Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good "doctor" also forgot to say that vaccines also cause body odor and paralysis of the rectum. BTW, aren’t homeopathy and immunizations/vaccines along the same philosphical lines ?? Homeopathy induces a reaction by a dilutation of an "antigen" or am I’m incorrect on this?? I think you’re not right.  The idea of homeopathy is the "law of similars," which says that if substance A causes the symptoms of disease B, then ingesting a very tiny amount of A will cure B. I’m not sure if this is supposed to be preventive or just curative. I always thought it was curative, but we have enough homeopaths (and others) to set me straight if I’m wrong.

That’s my understanding; but basically in immunizations one is triggering an antigen-antibody response by inducing an inactive (or active) particulate.  The preventive and curative differences are good points though. frank Before you buy.

Response:

Homeopathy claims to work by mysterious energy properties of water.

Okay Energies which are impossible according to current knowledge.

No, without a description of how it is supposed to work you cannot make that decision.   You can only state that this ‘Energy’ does not act as other normal energy fields do.   Remember this quote from a physicist "I cannot comment further on whether laws of physics would have to be changed because to do that would require the mathematical details of the phenomenon; that’s not yet at hand. " The dilutions of Homeopathic preparations are so great that it is unlikely that even a single molecule of the original substance remains.

Yes, but are we not agreed that any effect has nothing to do with the actual presence of the original substance, but an ‘impression’ of the substance. It’s like trying to explain to someone, with no concept of writing, that you can study a substance from books, and you don’t need to carry the substance around with you. Best wishes — John Bain UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html Surround Sound for Television :

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good "doctor" also forgot to say that vaccines also cause body odor and paralysis of the rectum. He did? Jan, I was being "sarcastic" . And you *really* thought I missed that?  There was a long long list of ills that vaccines are being blamed for (some could be legit) and I was trying to make a point. I know. And so was I. Has Andi convinced you that I am completely stupid? Jan

Jan, even my family, co-workers, and close patients are sometimes not sure if I’m being sarcastic or just plain stupid!! Heck, sometimes I’m not even sure!! In my very humble opinion I regard you as a very intelligent, well-spoken individual with strong ideals and beliefs. Do you really think that Andrew would be spending all his time in debate with you if he, himeself, didn’t think so either?? frank " a caring optometrist who sees eye to eye" Before you buy.

Response:

But again, I think the principles of immunizations and homeopathy are similar in scope in trying to induce a reaction in the body by introducing substances responsible to stimulate this reaction. If so, I find it mildly ironic that homeopathy is critical of vaccines.

Please read up a bit on Homeopathy.  The claims are nothing like those of vaccination.  Homeopathy claims to work by mysterious energy properties of water.  Energies which are impossible according to current knowledge.  The dilutions of Homeopathic preparations are so great that it is unlikely that even a single molecule of the original substance remains. erf

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It’s best you ask a homeopat6h for an official explanation. Th my understanding a homoeopath treats an illness with something that causes like reactions. For example if you have a headache you are given something that will give you the same sort of headache with all the same symptoms. Exactly how and why it works I am not versed on yet, but it works sufficiently to be accepted into mainstream medicine in England and is practiced in many hospitals there. Love and Light Steven – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good "doctor" also forgot to say that vaccines also cause body odor and paralysis of the rectum. BTW, aren’t homeopathy and immunizations/vaccines along the same philosphical lines ?? Homeopathy induces a reaction by a dilutation of an "antigen" or am I’m incorrect on this?? frank Before you buy.

Response:

The good "doctor" also forgot to say that vaccines also cause body odor and paralysis of the rectum.

He did? BTW, aren’t homeopathy and immunizations/vaccines along the same philosphical lines ?? Homeopathy induces a reaction by a dilutation of an "antigen" or am I’m incorrect on this?? frank

It would be helpful if you would post the prior discussion, just so much goin on cheer…..it’s hard to keep it all straight…….:-) Jan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The good "doctor" also forgot to say that vaccines also cause body odor and paralysis of the rectum. He did? Jan, I was being "sarcastic" .

And you *really* thought I missed that?  There was a long long list of ills that vaccines are being blamed for (some could be legit) and I was trying to make a point.

I know. And so was I. Has Andi convinced you that I am completely stupid? Jan

Response:

Hehe Jan, i know good huh, and it comes under the heading "ILLUSIONS too hehe. Won’t they be upset to see something from an expert saying the opposite to their beliefs lol. Love & Light Steven

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another article found, this one relating to the post vaccinal syndrome. Enjoy Love and Light Steven MY, my Steven. *Where* did you find this trashy article?  Hardly any bad side Davy, Happy, Rich, Peter, and Andrew will eat ya alive…..:-) Jan Drs. Tinus Smits, MD, homeopathy Tinus Smits has 20 years of experience with homeopathy and is since 1986 full time homeopathic doctor in Eindhoven. He developed a completely new homeopathy, -Inspiring Homeopathy- based on the idea that disturbances in the energy of a pati

Question:

CA Owens is right on the money with this. On a somewhat related topic, I once had a severe reaction (seemed to be heading toward anaphylaxis) to what was probably some kind of insect bite (but I can’t be sure, since I didn’t see it or feel it happen).  So, they got me all fixed up at the ER and sent me home with an anakit and instructions, yadda yadda. I even had some testing later and some alleged desensitization.  I was stung a few times after that, and nothing every happened.  I guess it coulda been due to the alleged desensitization, altho I never went back for the boosters. My allergist says now that such isolated anaphylactic reactions to a sting or bite are often one-time deals that aren’t very understood, other then they sometimes never happen again and don’t indicate that you are more allergic to a given insect than others.  Of course, there are those susceptible people who are deathly allergic to bees, wasps, whatever. My point?  (Uh, do I have one?)  Oh yeah, well, I think the first doc I saw in the ER was using the same approach as what you list down here — giving me the most likely cause and the usual approach to solving it, without really knowing what actually went on and without any further testing. I carried that stupid anakit around for years for no good reason.  Which I guess would have been good if I actually was severely allergic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi There, My son’s asthma specialist said that there **IS** a relationship between severe asthma and anaphalytic reactions. I just wondered how true this is. Is the specialist just being paranoid? Many people with severe asthma also have allergies.  Those with allergic asthma get asthma as a result of their allergies.  However, not all asthmatics have allergies, and not all people with allergies have asthma, and not all allergies cause asthma. We’ve listened to the specialist and kept peanut products and other nut products out of our house , as well as some other allergens he suggested we don’t keep like..strawberries and raspberries. Your specialist is taking the easy route — avoidance of statistically frequent allergens rather than figuring things out.  However, this system does have one MAJOR drawback — if your child happens to be allergic to a statistically infrequent allergen, this program will do him / her NO good at all.  For example, I happen to be allergic to capsaicins, and have been my whole life, with an anaphylactic response on what was apparently my second exposure, and an anaphylactic response every exposure since then.  Statistically, this is a VERY infrequent allergen.  Avoiding nuts and strawberries would have done nothing to prevent it. Personally, I would push the specialist to get some more definitive answers. Chris Owens

Response:

Hi There, My son’s asthma specialist said that there **IS** a relationship between severe asthma and anaphalytic reactions. I just wondered how true this is. Is the specialist just being paranoid?

Many people with severe asthma also have allergies.  Those with allergic asthma get asthma as a result of their allergies.  However, not all asthmatics have allergies, and not all people with allergies have asthma, and not all allergies cause asthma. We’ve listened to the specialist and kept peanut products and other nut products out of our house , as well as some other allergens he suggested we don’t keep like..strawberries and raspberries.

Your specialist is taking the easy route — avoidance of statistically frequent allergens rather than figuring things out.  However, this system does have one MAJOR drawback — if your child happens to be allergic to a statistically infrequent allergen, this program will do him / her NO good at all.  For example, I happen to be allergic to capsaicins, and have been my whole life, with an anaphylactic response on what was apparently my second exposure, and an anaphylactic response every exposure since then.  Statistically, this is a VERY infrequent allergen.  Avoiding nuts and strawberries would have done nothing to prevent it. Personally, I would push the specialist to get some more definitive answers. Chris Owens

Response:

Asthma, eczema, anaphylaxis, allergic rhinnitis (hayfever), atopic dermatitis ("the itch that rashes"), and other reactions (food, bee stings) are all examples allergic (atopic) diseases. One tends to inherit the tendency to get these types of things. You do not inherit a specific reaction nor a specific allergy (probably – a little controversial). Most people with any of these will have more than one, develop new ones over the course of their lives, and have others in the family with them. Unless there is a specific reason to fear that your son will develop anaphylactic reactions to nuts there is no reason to restrict his diet. The vast majority of asthmatics have no problems with nuts. The one caveat to this is that there is some evidence that early exposure in an atopic individual can lead to certain allergies. This is why it is recommended by many to avoid cows milk until over one year and nuts until after two. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi There, My son’s asthma specialist said that there **IS** a relationship between severe asthma and anaphalytic reactions. I just wondered how true this is. Is the specialist just being paranoid? Or is there evidence of this? We’ve listened to the specialist and kept peanut products and other nut products out of our house , as well as some other allergens he suggested we don’t keep like..strawberries and raspberries. I am really don’t want my son to be anaphalytic as well…and I’m keeping an eye out for all allergies. (He’s been tested for some allergens but not for bee sting allergies. I’m worried about this as my husband does react a bit to bee stings.) Anyways, I don’t want to go on and on …I just want your opinion and I know you guys are "on the ball"with your advice. Thanks in advance…and thanks for all you other pieces of advice in the past. You guys are really great! Vicky

Response:

Hi There, My son’s asthma specialist said that there **IS** a relationship between severe asthma and anaphalytic reactions. I just wondered how true this is. Is the specialist just being paranoid? Or is there evidence of this? We’ve listened to the specialist and kept peanut products and other nut products out of our house , as well as some other allergens he suggested we don’t keep like..strawberries and raspberries. I am really don’t want my son to be anaphalytic as well…and I’m keeping an eye out for all allergies. (He’s been tested for some allergens but not for bee sting allergies. I’m worried about this as my husband does react a bit to bee stings.) Anyways, I don’t want to go on and on …I just want your opinion and I know you guys are "on the ball"with your advice. Thanks in advance…and thanks for all you other pieces of advice in the past. You guys are really great! Vicky

Response:

Question:

Hi Sue.  I actually live in Loughborough, but I had both my children at QMC.  Where did you go? Thomasina

I delivered in London (Chelsea and Westminster) and moved here last year.  I live in Long Eaton so it seems I can choose between QMC, Nottingham City and Derby, if I ever get around to having another one! BTW, I used to work in L’boro at the Barclays Bank on Bishop Meadow Road, oooh about 10 years ago! — Sue, mum to Steffi the Pomwi (12/96) **Header has spam trap** sue at woollett dot demon dot co uk http://members.tripod.com/~woollett/index.html

Response:

I delivered in London (Chelsea and Westminster) and moved here last year.  I live in Long Eaton so it seems I can choose between QMC, Nottingham City and Derby, if I ever get around to having another one! BTW, I used to work in L’boro at the Barclays Bank on Bishop Meadow Road, oooh about 10 years ago!

I read in another newsgroup that you’re thinking of training as a breastfeeding counsellor.  I’m currently training as a breastfeeding counsellor with the NCT – it’d be good to keep in touch if you do train (and any other trainees out there – feel free to email me!).  I hope you do manage to train sometime.  I ‘m really enjoying it at the moment and its nice to know who’s out there. Thomasina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Sue, mum to Steffi the Pomwi (12/96) **Header has spam trap** sue at woollett dot demon dot co uk http://members.tripod.com/~woollett/index.html

Response:

I’m currently training as a breastfeeding counsellor with the NCT – it’d be good to keep in touch if you do train (and any other trainees out there – feel free to email me!).  I hope you do manage to train sometime.  I ‘m really enjoying it at the moment and its nice to know who’s out there. Thomasina

Thomasina, (and anyone else who’s still in this thread) You might be interested in our email list (surprise, surprise, it’s at onelist.com!) for the NCT. You can subscribe by going to http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/nct There are about 21 people on the list although there are only about 6 of us that are quite vocal!  It is quiet at times but also hots up from time to time!  Traffic is fair low volume. BTW, it was our branch open meeting last night and I mentioned to them that I would like to train – they were very receptive and we, as a branch, can afford it at present.  Funny thing – they have had four people ask about training recently.  Good job since we currently have no breastfeeding counsellors – they all resigned re the Sainsburys thing. — Sue, mum to Steffi the Pomwi (12/96) **Header has spam trap** sue at woollett dot demon dot co uk http://members.tripod.com/~woollett/index.html

Response:

I have a friend in Manchester who has had very good breastfeeding support from her community midwife and I have also had pretty good experiences in Nottingham.

