…It worked very well for her and sent her into a remission….. My 2 cents! Rae

Response:

The other kind of steriods, not the anabolic, have also worked very well for me – put in remission several times.  Actually, it has always worked to alleviate the MS symptoms.  May not make them all go away, but it fixes what is fixable. Too bad it can do such damage, since it works so great. Lynn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My sister in law has MS too..and she has been given steroids…not the anabolic ones though….Honestly, I am not well read in the condition..so do not know if this is par for the course..or a new treatment…It worked very well for her and sent her into a remission….. My 2 cents! Rae

Response:

I think you’d have to look at what MS is causing within you (your body) and then look at what the various anabolic agents do and see if there is an overlap. I *think* I’ve heard of them being used in casees of people with MS (but my memory’s not so trustworthy as I’d like). I do know that they are effective for people with HIV/AIDS for helping immune system and with fighting the wasting that AIDS can cause. Mention it to your doc. Wouldn’t hurt (least, I don’t think it would). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The other kind of steriods, not the anabolic, have also worked very well for me – put in remission several times.  Actually, it has always worked to alleviate the MS symptoms.  May not make them all go away, but it fixes what is fixable. Too bad it can do such damage, since it works so great. Lynn My sister in law has MS too..and she has been given steroids…not the anabolic ones though….Honestly, I am not well read in the condition..so do not know if this is par for the course..or a new treatment…It worked very well for her and sent her into a remission….. My 2 cents! Rae

– "If you haven’t been there, then shut the hell up!"     –old Army saying

Response:

After 2 weeks of high BGs following my first steroid shot for back pain I got my BGs under control for a month. I had my second shot Thurs. and my BGs are now over 300, even though I’ve tripled my Insulin dose. The worst of it is there is little relief for my back.

I’m sorry Herb, I have nothing to say except to commiserate. I can’t imagine what your pain must be like Jan

Response:

Steroids usually affect Diabetics bg levels.  Mine go up for awhile.  Am still taking them for my back, doc says they will be high even after I quit them, for a while.  Just make sure you are under a doc’s care. Buck — Visit www.diabeticnet.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – After 2 weeks of high BGs following my first steroid shot for back pain I got my BGs under control for a month. I had my second shot Thurs. and my BGs are now over 300, even though I’ve tripled my Insulin dose. The worst of it is there is little relief for my back.

Response:

After 2 weeks of high BGs following my first steroid shot for back pain I got my BGs under control for a month. I had my second shot Thurs. and my BGs are now over 300, even though I’ve tripled my Insulin dose. The worst of it is there is little relief for my back.

Response:

Does anyone know how steroids (the stuff body builders use) would affect the body of someone with psoriasis if it were injected?

Response:

Does anyone know how steroids (the stuff body builders use) would affect the body of someone with psoriasis if it were injected?

Do you mean " anabolites " like Stanazolol or true stroids , like Clobetasol, Traimcinolone etc. ? Dr. Oscar in Italy

Response:

Does anyone know how steroids (the stuff body builders use) would affect the body of someone with psoriasis if it were injected?

Response:

Does anyone know how steroids (the stuff body builders use) would affect the body of someone with psoriasis if it were injected?

Do you mean " anabolites " like Stanazolol or true stroids , like Clobetasol, Traimcinolone etc. ? Dr. Oscar in Italy

Response:

Chris and Kevin thanks for the input, You would think there would be more info on the subject as I think it is the goal of any of us that need it to survive our illness, to one day be free of it or on the lowest possible dose. I may very well have found my indicator and as much as I hate to I will discuss raising the dose… I wonder if increasing it 1 mg at a time would tell me the answer? I am afraid my Dr will have me go back to 10 mg and I have worked so hard to get to 5mg. Cherri

Response:

I have been on high doses of prednisone for years and am now on medications plus I have a colostomy and have been weaned down to 5mg a day. I had hoped to be able to be off of them by the end of the year but my Dr. tells me that when you have been of them for as long as me that your adrenal gland stop working and you have to take a maintenance dose and will need increased dosages during times of stress. I can not find any info on steroid withdrawal  and am now feeling very tired, but cannot sleep and weak and achy? Is this related? Anyone with first hand experience  or knowledge of a site where I can learn more would be appreciated. I thought that I had read where some of you were able to DC prednisone after longterm treatment? Cherri

Response:

I have been on high doses of prednisone for years and am now on medications plus I have a colostomy and have been weaned down to 5mg a day. I had hoped to be able to be off of them by the end of the year but my Dr. tells me that when you have been of them for as long as me that your adrenal gland stop working and you have to take a maintenance dose and will need increased dosages during times of stress.

You can encourage your adrenal gland to start working again, but it can take a long time, esp. if you have grey hair It has taken me two years to get down from 5mg/day to 1mg/day. It is damaging to have a UC flare up; you must avoid this. So if considering trying to drop your dosage you must have a good personal indicator of too-low pred which will warn you it’s too low *before* the UC starts. In my case it’s muscular pains and stiffness. Given that you established such a personal indicator of low steroid, you should aim first to get onto alternate day doses, because the off-day gives the adrenals a kick. Do this by dropping 1mg from an alternate day, and wait at least three weeks to make sure it was a safe drop. Go back up if you notice your indicator worsening. Once you have got down to alternate day dose (one day reduced to zero), you can start dropping the other day. The secret of success is patience, caution, never push it. At the same time take measures to improve your general health: diet, vitamins, exercise. Exercise, just mild exercise like walking for an hour three times a week, can make a big difference. You may temporarily need to increase dose when injured, sick, stressed, etc.. Don’t worry about it. It’s the long haul that matters. Some people find they can only drop their dose down in the summer. I can not find any info on steroid withdrawal  and am now feeling very tired, but cannot sleep and weak and achy? Is this related?

Could be. It’s easy to find out — increase your dose and see if it goes away. If it does, and this is repeatable, you have found your own personal steroid meter with which to control your withdrawal safely. Anyone with first hand experience  or knowledge of a site where I can learn more would be appreciated. I thought that I had read where some of you were able to DC prednisone after longterm treatment? Cherri

I know of no such site. This is simply my own personal scheme cobbled together from scattered bits of advice from newsgroups, doctors, textbooks. It’s working for me, since my consultant said two years ago I probably ought ot take 6mg/daily for the rest of my life, and I’m now safely down to 1mg/day without problems. — School of Artificial Intelligence,     Division of Informatics   Edinburgh University,   5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK <http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/     DoD #205

Response:

My dr is "pushing" for me to start 6mp (I was on/off/on/off it for about a year 3 yrs ago – was scared to take it so I kept stopping and restarting; finally quit all together).  He says I need it to close fistulas; I need something, and guess only alternative to 6mp is surgery??? Looking for input on 6mp.  Both horror and success stories  :) Any info appreciated (about surgery too).   Thanks,  Carla

Response:

I was diagnosed with Crohn’s 16 years ago.  I was on 6-MP for a year also to close fistulas.  I did not have any problems or side effects from it at all.  It was a little scary taking it, but only because of the side effects I heard about.  Just make sure you go to have your blood tested as often as your dr says you should go (I went every 2 weeks).  If it does play games with your blood count, they can catch it quick and take care of it. If you want to know anymore, e-mail me!

Response:

Hello my name is Bonnie.  I will be going on 6MP the middle of June.  I am a little nervous about going on this drug.  Has this drug helped you. What type of blood test do you get every 2 weeks.   Thank You For Your Help. Bonnie

Response:

My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  She is currently

Please dont let them give her those steroids (Prednisone/Cortisone) She is still young , dont mess up her young body. They put me on steroids when I had flare ups, that was 5 yrs ago and  today I am still suffering the side affects. Today I tell my Doctor straight to his face that I dont want those things. I sufferred (and still sufferrring) from osteoporosis, your body picks up all infections easily, and you can become diabetic. I had, kidney,bladder ,eye , throat and ear infections from taking the steriods. This is only half the story.

Response:

My daughter is 12 years old …

hi Addie,         which do you think will have the worse effect on your daughter, the steroids or the continuing attack of ulcerative colitis?  at some point, prednizone becomes the lesser of two evils.  after a while, you and you daughter will be able to define this point more clearly.  When careful diet and medication do not turn the symptoms, it may be better to go ahead and catch it early.         i also take asacol(2 tabs three times daily) and 6mp(75mg) with some nausia.         best of Lord to you.         drew

Response:

Just saw your post. I’m a 47 year old male dx with Crohn’s in 1984; 12 years of prednisone gave me a new hip. I would recommend a short course for immedaite relief, but the only thing that brought me under control was 6-MP. Of course, 18 months is suggested max for it, but I was completely intractable, and the prdenisone did nothing long-term except cause side-effects. If Asacol is not working orally, there are enemas that deliver the Asacol; unpleasant, of course, but I do know several people who used them successfully. Caveat: I have Crohn’s of the small bowel (what’s left of it ) only, not Crohn’s Colitis. Those that I know who do have CC did improve w/ enemas.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<Asacol is coated with a milk product, so will cause distress is lactose intolerant.  Try Pentasa My understanding is that the lactose content is so minimal that one would have to be highly sensitive to have any reaction to the Asacol.  I can’t handle a glass of milk, but I can take 6 Asacol a day.  Just my experience… Peter Crohn’s Disease Web Page http://members.aol.com/bospol/homepage/crohns.htm IBD Book Store http://members.aol.com/bospol/homepage/crohns1/books.htm

FYI 60 mg. of Prednisone contain the same lactose amount as a half of a glass of milk.

Response:

Asacol is coated with a milk product, so will cause distress is lactose intolerant.  Try Pentasa

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  She is currently taking asacol; has been on it for only 10 days; has vomited seven of those days. Im at a complete loss as to allow her to go on steroids.  It doesnt seem, if she cannot hold down her medicine, that the asacol has had a chance to work. The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end… its the last thing I want to do.  Yet she is in the middle of her first flare up, so we do not have the luxury of waiting. This is all new to us and we feel lucky to have a forum like this to ask questions to those of you who have been dealing with it longer.  I plan on reading more posts to better familiarize myself with this NG,  but in the meantime,  any thoughts or observations on steroids,  asacol, or  anything else would be EXTREMELY welcome.