Hi Thomasina, I am in Nottingham too – which hospital did you use? — Sue, mum to Steffi the Pomwi (12/96) **Header has spam trap** sue at woollett dot demon dot co uk http://members.tripod.com/~woollett/index.html

Response:

Hi Thomasina, I am in Nottingham too – which hospital did you use? — Hi Sue.  I actually live in Loughborough, but I had both my children at

QMC.  Where did you go? Thomasina

Response:

<snip It seems that they are the ones with the problem, not you.  Do you think it really is "concern", or competitiveness?

I think you hit the nail on the head. <another snip picture the scenario in ten years’ time – all this hassle will be long over and while your SIL has a child who has an egg allergy for life, your child will be able to go to parties without worrying about every bite she’s putting in her mouth.

Thanks for putting this in perspective.  SIL was told that her son will outgrow the egg allergy eventually, I hope so! — Meg — "A little child born yesterday A thing on mother’s milk and kisses fed" — Homer. Hymn to Hermes, 1:406

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I’m an American married to a Man City fan and we live in the US.  Yesterday DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year.

As some posters have already said, the guidelines are 4 months the earliest, 6 months the latest to start introducing solids.   Has your SIL’s friend actually talked to anyone about the fact that she is giving her baby solids?  I know that my health visitor would be very concerned to hear about a baby less than 3 months being given solids.  In all the literature on weaning that I have read (eg publications by the Health Education Authority), they say that no solids at all should be given before 3 months and only in *exceptional* circumstances before 4 months.     The reason this is coming up is b/c my SIL (who has a 10 mo. old) has a friend who was due the same time as we were, with her second child.  The friend gave up bf-ing very early due to mastitis.  This friend gained over 5 stone with her pg, which my SIL told me was "all baby."  (This friend is not slim to begin with.)  Now she has a heavy baby, and has started to give it solids b/c she feels (was told?) that formula is not enough to feed her "big baby." SIL was concerned b/c Abby is also a big baby (9 lbs. 13 oz, 23 inches long at birth, 13 lbs 13 oz and 25 1/2 inches at 2 months).

It seems that they are the ones with the problem, not you.  Do you think it really is "concern", or competitiveness?  I think that if you presented the two babies’ situations to a doctor, theirs would be the one who would cause him to worry.  Certainly this would be the case in our local authority, which is very pro-breastfeeding.   SIL started her baby on solids at 4 months and he has an egg allergy. DH and I discuss the research on this and I thought we had agreed but he gets off the phone with his family and wants to know why don’t we give Abby formula, why don’t we give her solids? and we’ve been through this.  I feel like I’m doing something terrific for their granddaughter/niece, and they act as though I’m neglecting her.  

Sorry to hear that.  All I can say is that you know that you’re right and they’re wrong.  Hopefully, delaying solids will prevent your baby from developing food allergies; picture the scenario in ten years’ time – all this hassle will be long over and while your SIL has a child who has an egg allergy for life, your child will be able to go to parties without worrying about every bite she’s putting in her mouth. Denise

Response:

LOL.  That might work!  I’ll  have to come up with some statistics (he’s a scientist). — Meg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tell him that if you feed the baby formula, it has more chances of being a Man. United fan, or worse a Liverpool fan. Lucy West Ham fan I’m an American married to a Man City fan and we live in the US.  Yesterday DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year. Some of you will remember my stories from a month ago of my in-laws visit and the pressure from FIL  to put Abby on formula "for my convenience." The reason this is coming up is b/c my SIL (who has a 10 mo. old) has a friend who was due the same time as we were, with her second child.  The friend gave up bf-ing very early due to mastitis.  This friend gained over 5 stone with her pg, which my SIL told me was "all baby."  (This friend is not slim to begin with.)  Now she has a heavy baby, and has started to give it solids b/c she feels (was told?) that formula is not enough to feed her "big baby." SIL was concerned b/c Abby is also a big baby (9 lbs. 13 oz, 23 inches long at birth, 13 lbs 13 oz and 25 1/2 inches at 2 months). Both DH and I have food allergies and I would really like to delay giving Abby solids until she is 6 mo. old.  Is there any British source to back this up? SIL started her baby on solids at 4 months and he has an egg allergy. Plus Abby and I will probably be staying with the in-laws when she is 6 mo. old and we will probably be going through this stop-bf-ing-my-granddaughter thing all over again.  DH will be at a conference and so we will be staying there w/out him. Are the leaflets at Boots really good about supporting bf-ing or is it a case of it’s best but if you can’t do it, here’s what you do? What is SMA (from the formula thread)? DH and I discuss the research on this and I thought we had agreed but he gets off the phone with his family and wants to know why don’t we give Abby formula, why don’t we give her solids? and we’ve been through this.  I feel like I’m doing something terrific for their granddaughter/niece, and they act as though I’m neglecting her.  All I can do, it seems, is keep saying that Abby’s growing beautifully, is healthy, and that her dr is very pleased with her progress.  For crying out loud, she’s off the charts for everything. I’d hate to see what pressure I would get if she wasn’t such an Amazon. When they were here for a visit, DH didn’t want me to defend the benefits of bf-ing b/c he was concerned it would imply criticism of his sister’s choice to ff. But they don’t seem to hesitate to criticise our choice! TIA — Meg, who needed to vent

– "A little child born yesterday A thing on mother’s milk and kisses fed" — Homer. Hymn to Hermes, 1:406

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My SIL had a baby almost a year ago in Manchester, and in the beginning, when she was worried that she couldn’t tell how much milk she was producing, and maybe it wasn’t enough, she decided to "top him off" (another cultural difference, in America, to top someone is to kill them!) with a bottle. Then her nurses told her that that is what they do too (approval). Her parents were completely indignant that the nurses did not tell her this in the first place. It was as if they suspected the nurses of trying to trick her into bf-ing.  And of course (sarcasm on) ff-ing was superior since that’s what the nurses did themselves. Our nephew is a beautiful healthy boy, and SIL is an excellent mother. — Meg

As I said in my previous post, it does seem to be pot luck as to whether you get good help or not.  I have a friend in Manchester who has had very good breastfeeding support from her community midwife and I have also had pretty good experiences in Nottingham.  My first baby was born after an emergency section and did not want to latch on.  I was able to call a midwife everytime I wanted to feed for help with latching.  Also, as they knew I wanted to breastfeed, a special dedicated midwife/advisor came to see me and showed me how to pump and to hand express my colostrum and give this to my baby by syringe as well as keeping on putting him to the breast.  Not once was it suggested that I "top him up" or give forumla at all.  He was 9lbs 8oz born and had gone down to 8lbs by day 6.  Even though he had lost more than 10% of his body weight, as he had finally learned how to latch on we were allowed home where I received excellent support from my community midwife who visited regularly until she was happy that feeding was well established.  I also had support from my local National Childbirth Trust breastfeeding counsellor.  I had an equally good experience after the birth (VBAC) of my little girl Emma in November.  This time it was better – she was born, given to me to cuddle and she fed straight away for about 25 mins and knew exactly what to do!  She didn’t feed again for ages after that and had forgotten a bit when she did, so we had to go back to square one and re-learn what we had known straight after birth.  I got a little sore, but with persistance in taking her off when she wasn’t on properly this cleared up very quickly and again I received excellent support whilst in hospital – not a mention of formula.  The hospital has made sure all their midwives have been taught the same information so the staff were fairly consistant in their help.  Because of the tremendous help I got after the birth of my son, I decided I wanted to train as a breastfeeding counsellor.  I kept meeting people who said stuff like "I really wanted to breastfeed but I was told to give a bottle as he hadn’t fed for 8 hours".  This made me sad and angry as I now know that babies sometimes don’t want to feed for a while afterwards. With Emma the midwives told me that babies are often sleepy for upto 24 hours after birth and as she fed straight away not to worry.  Sure enough, when she decided she was hungry, she went for it with a vengance!  Many more hospitals (including the one in Nottingham where I had my children) are going for breastfeeding friendly status and are really having to work to improve their polices.  I’m sorry your SIL had such a bad time – I’m sure it goes again the WHO code for midwives to encourage forumla feeding and "topping up".  It is terrible that they did so – but there ARE good midwives out there and as I said before, lots of voluntary organisations too!  We just have to hang in there and do what we can to change what we can. Thomasina

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However there does not seem to be much support for breastfeeding in the media. A lot of articles in magazines seem to be stuck on the difficulties and not the pleasures and there always seems to be this thread that at the first sign of trouble you give up.

Although I agree there is not a lot of support in the daily papers, breastfeeding is often shown as the thing to do in popular TV series. Perhaps not everyone’s choice of viewing, but each episode of Eastenders is seen by millions of people of all ages and both Tiffany and Bianca have at least started off by breastfeeding their babies.  I remember that when Tiffany was feeding, it sparked at least one article in the Radio Times about expressing milk and getting help when needed.  The Australian soaps are quite good at this too. Bottlefeeding is everywhere and breastfeeding in public is never really seen anymore.

I disagree.  I have seen many mothers feeding in public – albeit very discreetly and I usually only notice because I happen to notice the baby lying so quietly.  Steffi and I have always eaten a lot of our meals out and it is in family type places that I tend to see these people – cafes at the Denby Pottery, Ikea, in Battersea Park, in shopping centre food courts and family-theme pubs. Couple this with the recent advertisment for SMA follow on milk which is on prime time television and you can see the pressure on many young mums to formula feed because that is what everyone else seems to be doing.

The follow on milk ads really bug me. There seems to be a very definite attitude of ’start solids, start formula’ as though that is the natural weaning process.  Many of the mums I know very happily breastfed their children for the first four months but by then had had enough and dropped the feeds one by one.  By six months, most have given up breastfeeding entirely. With my daughter I hit difficulties at 6 weeks and no matter how hard I tried to find help health professionals and doctors kept suggesting the bottle. Eventually I gave in. With my son I did a lot of research mainly on the Net and linked up this newsgroup and found out that my previous problem was due to a growth spurt at 5 weeks what a total waste. To think with that small piece of knowledge I could of breastfed my daughter like I am still doing with my son.

I am sorry to hear you had these difficulties.  I too had lots of problems and was fortunate enough to have found these newsgroups whilst I was pregnant.  In fact, I think the thing I missed most during the first six weeks of my daughter’s life was access to Usenet!!! (We were staying with family and my DH had the laptop.) Ignore what your family is saying and do what you feel is right. From what I have read the US seems to be better at knowing what is best for its children.

When I was in Virginia I was surprised by pro-breastfeeding attitude. There were public health ads on TV in favour of feeding and most times I fed Steffi (9mo) I received a favourable remark.  Being ‘foreign’ was an excuse that I was prepared to use if challenged (Best British accent, ‘Oh really?  You expect children to eat in the toilet?  That’s not how we do it in Britain.’  And if necessary, ‘But then you are such a *young* country and still learning how to do things properly.’  No offence to anyone here – we all have our own ways of dealing with these interfering busybodies!)  But the need never arose. As for solids start as late as possible both of mine were almost 6 months ,but , again in all the free stuff you get pressure from baby food companies to start at 4 months.

Yes, the free packs you can pick up from Boots, etc all contain sample jars of dried and jarred food. — Sue, mum to Steffi the Pomwi (12/96) **Header has spam trap** sue at woollett dot demon dot co uk http://members.tripod.com/~woollett/index.html

Response:

Tell him that if you feed the baby formula, it has more chances of being a Man. United fan, or worse a Liverpool fan. Lucy West Ham fan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m an American married to a Man City fan and we live in the US.  Yesterday DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year. Some of you will remember my stories from a month ago of my in-laws visit and the pressure from FIL  to put Abby on formula "for my convenience." The reason this is coming up is b/c my SIL (who has a 10 mo. old) has a friend who was due the same time as we were, with her second child.  The friend gave up bf-ing very early due to mastitis.  This friend gained over 5 stone with her pg, which my SIL told me was "all baby."  (This friend is not slim to begin with.)  Now she has a heavy baby, and has started to give it solids b/c she feels (was told?) that formula is not enough to feed her "big baby." SIL was concerned b/c Abby is also a big baby (9 lbs. 13 oz, 23 inches long at birth, 13 lbs 13 oz and 25 1/2 inches at 2 months). Both DH and I have food allergies and I would really like to delay giving Abby solids until she is 6 mo. old.  Is there any British source to back this up? SIL started her baby on solids at 4 months and he has an egg allergy. Plus Abby and I will probably be staying with the in-laws when she is 6 mo. old and we will probably be going through this stop-bf-ing-my-granddaughter thing all over again.  DH will be at a conference and so we will be staying there w/out him. Are the leaflets at Boots really good about supporting bf-ing or is it a case of it’s best but if you can’t do it, here’s what you do? What is SMA (from the formula thread)? DH and I discuss the research on this and I thought we had agreed but he gets off the phone with his family and wants to know why don’t we give Abby formula, why don’t we give her solids? and we’ve been through this.  I feel like I’m doing something terrific for their granddaughter/niece, and they act as though I’m neglecting her.  All I can do, it seems, is keep saying that Abby’s growing beautifully, is healthy, and that her dr is very pleased with her progress.  For crying out loud, she’s off the charts for everything. I’d hate to see what pressure I would get if she wasn’t such an Amazon. When they were here for a visit, DH didn’t want me to defend the benefits of bf-ing b/c he was concerned it would imply criticism of his sister’s choice to ff. But they don’t seem to hesitate to criticise our choice! TIA — Meg, who needed to vent

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DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year.

The guidelines for infant feeding in the UK come from the 1994 COMA Report ‘Weaning and the weaning diet’.  They recommend not commencing solids before 4 months with a few exceptions.  The advice given is to start between 4 and 6 months [not at 3 months, and not even necessarily at 4 months although some people interpret as meaning you must start at 4 months].  So as long as you start solids BY  6 months you would be within UK guidelines.  The British side of the family must be going be pre-1994 guidelines [which still didn't recommend weaning before 3 months anyway] so I’m afraid they are wrong.  Breastfeeding is also recommended to be continued for the first year. BTW, to answer your other question, SMA is a formula manufacturer, Beki

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Hi I have been nursing for a year in Britain and no matter what they say breastfeeding past the first few weeks still seems to be rare. As in the previous posts the guidelines are to breastfeed for the first year and to start solids between 4 and 6 months. However there does not seem to be much support for breastfeeding in the media. A lot of articles in magazines seem to be stuck on the difficulties and not the pleasures and there always seems to be this thread that at the first sign of trouble you give up. Bottlefeeding is everywhere and breastfeeding in public is never really seen anymore. Couple this with the recent advertisment for SMA follow on milk which is on prime time television and you can see the pressure on many young mums to formula feed because that is what everyone else seems to be doing. With my daughter I hit difficulties at 6 weeks and no matter how hard I tried to find help health professionals and doctors kept suggesting the bottle. Eventually I gave in. With my son I did a lot of research mainly on the Net and linked up this newsgroup and found out that my previous problem was due to a growth spurt at 5 weeks what a total waste. To think with that small piece of knowledge I could of breastfed my daughter like I am still doing with my son. Ignore what your family is saying and do what you feel is right. From what I have read the US seems to be better at knowing what is best for its children. As for solids start as late as possible both of mine were almost 6 months ,but , again in all the free stuff you get pressure from baby food companies to start at 4 months. To me Britain seems to be concerned only with making as much money out of vunerable first time parents as possible . Anita Danielle 4 and Aaron 1

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I have been nursing for a year in Britain and no matter what they say breastfeeding past the first few weeks still seems to be rare.

I think the breastfeeding initiation rate i.e. those starting to breastfeed after the birth is about 62% in this country.  Unfortunately this drops dramatically in the first 6 weeks and by 6 months I think that only about 24% of mums still breastfeed.  I’m not 100% sure of my statistics here, but I know that the first 2 weeks are when people are most likely to stop. As in the previous posts the guidelines are to breastfeed for the first year and to start solids between 4 and 6 months.

This is true but I forgot to mention before that the World Health Organisation recommends breastfeeding for around 2 years.  This doesn’t seem to have been taken on board at all in the UK!  Those of us that do feed more than 1 year often just don’t mention it as people are shocked. However there does not seem to be much support for breastfeeding in the media. A lot of articles in magazines seem to be stuck on the difficulties and not the pleasures and there always seems to be this thread that at the first sign of trouble you give up.

This is true.  Also, mixed feeding i.e. giving both formula and breastfeeding, is becoming the norm over here. Bottlefeeding is everywhere and breastfeeding in public is never really seen anymore.

BUT some supermarkets now have breastfeeding policies.  Our local Sainsbury’s has a policy that it is OK to feed in their restaurant.  If anyone complains then it is the complainer that is moved, not the nursing mother.  Tesco also have a similar policy in their stores. Couple this with the recent advertisment for SMA follow on milk which is on prime time television and you can see the pressure on many young mums to formula feed because that is what everyone else seems to be doing.

Also, the blatant promotion of Follow on Milks – the forumla milk companies have got round not being allowed to advertise formula milk by inventing Follow on Milk which gets round the WHO code.  Until I had my first baby and got into breastfeeding, I thought that you HAD to give Follow on milk at 6 months or your baby would suffer from iron depletion!  The scaremongering tactics that say "your baby’s iron store has run out by 6 months" don’t mention that the iron in breast milk is much more easily absorbed by the body that the iron in formula. With my daughter I hit difficulties at 6 weeks and no matter how hard I tried to find help health professionals and doctors kept suggesting the bottle. Eventually I gave in. With my son I did a lot of research mainly on the Net and linked up this newsgroup and found out that my previous problem was due to a growth spurt at 5 weeks what a total waste. To think with that small piece of knowledge I could of breastfed my daughter like I am still doing with my son.

I’m sorry that you found so little support with your last baby.  For any other mums reading this, the National Childbirth Trust has trained breastfeeding counsellors that you can contact who should be only too pleased to help.  Also the La Leche League, The Association of Breastfeeding Mothers and the Breastfeeding Network all offer support and help for any breastfeeding mothers. Ignore what your family is saying and do what you feel is right. From what I have read the US seems to be better at knowing what is best for its children. As for solids start as late as possible both of mine were almost 6 months ,but , again in all the free stuff you get pressure from baby food companies to start at 4 months. To me Britain seems to be concerned only with making as much money out of vunerable first time parents as possible .

Not everyone!  Midwives on the whole are much better trained in breastfeeding now.  Where the system falls down is that the hospitals and communities are often understaffed and cannot spend the time a new mum needs to establish breastfeeding.  Also, whilst some hospitals are brilliant, others are not.  It so often seems like pot luck as to whether you get the support you need.  This is where the voluntary organisations mentioned above can play such a vital role.  Glad everything went better with your son. Thomasina Phillips Daniel 24.10.96 & Emma 15.11.98

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My SIL had a baby almost a year ago in Manchester, and in the beginning, when she was worried that she couldn’t tell how much milk she was producing, and maybe it wasn’t enough, she decided to "top him off" (another cultural difference, in America, to top someone is to kill them!) with a bottle.  Then her nurses told her that that is what they do too (approval). Her parents were completely indignant that the nurses did not tell her this in the first place.  It was as if they suspected the nurses of trying to trick her into bf-ing.  And of course (sarcasm on) ff-ing was superior since that’s what the nurses did themselves. Our nephew is a beautiful healthy boy, and SIL is an excellent mother. — Meg <snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry that you found so little support with your last baby.  For any other mums reading this, the National Childbirth Trust has trained breastfeeding counsellors that you can contact who should be only too pleased to help.  Also the La Leche League, The Association of Breastfeeding Mothers and the Breastfeeding Network all offer support and help for any breastfeeding mothers. Ignore what your family is saying and do what you feel is right. From what I have read the US seems to be better at knowing what is best for its children. As for solids start as late as possible both of mine were almost 6 months ,but , again in all the free stuff you get pressure from baby food companies to start at 4 months. To me Britain seems to be concerned only with making as much money out of vunerable first time parents as possible . Not everyone!  Midwives on the whole are much better trained in breastfeeding now.  Where the system falls down is that the hospitals and communities are often understaffed and cannot spend the time a new mum needs to establish breastfeeding.  Also, whilst some hospitals are brilliant, others are not.  It so often seems like pot luck as to whether you get the support you need.  This is where the voluntary organisations mentioned above can play such a vital role.  Glad everything went better with your son. Thomasina Phillips Daniel 24.10.96 & Emma 15.11.98

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I’m an American married to a Man City fan and we live in the US.  Yesterday DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year. Some of you will remember my stories from a month ago of my in-laws visit and the pressure from FIL  to put Abby on formula "for my convenience." The reason this is coming up is b/c my SIL (who has a 10 mo. old) has a friend who was due the same time as we were, with her second child.  The friend gave up bf-ing very early due to mastitis.  This friend gained over 5 stone with her pg, which my SIL told me was "all baby."  (This friend is not slim to begin with.)  Now she has a heavy baby, and has started to give it solids b/c she feels (was told?) that formula is not enough to feed her "big baby."     SIL was concerned b/c Abby is also a big baby (9 lbs. 13 oz, 23 inches long at birth, 13 lbs 13 oz and 25 1/2 inches at 2 months). Both DH and I have food allergies and I would really like to delay giving Abby solids until she is 6 mo. old.  Is there any British source to back this up? SIL started her baby on solids at 4 months and he has an egg allergy. Plus Abby and I will probably be staying with the in-laws when she is 6 mo. old and we will probably be going through this stop-bf-ing-my-granddaughter thing all over again.  DH will be at a conference and so we will be staying there w/out him. Are the leaflets at Boots really good about supporting bf-ing or is it a case of it’s best but if you can’t do it, here’s what you do? What is SMA (from the formula thread)? DH and I discuss the research on this and I thought we had agreed but he gets off the phone with his family and wants to know why don’t we give Abby formula, why don’t we give her solids?  and we’ve been through this.  I feel like I’m doing something terrific for their granddaughter/niece, and they act as though I’m neglecting her.  All I can do, it seems, is keep saying that Abby’s growing beautifully, is healthy, and that her dr is very pleased with her progress.  For crying out loud, she’s off the charts for everything.  I’d hate to see what pressure I would get if she wasn’t such an Amazon. When they were here for a visit, DH didn’t want me to defend the benefits of bf-ing b/c he was concerned it would imply criticism of his sister’s choice to ff.  But they don’t seem to hesitate to criticise our choice! TIA — Meg, who needed to vent

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Current UK Department of Health recommendations are that solids be introduced sometime between 4-6 months.  There is evidence that in babies with a family history of allergies i.e. asthma, eczema and food allergies that delaying starting solids until 6 months is best.  Certainly if you do have a family history of allergies it is wise to avoid anything with cow’s milk in it.  UK recommendations are that you can use cows milk in cooking from 6 months and it can be given as a drink from 12 months.  BUT if there is any history of allergy it is wise to avoid it for as long as you can. There is a strong history of allergies in our family and I breastfed my little boy until 17 months when I got pregnant again.  I also introduced solids at 5.5 months and didn’t give him anything with cows milk in it until he was 12months, which is a bit more cautious that our UK Department of Health recommendations, but no more cautious than things I have read elsewhere.  Babies do not have mature enough digestive systems to cope with solids until at least 4 months and maybe later in some babies.  They may be acting hungry, but it doesn’t mean you have to give them solids – milk is fine!  It sounds as though you’re doing a brilliant job.  If you can stick to your instincts and ignore the advice you don’t want you will thank yourself later.  I know I felt similar to you as all my friends started their children on solids much earlier than I did and our families also gave us some hassle over the fact that Daniel slept in our bed and wasn’t "sleeping through the night"!  At the end of the day I realised that when we followed our instincts (and the evidence!) everyone was happier.  I think people find it challenging when you want to do something different from the way they did it – they see your different actions as a threat.  There is no need to do things a certain way just because your mother did it to you and "it never did you any harm".  There’s plenty of evidence to show that waiting until AT LEAST 4-6 months and your baby is showing interest in your food is best for baby – as late as possible for babies with allergies.  I’ll be thinking of you – I’m just going through the whole thing again with my little girl Emma who is 5 months old!  All the best. Thomasina Phillips mother to Daniel 24.10.96 and Emma 15.11.98

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m an American married to a Man City fan and we live in the US. Yesterday DH got off the phone w/ his sister and asked why don’t we start Abby on solids?  She’s not even 3 mo. old! I would like to be able to quote British guidelines on nursing, something similar to the AMA recommending bf for the first year.

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Question:

I ask this question on behalf of my 11 year old daughter – not a triathlete yet but an active soccer player, rhythmic gymnast and figure skater none-the-less. She has had several bouts with exercise-induced asthma attacks, mostly on the soccer field and ice rink. They are not necessarily severe and there has never been an episode outside of strenuous physical activity. A pirbuterol accetate inhaler provides pretty quick relief. Recently, however, while rehab-ing a nagging ankle injury (stress fracture, soft tissue impingement or ostrigonum – we’re not completely sure) we were referred to a doctor of chiropracty. He is reputable in the chiropractic world and treats other gymnasts and skaters we know (and includes "triathlete" on his list of credentials). In routine questioning, the issue of asthma came up and he somehow linked her diet to the condition. He claimed that dairy products, wheat and sugar were to blame for elevated levels of mucus in her bronchial lining which harbored and cultured bacteria responsible for the episodes. He has recommend that we remove all dairy products (milk, cheese, yogurt, meat, etc.), wheat (bread, cereal, bagels, etc.) and sugar (gatorade included!) from her diet and put her on soy-derivatives (tofu, rice milk, etc.), gluten-free buckwheat or rice breads and almond butter. No more peanut butter sandwiches, Harvest Bars, glasses of milk (skim of course), gatorade and the list goes on. This is a pretty drastic change for an 11-year old and before we force this new way of eating on her, I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience with diet-triggered, exercise-induced asthma? If so, has dietary modification worked? Would you recommend this as a remedy and, if so, can you also recommend diet plans, recipes and STORES that carry these dietary specialties (we’ve found a local grocery store that has 1/2 an isle dedicated to this type of stuff but the selection is not very big). Thanks a lot for any advice/experiences. ……. David

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I ask this question on behalf of my 11 year old daughter – not a triathlete yet but an active soccer player, rhythmic gymnast and figure skater none-the-less. She has had several bouts with exercise-induced asthma attacks… I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience with diet-triggered, exercise-induced asthma? There certainly can be a food/diet relationship to asthma (all asthmatic also have exercise-induced asthma). And it’s very individual. Unfortunately, many doctors have a long list of suspect foods they want you to eliminate, making the dietary aspect quite radical. It’s best to try and figure out which foods, if any, are offensive. Also look at the discussions we’ve had here regarding the nutrient choline and EIA. Phil Maffetone

It just stroke me that I read an article in Runners World magazine (US) in the preceding year about asthmatics and sport. Something about removing salt from food being a major ingredient in the treatment. Check out the old issues for details. -Jesper —                         Computer Science Department                         Aarhus University – Denmark

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I ask this question on behalf of my 11 year old daughter – not a triathlete yet but an active soccer player, rhythmic gymnast and figure skater none-the-less. She has had several bouts with exercise-induced asthma attacks… I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience with diet-triggered, exercise-induced asthma?