You can tell instantly you are new to the whole Crohns Colitis thing. I was diagnosed at the age of 9 and am 13 right now.  I have been on steroids and verious other mediactions on and off for that time. Steroids are not nearly the worst thing I could think of being on…there are other worse treatments. Please email me for more info.

Response:

<<Asacol is coated with a milk product, so will cause distress is lactose intolerant.  Try Pentasa My understanding is that the lactose content is so minimal that one would have to be highly sensitive to have any reaction to the Asacol.  I can’t handle a glass of milk, but I can take 6 Asacol a day.  Just my experience… Peter Crohn’s Disease Web Page http://members.aol.com/bospol/homepage/crohns.htm IBD Book Store http://members.aol.com/bospol/homepage/crohns1/books.htm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  She is currently taking asacol; has been on it for only 10 days; has vomited seven of those days. Im at a complete loss as to allow her to go on steroids.  It doesnt seem, if she cannot hold down her medicine, that the asacol has had a chance to work. The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end… its the last thing I want to do.  Yet she is in the middle of her first flare up, so we do not have the luxury of waiting. This is all new to us and we feel lucky to have a forum like this to ask questions to those of you who have been dealing with it longer.  I plan on reading more posts to better familiarize myself with this NG,  but in the meantime,  any thoughts or observations on steroids,  asacol, or anything else would be EXTREMELY welcome.       thanks,   Addie  

As a child, I took various medications to try and control my Crohn’s but prednisone is the only one that really helped.  I was on and off of it throughout my pre-teen and teenage years.  The side effects I noticed are mooning of the face and I think it did stunt my growth.  I was really tiny and skinny, and didn’t start menstruating until I was 16.  My parents tried to avoid it, but it was the only thing that made me feel half-way decent. If you have already explored other medicinal options with no luck, you may want to give it a shot.  Your daughter can always taper off it, and may get away with taking low doses to begin with. Good Luck! Michele

Response:

While I certainly think steroids are appropriate in many instances – and perhaps this one – I didn’t see anything other than the vomiting (which seemed to be linked to the Asacol) that indicated a real urgency that would mandate an immediate solution as drastic as steroids. My daughter was symptomatic for nearly a year (which I guess would have been described as her first flare) before I could get anyone to take my complaints seriously.  While I certainly don’t recommend waiting for a year, I don’t think waiting a couple of weeks extra to evaluate a less drastic treatment would be terribly harmful in most cases unless there are indications that UC is otherwise affecting her health. If the vomiting has only arisen since she started on the Asacol, you might see if the doctor is willing to try a different means of getting the 5-ASA to the gut; one that your daughter might tolerate better.  Pentasa or sulfasalazine are two other 5-ASA drugs. Neither are terribly effective at shutting down a flare, so you might end up on steroids in the end anyway, but Pentasa did work to stop the only flare my daughter has had since stabilizing. If the vomiting predated the Asacol, I agree with Leon.  Drastic and fast is in order. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  <snip The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end… its the last thing I want to do.  Yet she is in the middle of her first flare up, so we do not have the luxury of waiting. This is all new to us and we feel lucky to have a forum like this to ask questions to those of you who have been dealing with it longer.  I plan on reading more posts to better familiarize myself with this NG,  but in the meantime,  any thoughts or observations on steroids,  asacol, or  anything else would be EXTREMELY welcome.       thanks,   Addie   Addie: <snip It really sounds like action must be taken quickly. If that is the case there are few alternatives that will give an immediate response.

Response:

My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids. The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end…

Steroids are a two edged sword. However, a short course to allow her to get over the acute phase she is in might be of great help.  At her age, the metabolic effects added to the blood loss from the colon can cause significant problems (physical and mental development).   A pediatric endocrinologist (try your nearest Medical School) should be able to give you some insight on the effects of such a short course of steriods (and if necessary a longer course).  But, if she is as sick as your post implies, you need to do this quickly. good luck. It doesn’t take all kinds, there simply are all kinds.  Churchill C. L. Waltemath

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  She is currently taking asacol; has been on it for only 10 days; has vomited seven of those days. Im at a complete loss as to allow her to go on steroids.  It doesnt seem, if she cannot hold down her medicine, that the asacol has had a chance to work. The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end… its the last thing I want to do.  Yet she is in the middle of her first flare up, so we do not have the luxury of waiting. This is all new to us and we feel lucky to have a forum like this to ask questions to those of you who have been dealing with it longer.  I plan on reading more posts to better familiarize myself with this NG,  but in the meantime,  any thoughts or observations on steroids,  asacol, or  anything else would be EXTREMELY welcome.       thanks,   Addie  

Addie: Steroids are the quickest way to get the disease under control. There are a lot of side effects and if the drug is only used a short time it is the drug of choice. Nearly everyone here has been on it at one time or another. You should be sure that your daughter’s physician has an exit plan or long-term plan that does not include the use of steroids. The nice feature of steroids is that it could make her feel better within a few days. Vomiting could be a result of blockages or the Asacol. You did not say whether the vomiting coincided with the introduction of Asacol. If you highly object to the use of steroids there are new protocols using immunosuppressants that could bring the disease in remission in as little as 1-2 weeks. It really sounds like action must be taken quickly. If that is the case there are few alternatives that will give an immediate response.

Response:

My daughter is 12 years old and was recently diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. The doctor has recommended we put her on steroids.  She is currently taking asacol; has been on it for only 10 days; has vomited seven of those days. Im at a complete loss as to allow her to go on steroids.  It doesnt seem, if she cannot hold down her medicine, that the asacol has had a chance to work. The thought of giving her steroids troubles me to no end… its the last thing I want to do.  Yet she is in the middle of her first flare up, so we do not have the luxury of waiting. This is all new to us and we feel lucky to have a forum like this to ask questions to those of you who have been dealing with it longer.  I plan on reading more posts to better familiarize myself with this NG,  but in the meantime,  any thoughts or observations on steroids,  asacol, or  anything else would be EXTREMELY welcome.        thanks,   Addie  

Response:

many docs theese days will start w Imuran or remicade and not jump into predisone. talk w your doc re these options.

Response:

If you have begun to take the steroids you should not stop taking them cold turkey.  Talk to your dr about weaning down from them if you really feel you can’t cope with the steroids.  But, as others have said, until the Pentasa kicks in you may need a moderate dose of steroids for a short period of time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

Steroids do have side effects thats no lie but you won’t get all of them, they do wear of as you come of them and they will help you get under control quick. When first diagnosed I was on them for nearly a year with the first doses by drip in a hospital bed. But as you come of the side effects wear off the weight drops off and you may get put on another drug like azathioprine to help your body deal with its dependancy. Steroids are deamed very bad but having tried most of  the alternative drugs out there they work for me. Be strong and persevere its not an easy ride but it will get better once you start to find drugs that works and foods that agrivate. Paul

Response:

Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm.

Welcome to the group.  You already got some good responses so the only thing I wanted to add is that I’ve found I have to be responsible for my health and that I can’t count on my doctor.  I’ve researched all the medicines and I ask lots of questions when I see the doctor.  My doc wanted to give me Entocort, which is safer than Prednisone but still a steroid nonetheless and I insisted on taking Methotrexate (much safer).  So take some time to research with Google and read up all you can, http://www.ccfa.org is a great resource.  Then discuss your options with your doctor.  I’ll give you a head start, look up: Methotrexate 6MP and Imuran (same drug in slightly different forms) Entocort Then you’ll be able to take a very active role in your health care. Michael

Response:

Karen, Steroids should not be to much of a problem if used for a very short period of time (about one or two months), and in some cases they can induce a lasting remission. The problem starts when you flare up as soon as you come off. Then the docs put you back on them, and all of a sudden you have been on them for 2 years, and you have some of the more nasty side effects. I would talk to your docotor about your concerns. Perhaps you will agree to take them for a short period of time if there is a good plan. Otherwise if it is available in Ireland you could ask for Entocort EC. It is a steroid, but it a special pill that relases in the lower small and large intestine. It acts locally and very little steroid is absorbed in the blood stream and then it is rapidly broken down by the body. It is similar to the nasal steriod sprays used for alergies, or the inhaled steroids used in asthma. Side effects are much more rare than other steroids used for Crohn’s. If you do re-flare after a course of steroids you should ask about taking a immunomodulator like 6-mp or azathioprine. If you are having a flare right now and the Pentasa is not controlling it, then you are asking for trouble if you don’t do something. The disease could progress to the point where you end up in the hospital. Good Luck, Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

Some of the alternatives to prednisone can lead to such things as liver failure and other delightful things.  Talk your concerns over with your doctor. Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland If you’re doctor prescribed you a dosage of steroids then you should take them.  Almost all the side effects are short term and are reversible as the dose is lowered.  Since we don’t know how severe your Crohn’s is, pentasa may or may not be enough to get you into remission. Pentasa though is a maintenance drug, meaning it is used to maintain remission after corticosteroids(steroids) have been stopped but it not as effective for more severe cases of disease. There is unfortunately no alternative to corticosteroids when it comes to inducing a quick remission.  Virtually all the drugs used in Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis take time to work, most often in conjunction with corticosteroids.    Also Inflammatory bowel disease is not something you want to want to play a wait and see game with, it’s serious stuff.

Response:

You didn’t say your dosage of the steroid and for how long.  This makes a different.  You don’t want this to be for long term but even with the side effects it will get rid of the inflamation faster and give the pentasa a chance to work.  It took me time for the Pentasa show any difference.  You don’t want to cause more damage to your insides if you can prevent it.  If you have any doubts I suggest you call you gi asap and ask him if it is important for you to take the steroid and if there is anything you can do to help with some of the side effects, like sleep.   If it were I, I would do as dr ordered.  But you have to make your own decision on this and that is why you need more info from your gi so you know why he/she gave it to you. UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

If you’re doctor prescribed you a dosage of steroids then you should take them.  Almost all the side effects are short term and are reversible as the dose is lowered.  Since we don’t know how severe your Crohn’s is, pentasa may or may not be enough to get you into remission. Pentasa though is a maintenance drug, meaning it is used to maintain remission after corticosteroids(steroids) have been stopped but it not as effective for more severe cases of disease. There is unfortunately no alternative to corticosteroids when it comes to inducing a quick remission.  Virtually all the drugs used in Crohn’s and ulcerative colitis take time to work, most often in conjunction with corticosteroids.    Also Inflammatory bowel disease is not something you want to want to play a wait and see game with, it’s serious stuff.