There certainly can be a food/diet relationship to asthma (all asthmatic also have exercise-induced asthma). And it’s very individual. Unfortunately, many doctors have a long list of suspect foods they want you to eliminate, making the dietary aspect quite radical. It’s best to try and figure out which foods, if any, are offensive. Also look at the discussions we’ve had here regarding the nutrient choline and EIA. Phil Maffetone

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He claimed that dairy products, wheat and sugar were to blame for elevated levels of mucus in her bronchial lining which harbored and cultured bacteria responsible for the episodes.<<< My wife has had severe asthma for 48 years-after going to a Kinesiologist and determining what diet related stuff she was affected by and then removing same-her asthma has essentially disappeared- I would try it-also for her-soy products, tomatoes, mushrooms, wheat, all milk products- peter

I also have a friend you suffered from severe asthma for 40 years and lived with a purse full of drugs.  She went on the anti-candida program (which is basically what has been discussed on this thread — no dairy, wheat, sugar, yeast products, mushrooms, vinegar etc.) and it changed her life.  She is now down to carrying one rescue inhaler, which she doesn’t have to use.  She says she lives on nuts and twigs, but is so happy to be able to breath that she doesn’t care.

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He

claimed that dairy products, wheat and sugar were to blame for elevated levels of mucus in her bronchial lining which harbored and cultured bacteria responsible for the episodes.<<< My wife has had severe asthma for 48 years-after going to a Kinesiologist and determining what diet related stuff she was affected by and then removing same-her asthma has essentially disappeared- I would try it-also for her-soy products, tomatoes, mushrooms, wheat, all milk products- peter

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The theory here falls down rather severely by the fact that asthma is very rarely linked to bacterial infection at all. For instance, even with acute severe asthma, it is rare to require treatment with an antibiotic. Excess mucous production is much more likely to be caused by bronchial inflammation rather than the other way round. There is some evidence that dairy products and other food intolerances/allergies may be linked to asthma. Though it remains a little controversial, there is evidence that bottle rather than breast fed babies are more likely to develop asthma, eczema and hey fever later in life. In addition, in some asthmatics who appear to be relatively resistant to conventional medication, there are at least anecdotal reports that dietary manipulations can be helpful, though by no means in all cases. In most asthmatics, though, there is little evidence of food allergy, and the disease should be controllable with fairly simple medication. Whilst you can play around with diet in an uncontrolled sort of way and hope to see some changes, to really look at this demands starting a rigorous exclusion diet and introducing food stepwise to be able to pick out the culprit. I would tend to agree with Bob that this is likely to be more trouble than it is worth in the majority of cases. This is particularly likely to be true in children who, unless they have rather more severe asthma, are probably more at risk from the potential nutritional deficiencies of an exclusion diet than they are from their asthma. — Rod. Discoveries are made every 15 years. Yours is particularly good; it hasn’t been made for 150 years. "The Doctors Dilemma" GB Shaw

 In routine questioning, the issue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – of asthma came up and he somehow linked her diet to the condition. He claimed that dairy products, wheat and sugar were to blame for elevated levels of mucus in her bronchial lining which harbored and cultured bacteria responsible for the episodes. Speaking as a doctor, I don’t find this a fruitful route. Firstly linking asthma to food is rather unconventional, although some of course respond to allergens like house dust mite etc. It’s very difficult to prove or disprove the link to milk protein, there are no simple tests, and a genuine exclusion diet, as you’re finding, is very difficult (especially for an eleven year old). Even if her diet is linked to her asthma, using conventional treatments would still be a far easier way to treat the asthma. Low dose steroid inhalers are a well accepted, effective, safe treatment, and speaking personally I’d far rather use this approach if it were my own child than have our lives governed by a complex dietary regime! HTH, — Bob Mortimer

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He has recommend that we remove all dairy products (milk, cheese, yogurt, meat, etc.), wheat (bread, cereal, bagels, etc.) and sugar (gatorade included!) from her diet and put her on soy-derivatives (tofu, rice milk, etc.), gluten-free buckwheat or rice breads and almond butter. No more peanut butter sandwiches, Harvest Bars, glasses of milk (skim of course), gatorade and the list goes on.

Ouch!  For an 11 year-old that sounds more like a prison sentence that a diet change!  Does it have to be so drastic?  What about breathing exercises?  Is that a possibility? I would get a second opinion before making her give up BP&J (my favourite kid food — still is) and stuff like bagels.  That to me seems a bit out of wack. But then again, I’m not the one with the Ph D. attached to my title! Regards, Matt "enjoying his peanut butter and pickle sandwiches" Fifer

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recently, however, while rehab-ing a nagging ankle injury (stress fracture, soft tissue impingement or ostrigonum – we’re not completely sure) we were referred to a doctor of chiropracty. He is reputable in the chiropractic world and treats other gymnasts and skaters we know (and includes "triathlete" on his list of credentials). In routine questioning, the issue of asthma came up and he somehow linked her diet to the condition. He claimed that dairy products, wheat and sugar were to blame for elevated levels of mucus in her bronchial lining which harbored and cultured bacteria responsible for the episodes. He has recommend that we remove all dairy products (milk, cheese, yogurt, meat, etc.), wheat (bread, cereal, bagels, etc.) and sugar (gatorade included!) from her diet and put her on soy-derivatives (tofu, rice milk, etc.), gluten-free buckwheat or rice breads and almond butter. No more peanut butter sandwiches, Harvest Bars, glasses of milk (skim of course), gatorade and the list goes on. This is a pretty drastic change for an 11-year old and before we force this new way of eating on her, I was wondering if anyone has had a similar experience with diet-triggered, exercise-induced asthma?

Speaking as a doctor, I don’t find this a fruitful route. Firstly linking asthma to food is rather unconventional, although some of course respond to allergens like house dust mite etc. It’s very difficult to prove or disprove the link to milk protein, there are no simple tests, and a genuine exclusion diet, as you’re finding, is very difficult (especially for an eleven year old). Even if her diet is linked to her asthma, using conventional treatments would still be a far easier way to treat the asthma. Low dose steroid inhalers are a well accepted, effective, safe treatment, and speaking personally I’d far rather use this approach if it were my own child than have our lives governed by a complex dietary regime! HTH, — Bob Mortimer

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Question:

I’m not aware of how much you spend on Ritalin, but the company I’m with has products that are having astounding effects on helping the body heal itself with all types of diseases.  For more info let me know…Linda

How about a co-pay of $1.00 for a two-month prescription of any medication that my doctor might prescribe for me? Gosh…I wonder if my insurance would cover your "phyto-bears" and "neutraceuticals" from Mannatech? No?  Well, if you ask me, I think it’s UNFAIR that there are any requirements of proof of efficacy and safety for any medication!! What, are they against the Free Enterprise System??? I know *I* would rather have some MLM salesperson telling me what I should be doing for my physical and mental health, rather than some old DOCTOR, for crying out loud!  I mean, those guys have spent so much time in "Med School" they COULDN’T have as good an idea as YOU do about what’s "good" for me, right? Joe Parsons — Please remove the "!" from my address to send me mail.  I do not wish to receive *any* Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE).  I will consider that altering my address for the purpose of sending such unwanted mail is willful harassment.  You *don’t* want to do that.

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I’m not aware of how much you spend on Ritalin, but the company I’m with has products that are having astounding effects on helping the body heal itself with all types of diseases.  For more info let me know…Linda

Covered by prescription, dear, unlike the miracle cure you’re peddling.  Also studied, tested and proven to work.  Where’s your studies and proof?  Oh, I’m sorry to start out right away asking the hard questions. (Rhetorical question to the regulars:)  Why on earth do they all think they are the first ones to ever try to sell anything to the unsuspecting? — Ann annbal*at*thecia.net 9 is the spam trap!

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I’m not aware of how much you spend on Ritalin, but the company I’m with has products that are having astounding effects on helping the body heal itself with all types of diseases.  For more info let me know…Linda Covered by prescription, dear, unlike the miracle cure you’re peddling.  Also studied, tested and proven to work.  Where’s your studies and proof?  Oh, I’m sorry to start out right away asking the hard questions. (Rhetorical question to the regulars:)  Why on earth do they all think they are the first ones to ever try to sell anything to the unsuspecting?

Hope springs eternal when you’re trying to make a buck……

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jmanson said: "Hope springs eternal when you’re trying to make a buck……" I think in this case, it should be "GREED springs eternal…" this string of spam has been particularly obnoxious.

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(Rhetorical question to the regulars:)  Why on earth do they all think they are the first ones to ever try to sell anything to the unsuspecting? Hope springs eternal when you’re trying to make a buck……

  I am reminded of the movie "Fitzwilly," with Dick Van Dyke.  To raise quick cash, he and his gang of con-men fan out to all the bars in the city to pull the old "Samson and Delilah" con.  One returns beaten to a pulp:  turns out he was the SECOND to visit that particular bar that day…

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I think we need legislation which makes "target posted spam" a justification in cracking cases.  I.e. if they post spam, then any hacker who is bored that day is free to have at them with no legal repercussions. — — –John Reply to jclarke at eye bee em dot net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Rhetorical question to the regulars:)  Why on earth do they all think they are the first ones to ever try to sell anything to the unsuspecting? Hope springs eternal when you’re trying to make a buck……   I am reminded of the movie "Fitzwilly," with Dick Van Dyke.  To raise quick cash, he and his gang of con-men fan out to all the bars in the city to pull the old "Samson and Delilah" con.  One returns beaten to a pulp:  turns out he was the SECOND to visit that particular bar that day…        It’s a shame these folks don’t suffer a few bruises now and then. Is there such a thing as a "cyber-shiner"?  ;)                                               -stan

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(Rhetorical question to the regulars:)  Why on earth do they all think they are the first ones to ever try to sell anything to the unsuspecting? Hope springs eternal when you’re trying to make a buck……   I am reminded of the movie "Fitzwilly," with Dick Van Dyke.  To raise quick cash, he and his gang of con-men fan out to all the bars in the city to pull the old "Samson and Delilah" con.  One returns beaten to a pulp:  turns out he was the SECOND to visit that particular bar that day…

        It’s a shame these folks don’t suffer a few bruises now and then.  Is there such a thing as a "cyber-shiner"?  ;)                                                -stan

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I think we need legislation which makes "target posted spam" a justification in cracking cases.  I.e. if they post spam, then any hacker who is bored that day is free to have at them with no legal repercussions. —

Considering how hard it is to track I don’t think they worry about it anyway…;-)

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I think we need legislation which makes "target posted spam" a justification in cracking cases.  I.e. if they post spam, then any hacker who is bored that day is free to have at them with no legal repercussions. — Considering how hard it is to track I don’t think they worry about it anyway…;-)

Awww not hard Jim, they think it is cause they relay but there is a record on ever server they touch …

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Awww not hard Jim, they think it is cause they relay but there is a record on ever server they touch …

Tell that to the guys that hit Sanford Wallace’s site…..;-)

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My 8 year old is starting a vitamin therapy plan today.  Dr says to wait 3 weeks to see results.  How long has your little one been on it?  What do the teachers say?  How is his behavior?  What kind of testing did they do to find out what vitamins he is missing from his diet?  Please email at

So will you be posting the before and after Connors summaries from the teachers, etc? — "Amid reports that the US House of Representatives’ open mail  servers were used to relay spam, a House subcommittee met  Thursday and approved legislation that effectively approves  the practice." — Deborah Scoblionkov D. C. & M. V. Sessions

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I’m not aware of how much you spend on Ritalin, but the company I’m with has products that are having astounding effects on helping the body heal itself with all types of diseases.  For more info let me know…Linda

Response:

Linda advertised: "I’m not aware of how much you spend on Ritalin, but the company I’m with has products that are having astounding effects on helping the body heal itself with all types of diseases.  For more info let me know…Linda" Linda, does the company you’re with make "astound claims about effects of healing he body of ADHD" in print? If so I would love to have a copy of it. I would forward a copy of it to the FDA, of course. Linda. This is an ADHD area. ADHD isn’t a disease, and there’s nothing to "heal." To make these claims in an ADHD area demonstrates that you know nothing about ADHD, so you’re only here to try to pick off customers. At least the manufacturers of Ritalin know something about ADHD. That gives them far more reason to be selling their product to people with ADHD than your company has. This is the kind of claim that can be made only on the internet, and even then only very carefully. Linda has been smart enough not to name the company, or the FDA might come after them for the post she made. But in e-mail, the illegal claim (it is illegal for non-pharmaceutical companies to claim that their "food supplement" products heal or treat any medical condition) can go on, and on, and on. Folks, any claim that can’t be made in the light of day — shouldn’t such claims be viewed with a heavy dollop of suspicion?

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My 8 year old is starting a vitamin therapy plan today.  Dr says to wait 3 weeks to see results.  How long has your little one been on it?  What do the teachers say?  How is his behavior?  What kind of testing did they do to find out what vitamins he is missing from his diet?  Please email at Thanks Crystal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find yourself a good Homeopathic doctor.  The first visit is quite long, Which is the very best thing about homeopathic medicine — the practitioners seem to care. but the vitamin therapy works very well.  It is healthier for my son that ritalin. It’s almost certainly true that it’s healthy for your son to take vitamins, but it is likewise almost certainly true that it has no effect on his ADD. We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food. That’s known to be unrelated to ADD.  By the way, do you know why there has been such a large increase in stomach cancer in the US over the last 20 years?  Fewer preservatives.  Luckily, you can buy them in the health-food store as antioxidants (which is what preservatives are).  Go check it out: the most common are BHA and BHT. I, of course, find the fact that the evil preservatives are considered healthy as long as they are in a health-food bottle hilariously funny.  – Dave

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Find yourself a good Homeopathic doctor.  The first visit is quite long,

Which is the very best thing about homeopathic medicine — the practitioners seem to care. but the vitamin therapy works very well.  It is healthier for my son that ritalin.

It’s almost certainly true that it’s healthy for your son to take vitamins, but it is likewise almost certainly true that it has no effect on his ADD. We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food.

That’s known to be unrelated to ADD.  By the way, do you know why there has been such a large increase in stomach cancer in the US over the last 20 years?  Fewer preservatives.  Luckily, you can buy them in the health-food store as antioxidants (which is what preservatives are).  Go check it out: the most common are BHA and BHT. I, of course, find the fact that the evil preservatives are considered healthy as long as they are in a health-food bottle hilariously funny.   — Dave

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We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food. That’s known to be unrelated to ADD.  By the way, do you know why there has been such a large increase in stomach cancer in the US over the last 20 years?  Fewer preservatives.  Luckily, you can buy them in the health-food store as antioxidants (which is what preservatives are).  Go check it out: the most common are BHA and BHT.

Don’t forget ascorbic acid. I, of course, find the fact that the evil preservatives are considered healthy as long as they are in a health-food bottle hilariously funny.   — Dave

– D. C. Sessions

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find yourself a good Homeopathic doctor. I have yet to meet anyone who had success with homeopathy to treat ADHD. Asthma, eczema etc. but not ADHD.  The first visit is quite long, but the vitamin therapy works very well. Vitamin therapy? I thought we were discussing homeopathy? They are not at all the same thing at all.  It is healthier for my son that ritalin. What’s healthy about untreated ADHD? Unless he hasn’t got ADHD, ofcourse. We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food. (That’s really hard) but it makes a big difference. I was on a list once, where a woman went crazy because some flour she bought had "ascorbic acid" in it, and she wanted to know what this dangerous acid was that they are now adding to food. "All" additives and preservatives is a big "all" – I find it hard to understand why a huge group of unrelated chemicals could all have the same effect, let alone believe that it somehow makes ADHD worse or even causes it. Just for the record, I am allergic to a particular green food colouring (ended up in hospital because of it), but that is *one* chemical, KWIM? However, now that we are on track, it only costs about $50 per month to maintain all the costs of his vitamins. I’d consider that extremely expensive. If you are willing to make the effort, it is well worth it. Effort? I would suggest it’s more about money than effort. I hate the subtle suggestion that if we don’t try it, it’s because we aren’t willing to make the "effort".  From one satisfied mom. If not smug. — Anna Hayward

  ANNA         HI   I want to ask  you what kind of vitamin do you use ?   how much ?    . thank you             MARIE

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 ANNA         HI   I want to ask  you what kind of vitamin do you use ?   how much ?    . thank you             MARIE

I don’t think it was me you really want to ask this, since I have stated I don’t believe vitamins or homeopathy work for ADHD. However, I do take a general multi-vitamin/multi-mineral, salmon fish- oil and evening primrose oil. It seems to help my mood which might be due to hormonal fluctuations, but even if it doesn’t, it’s good for my heart and I read someone it makes nursing babies brainier I take an average kind of dose, according to the instructions on the bottles. It’s not much help for ADHD – for an "all natural alternative to Ritalin", I suggest a mug (nay bucket) of espresso plus a bar of Lindt Semi-sweet chocolate, after a good work out at the gym and while listening to Beethoven’s "Ode to Joy" at full blast on your hifi :-^ Or you could try bungee jumping. — Anna Hayward

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JMO– heck w/ spending your $$ on vitamins.  Save it up and spend it on medical treatment that works. Later, Pam – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone tried vitamin therapy for AD/HD?  If so, I’d like to know what vitamins were helpful.  Also, I’m inquiring for an adult male that has AD/HD and doesn’t have insurance so can’t afford Ritalin right now?

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Find yourself a good Homeopathic doctor.  The first visit is quite long, but the vitamin therapy works very well.  It is healthier for my son that ritalin. We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food. (That’s really hard) but it makes a big difference.  However, now that we are on track, it only costs about $50 per month to maintain all the costs of his vitamins.    If you are willing to make the effort, it is well worth it.   From one satisfied mom.

Response:

Find yourself a good Homeopathic doctor.

I have yet to meet anyone who had success with homeopathy to treat ADHD. Asthma, eczema etc. but not ADHD.  The first visit is quite long, but the vitamin therapy works very well.

Vitamin therapy? I thought we were discussing homeopathy? They are not at all the same thing at all.  It is healthier for my son that ritalin.

What’s healthy about untreated ADHD? Unless he hasn’t got ADHD, ofcourse. We also have used a reduction of all additives and presevatives in his food. (That’s really hard) but it makes a big difference.

I was on a list once, where a woman went crazy because some flour she bought had "ascorbic acid" in it, and she wanted to know what this dangerous acid was that they are now adding to food. "All" additives and preservatives is a big "all" – I find it hard to understand why a huge group of unrelated chemicals could all have the same effect, let alone believe that it somehow makes ADHD worse or even causes it. Just for the record, I am allergic to a particular green food colouring (ended up in hospital because of it), but that is *one* chemical, KWIM? However, now that we are on track, it only costs about $50 per month to maintain all the costs of his vitamins.  

I’d consider that extremely expensive. If you are willing to make the effort, it is well worth it.

Effort? I would suggest it’s more about money than effort. I hate the subtle suggestion that if we don’t try it, it’s because we aren’t willing to make the "effort".  From one satisfied mom.

If not smug. — Anna Hayward

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Has anyone tried vitamin therapy for AD/HD?  If so, I’d like to know what vitamins were helpful.  Also, I’m inquiring for an adult male that has AD/HD and doesn’t have insurance so can’t afford Ritalin right now?

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If you don’t have money for ritalin I probably wouldn’t waste it on vitamins. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone tried vitamin therapy for AD/HD?  If so, I’d like to know what vitamins were helpful.  Also, I’m inquiring for an adult male that has AD/HD and doesn’t have insurance so can’t afford Ritalin right now?

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Has anyone tried vitamin therapy for AD/HD?  If so, I’d like to know what vitamins were helpful.  Also, I’m inquiring for an adult male that has AD/HD and doesn’t have insurance so can’t afford Ritalin right now?

The alleged vitamins will cost more and do nothing. There have been no studies that show that ADD is even remotely related to vitamin deficiencies.

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Has anyone tried vitamin therapy for AD/HD?

Only if they didn’t want beneficial results. If so, I’d like to  know what vitamins were helpful.  

NONE Also, I’m inquiring for an adult male that has AD/HD and doesn’t have insurance so can’t afford Ritalin right now?

The cost will depend on the dosage that he needs to reach a theraputic level of medication.  He should explain his cost concerns about to the prescribing doctor so that the titration (series of trials to determine the correct dose) will take the minimum amount of time.   Please keep in mind that if the cost ran to $3.50 per day, that would be less than a pack of cigarettes, or a couple of beers at the local tavern.   — Martin G. Diehl I am what I am.  All opinions expressed within are strictly my own. If Ziggy says "Time is what keeps everything from happening at once", and Newton teaches that Gravity brings all matter together, could we say that Time and Gravity have an antagonistic relationship?

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Question:

Chiropractic:  Supposedly 85% of endo women have their tailbone out of place, and "setting" it stops the symptoms..  To set it normally requires reaching inside the rectum, and hardly anyone does it.  Chiropractors can’t or won’t, MD’s don’t believe in it.   Osteopaths may occasionally do it. One chiropractor I work for does an external adjustment,  puts his finger at the base of the tailbone and gives a little jerk of the skin, it seems to help set it.

Dear Donna, I had chiropractors attempt to set mine w/ out success for a few years due to lower back pain.  I had a friend who was a massage therapist who took a special course on how to take that arch out of the lower back (it did not involve reaching inside the rectum).  i was amazed at how easily she did it.  I could not remember ever feeling my lower back touch the table, floor, bed, whatever without having my knees bent.  What a great feeling!  Unfortunately, it didn’t last very long and she moved to Maine… I’m a little sceptical of the "Yeast Connection". I went to an alternative dr several yrs back who subscribed to this theory and got the feeling he was a quack.  (Confirmed by others later).  He said i had high amounts of yeast in my blood and wanted me to take expensive, unauthorized treatments.  My GP said any woman who had ever had vaginal yeast infections would test positive for this because we have the antibodies in our blood.  I did try the diet for awhile and lost a lot of weight on it, but like most diets, i found it impossible to stick to for very long.  This was several yrs ago…is there any new info out on this? Thanks for the input. XOMichelleA

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         I’m into alternative health and I have always noted that official "support" groups always toe the MD line.  There is an enormous amount of info on alternative treatments for many syndromes.  Endo is one of them. My mother had endo so I keep up with it all I can.  There are alternative views of many of the symptoms I see mentioned in your messages.  I will list a few, and if interested in more, let me know.  Here goes:   Chronic candidiasis: causes IBS symptoms, abdominal pain, bloating and tenderness, fatigue.  It is somehow involved in many cases of endo.  Find a copy of The Yeast Connection by Dr.  William Crook and check out the questionnaire.  Try the cure, takes about 2 weeks.  I can give LOTS more info on Candida and latest tx. Trigger points:  When irritated long enough, nerves will keep sending messages even when the cause is gone.  This is one reason pain can go on after surgery.  It’s easy to treat yourself.   Chiropractic:  Supposedly 85% of endo women have their tailbone out of place, and "setting" it stops the symptoms..  To set it normally requires reaching inside the rectum, and hardly anyone does it.  Chiropractors can’t or won’t, MD’s don’t believe in it.   Osteopaths may occasionally do it. One chiropractor I work for does an external adjustment,  puts his finger at the base of the tailbone and gives a little jerk of the skin, it seems to help set it.  Also a torsioned pelvis will alter the relative position of the tailbone, so that’s something any chiropractor can treat.  How to find a good honest chiropractor:  Avoid all with big ads.  The best have so many patient referrals they don’t advertise.  Refuse x-rays.  The best don’t care, the crooked make big bucks off them.           You all let me know if you want to know more.  I can type on this thing all night, but not if no one is going to try any of it.  Donna

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Thanks Michelle, It’s about time there was mention of endo and fibromyalgia is the same paragraph. Now if I could only get the docs to notice this. Hugs, Birgit http://members.aol.com/GittiO/home.html

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Hi All, Just came across this article by Marl Lou Ballweg when checking out some of Antonia’s links.  Thought the following paragraph was interesting in light of the recent question on Mitral valve Prolapse and Tricia’s mononucleosis and allergic reactions. XOMichelleA Here’s the quote: "In the new picture of the disease which is emerging, one sees not only the traditional symptoms of endometriosis — chronic pelvic pain, pain with sex, gastrointestinal and bladder problems, infertility, and others — but also high rates of atopic (allergic) diseases in these individuals and their families including allergies, food intolerances, asthma, eczema, and sometimes debilitating sensitivities to environmental chemicals such as perfumes, cigarette smoke, cleaning agents and others;5,6 a tendency to infections and mononucleosis;1,7 problems with Candida albicans;6 mitral valve prolapse;7,8 fibromyalgia9 and chronic fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome;10 and a greater risk for autoimmune disorders including lupus11 and Hashimoto’s thyroiditis.12"