Response:

Hi Karen, Welcome to the group. You’ll find it a fantastic source of information and support (I have). I have just been prescribed steroids (prednisolone) again. Yes, they do have side effects, but if your doctor has prescribed them he or she must have felt that you needed them.  Perhaps you could discuss your concerns with the doctor or the pharmacist who dispensed them to you. The side effects I experienced were acne, weight gain (which wasn’t a bad thing for me!), bloating of my face and stomach, increased appetite, increased facial hair (which was only while I was on a high dose), and possibly loss of bone density. Remember to increase your calcium intake to guard against this – I can’t tolerate dairy but have been taking calcium pills (1200mg/day). Although unpleasant, these side effects were preferable to passing large amounts of blood 20 times a day while my ulcerative colitis was out of control. Also, I found it harder to get to sleep at night while on a high dose, but still found that I had a lot of energy even on only a few hours sleep. Remember, even though all known side effects have to be provided in the information sheet, it doesn’t mean you will experience all of them!  There is an alternative to prednisolone called budesonide (entocort), which is targetted to a certain area of the small bowel which supposedly reaches less of the body so side effects can be less. It is not suitable for everyone with IBD, but it might be worth asking your doctor if this would be appropriate for you. I’m sure you will receive a lot of replies to your message! Take care, Amy UC Melbourne, Australia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

hi karen: yes, there are alternatives.  there are other immunodulators that you would likely be better off with.  the pentasa is good if you are inflamed.  i think just taking the pentasa, you will be better off possibly, but getting the cd under control is vital.  pentasa may or may not do it.  often it is used in conjunction with other meds.  what about remicade, have you considered that? i have taken pentasa, it is on my "emergency list" of meds along with levbid, immodium and a few others.  as ongoing treatment, my autoimmunity is being contolled by low dose weekly injection methotrexate, plaquinel and remicade every 8 weeks.  i think your doctor needs to get more into your treatment, prednesone is not first line of defense treatment any more.  how much did he prescribe?  if it knocks out the inflammation for the time being until you think about other treatments, the side effects are bearable.  i was on 120mg a little over a year ago, talk about side effects…let me tell’ya!!!  e-mail me anytime. jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Just wanted to ask a quick question about steroids.I was diagnosed with Crohn’s yesterday (May 26) and the doc gave me steroids. But when I read the leaflet I was horrified at all the side effects so I’ve decided not to take them, just to take the Pentasa which was also prescribed for me. Can anyone tell me if there’s an alternative to steroids that don’t have the side effects. Also, if I just take the Pentasa and dont’ take the steroids, am I doing myself any harm. Thanks Karen Dublin, Ireland

Response:

I have heard that Robitussin DM has a small amoung of steroid in it, what other over the counter medications also have steroids in them? Does anybody know?  

Response:

For specifics if you GOOGLE you will find a fair amount of product listings that contain steroids. In general if you are trying to avoid steroids check any sinus medication you are purchasing as it seems to show up in these quite frequently. johnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard that Robitussin DM has a small amoung of steroid in it, what other over the counter medications also have steroids in them? Does anybody know?

Response:

I would appreciate any information possible on steroids.

Response:

Steroids The sleaziest of drugs Steroids are fast catching up with antibiotics as the most abused class of drugs in your doctor’s black bag. There’s no doubt that the discovery of steroids a half century ago was a major advance in medicine-a life-saver for those like the late President John F Kennedy, who suffered from Addison’s disease, a disease of the adrenal glands causing insufficient hormone production. Steroids mimic the action of the adrenal glands, the body’s most powerful regulator of general metabolism. John Stirling, director of the vitamin company Biocare, credits a very short course (three injections) of steroids with jump-starting his failing adrenal system after anaphylactic shock and saving his life. The problem is, like antibiotics, steroids appear to be a miracle ‘cure’. Patients with crippling arthritis or asthma seem to be instantly better on steroids. The wheeze, the swelling, the pain go away. So doctors turn to steroids as the first, rather than last, line of attack for their anti-inflammatory and anti-allergic effects. As with antibiotics, what was once reserved for the extreme emergency is now being used on the most trivial of conditions. Steroids are now handed out as readily as antibiotics, even to babies, at the first sign of inflammation of any sort. The latest drug set to replace gripe water for babies with croup is a steroid (budesonide); hydrocortisone is included in the latest over-the-counter medication for piles. Steroids make up many OTC skin drugs, and are considered the drug of choice for asthma, eczema, arthritis, back problems, bowel problems like ulcerative colitis-indeed, for any and all inflammations or allergic reactions-and new uses are still being invented. The sole exceptionis Addison’s Disease, where steroids act as a replacement therapy of cortisone, much as insulin is given to diabetics. Far from being a wonder drug ‘cure all’, steroids cannot cure one single condition. All they do is suppress your body’s ability to express a normal response. In a few instances, this type of suppression will give the body a chance to heal itself. But more often, the effect is immediate, devastating and permanent damage. And we are only now realizing just how quickly damage can occur. Despite what doctors say, that steroids only have side effects after many years of use, there is no such thing as a safe dose. Studies show that steroids cause permanent, debilitating effects after a single dosage. ‘Steroids are probably the most sleazy of modern day medications,’ says John Mills, former professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco and chief of infectious diseases at San Francisco General Hospital. ……. CONTINUED..WHAT DOCTORS DON’T TELL YOU, VOLUME 7 NUMBER 2, MAY 1996. Long-term damage: quick and dirty Steroids don’t take years to damage your system, as doctors maintain. Permanent, crippling damage can occur weeks after you’ve begun treatment. Osteoporosis can occur within a matter of months. Steroids cause 8 per cent reduction in bone mass after four months (Ann Int Med, November 15, 1993), the equivalent of the effect on your bones of having your ovaries removed. Even low doses of inhaled steroids (400 micrograms per day) reduce bone formation (The Lancet, July 6, 1991). Low doses (10-15 mg prednisone) for a year can cause cataracts (Surv Ophthalmol, 1986; 31: 260-2). Topical steroids may begin to cause eye damage or raise pressure after two weeks. Extensive visual loss can be caused by a 1 per cent hydrocortisone ointment, which is available OTC (BMJ, August 20-27, 1994). Rub-on steroids have caused Cushing’s syndrome in children as soon as a month after treatment has begun (Arch Dis Child, 1982; 57: 204-7).  Inhaled steroids slowth growth in children after six weeks (Acta Ped, 1993; 82: 636-40. See also, The Lancet, December 14, 1991). Sudden death on steroids Steroids, even in low doses, can kill or maim. The common thread in the following cases was that the drugs weren’t used for long periods but had a swift and devastating effect. Steroids gave James Hart osteoporosis in three months and killed him inside of one year. In July 1994, James Hart was diagnosed as having fibrosing alveolitis, a lung disease. A body-dye scan at the time showed that he was otherwise healthy, with every other organ besides the lung in good shape. Up until that spring, he’d been a keen golfer, playing a full round twice a week. He was given oxygen therapy at home, plus 12 tablets of 5 mg of prednisolone per day. The drug was intended to give his body a boost, to help him gain weight. Within a month, however, James’s weight increased dramatically, bloating out of all proportion. His skin became very thin and his arms and hands were discoloured purple, bruising at the slightest touch. Although the steroids weren’t alleviating the lung problem to any degree, and the dosage was halved within a month, James suffered terrible mood swings, and soon developed a misshapen neck and back, usually termed buffalo hump, a well-known side effect of steroids. Five months after he’d started on steroids,James was crippled and incapacitated, with pain to his back and ribs; eventually, his family discovered he had a broken vertebrae and damaged rib-cage due to osteoporosis. He was no longer able to go to the toilet on his own, and a month later, he’d contracted diabetes and developed a liver problem. By early June 1995 he could no longer eat due to mouth and gum ulcers, which were slow to heal. A month later-exactly a year after he’d started on steroids-James died of liver, pancreatic and kidney failure. When he was dying, his family could not even hold his hands, because it would damage his skin and cause blood vessels to leak. On his death certificate, the lung disease was not considered the major cause of his death. Steroids killed nine-year-old Lexie McConnell after only five and a half weeks. In August 1993, Lexie was diagnosed as having toxoplasmosis. The consultant put her on 80 mg per day of prednisolone. Immediately, she suffered severe side effects-huge weight gain, terrible pains, holes in her tongue and black stools. After nearly a month, at her parents’ pleading, the doctors quickly lowered the dosage to 60 mg, 40 mg, 20 mg. In excruciating pain, Lexie was taken to a hospital, where it was discovered she’d contracted chickenpox. Four days later, she died. A few years later, another eye specialist declared that a simple course of antibiotics could have cleared up her infection.

Response:

<<I want one that leads to norepinephrine in the central nervous system. From what I can recall from my neurology, isn’t NorEpi the negative feedback for dopamine? There are some really good studies out there, so I suggest checking MEDLINE by using the address in my signiature. Good luck! Chiropractic and other medical research studies can be found on MEDLINE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ RPG Greyhawk:  http://members.aol.com/emirikol7——-

Response:

: I understand that if L-Phenylalanine supplements are ingested the : phenylalanine can cross the blood-brain barrier and be converted to dopamine : in the brain.  This conversion process uses vitamin B-6, vitamin C, folic acid : and copper, I think.  However, if there is too much vitamin B-6 (and/or these : other listed compounds) then the conversion to dopamine happens before the : phenylalanine reaches the blood-brain barrier, and the dopamine cannot get : into the brain.  If there is not enough B-6 then the conversion process may : not occur or might only produce a small amount of dopamine. : : My question is, how can someone get a good amount of dopamine into their brain : by taking phenylalanine?  Should they take a certain amount of B-6 and/or some         You can’t.         You’d be far better off to just take L-dopa.         Why do you want more dopamine? What kind of dopamine? emma

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I understand that if L-Phenylalanine supplements are ingested the : phenylalanine can cross the blood-brain barrier and be converted to dopamine : in the brain.  This conversion process uses vitamin B-6, vitamin C, folic acid : and copper, I think.  However, if there is too much vitamin B-6 (and/or these : other listed compounds) then the conversion to dopamine happens before the : phenylalanine reaches the blood-brain barrier, and the dopamine cannot get : into the brain.  If there is not enough B-6 then the conversion process may : not occur or might only produce a small amount of dopamine. : : My question is, how can someone get a good amount of dopamine into their brain : by taking phenylalanine?  Should they take a certain amount of B-6 and/or some    You can’t.    You’d be far better off to just take L-dopa.    Why do you want more dopamine? What kind of dopamine?