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My pain is on one side and sort of radiates down my leg.  My back also hurts a lot of the time also.  Pain from my period isn’t that bad but ovulation seemed to be really bad.   I’ve been going to a chiropractor for yrs.  I can honestly say he does help my low back pain and for some odd reason, it helps with the IBS symptoms.   Just my 2 cents Sabby

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Osteopathic manipulation I was diagnosed with endometriosis in April of 1992 and have had 2 laparoscopies since. I am the proud, contented mother of 3 children who came into our family through adoption (a 31/2 yr-old and 18 mo-old twins)! I have put aside trying to get pregnent but still have suffered from almost daily pain– a dull, tired ache in my pelvis and upper thighs. I began seeing an osteopath (who also happens to be an OB/GYN) a few months ago and have felt an amazing difference in the level of my pain since he "adjusted" my back. I will now go every month to have him "whack my back around," as I like to call it. I hear mostly about women suffering from stabbing pain– does my description of my pain sound familiar to anyone? I have more pain when I have been on my feet a lot (which is almost always) and have lots of nausea around ovulation time. My periods are painful on the first and second day, but the pain is no worse than any other time of the month. I now take Ortho-cept continuously (rarely a break for a period. Does this sound familiar to anyone? I have never read about anyone whose endo sounds like mine in any of the many books that I have read and am new to the Net. Jenny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m into alternative health and I have always noted that official "support" groups always toe the MD line.  There is an enormous amount of info on alternative treatments for many syndromes.  Endo is one of them. My mother had endo so I keep up with it all I can.  There are alternative views of many of the symptoms I see mentioned in your messages.  I will list a few, and if interested in more, let me know.  Here goes: Chronic candidiasis: causes IBS symptoms, abdominal pain, bloating and tenderness, fatigue.  It is somehow involved in many cases of endo.  Find a copy of The Yeast Connection by Dr.  William Crook and check out the questionnaire.  Try the cure, takes about 2 weeks.  I can give LOTS more info on Candida and latest tx. Trigger points:  When irritated long enough, nerves will keep sending messages even when the cause is gone.  This is one reason pain can go on after surgery.  It’s easy to treat yourself. Chiropractic:  Supposedly 85% of endo women have their tailbone out of place, and "setting" it stops the symptoms..  To set it normally requires reaching inside the rectum, and hardly anyone does it.  Chiropractors can’t or won’t, MD’s don’t believe in it.   Osteopaths may occasionally do it. One chiropractor I work for does an external adjustment,  puts his finger at the base of the tailbone and gives a little jerk of the skin, it seems to help set it.  Also a torsioned pelvis will alter the relative position of the tailbone, so that’s something any chiropractor can treat.  How to find a good honest chiropractor:  Avoid all with big ads.  The best have so many patient referrals they don’t advertise.  Refuse x-rays.  The best don’t care, the crooked make big bucks off them. You all let me know if you want to know more.  I can type on this thing all night, but not if no one is going to try any of it.  Donna

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One good way to align the tailbone / lower spine:  Lay on your back with your knees bent, have a friend or partner try to pull your knees apart while you resist.   I also agree that many women who have endo have problems with yeast infections, and that many people do have the antibodies in their blood. Always beware of people who try to sell you expensive vitamins, herbs, etc. To help combat yeast:  Stay away from yeasty products, milk, dairy products, breads, nuts.  And take garlic and acidophilus or multidophilus. Ruth Ruth’s Page – Endometriosis & Dioxin http://www.frontiernet.net/~ruthb

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Question:

And I used to be articulate! Charlotte LeFleur – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word. LOL… you get it back in 5 seconds?  Sometimes I lose a word altogether… then may finally get it back the next day.  (you’d think a person who speaks 4 languages wouldn’t have this problem, but I sure do, not to mention tongue lock when I try to go from one language to another <G) LadyAndy2

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When I told my husband that my memory lapses are a result of the arthritis (told him I read it here, so it must be true)  He laughed!    Somehow I don’t think he is buying it.   But I do find the information comforting. Charlotte Le Fleur – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to reply, as a representative from the younger crowd. I have been experiencing memory problems for about 10 years. And I am now 27. I really do think it’s related to either the drugs or the disease itself. I do not think it’s related to the pain intensity, though it might have some effect. My arthritis is pretty stable with my medications, and I still have the memory symptoms. For me, it’s not just a matter of being preoccupied (though this does happen at times. I think everyone gets that). My husband can’t stand it. I will tell him a story about a kid at work and sometimes lees than five minutes later, I’ll try to tell it again. I do get the feeling that maybe I related the story, but I’m not sure. So I’ll ask him: "did I tell you about…?" The answer is usually yes. Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word. So, while memory problems can definitely be just from getting older, it can also be a result of the arthritis as well… —Ali life is what happens when you’re making other plans…

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word. LOL… you get it back in 5 seconds?  Sometimes I lose a word altogether… then may finally get it back the next day.  (you’d think a person who speaks 4 languages wouldn’t have this problem, but I sure do, not to mention tongue lock when I try to go from one language to another <G) LadyAndy2

Just as a point of interest, I learned recently that cold weather and stress can cause a person who has english as their second language to completely forget it. It was related to me by a woman whose job is to help people in hospital who don’t speak any english or very little. It happened to her and she speaks english fluently (as a second language) but her son had an emergency at the hospital and she couldn’t remember a word of english in the admitting department. Luckily someone came along who recognised her and helped her out. I this this could be valuable information for anyone. By the way my sister and I were just talking about the word loss problem. She’s three years younger than I (48) and has no chronic illness or meds to blame it on. I feel better already. Catherine "And the beat goes on."

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Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word.

LOL… you get it back in 5 seconds?  Sometimes I lose a word altogether… then may finally get it back the next day.  (you’d think a person who speaks 4 languages wouldn’t have this problem, but I sure do, not to mention tongue lock when I try to go from one language to another <G) LadyAndy2

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HI all: I am wondering about side effects if taking Ginkgo Biloba with any of the drugs we are already taking??  Was reading wonderful things about this Dietary Supplement. Nocki

According to Dr. Woolley, our resident herb expert here at BYU, Ginko Biloba is a natural ephedrine (stimulant) and can interact with a lot of meds.  Talk to your doctor before starting it, and watch carefully for any changes in your behavior, moods, or disease. Walt Hanks

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I have been taking Ginseng for my short term memory loss with very good results…I shoud say excellent results….Needless to say my family is pleased )))) Ginkgo Biloba is said to be good for memory loss too.  Anybody ever try it?(and no I don’t sell it)

I think it’s the same thing…. isn’t it??? Does anybody know??

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I have O/A and short term memory loss also, but I am 60 yrs old, and I Biloba for it and it has helped a lot. Best of luck, Hugh

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I think it’s the same thing…. isn’t it??? Does anybody know??

nope, two different things. according to Prescription for Nutrional Healing (the only book i have that covers this stuff <g): Ginkgo Bilboa is made from leaves, contains ginkgolides and heterosides, and improves brain function by increasing blood flow, circulation and oxygenation. good for depression, headaches, memory loss and tinnitis, possibly muscle cramps.  also may be beneficial for asthma, eczema and heart and kidney disorders.  take for at least 2 weeks for best results. Ginseng is made from roots.  it contains arabinoe, calcium, camphor, eleutherosides, gineosides, iron, mucilage, panaxosides, resin, saponin, starch, vitamins A, B1, B12 and E.  strengthens the adrenal and reproductive glands.  enhances immune function, promotes lung function and stimulates the appetite.  useful for bronchits, circulatory problems, diabetes, infertility, lack of energy, and stress.  used by athletes for body strengthening.  caution: should not be used by those with hypoglycemia, high blood pressure or heart disorders. got all thatt? <g  and remember [DISCLAIMER] this is from the book by the Balchs, not me:) Shelley

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According to Dr. Woolley, our resident herb expert here at BYU, Ginko Biloba is a natural ephedrine (stimulant) and can interact with a lot of meds.  Talk to your doctor before starting it, and watch carefully for any changes in your behavior, moods, or disease. Walt Hanks

 Thanks for mentioning this I took Ginko Biloba for my memory problems and it interacted with my asthma medication and made me jittery and unable to sleep. Some asthma meds have ephedera in them already and it certainly made my sleep problem worse.  It cleared out in a couple of days. — Celia "Any landing you can walk away from is a good one." Super Chicken

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I have it too, think it’s because I’m always tired and in pain… — Best regards / Med vennlig hilsen,       Aase Marit ))))))            ("Aw-Se-Mareet" from Norway) http://w1.2380.telia.com/~u238000263/flaker/docs/index.html

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Ginseng is made from roots.  it contains arabinoe, calcium, camphor, eleutherosides, gineosides, iron, mucilage, panaxosides, resin, saponin, starch, vitamins A, B1, B12 and E.  strengthens the adrenal and reproductive glands.  enhances immune function, promotes lung function and stimulates the appetite.  useful for bronchits, circulatory problems, diabetes, infertility, lack of energy, and stress.  used by athletes for body strengthening.  caution: should not be used by those with hypoglycemia, high blood pressure or heart disorders.

I thought there was a reason I stayed away from Ginseng. For any of you taking DMARDS it is an immune boosting drug and therefore a no-no. Catherine "And the beat goes on."

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I have it too, think it’s because I’m always tired and in pain…

There seem to be some times when I just get kind of detached when things are hurting more than usual.  It gets hard to focus then… like my brain is busy elsewhere. LadyAndy2

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I have it too, think it’s because I’m always tired and in pain… There seem to be some times when I just get kind of detached when things are hurting more than usual.  It gets hard to focus then… like my brain is busy elsewhere.

Short term memory loss is also a typical symptom of a sleep disorder.  Chronic pain can definitely mess up your sleep, as can certain pain medications.  If this is a severe problem, you might consult a sleep therapist.  Be sure to let her/him know about your problems with arthritis or other pain, and what meds you are taking. — DO NOT SEND UNSOLICITED BULK MAIL TO THIS ADDRESS

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Hello everyone! This is my first time writing to this group and I am wondering if I could get some feedback to a question I have.  I have in the last few months had was wondering if anyone else is experiencing this problem possibly due to the disease itself or medication???  I want to know if it is attributed to these things or if I should be looking for some other reason as to why this is happening.  Thank you! Net

Huh?  What was the question again? —- The Skipper To reply remove "remove".

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 I have in the last few months had was wondering if anyone else is experiencing this problem possibly due to the disease itself or medication???

Megan, I don’t know about the disease or medication….I just know about getting older in general……I’ve had trouble with short term memory for over 10 years. Actually now, it’s better.  I remember walking across my kitchen to the fridge and not remembering why I went there.  What helped me was to backtrack.  It just plain frustrating, but it happened to almost all of my female friends in the same age range.  I’ll be 57 on May 4th.  

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Oh my – have you been at my house lately????? I can’t remember, but it certainly sounds like you know me well.  :) I think mine is a combination of sleep deprivation, pain, over work, and preoccupation.  Let’s see… did I miss anything?  What were we talking about???