I’m trying to do it without needing a doctor’s perscription because its to try it for multiple sclerosis.  Phenylalanine is over-the-counter but L-dopa is not indicated for MS by the FDA. I didn’t know there was more than one kind of dopamine.  What kinds are there? I want one that leads to norepinephrine in the central nervous system. Thanks. Paul

Response:

I understand that if L-Phenylalanine supplements are ingested the phenylalanine can cross the blood-brain barrier and be converted to dopamine in the brain.  This conversion process uses vitamin B-6, vitamin C, folic acid and copper, I think.  However, if there is too much vitamin B-6 (and/or these other listed compounds) then the conversion to dopamine happens before the phenylalanine reaches the blood-brain barrier, and the dopamine cannot get into the brain.  If there is not enough B-6 then the conversion process may not occur or might only produce a small amount of dopamine. My question is, how can someone get a good amount of dopamine into their brain by taking phenylalanine?  Should they take a certain amount of B-6 and/or some of the other listed compounds along with the phenylalanine?  Should they take something else?  Should they take such things far before or far after or at the same time as taking the phenylalanine each day?  Should the phenylalanine be taken with meals or at a time seperated from meals?  Should a larger amount of phenylalanine be taken, or is say 1000 to 1500 mg enough per day? Thanks, and take care. Paul

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (CarobMcGoo) writes: However I agree with Scudmores post on several points. Being asthmatic at times myself….I’ve been fighting with my doctors against taking thoses steroid inhalers. Like Scudmore says gluco-steroids are a powerful type of medication and should be used as a last line of defense, unfortunately it seems alot of doctors prescribe inhaled steroids like candy    At this point you should be coming to the conclusion that if Scudamore says it, the truth is probably 180 degrees away.  This case is no exception.    Asthma is fundamentally an inflammatory problem.  The treatment must be fundamentally anti-inflammatory.  Until last year, that meant an inhaled steroid FIRST, for all cases in which quality of life was being disrupted (and for which lung function was significantly impaired).

Quite right Have Asthma Action Plans come into use in the United States? Kerry The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, and the intelligent are full of doubt

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have asthma.  I take an inhaled steroid every day.  Without it I couldn’t lead a normal life, which I now do.  I have no side effects, which is the case for many other asthmatics also.  Current treatment guidelines for asthma recommend inhaled steroids unless the need for relieving inhalers is less than something like once per day.  This kind of treatment did *not* work for me, and I had unpleasant side effects within a few minutes of taking a dose. This article is fundamentally scare-mongering.  Asthmatics often have the choice between severe diability and the sometimes high risk of early death due to their disease or taking steroids. I know one girl saved by drugs every year—caught the asthma from another drug, the MMR vaccine.  In fact it looks to me as the main causes of asthma are vaccines and antibiotics. Cobblers.  The main culprits are allergens, irritants and infections. Try putting this one about in the asthma NG and see what happens.  On second thought please don’t!

I did months ago, to no response.  Causes are a bit previous to an asthma sufferer I presume.  Now Buteyko, that seems to get them going. Irritants may get the asthma going but  nothing fits the bill quite like vaccines.  After all they can cause death and brain damage so they don’t cause asthma?  Injecting mercury solutions into 3 month old babies seems more of an irritant than what is floating around in the air. John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have asthma.  I take an inhaled steroid every day.  Without it I couldn’t lead a normal life, which I now do.  I have no side effects, which is the case for many other asthmatics also.  Current treatment guidelines for asthma recommend inhaled steroids unless the need for relieving inhalers is less than something like once per day.  This kind of treatment did *not* work for me, and I had unpleasant side effects within a few minutes of taking a dose. This article is fundamentally scare-mongering.  Asthmatics often have the choice between severe diability and the sometimes high risk of early death due to their disease or taking steroids. I know one girl saved by drugs every year—caught the asthma from another drug, the MMR vaccine.  In fact it looks to me as the main causes of asthma are vaccines and antibiotics.

Cobblers.  The main culprits are allergens, irritants and infections. Try putting this one about in the asthma NG and see what happens.  On second thought please don’t! Anyway, she is going to try the Buteyko method http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Which despite being a hypothesis which should be easy to prove still hasn’t been. Illegal use of steroids is where the greatest abose lies, not medical use.  What does he suggest that the people helped by steroids do instead?  Should I return to a life of spending 2-3 hours coughing each night, of being unable to run across the road without coughing, of sometimes almost passing out with coughing?  No thanks. What prompted this posting? Full moon is it?  PMT?  Harris effect?

As I asked, what prompted this posting? — Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

Response:

I have asthma.  I take an inhaled steroid every day.  Without it I couldn’t lead a normal life, which I now do.  I have no side effects, which is the case for many other asthmatics also.  Current treatment guidelines for asthma recommend inhaled steroids unless the need for relieving inhalers is less than something like once per day.  This kind of treatment did *not* work for me, and I had unpleasant side effects within a few minutes of taking a dose. This article is fundamentally scare-mongering.  Asthmatics often have the choice between severe diability and the sometimes high risk of early death due to their disease or taking steroids.

I know one girl saved by drugs every year—caught the asthma from another drug, the MMR vaccine.  In fact it looks to me as the main causes of asthma are vaccines and antibiotics.  Anyway, she is going to try the Buteyko method http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm Illegal use of steroids is where the greatest abose lies, not medical use.  What does he suggest that the people helped by steroids do instead?  Should I return to a life of spending 2-3 hours coughing each night, of being unable to run across the road without coughing, of sometimes almost passing out with coughing?  No thanks. What prompted this posting?

Full moon is it?  PMT?  Harris effect? John "Many people believe that the pharmaceutical companies are going to come up with a pill that will "cure" arthritis.  I

Question:

he also claims to be a former pediatrician … yet there is absolutely NO evidence that J P UTZ ever got a medical degree or passed the pediatric boards … claiming to be a "kidsdoc" … and wanting to charge people $100  to see his diploma … now that is a Quack …

** You make the accusation. So you prove that I work for the drug companies. ** ** **My observation.  If you talk and behave like a pharmashill then you will get **called one.  If you don’t like it, tough. ** **It is pointless denying it as you can’t prove you aint.  As the saying goes **"well, he would say that wouldn’t he" ** **john ** **"the US National Academy of Sciences published a report in Sept 1993 in **which the American Academy of paediatrics reaffirmed "its long standing **position that the benefits of immunisation far outweigh the risks". However, **Russell Alexander, a panel member and professor of epidemiology at the **University of Washington, says he is disappointed that the panel did not **compare the risk of vaccination with the risks of going **unvaccinated!…..Since there was no comparison of immunisation with another **procedure, or with being unimmunised, the conclusions of the American **Academy of Paediatrics are not based on scientific reasoning and are almost **meaningless. Their position only serves to illustrate the prejudice that **exists within many of those interested in promoting vaccines."—Trevor Gunn **BSc http://www.whale.to/m/gunn.html

Response:

You make the accusation. So you prove that I work for the drug companies. My observation.  If you talk and behave like a pharmashill then you will get called one.  If you don’t like it, tough. It is pointless denying it as you can’t prove you aint.  As the saying goes "well, he would say that wouldn’t he"

Good logic. However, if you used your brain (big if) and you read everything I say, you will see that I do not back pharmacuetical companies in everything I say. Like the disgusting ways drug companies advertise. All the best, Wyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – john "the US National Academy of Sciences published a report in Sept 1993 in which the American Academy of paediatrics reaffirmed "its long standing position that the benefits of immunisation far outweigh the risks". However, Russell Alexander, a panel member and professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington, says he is disappointed that the panel did not compare the risk of vaccination with the risks of going unvaccinated!…..Since there was no comparison of immunisation with another procedure, or with being unimmunised, the conclusions of the American Academy of Paediatrics are not based on scientific reasoning and are almost meaningless. Their position only serves to illustrate the prejudice that exists within many of those interested in promoting vaccines."—Trevor Gunn BSc http://www.whale.to/m/gunn.html

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seek information from reliable sources. http://www.cdc.gov/nip http://www.immunizationinfo.org http://www,imunize.org http://www.vaccine.chop.edu are possible sources of information Be aware that some groups with official-sounding names are actually anti-vaccine networks with a bias.  (Some of these groups may have *some* good information, but be aware of their bias) Unlike www.vaccinewebsite.com which has no conflict of interest unlike the billion $$ vaccine industry represented in the CDC and the rest. The CDC’s conflict of interest is in providing good medically-based advice.

LOL. deaf, blind and dumb. Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Who sponsors the website that you sited? All the best, Wyle john Immunization Action Coalition http://www.immunize.org/ "IAC is a U.S. non profit organization"—Deborah L. Wexler, MD Executive Director, Immunization Action Coalition Groups That Provide Financial Support to the Immunization Action Coalition in 1999:—Chiron Corporation, GlaxoWellcome, Merck & Co., Nabi, North American Vaccine, Pasteur Merieux Connaught, SmithKline Beecham, Wyeth Lederle Vaccines

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seek information from reliable sources. http://www.cdc.gov/nip http://www.immunizationinfo.org http://www,imunize.org http://www.vaccine.chop.edu are possible sources of information Be aware that some groups with official-sounding names are actually anti-vaccine networks with a bias.  (Some of these groups may have *some* good information, but be aware of their bias) Unlike www.vaccinewebsite.com which has no conflict of interest unlike the billion $$ vaccine industry represented in the CDC and the rest.