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just wanted to reply, as a representative from the younger crowd. I have been experiencing memory problems for about 10 years. And I am now 27. I really do think it’s related to either the drugs or the disease itself. I do not think it’s related to the pain intensity, though it might have some effect. My arthritis is pretty stable with my medications, and I still have the memory symptoms. For me, it’s not just a matter of being preoccupied (though this does happen at times. I think everyone gets that). My husband can’t stand it. I will tell him a story about a kid at work and sometimes lees than five minutes later, I’ll try to tell it again. I do get the feeling that maybe I related the story, but I’m not sure. So I’ll ask him: "did I tell you about…?" The answer is usually yes.   Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word. So, while memory problems can definitely be just from getting older, it can also be a result of the arthritis as well… —Ali life is what happens when you’re making other plans…

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I just wanted to reply, as a representative from the younger crowd. I have been experiencing memory problems for about 10 years. And I am now 27. I really do think it’s related to either the drugs or the disease itself. I do not think it’s related to the pain intensity, though it might have some effect. My arthritis is pretty stable with my medications, and I still have the memory symptoms. For me, it’s not just a matter of being preoccupied (though this does happen at times. I think everyone gets that). My husband can’t stand it. I will tell him a story about a kid at work and sometimes lees than five minutes later, I’ll try to tell it again. I do get the feeling that maybe I related the story, but I’m not sure. So I’ll ask him: "did I tell you about…?" The answer is usually yes.   Another thing that has really affected me, particularly in recent years, is naming difficulty. Words will just slip from my tongue. And it’s not just names, but simple everyday words. It can take my up to five seconds to retrieve the word. So, while memory problems can definitely be just from getting older, it can also be a result of the arthritis as well… —Ali life is what happens when you’re making other plans…

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I have been taking Ginseng for my short term memory loss with very good results…I shoud say excellent results….Needless to say my family is pleased ))))

Ginkgo Biloba is said to be good for memory loss too.  Anybody ever try it?(and no I don’t sell it)

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HI all: I am wondering about side effects if taking Ginkgo Biloba with any of the drugs we are already taking??  Was reading wonderful things about this Dietary Supplement. Nocki – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking Ginseng for my short term memory loss with very good results…I shoud say excellent results….Needless to say my family is pleased )))) Ginkgo Biloba is said to be good for memory loss too.  Anybody ever try it?(and no I don’t sell it)

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I have in the last few months had Net, My mind is like a sieve lately — short term and long term.  It does get maddening at times and my family has a LOT of fun kidding me about it.  I don’t know whether it’s the disease or the meds, but I assume that it is one or the other.  I just try to take it in stride, but I get frustrated too.  You are not alone!!! Sue

I have been taking Ginseng for my short term memory loss with very good results…I shoud say excellent results….Needless to say my family is pleased )))) You can get it in any health food store and I think some supermarkets may carry it now in their health section… It has worked for me, it might do the same for you….           good Luck,   Trixie

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I have in the last few months had a lot of difficulty with my

you didn’t mention which disease(s) you have or what meds you take, so it’s kind of a tough call… but, yes, memory problems do happen with some conditions (it’s one of the listed symptoms of fibromyalgia, for example).  and poor sleep and/or high pain levels can definitely make you "foggy". meds can also mess with your memory — pain meds (narcotics, anyone?), anti-depressants, etc.  and, as someone else mentioned, drug interactions can do it, too. you should certainly mention it to your doctor… and also work on coping strategies (writing things down, keeping an appt book, etc). Shelley

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I have in the last few months had

Net, My mind is like a sieve lately — short term and long term.  It does get maddening at times and my family has a LOT of fun kidding me about it.  I don’t know whether it’s the disease or the meds, but I assume that it is one or the other.  I just try to take it in stride, but I get frustrated too.  You are not alone!!! Sue

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I have in the last few months had

I have it.Not sure if its the meds or just RA fog. My kids make fun of me! Keep Smilin’ ~krissy "The most thoroughly wasted of all days is that  in which one has not laughed." Nicolas Chamfort

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The first thing you should do is to speak with you doctor about this. There are so many possible causes for memory (and similar) problems that it would be exceedingly difficult for even a medical expert to try to diagnose this without knowing ALL of the meds you take (including over the counter ones), your family history, your home and work environments and then having tests done. Many things which we fail to take into account can cause real problems for us. I had a girlfriend who was on anti-depressants. She started to develop hay fever and tried taking an over the counter anti-histamine. She very soon started to act rather strange. I looked the meds up on a home medical CD ("Medical Housecall") and found that a possible interaction of anti-depressants and anti-histamines is paranoia. As soon as she stopped the anti-histamine she started acting normal again. "When you’re up to your ass in alligators it’s hard to remember that your job is to drain the swamp." Norman Lampert

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Hello everyone! This is my first time writing to this group and I am wondering if I could get some feedback to a question I have.  I have in the last few months had was wondering if anyone else is experiencing this problem possibly due to the disease itself or medication???  I want to know if it is attributed to these things or if I should be looking for some other reason as to why this is happening.  Thank you! Net

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Question:

Probably just Scudamore’s reading comprehension problem again.

For my own sanity, due to my limited intelligence, I was forced to condense all of the whaleto posts in 3 words as follows: "Don’t vaccinate hibernate"   LMAO — |   Engineers solve problems — it’s what we do.  | |            Do you want to be a problem?         |

– John Basham AKA VAK Before you buy.

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Brent Taylor’s study has been quoted by the vaccine authorities in the US and the UK as the absolute proof that there is no autism/MMR connection, in spite of the fact that the authors themselves have conceded that the study has methodological problems.

This shows an incorrect understanding of science. Rather, the study has been quoted as showing that there is no evidence that vaccination causes vaccination. And if it does, the effect is almost certainly small. However, scientists are always open to new data. To a true scientist, there is no absolute proof of anything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the March meeting of The Royal Statistical Society, Dr. James Roger reported that he "reviewed the evidence against a possible link, but concluded that the major published evidence was non-informative and that published data were consistent with MMR causing an appreciable proportion of current cases." Our own communication, together with Dr. Roger’s and Mr. David Thrower’s letters to The Lancet (July 8th issue) detailed the multiple shortcomings of the Taylor study. Dr. Taylor can talk till hell freezes over, but the facts are: 1. Autism has increased in epidemic proportions in the UK and the US in the last few years since the MMR vaccine has been widely used.

Wrong. The reported incidence of autism has gone up. However, this is not proof that the actual incidence of autism has increased. It is likely that at least some of the increase is due to better reporting and better understanding of autism. Also, the reported incidence of autism has been increasing before MMR came into use. So the increase appears to have nothing to with MMR. The graphs in the Taylor report are consistant with this view. 2. The presence of measles of vaccine origin in the intestinal wall has been confirmed by independent researchers using extremely sophisticated and accurate procedures.

So what? 3. The Taylor study is the first and only study ever published in The Lancet whose authors have refused to divulge basic data and raw figures. Such a refusal renders Dr. Taylor and associates personally responsible for their published findings.

Incorrect. The authors of a study are always responsible for the data, whether they are divulved or not. You need an understanding of science John. Many parents are now vaccinating their children with MMR because they have been assured by the vaccine authorities that the Taylor study has unequivocally ruled out any connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. When their children become affected by autism, these parents will now know who to blame.

Actually, they won’t. There is no one to blame for a child with autism. Sometimes bad things happen to good people. This does not make vaccines responsible. Jeff Utz Raymond Gallup, President Autism Autoimmunity Project http://www.gti.net/truegrit/ The Lancet is at http://www.thelancet.com/

Before you buy.

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Brent Taylor’s study has been quoted by the vaccine authorities in the US and the UK as the absolute proof that there is no autism/MMR connection,

Quotes please?  All of the published cites say that there is no evidence of a causal connection, not that there is evidence of no connection. Probably just Scudamore’s reading comprehension problem again.               in spite of the fact that the authors themselves have conceded that the study has methodological problems. This shows an incorrect understanding of science. Rather, the study has been quoted as showing that there is no evidence that vaccination causes vaccination.

ITYM " … causes autism."                     And if it does, the effect is almost certainly small. However, scientists are always open to new data. To a true scientist, there is no absolute proof of anything.

Well, certainly no absolute proof of a negative.  It’s in principle impossible to prove conclusively that "X never causes Y" because the test would take literally forever.  (Read ‘never’ as "if you searched forever you woudn’t have one instance."  Which is just a wee bit hard to test, no?) At the March meeting of The Royal Statistical Society, Dr. James Roger reported that he "reviewed the evidence against a possible link, but concluded that the major published evidence was non-informative and that published data were consistent with MMR causing an appreciable proportion of current cases."

In other words, the published data don’t prove that autism ISN’T caused by vaccination, or air travel, or grandparental television exposure. Well, DUH! Our own communication, together with Dr. Roger’s and Mr. David Thrower’s letters to The Lancet (July 8th issue) detailed the multiple shortcomings of the Taylor study. Dr. Taylor can talk till hell freezes over, but the facts are: 1. Autism has increased in epidemic proportions in the UK and the US in the last few years since the MMR vaccine has been widely used. Wrong. The reported incidence of autism has gone up. However, this is not proof that the actual incidence of autism has increased. It is likely that at least some of the increase is due to better reporting and better understanding of autism.

Besides which, there are known risk factors for autism (notably parental age at conception) which AFAICT haven’t been accounted for in the references to gross incidence.  Before going off on wild speculation about purely conjectural factors such as vaccination it just might be a good idea to account for KNOWN factors first. Also, the reported incidence of autism has been increasing before MMR came into use. So the increase appears to have nothing to with MMR. The graphs in the Taylor report are consistant with this view. 2. The presence of measles of vaccine origin in the intestinal wall has been confirmed by independent researchers using extremely sophisticated and accurate procedures. So what?

Actually, those "extremely sophisticated procedures" were inaccurate, as noted by experts on the subject.  Tests less prone to false positives have totally failed to reproduce the reported results. Not that you’re likely to hear that from Scudamore. — |   Engineers solve problems — it’s what we do.  | |            Do you want to be a problem?         |

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ANN COOTE, 40, is co-founder of the pressure group JABS (Justice, Awareness, Basic Support) which represents 800 families who say their children are vaccine-damaged. Ann’s 10-year-old daughter Rachel suffers severe epilepsy as a result of MMR. Sunday Mirror, Aug 24, 1997 PAYING THE PRICE:  Little Rachel is only 10, but the MMR vaccine has left her an epileptic with the mind of a four-year-old, according to her mum Ann RACHEL was one of the first children to have the MMR vaccination, – she was 18 months old. Even then I was wary of it. When I took Rachel to the clinic in February 1989, I was told by the nurses that MMR had been used in America and there were no possible side-effects. In fact Rachel was given a form of MMR called Pluserix, which was never used in America and was withdrawn in the UK in 1992 because it was linked with cases of mumps-meningitis. The following day Rachel was very irritable – not her usual loveable self. My GP advised plenty of fluids and paracetamol to bring the temperature down. But she didn’t get better. Her temperature was 104.  She was going off her food. Her face started to swell up and she gave out frightening, high-pitched screams. On the ninth day I took her back to the GP, who said she had all the symptoms of meningitis without the stiff neck. He gave .me antibiotics and told me to keep a close eye on her. I took her home, gave her the pills and she fell asleep on my knee. Then she stopped breathing. I was terrified. The diagnosis was that she had had a convulsion, probably related to MMR. By the next day she was covered from head to toe in a measles-like rash.  I said she couldn’t have measles because she had had MMR. I was told it was the vaccination coming through. It got worse. A nurse asked me if Rachel could talk. I said of -course she could. But by the time we got her out of hospital she had lost her speech.. She went from being a happy-go-lucky girl to a child who cried all night, was silent in the day, and confused about who her parents and brothers were. Three months after she had MMR she developed mumps, so she actually had two of the three diseases she was vaccinated against. She wasn’t Rachel any more. She couldn’t talk. She’d gone back into nappies. She would fall over for no reason. We found out that these were epileptic seizures. She started having 20-30 a day. Her whole life was turned around. She was put on anti-epileptic drugs to try to control the fits. At five they said she would never read or write. So she goes to a special school. When she was younger you couldn’t take her to a supermarket because she would run amok, pulling things off the shelves. Now she is 10, but she has the mind of a four-and-a-half-year-old. She is just beginning to read and write – something they never thought she’d do. She now has so many fits I couldn’t count them. Nights are worst. She wakes four or five times screaming like a baby. Although she is crying for mummy, she doesn’t know who I am for several minutes. As if all this wasn’t sapping enough, we have had a dreadfully difficult time fighting for compensation. You have to prove to the Department of Health that your child is vaccine-damaged and is more than 80 per cent disabled as a result. I know parents who have. been turned down because they say the child is 79.5 per cent disabled. Even though Rachel was. assessed at 80 per cent, we are still waiting for compensation. The Department of Health deny that MMR caused the long-term effects. They accepted that the first convulsion was caused by MMR, but because it took 12 months for her to be diagnosed as. epileptic, they said the gap was too long. We will fight on. Vaccinations were developed for the best reasons.  But parents now feel, they are playing some form of Russian roulette and they don’t want that. They want protection without risk. We believe three-in-one vaccinations should be suspended until more is known about MMR. Parents should be able to make an informed decision. Our organisation represents more than 400 children whose parents regret ever having allowed them to have MMR. They suffer from serious complaints such as autism, Crohn’s disease, arthritis, diabetes, severe learning disabilities and epilepsy. Unless there are more tests then we will end up with lots more Rachels. Interview by DAVID ROWE

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John, Because there is a group who beleives that their handicapped children were damaged by vaccines, does not mean that their handicapped children were damaged by vaccines. Often parents look for causes when there are none. Sometimes there are causes. However, how sad the story has nothing to do with whether the cause is a vaccine or not. I am sorry that the child will not be able to live a full life. However, there is nothing in the story that convinces me that the vaccine was in any way the cause of this child’s illness. And please remember, the plural of anecdote is not data. Jeff Utz Before you buy.