Uh, sorry, the "conflict" with that website is that the author is a total idiot. Immunization Action Coalition http://www.immunize.org/ "IAC is a U.S. non profit organization"—Deborah L. Wexler, MD Executive Director, Immunization Action Coalition Groups That Provide Financial Support to the Immunization Action Coalition in 1999:—Chiron Corporation, GlaxoWellcome, Merck & Co., Nabi, North American Vaccine, Pasteur Merieux Connaught, SmithKline Beecham, Wyeth Lederle Vaccines

Since when does "non-profit" mean "no revenue at all"?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seek information from reliable sources. http://www.cdc.gov/nip http://www.immunizationinfo.org http://www,imunize.org http://www.vaccine.chop.edu are possible sources of information Be aware that some groups with official-sounding names are actually anti-vaccine networks with a bias.  (Some of these groups may have *some* good information, but be aware of their bias) Unlike www.vaccinewebsite.com which has no conflict of interest unlike the billion $$ vaccine industry represented in the CDC and the rest.

The CDC’s conflict of interest is in providing good medically-based advice. Who sponsors the website that you sited? All the best, Wyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – john Immunization Action Coalition http://www.immunize.org/ "IAC is a U.S. non profit organization"—Deborah L. Wexler, MD Executive Director, Immunization Action Coalition Groups That Provide Financial Support to the Immunization Action Coalition in 1999:—Chiron Corporation, GlaxoWellcome, Merck & Co., Nabi, North American Vaccine, Pasteur Merieux Connaught, SmithKline Beecham, Wyeth Lederle Vaccines

Response:

Seek information from reliable sources. http://www.cdc.gov/nip http://www.immunizationinfo.org http://www,imunize.org http://www.vaccine.chop.edu are possible sources of information Be aware that some groups with official-sounding names are actually anti-vaccine networks with a bias.  (Some of these groups may have *some* good information, but be aware of their bias)

Unlike www.vaccinewebsite.com which has no conflict of interest unlike the billion $$ vaccine industry represented in the CDC and the rest. john Immunization Action Coalition http://www.immunize.org/ "IAC is a U.S. non profit organization"—Deborah L. Wexler, MD Executive Director, Immunization Action Coalition Groups That Provide Financial Support to the Immunization Action Coalition in 1999:—Chiron Corporation, GlaxoWellcome, Merck & Co., Nabi, North American Vaccine, Pasteur Merieux Connaught, SmithKline Beecham, Wyeth Lederle Vaccines

Response:

You make the accusation. So you prove that I work for the drug companies.

My observation.  If you talk and behave like a pharmashill then you will get called one.  If you don’t like it, tough. It is pointless denying it as you can’t prove you aint.  As the saying goes "well, he would say that wouldn’t he" john "the US National Academy of Sciences published a report in Sept 1993 in which the American Academy of paediatrics reaffirmed "its long standing position that the benefits of immunisation far outweigh the risks". However, Russell Alexander, a panel member and professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington, says he is disappointed that the panel did not compare the risk of vaccination with the risks of going unvaccinated!…..Since there was no comparison of immunisation with another procedure, or with being unimmunised, the conclusions of the American Academy of Paediatrics are not based on scientific reasoning and are almost meaningless. Their position only serves to illustrate the prejudice that exists within many of those interested in promoting vaccines."—Trevor Gunn BSc http://www.whale.to/m/gunn.html

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. Oh yeah?  Prove it. Sneers Hi Mark This is probably the only occasion when I shall ever agree with john (and then only in part). I’ve no idea and care even less about whether or not this person is a medical doctors.  However, john is partly correct in saying that ‘they don’t use MD here’. UK doctors don’t earn the MD degree.  They earn the MBChB double degree or similar (BMBCh, etc).  MD is only for the most senior doctors and is earned by writing a research thesis.  MD takes precedence over PhD.  Someone with an MD as well as the normal medical degrees may choose to use only MD, as it is only open to medical practitioners and the senior one therefore implies the junior ones. How odd to be defending john.

Weird, huh? I was being somewhat sarcastic WRT John proving anything. Thatks for the 411.

Response:

I have always been able to trust CR to provide "best buy" recommendations for the worst crap they are reviewing.  The reviewers are clueless, uneducated goofballs that would not know a good product if it bit them.  I have been down that road before, never to return.  Now when I see that road, I make rude gestures at it, and keep on going.  As for those occasional reports that are correct, even a pig will find a turnip once in a while. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Consumer Reports just published a report on the vaccine controversy that might shed some light where there is currently too much heat. This is part one of two. Vaccines: an issue of trust pp. 17 – 21 in the August 2001 issue of Consumer Reports.  It appears it is not online at this point, but it might be at some later date.   The gist of it seems to be that while there *is* cause for concern and the government is dragging its feet on things that should be done, most immunizations for children are a good thing. … Yes, the current Consumer Reports takes a middle ground. People can read that for an unbiased opinion.

Response:

message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. Oh yeah?  Prove it. Sneers

Keep this a secret, but John is actually right on this one Dr Jayne Donegan, MBBS

In Australia, the degrees Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery make you qualified to be a doctor. You won’t get a degree called "MD" from an Oz medical school. I think the same applies in the UK. Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

The way this is going, one would think john is being paid by the casket companies.  Why else would someone be so anti-vac and take the stance that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many? rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. However, you fail to mention why I am incorrect. BTW, I am shill for no one. I get no money from pharmaceutical companies at all. Oh yeah.  Prove it. You make the accusation. So you prove that I work for the drug companies. And even if I did (I don’t), you still have yet to show that I am incorrect. All the best, Wyle Cheers john

Response:

message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D.

She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. However, you fail to mention why I am incorrect. BTW, I am shill for no one. I get no money from pharmaceutical companies at all.

Oh yeah.  Prove it. Cheers john

Response:

VACCINATION VIEWPOINT Dr Jayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP http://www.whale.to/m/donegan7.html Exposure to a disease does not guarantee infection. If one has a good immune system one can expel or have mild forms of many diseases. Most of the diseases that are routinely vaccinated against have been our fellow travellers through many millennia. It is not in the interest of a disease to wipe out the population it infects. This is the reason that most of the previously, extremely virulent diseases, have evolved to a milder childhood form which does not kill or cause large ill effects, so that the children can grow up and produce more children that may be infected. These diseases occurring in childhood actually prime the developing immune system of a child so that it becomes a strong, healthy adult who can completely throw off or certainly survive most infection. A well known saying in the science of immunology is that "Autoimmunity is the price that one pays for the eradication of infectious diseases". When the immune system has not been primed by these, extremely useful, childhood illnesses, it goes awry and may attack its own body. We may see this with the rise in the incidence of cancers, autoimmune rheumatoid and connective tissue diseases, eczema and asthma – which are not just occurring because we live longer. A study by Ronne (Lancet, 5/5/85 1-5) showed that adults who had had natural measles with a rash had a decreased incidence of various cancers, including cervical. Another study showed that women are less likely to contract ovarian cancer if they have had mumps during childhood. (West R.O., Epidemiological studies of malignancies of ovaries. Cancer; July 1966 :1001-1007). Having said this, will the vaccinated parents/siblings get atypical measles, polio etc? It depends on the state of their own immune system. If they live in a well ventilated accommodation with good sanitation. If they eat a well balanced diet with fresh fruit and vegetables, meat not infected with BSE or scrapie, a minimum of processed foods and preservatives and get plenty of exercise and fresh air, they are likely to throw off illnesses or have a mild form. Distressing symptoms can be treated, for example, homeopathically. The end of the illness episode, if there is one, should leave them healthier and stronger. The fact that they have been vaccinated against these diseases is a separate issue. The vaccinations certainly sensitise the immune system to many diseases. They certainly cause many not well-acknowledged neurological sequelae. Even the vehicles (fluids and other materials) in which the vaccines are injected cause unacceptable effects because they are so toxic. The main problem about the vaccines is that they do not do the work that is their primary function – namely, making people immune to infectious diseases. Vaccination stops children having their childhood diseases at the beneficial age (3-4yrs). Children are now susceptible to Rubella and Mumps at just the age when girls can conceive and boys can be made sterile. Antibodies from vaccination do not cross the placenta to make very young babies immune with the result that children of less than one year old are more likely to get them. In the case of Whooping cough this is just the time that the disease is likely to cause neurological damage. The Department of Health has already acknowledged that the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine does not work (PL CMO (96)6) but, instead of scrapping it, it is starting a program in October of this year to give children another dose of it before they start school. A recent study in the USA (JAMA 1996; 275: 1672-4) showed that 12% of adults with persistent cough presenting to one centre in California had Whooping Cough – this is despite the fact that they had been vaccinated against it. It is thought that the adults had been catching it from, also vaccinated, undiagnosed children with Whooping Cough. Do they suggest scrapping Pertussis vaccination? – No. They suggest giving another dose to older children. As the former Soviet Union has crumbled, Diphtheria has been occurring in adults in great numbers due to poor sanitation. All these adults have been vaccinated against Diphtheria but when the real cause of Diphtheria reappears – poor sanitation -vaccination does not stop its occurring at all. One note on ’sanitation’. There is a difference between having a clean water supply free of sewage and obsessive bleaching of floors and fumigation of children’s toys! We need to be exposed to a reasonable amount of ‘dirt’ in order to build up our immunity. Polio in its more paralytic form is actually a disease of communities that are too clean and whose children do not come in contact with it early so when they are exposed to it in late childhood or as adults they are more likely to have a severe form. What would I do? I would antidote all the previous vaccinations homeoopathically and search for people with mumps/measles/rubella in order to expose my children to them. I would then nurse them through their illness and watch them have a growth spurt after them. If I had a dog bite or deep penetrating wound I would wash it out thoroughly with water and peroxide and then I would treat it homeopathically. We cannot escape these illnesses. They have been with us too long, they are part of our evolution. The more we try to fight them with vaccines and antibiotics instead of living with them, the more we weaken our immune systems and make them susceptible to a whole host of pathogens – listeria, legionella, Lyme’s Disease, cyclospora, not to mention the human immunodeficiency virus – that no-one had heard of a few decades ago. Acknowledgements to: Viera Scheibner’s "Vaccination", 1993. Arno Karlen ’s "Plague’s Progress", 1996, indigo. DrJayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP. August 1996.

Response:

VACCINATION VIEWPOINT Dr Jayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP http://www.whale.to/m/donegan7.html A well known saying in the science of immunology is that "Autoimmunity is the price that one pays for the eradication of infectious diseases".

If it were so well known, how come I could not find it anywhre else but in this drivel?

Response:

message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here.

Oh yeah?  Prove it. Sneers

Response:

in message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. Oh yeah?  Prove it. Sneers

Hi Mark This is probably the only occasion when I shall ever agree with john (and then only in part). I’ve no idea and care even less about whether or not this person is a medical doctors.  However, john is partly correct in saying that ‘they don’t use MD here’. UK doctors don’t earn the MD degree.  They earn the MBChB double degree or similar (BMBCh, etc).  MD is only for the most senior doctors and is earned by writing a research thesis.  MD takes precedence over PhD.  Someone with an MD as well as the normal medical degrees may choose to use only MD, as it is only open to medical practitioners and the senior one therefore implies the junior ones. How odd to be defending john. regards Alarca

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – in message Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. She is a medical doctor.  They don’t use MD here. However, you fail to mention why I am incorrect. BTW, I am shill for no one. I get no money from pharmaceutical companies at all. Oh yeah.  Prove it.

You make the accusation. So you prove that I work for the drug companies. And even if I did (I don’t), you still have yet to show that I am incorrect. All the best, Wyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cheers john

Response:

Consumer Reports just published a report on the vaccine controversy that might shed some light where there is currently too much heat. This is part one of two. Vaccines: an issue of trust pp. 17 – 21 in the August 2001 issue of Consumer Reports.  It appears it is not online at this point, but it might be at some later date.   The gist of it seems to be that while there *is* cause for concern and the government is dragging its feet on things that should be done, most immunizations for children are a good thing. …

Yes, the current Consumer Reports takes a middle ground. People can read that for an unbiased opinion.

Response:

In article **Really? Show evidence of this as well. ROTFLMVVVVSAO this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him. this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence

What evidence?  The web site in question is just one big set of assertions with zero backing.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

**Really? Show evidence of this as well. ROTFLMVVVVSAO this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him. this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence

That is Putz the pharmashill to a T.    A walking talking vaccine leaflet that wastes your time. Thank  god for real medical doctors like Dr Donegan who actually have a heart and soul. john ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

Response:

In article

**Really? Show evidence of this as well. ROTFLMVVVVSAO this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him. this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence HealthFraud on Parade.

Response:

In article **Really? Show evidence of this as well. ROTFLMVVVVSAO

What does this stand for? 4 v’s. Should be interesting. this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him. this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence

I have never heard of any one here known as JPUTZ. I have no sponsors. I do not get any money from any drug company or from ACSH. I did not ignore the evidence. On the contrary, I have shown why the so-called evidence does not support the theory it is backing. Until you have something positive to add to the discussion, the one thing I will be ignoring is you. HealthFraud on Parade.

Sorry, but the parades where on the 4th of July. I was not in any. All the best, Wyle

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – **Really? Show evidence of this as well. ROTFLMVVVVSAO this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him. this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence That is Putz the pharmashill to a T.    A walking talking vaccine leaflet that wastes your time. Thank  god for real medical doctors like Dr Donegan who actually have a heart and soul.

Ms Donegan is not even an M.D. However, you fail to mention why I am incorrect. BTW, I am shill for no one. I get no money from pharmaceutical companies at all. All the best, Wyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – john ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

Response:

this fake pediatrician J P UTZ better known as JPUTZ has proven over and over again that evidence that doesn’t fit the sponsor of ACSH … doesn’t exist to him.

While we’re talking about how you can make up things by taking the letters in someone’s name and spelling things out with them, has anyone noticed that you can get "I Arse" out of Ilena’s name. If we were 1st grade children, we could say things like "Ilena Rose, better known as I Arse". this is just a PR ploy … spend others time … then ignore the evidence HealthFraud on Parade.

Ilena (better known as …) sent out a message the other day about something that appeared on the Healthfraud list. The speed with which she did this can only mean she is a member of that list. By her own definition, that makes her a Healthfraud. Mad – Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon Bad – The Millenium Project    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles Sad – Full Canvas Jacket       http://www.ratbags.com/ranters

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – VACCINATION VIEWPOINT Dr Jayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP http://www.whale.to/m/donegan7.html Exposure to a disease does not guarantee infection. If one has a good immune system one can expel or have mild forms of many diseases. Most of the diseases that are routinely vaccinated against have been our fellow travellers through many millennia. It is not in the interest of a disease to wipe out the population it infects. This is the reason that most of the previously, extremely virulent diseases, have evolved to a milder childhood form which does not kill or cause large ill effects, so that the children can grow up and produce more children that may be infected.

This means that most of the children would have to grow up. However, from the "point of view" of a virus, a few children lost here and there is no big deal. This is what happens with measles, chicken pox, mumps, diptheria, etc. However, from an evolutionary point of view, why does a virus or bacterium have to spare a large percent of the people it infects, especially if there is another host. In other words, this this theory does not cut it as a reason not to vaccinate. These diseases occurring in childhood actually prime the developing immune system of a child so that it becomes a strong, healthy adult who can completely throw off or certainly survive most infection.

Vaccines do the same thing. Without taking lives the way natural infections do. Or making people as sick. A well known saying in the science of immunology is that "Autoimmunity is the price that one pays for the eradication of infectious diseases".

Really? Show us a source for this. When the immune system has not been primed by these, extremely useful, childhood illnesses, it goes awry and may attack its own body.

Provide evidence for this, too. We may see this with the rise in the incidence of cancers, autoimmune rheumatoid and connective tissue diseases, eczema and asthma – which are not just occurring because we live longer.

This is correct, we might see these. What the author wants to follow this, that immunizations is responsable for this, is unfounded. A study by Ronne (Lancet, 5/5/85 1-5) showed that adults who had had natural measles with a rash had a decreased incidence of various cancers, including cervical. Another study showed that women are less likely to contract ovarian cancer if they have had mumps during childhood. (West R.O., Epidemiological studies of malignancies of ovaries. Cancer; July 1966 :1001-1007).

The conclusion that vaccines prevent these benefits or even that the infections were the cause of these decreases in cancer is not proven by any means. Having said this, will the vaccinated parents/siblings get atypical measles, polio etc?

So far, no. To get atypical infections, one has to get an infection. And thanks to vaccines, measles is rarely seen in the US. And polio is not seen at all. So, thanks to vaccines, we will not see atypical infections from these either. It depends on the state of their own immune system.

And viruses being out to cause these infections. If they live in a well ventilated accommodation with good sanitation. If they eat a well balanced diet with fresh fruit and vegetables, meat not infected with BSE or scrapie, a minimum of processed foods and preservatives and get plenty of exercise and fresh air, they are likely to throw off illnesses or have a mild form.

Yeah. Likely. Not 100% protection. Or even as high as vaccines give you. Distressing symptoms can be treated, for example, homeopathically. The end of the illness episode, if there is one, should leave them healthier and stronger.

Really? Show us evidence that distilled water (oops, I mean homeopathy works). And as for making someone healtheir and stronger, show evidence of this as well. The fact that they have been vaccinated against these diseases is a separate issue. The vaccinations certainly sensitise the immune system to many diseases. They certainly cause many not well-acknowledged neurological sequelae.

Really? Certainly, you can show us real evidence of this. Even the vehicles (fluids and other materials) in which the vaccines are injected cause unacceptable effects because they are so

toxic. Not in the concentrations that are present in the vaccines. The main problem about the vaccines is that they do not do the work that is their primary function – namely, making people immune to infectious diseases.

Really? Show evidence of this as well. Vaccination stops children having their childhood diseases at the beneficial age (3-4yrs). Children are now susceptible to Rubella and Mumps at just the age when girls can conceive and boys can be made sterile.

Not if they are properly vaccined. Antibodies from vaccination do not cross the placenta to make very young babies immune with the result that children of less than one year old are more likely to get them.

Yeah, but if the mother is immune from vaccination, this is a mute point. The antibodies floating in the mother’s blood prevents rubella virus from getting to the gestating baby. In the case of Whooping cough this is just the time that the disease is likely to cause neurological damage.

Which is why it is important to vaccinate every. The Department of Health has already acknowledged that the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine does not work (PL CMO (96)6) but, instead of scrapping it, it is starting a program in October of this year to give children another dose of it before they start school.

Really? Show us a reference we can readily look up. A recent study in the USA (JAMA 1996; 275: 1672-4) showed that 12% of adults with persistent cough presenting to one centre in California had Whooping Cough – this is despite the fact that they had been vaccinated against it.

It is well known that pertussis vaccine does not protect forever. Nothing new here. It is thought that the adults had been catching it from, also vaccinated, undiagnosed children with Whooping Cough. Do they suggest scrapping Pertussis vaccination? – No. They suggest giving another dose to older children.

Good idea. As the former Soviet Union has crumbled, Diphtheria has been occurring in adults in great numbers due to poor sanitation.

And poor vaccination. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All these adults have been vaccinated against Diphtheria but when the real cause of Diphtheria reappears – poor sanitation -vaccination does not stop its occurring at all. One note on ’sanitation’. There is a difference between having a clean water supply free of sewage and obsessive bleaching of floors and fumigation of children’s toys! We need to be exposed to a reasonable amount of ‘dirt’ in order to build up our immunity. Polio in its more paralytic form is actually a disease of communities that are too clean and whose children do not come in contact with it early so when they are exposed to it in late childhood or as adults they are more likely to have a severe form. What would I do? I would antidote all the previous vaccinations homeoopathically and search for people with mumps/measles/rubella in order to expose my children to them.

You would also risk killing your kids with these diseases. And homeopathy is bullshit medicine. It is treatment with distilled water. I would then nurse them through their illness and watch them have a growth spurt after them. If I had a dog bite or deep penetrating wound I would wash it out thoroughly with water and peroxide and then I would treat it homeopathically.

And risk your child dying. Good choice. We cannot escape these illnesses. They have been with us too long, they are part of our evolution.

So what? The American Natives did pretty well before white brought them measles and other diseases. Sorry, this arguement is incorrect. The more we try to fight them with vaccines and antibiotics instead of living with them, the more we weaken our immune systems and make them susceptible to a whole host of pathogens – listeria, legionella, Lyme’s Disease, cyclospora, not to mention the human immunodeficiency virus – that no-one had heard of a few decades ago.

Not one of these diseases is caused by vaccines. This is fear mongoring. Acknowledgements to: Viera Scheibner’s "Vaccination", 1993. Arno Karlen ’s "Plague’s Progress", 1996, indigo. DrJayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP. August 1996.

Dr. Donegan is incorrect. All the best, Wyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

The patien in the waiting room noticed a bunch of flowers across the room. In about 10 mintes his eyes began to weep and he also began to sneeze prtty loud and often. When the Dr. appeared he complained about the flowers and felt that it was inconsiderate of him to not be alert to those with allergiys. The Dr. took him by the arm and walked him over to the flowers. He then informed him that the flowers were plastic.         So much for illusions.

Response:

This kinds of thing happened with many allergic people. I know people who have very sever hay fever, but when they was been in Casino during the high pollen period , none od them have had allergic symptoms. In my student year , I have a girl friend that has experienced with severe allery to fish smells. Once day she has been in our apartment and concentrated in study for her final test , we were kooking fish with very strong smell and nothing happen to her.

Response:

The patien in the waiting room noticed a bunch of flowers across the room. In about 10 mintes his eyes began to weep and he also began to sneeze prtty loud and often. When the Dr. appeared he complained about the flowers and felt that it was inconsiderate of him to not be alert to those with allergiys. The Dr. took him by the arm and walked him over to the flowers. He then informed him that the flowers were plastic.    So much for illusions.

this is but another form of the same phenomenon that gives rise to the placebo effect. did you have a point? if so, what did you think it was? reading your posting one way, you seem to be saying that allergies at least are merely psychosomatic. but clearly you cannot possibly be saying something that stupid and wrong. what you actually *are* saying, i’m afraid i don’t get.  - lynx, owner of a severely allergic dog – what illusions does _she_          suffer from? —    PGP/GnuPG key (ID 1024D/BFE0D6D0) available from keyservers everywhere        "Everything I am today, I owe to people whom it is now too late                                    to punish."

Response:

This kinds of thing happened with many allergic people. I know people who have very sever hay fever, but when they was been in Casino during the high pollen period , none od them have had allergic symptoms.

A large number of casinos (and of course it depends on which ones the people you know  were in) spend big, big dollars on "super-charged" air exchange and filtration systems mainly due to the second hand smoke issue.  That could attribute to your "phenomenon". If not, then mayhap here we go again with the psychosomatic crap.  Big waste of time. Patrice

Response:

This kinds of thing happened with many allergic people. I know people who have very sever hay fever, but when they was been in Casino during the high pollen period , none od them have had allergic symptoms. In my student year , I have a girl friend that has experienced with severe allery to fish smells. Once day she has been in our apartment and concentrated in study for her final test , we were kooking fish with very strong smell and nothing happen to her.

Your point is?  BTW, how can you have an allergy to a smell? Do you know anything at all about atopic disease? "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

The patien in the waiting room noticed a bunch of flowers across the room. In about 10 mintes his eyes began to weep and he also began to sneeze prtty loud and often. When the Dr. appeared he complained about the flowers and felt that it was inconsiderate of him to not be alert to those with allergiys. The Dr. took him by the arm and walked him over to the flowers. He then informed him that the flowers were plastic. So much for illusions.

EGADS!!  Stupid me.  And I thought this kind of thinking died with the dinosaur doctors of the 60s and before.  Many of us remember them.  The ones that said to us or our parents "asthma is all in your head" and "think it away".  All while you are in the ER or their office becoming cyanotic (turning blue). Amy (still thinking my asthma away) — How come so many people become millionaires because of what they do in their garage and all I ever get when I do things in my garage is dirty?

Response:

Your problem is that you know very little about disease ( it is acceptable, since you are not medical professional), but you allow yourself as a teacher or a very knowlegable expert. As a author of allergy and atopic diseases ( I have dozen of report on my works regarding allergy and atopy at the International Congresses of Allergy ). My patent on a method to measure IgE- binding capability of allergic patients serums are no being to license out to the multinational drug company as the tool to study and discover a new treayment for allergy. With my qualification , I can tell you that I did not know what is atopic disease is about. And no scientist or dr could tell you that they know what is atopy. We all know that it in many cases associated with high level of IgE, but at the same time about 20-30% of children who have allergic disease have normal or lower than normal IgE levels. Why it happens, why it go away, why the allergic treatment such as anti-histamine is very low effective for children with atopic dermatitis despite it is effective for Rhinitis that based on Science two these diseases caused by the same IgE. It is genetic and not genetic as the same time…….you might be the only one who know about this disease, you could help millions of children and adults with eczema ( atopic dermatitis). These patients are suffered hardly from lack of effective therapy and understanding about their disease. Your answer? I would like to hear and learn from you. Do not tell me its allergy, atopy or inflammation. The parots can say that if you just talk to them.

Response:

You know everything about allergy, and have surprsied that people can be allergic to the smells?

Response:

You know everything about allergy, and have surprsied that people can be allergic to the smells?

I know that asthmatics can react to odors, but I am also aware that this is not allergy. "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

The patien in the waiting room noticed a bunch of flowers across the room. In about 10 mintes his eyes began to weep and he also began to sneeze prtty loud and often. When the Dr. appeared he complained about the flowers and felt that it was inconsiderate of him to not be alert to those with allergiys. The Dr. took him by the arm and walked him over to the flowers. He then informed him that the flowers were plastic.         So much for illusions.

So what?  Some people are allergic to plastics or some of the ingredients in them. Besides, perhaps the patient misattributed the source and it was dust from the ventilation system, or from the material on the furniture, or a scent that a prior patient had transferred to a chair nearby, or the carpeting or…. Just because the patient misattributed does not negate the sneezing and runny eyes. IMO Ever tried to duplicate a "true" sneeze?  It’s very difficult, if not impossible. J

Response:

Your answer? I would like to hear and learn from you. Do not tell me its allergy, atopy or inflammation. The parots can say that if you just talk to them.

I understand your focus on IgE as this seems to be your area of research. I would suggest that we know that atopy/allergy involves considerably more than that and that it is not such a great mystery that IgE levels do not always predict atopy. Usually, PhD’s read deeply on the subject matter that involves their research to the exclusion of even closely related information. While I’m sure you could tell us all about the structure and chemistry of an IgE molecule I would also suspect that you understand little of how the rest of the immune system works. Having developed a test to measure IgE implies a firm grasp of chemistry but does not demonstrate that you have any further knowledge on the general topic of atopy. As for your question and "pre-rebuke," it is not really fair. It is always easy to accept the current knowledge and then claim that we do not understand a subject by asking what is the preceeding event. By this standard we know nothing about anything. If this is the type of arguments you intend to make then I would suggest that you post them on a philosophy group. What we do know is considerable. We understand a great deal of the process and are learning more all the time. — CBI, MD

Response:

Your point is?  BTW, how can you have an allergy to a smell?

This is physics. (I have a bachelor’s degree in physics, by the way.) The principle is this. Everything (even rocks), puts out molecules of itself in the air. When you smell something, you are smelling the molecules of that substance. For instance, if you smell fish, you are inhaling fish molecules given off by the fish, and distributed through the air by Brownian motion. Substances with high density (such as rocks) give off only a small number of molecules into the air; substances with lower density, give off a lot. Now, if you heat a substance, more of the molecules of that substance get into the air. If one broils a fish, then more fish molecules get into the air. And yes, one can react to them. The Food Allergy Network and their consultants (board-certified allergists) recommend that those with food allergies NOT be in a room where food they are allergic to is being cooked. One can have an anaphylactic reaction. I have a couple of newspaper clippings from reputable newspapers (not tabloids) reporting on individuals with food allergies being in a house where the food they were allergic to was being cooked, and dying of anaphylaxis (one specific one: a girl was allergic to pinto beans, went into a house where pinto beans were being cooked, and died of anaphylaxis). If you know the physics behind it, and know the history of those who have been affected by this, it would not seem very strange of implausible at all. Joan

Response:

The patien in the waiting room noticed a bunch of flowers across the room. In about 10 mintes his eyes began to weep and he also began to sneeze prtty loud and often. When the Dr. appeared he complained about the flowers and felt that it was inconsiderate of him to not be alert to those with allergiys. The Dr. took him by the arm and walked him over to the flowers. He then informed him that the flowers were plastic.    So much for illusions.

Darn it, you forgot the story about the bell, didn’t you?  What this person experienced is called a "conditioned response." — Victoria Lee Hirt Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship. Your life is the product of your past decisions.

Response:

You know everything about allergy, and have surprsied that people can be allergic to the smells?

No one is allergic to a smell.  Example:  I am very allergic to Malathion.  I react to it regardless of whether I smell it or not or whether I know it is being used or not.  It’s the chemical I am allergic to, not the smell. — Victoria Lee Hirt Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship. Your life is the product of your past decisions.

Response:

This kinds of thing happened with many allergic people. I know people who have very sever hay fever, but when they was been in Casino during the high pollen period , none od them have had allergic symptoms. In my student year , I have a girl friend that has experienced with severe allery to fish smells. Once day she has been in our apartment and concentrated in study for her final test , we were kooking fish with very strong smell and nothing happen to her.

Gee, do you think it could have been that she wasn’t allergic to this kind of fish?  And by cooking the fish didn’t you change its make up? — Victoria Lee Hirt Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship. Your life is the product of your past decisions.

Response:

Your point is?  BTW, how can you have an allergy to a smell? Now, if you heat a substance, more of the molecules of that substance get into the air. If one broils a fish, then more fish molecules get into the air. And yes, one can react to them. The Food Allergy Network and their consultants (board-certified allergists) recommend that those with food allergies NOT be in a room where food they are allergic to is being cooked. One can have an anaphylactic reaction.

The issue here was not food allergy.  It was a supposed allergy to the ’smell’ of frying fish only. "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

I really did not understand , why people like you are existed and considered themselves a master of others. What makee up the smell? It is not electromagnetic waves but chemical molecules that influenced to the receptors in your nosal membrane. People many time are allergic to the smell of dog, cat or more specifically to its secretions such us urine or sweating…

Response:

My focus is not only IgE but the whole process that involves in pathogenesis of the disease. My PhD thesis was one Autoimmune diseases pathogenesis, diagnosis and therapy and my first book is on applied Immunology. However, I and many other friends that involved in Immunology research and therapy for immunopathologic diseases have discovered that in some diseases such as Asthma, Allergies hvae metobolic or neurological root causes rather than only immunological. We have seen the involvement of the immune system in many diseases but it does not mean the immune system , its mediators or cells caused the diseases. Why there are a very little effective methods to manage autoimmune diseases such as: Arthritis, Lupus, Glomerulonephritis, MS….and other immunopatholical diseases such as : Asthma, Eczema, Psoriasis …..mainly because of lack ( or just minor) consideration to look for something else besides the immune system in both fundamental and pharmaceutical research systems.

Response:

Allergies hvae metobolic or neurological root causes rather than only immunological.

Wrong.  The root cause of atopic disease is genetic. "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

I really did not understand , why people like you are existed and considered themselves a master of others.

Coming from someone whose spelling is as atrocious as yours that is hilarious! What makee up the smell? It is not electromagnetic waves

Well, we could go into the structure of a cell, atom, subatomic particle, etc., but I don’t have the time. but chemical molecules that influenced to the receptors in your nosal membrane.

Nice try, but you still don’t get it.  While it is "chemical molecules that influenced to the receptors in your nasal membrane" (spelling corrected) the allergy reaction may or may not have anything to do with a smell.  There may in fact be no smell. People many time are allergic to the smell of dog, cat or more specifically to its secretions such us urine or sweating…

Just as likely is someone who is allergic to a cat, dog, or more specifically to its secretions such us urine or sweating but who smells nothing. — Victoria Lee Hirt Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship. Your life is the product of your past decisions.

Response:

Show me an evidence or prove that you always requested from other people? I can say that car accident is genetic . prove me wrong?

Response:

Show me an evidence or prove that you always requested from other people? I can say that car accident is genetic . prove me wrong?

Are you talking to me? "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

Recent articles in US News and Discovery, as well as on the internet, report that some scientists are beginning to study the previously unsuspected part that bacteria and viri play in some cardio vascular diseases.  One also suggested that Lupus and MS also show some signs of being caused or contributed to by exogamous germs.  It has been suggested that asthma may have at least some relation to pneumonia, flu, and cold viri.  Remember about ten years ago when ulcers were demonstrated to be caused by helicopylori? Studies are also reported recently that some kind of sensitising seems to be necessary for allergies and asthmatic problems to develop.  These are statistically significant, but it has not been shown yet precisely what the mechanism is.  It is far too early in the process to discard any possibility.

Response:

Studies are also reported recently that some kind of sensitising seems to be necessary for allergies and asthmatic problems to develop.  These are statistically significant, but it has not been shown yet precisely what the mechanism is.  It is far too early in the process to discard any possibility.

But unless you posses the requisite genes, the sensitizing will not happen. "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off."    General Colin Powell

Response:

You talk to yourself all the time Mr.Campbell. Of course everthing have it genetic prevalance, even card accidents or stubborness. However, if you think logically to speak allergy is genetic disease it sounds the same as we say the body is composed from Atoms. Many of Asian immigrants to California have been developed hay-fever for the first time in their life despite they have contact with the pollens before in their native place. Many people newly diagnosed or suffered from allergy and asthma each year. Any for any other diseases that are on raising you can say the same : they are all genetic. But the reality is many of aboved mentioned diseases could happen and not happen depend solely on the enviroment, food and life style…that is not genetic. In your case for example: you have other relatives and they may or may not have asthma. If the same you , lives and works in other place, eats other kind of food or belavior deferently ( in thinking or emotional activity) you could not have asthma at all. I had severe skin reaction to Penicilline smell ( I could not stay in the room where my mother did Penicillin injection)when I was a child, but I have not have it any more for the last twenty years. I even took the tablets and nothing happen. Many children I know that have atopic dermatitis, but it goes away when they grew up and never happen in their life again. American affrican have a very high rate of Asthma and Diabetes type II, but native affrican in Nigeria for example ( where I have worked as a chief of Clinical Immunological and Allergological laboratory in a children hospital in Lagos) have much less rate of Asthma and Allergy despite they were living in relatively  more poluted enviroment. And for your knowledge that from the literature I have found that researchers from different places and laboratories have linked about 230 differents genes or groups of genes. So it likely mean that we all may have some gene that may cause asthma and some of us may have or may not have it.

Response:

Question:

My mother has been complaining that she is getting too many wrinkles on her neck.  Does anyone know of anything that would help prevent this? Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, Try http://bon.port5.com/ and http://lierac.bizland.com/ You might get some help there. Regards, Carol My mother has been complaining that she is getting too many wrinkles on her neck.  Does anyone know of anything that would help prevent this? Before you buy.

Before you buy.

Response:

It worries me because these chemicals are also the main ingredients in brake fluid and antifreeze

BFD.  Pesticides are prepared by mixing them with water before spraying.  Obviously, we should stop drinking water, right? and actually irritate skin conditions such as eczema, [which I have]. Most products that are said to be natural are not.

If you have a genuine sensitivity to either SLS or propylene glycol, then I withdraw my earlier comments. You have a legitimate concern. Most people, however, do not share your problem and have no reason to avoid either SLS or PG.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

It worries me because these chemicals are also the main ingredients in brake fluid and antifreeze and actually irritate skin conditions such as eczema, [which I have]. Most products that are said to be natural are not.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do any of these products contain Sodium Lauryl Sulphate or Propylene Glycol? Who cares?  The idea that either of those are Horrible Bad Things is crap anyway.  Why not worry about spammers rather than chemical bogeymen like SLS? [ad unnecessarily included by "Shell" deleted]   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

This is due to the fact that spammers like you keep getting in our faces with your feces. rich – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ALOE VERA     Have you ever noticed that every time you open a newspaper or magazine these days there are more and more articles referring to Health and nutrition than in previous years?

Response:

Rich Spammers and sellers are a way of life. We have spammers on newsgroups and salespeople who work for pharmaceutical companies giving samples of the latest and greatest drug to Physicians in the hope they will prescribe those drugs to their patients. R.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is due to the fact that spammers like you keep getting in our faces with your feces. rich     ALOE VERA     Have you ever noticed that every time you open a newspaper or magazine these days there are more and more articles referring to Health and nutrition than in previous years?

Response:

Do any of these products contain Sodium Lauryl Sulphate or Propylene Glycol?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     ALOE VERA     Have you ever noticed that every time you open a newspaper or magazine these days there are more and more articles referring to Health and nutrition than in previous years?     This is due to the fact that people are living longer and are more concious about looking after their health and the health of their loved ones.     Now you can go one step further by using the natural products of Aloe Vera to, not only look after your body on the outside, but on the inside also. Aloe Vera can help with a varied range of problems such as: Asthma. Eczema. Irritible Bowel Syndrome. Ulcers Arthiritis. It is also used to help with burns and cuts by speeding up the healing process and reducing the amount of scarring on the body. We stock a wide range of natural Aloe Vera products that will help you and your family in the following, and many other areas of daily life. Pet Care. Health and Nutrition. Cosmetics and Skin Care. Weight Loss. All of our products are 100% safe and natural and all come with a no quibble 90 DAY GUARANTEE if you are not completely satisfied. For more information on our products and prices Contact Dean or Jenny on +44(01304) 832349. (independant distributor for forever living products)

Response:

Do any of these products contain Sodium Lauryl Sulphate or Propylene Glycol?

Who cares?  The idea that either of those are Horrible Bad Things is crap anyway.  Why not worry about spammers rather than chemical bogeymen like SLS? [ad unnecessarily included by "Shell" deleted]   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

Response:

    ALOE VERA     Have you ever noticed that every time you open a newspaper or magazine these days there are more and more articles referring to Health and nutrition than in previous years?     This is due to the fact that people are living longer and are more concious about looking after their health and the health of their loved ones.     Now you can go one step further by using the natural products of Aloe Vera to, not only look after your body on the outside, but on the inside also. Aloe Vera can help with a varied range of problems such as: Asthma. Eczema. Irritible Bowel Syndrome. Ulcers Arthiritis. It is also used to help with burns and cuts by speeding up the healing process and reducing the amount of scarring on the body. We stock a wide range of natural Aloe Vera products that will help you and your family in the following, and many other areas of daily life. Pet Care. Health and Nutrition. Cosmetics and Skin Care. Weight Loss. All of our products are 100% safe and natural and all come with a no quibble 90 DAY GUARANTEE if you are not completely satisfied. For more information on our products and prices Contact Dean or Jenny on +44(01304) 832349. (independant distributor for forever living products)

Response:

Question:

Alot on talk radio… Results       25 to 0ne allowing there kid into school  who don’t have a shot Religious stuff//or not aware? Let them go …will not effect your child….. Not going to read your novel…:-) The Post-Vaccination Syndrome

http://www.dse.nl/smits/english/pvs/pvs.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The symptoms united in this syndrome originate from two sources. On the one hand a large number of these symptoms are frequently cited in the literature as post-vaccination symptoms; other symptoms are my own observations. It must be stressed in this context that any symptom that manifests itself following vaccination and only disappears after treatment with the potentised vaccine is caused by the vaccine concerned. The PVS can be divided into an acute and a chronic syndrome. The following are the main symptoms of the acute syndrome: fever, convulsions, absent-mindedness, encephalitis and/or meningitis, limbs swollen around the point of inoculation, whooping-type cough, bronchitis, diarrhoea, excessive somnolence, frequent and inconsolable crying, penetrating and heart-rending shrieking (cri enc