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Brent Taylor’s study has been quoted by the vaccine authorities in the US and the UK as the absolute proof that there is no autism/MMR connection, in spite of the fact that the authors themselves have conceded that the study has methodological problems. At the March meeting of The Royal Statistical Society, Dr. James Roger reported that he "reviewed the evidence against a possible link, but concluded that the major published evidence was non-informative and that published data were consistent with MMR causing an appreciable proportion of current cases." Our own communication, together with Dr. Roger’s and Mr. David Thrower’s letters to The Lancet (July 8th issue) detailed the multiple shortcomings of the Taylor study. Dr. Taylor can talk till hell freezes over, but the facts are: 1. Autism has increased in epidemic proportions in the UK and the US in the last few years since the MMR vaccine has been widely used. 2. The presence of measles of vaccine origin in the intestinal wall has been confirmed by independent researchers using extremely sophisticated and accurate procedures. 3. The Taylor study is the first and only study ever published in The Lancet whose authors have refused to divulge basic data and raw figures. Such a refusal renders Dr. Taylor and associates personally responsible for their published findings. Many parents are now vaccinating their children with MMR because they have been assured by the vaccine authorities that the Taylor study has unequivocally ruled out any connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. When their children become affected by autism, these parents will now know who to blame. Raymond Gallup, President Autism Autoimmunity Project http://www.gti.net/truegrit/ The Lancet is at http://www.thelancet.com/

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 http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/archive/20-10-19100-0-4-45.html Parents ‘risk losing children’ over MMR complaints ALAN MacDERMID PARENTS who claim their children have developed autism as a result of being given the controversial MMR vaccine risk having them taken away by social workers, MSPs will be told next week. A leading autism expert said yesterday that an estimated 200 such families in the UK, including Scotland, had lost their children after being accused of Munchausen’s syndrome by proxy. Dr Paul Shattock, director of the Autism Research Unit at Sunderland University, said the court orders had been carried out under cover of draconian gagging orders framed ostensibly to safeguard the identity of the children. He will lay his allegations before MSPs on Wednesday, at the launch of the Scottish Parliament Cross-Party Group on Autistic Spectrum Disorders. "There have been cases where people say their children are autistic and blame the vaccine. Then social services come and say the child is not autistic, you have made him that way because of Munchausen’s, and they take the children away," he said. The term Munchausen’s syndrome by proxy was coined to describe parents who subject their children to unnecessary medical care on the pretext of a bogus illness, in extreme cases injuring the children or making them ill in order to fit their fantasies. It is often seen as an attention-seeking device. Dr Shattock said it was now being used as a cover-up over the suspected link between the combined Measles, Mumps and Rubella vaccine, introduced in 1988, and a distinctive combination of autism and intestinal disorder described nearly three years ago by Dr Andrew Wakefield at the Royal Free Hospital in London, and which he attributed to excess strain on the immune system caused by giving all three vaccines in one jab. It has precipitated demands by parents to have each vaccine administered singly with an interlude between each, a move resisted by the Government. "It is down to pride. The medical establishment can’t admit to being wrong," said Dr Shattock. "Something is going on, whether it is vaccines, pesticides, plasticisers in food, or whatever. The research the Government has provided in defence of MMR is flawed." The Scottish Society for Autism, which will provide the professional secretariat for the all-party group, accepts that the evidence against MMR so far is anecdotal, but they want more research and, in the meantime, the option of single vaccines to be available for parents. Spokesman Bruce Tait said: "It is available elsewhere in Europe. Presumably there is a cost implication for the Government." -Oct 20th

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Two points: 1) A lawsuit, even with some sort of aid, does not mean anything, except someone is trying to get money. 2) Even if vaccines did cause these injuries, this fact does not tell us in how often these injuries are. In other words, the plural of anecdote is not data. Jeff Before you buy.

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Suing the drug companies: Isabella Thomas with Terry, six, and Michael, eight Daily Mail Oct 17, 2000 http://www.whale.to/v/mmr6.html THE Thomases, Isabella, 43, and husband Ian, 42, from Brighton, have four sons, Ian, 22, Nigel, 20, Michael, eight, and Terry, six. Ian and Nigel, both university students, had measles, mumps and rubella naturally as children, with no adverse effects. But Michael and Terry were vaccinated and had severe reactions. Both went on to develop autism and bowel disease, and the family has been awarded legal aid to sue the drugs companies who make the MMR vaccine. Isabella says: ‘By the time Michael was vaccinated, at 14 months, rumours about the MMR vaccine were beginning to surface. I questioned it, but the doctor insisted it was perfectly safe. ‘After the jab, he went pale. I took him home and he slept for an hour, but when he woke, he started screaming. He was clearly in terrible pain. The look on his face terrified me. I’d never seen a baby that scared before. ‘All the next week, he was very sleepy and I couldn’t establish eye contact with him. There were no smiles, no happy Michael. He never recovered -I’d watched the life go out of him. ‘Afterwards, he started having horrendous temperatures. He became aggressive, hyperactive and out of control. but the doctors insisted there was nothing wrong. ‘Terry was born when Michael was two. He reacted to his third round of DTP Jabs, had fits and got a got of high fevers. They thought it was petit mal – a mild form of epilepsy. ‘We saw a consultant, and he mentioned that Terry had not had his MMR. I told him I was worried about the MMR, both because of the mild fits and because of Michael. ‘He said: "Mrs Thomas, if Terry is prone to having convulsions and you don’t give him the MMR, if he catches measles and he has a convulsion, he will die." He frightened the life out of me. ‘Terry was 21 months old when he had the MMR. He was very pale afterwards and we put him in our bed so we could keep an eye on him. In the middle of the night, he gave a shout, his eyes rolled back and he went rigid. ‘The next morning, when be woke up, he’d stopped talking, stopped smiling and wouldn’t play with his toys. His eyes were dull. Again, he never recovered. ‘When Michael was three,I was told he was autistic. He was four when his bowel disease was confirmed. They refused to believe that Terry had the same condition, so he wasn’t diagnosed until he was five. ‘What’s it like living with them? They don’t sleep and can awaken up to six times a night. Both of them are in constant pain. They must have been in hospital about 30 times, and have both nearly died on occasions. ‘The medical profession will not admit that the vaccine has done this, but I constantly ask myself why I allowed my boys to have those jab.’

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would you give the MMR vaccine to your children? (Daily Mail Oct 17, 2000) NO says Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/v/donegan1.html ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

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Would you give the MMR vaccine to your children? (Daily Mail Oct 17, 2000) NO says Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/v/donegan1.html ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

Funny. The evidence suggests that vaccines actually prevent these problems. So this person should say: "Knowing what I know now, I would vaccine my children to help decrease the risk of getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, and becoming less susceptible to menigitis and chronically disabled. Vaccination is one of the best ways to protect my kids." Jeff Before you buy.

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Would you give the MMR vaccine to your children? (Daily Mail Oct 17, 2000) NO says Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/v/donegan1.html ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

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Would you give the MMR vaccine to your children? (Daily Mail Oct 17, 2000) NO says Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/v/donegan1.html ‘Knowing what I know now, I would not vaccinate my children and run the risk of them getting diabetes, asthma, eczema, becoming more susceptible to meningitis and ending up chronically disabled.’—Dr Jayne Donegan http://www.whale.to/w/donegan1.html

It’s a pity Dr Jayne Donegan didn’t study statistics a bit more when she was in school.  Her conclusions are not supported by the data she says she’s using to make them.   — David Wright :: wright at ibnets.com :: Not a Spokesman for Anyone      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants                   were standing on my shoulders."

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NEWS REPORT  Daily Telegraph BRITISH doctors have discovered a new bowel disease in children that they believe causes  autism and that could be triggered by the vaccination for measles, mumps and rubella.

Dr. Edwin Cook, associate professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at the University of Chicago, told Reuters that, "There’s nothing about this paper that tests whether MMR is related to autism, and I’m afraid that they try to make a circumstantial case." "It’s more likely that there is a syndrome with a common age of onset and it is going to be associated in time with whatever is happening at that age," added Cook. Both Halsey and Cook advise parents to continue having their children immunized with the MMR vaccine. "There is nothing about this study that should lead us not to immunize," said Cook. "I have no doubt that if we were not immunizing against MMR, there would be a lot more suffering." SOURCE: The Lancet (1998;351:611-612, 637-641)

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NEWS REPORT  Daily Telegraph BRITISH doctors have discovered a new bowel disease in children that they believe causes  autism and that could be triggered by the vaccination for measles, mumps and rubella.                   But they have not proved a link with the MMR vaccine and are divided on how best to advise parents. The doctors cannot show if what they have found is coincidence or the very first cases of a serious childhood illness with wide implications for the MMR vaccination  programme.                   Next month, the team from the Royal Free Hospital Hampstead, London, will meet Sir Kenneth Calman, the Chief Medical Officer, who has called for a meeting to discuss issues raised by the new findings.                   The meeting is being organised by the Medical Research Council and will be chaired by Sir John Pattison, a council adviser.                   The study – published today in The Lancet – says that 12 children who had previously developed normally were given tests and scans. All had disorders of their intestines, nine had diagnoses of autism and in eight, the parents’ or the child’s GP said the changes in health and  behaviour followed MMR vaccination in six days on average. In another series of patients, 46 of 48 children had the bowel and behaviour symptoms.                   The Royal Free has another 700 children waiting to be assessed. "We were very, very surprised. We expected we might see one or two in the second group," said Dr Andy Wakefield of the hospitals inflammatory bowel disease study group, who led the research.                   The new disease, which the team has called ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, produces lumpy swellings of lymph nodes in the intestine and patchy, recurring inflammation.                   Dr Wakefield is also expected to show the presence of measles virus in the intestine at two international meetings this summer. He believes that the three vaccines should be given  separately. But some of his colleagues say that there is not enough evidence and have called  for more research.                   "There is not a consensus among us as to what should happen next. I believe this syndrome has appeared since MMR . . . . There is sufficient concern in my own mind for a case to be made for vaccines to be given individually at not less than one year intervals."                   "For the vast majority of children, the MMR vaccine is fine but I believe there are sufficient anxieties for a case to be made to administer the three vaccinations separately." Dr Wakefield  said.                   However, Prof Arie Zuckerman, dean of the Royal Free Hospital Medical School, said: "It is absolutely essential to everyone that we do not dent the immunisation programme because it is children who will suffer."                   Autism has already been linked to other forms of bowel disease in children. Doctors believe opioids, chemicals released during digestion, are not properly absorbed by an inflamed bowel  and reach the brain, where they cause damage at a crucial stage of a child’s development.                   More than 1,350 parents have registered with solicitors with a view to claiming compensation for damage to their children following MMR vaccination.                   Pasteur M

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Self-Help Allergy Relief For Allergic Asthma, Eczema And Rhinitis (Hay Fever) Health Recovery Through Practical Self-Help Allergic illnesses have become a serious and increasing world health problem costing nations billions in precious financial resources and causing untold misery to millions of people. Yet, the scope for a truly natural health recovery is enormous and LIES IN THE HANDS OF INDIVIDUAL ALLERGY SUFFERERS – if only they realised it. The key to successful health recovery, as conveyed in this literature, is a positive self-help ATTITUDE and CULTURE coupled with CRUCIAL PRACTICAL ADVICE and VITAL INFORMATION. Armed with these essential tools the possibilities for genuine, practical self-help health recovery are unlimited for allergy sufferers who are prepared to really make the effort!

<deleted This sounds more like a religion that a medical program. (No I didn’t read the whole thing – a 23k usenet post is kind of excessive).

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Self-Help Allergy Relief For Allergic Asthma, Eczema And Rhinitis (Hay Fever) Health Recovery Through Practical Self-Help Allergic illnesses have become a serious and increasing world health problem costing nations billions in precious financial resources and causing untold misery to millions of people. Yet, the scope for a truly natural health recovery is enormous and LIES IN THE HANDS OF INDIVIDUAL ALLERGY SUFFERERS – if only they realised it. The key to successful health recovery, as conveyed in this literature, is a positive self-help ATTITUDE and CULTURE coupled with CRUCIAL PRACTICAL ADVICE and VITAL INFORMATION. Armed with these essential tools the possibilities for genuine, practical self-help health recovery are unlimited for allergy sufferers who are prepared to really make the effort!   My name is Nigel Cockain, founder of a little known business venture called Atopic Quest which is located in Derbyshire, England. Nine years ago, during the start of Atopic Quest, I made my own fantastic health recovery from all three so-called atopic illnesses – allergic asthma, eczema and rhinitis. This was after over 20 years as a chronic severe sufferer and a great deal of intense misery and despair. My health recovery transformed my life and was a dream come true. It enabled me to reduce ALL MY POTENT MEDICATION BY BETWEEN 50% AND 90% which was in itself a gigantic boost because of my constant worries about medical side-effects, particularly over the long-term. I had gained a quality of life which I had never known before – my new life had begun, at the age of 26. Over the last 9 years since my recovery I have continued to make further health improvements and refine my understanding and control of the factors that maintain my health recovery. This literature freely promotes the guiding philosophy and CULTURE which has played an essential part in sustaining my own health recovery for over 9 years. Yet, this is only half of the equation! In order to start making your health recovery you will need to obtain the CRUCIAL PRACTICAL   ADVICE and VITAL INFORMATION which is contained in the ATOPIC QUEST HEALTH RECOVERY PLAN. This is only available by subscribing to the newly formed Atopic Quest World Club (see later in this literature). This genuine opportunity will enable you to gain the knowledge and practical guidance which is fundamentally important for realistic, effective health recovery from atopic (allergic) illnesses. You CAN Recover With Atopicana! True self-help starts with BELIEF and the right ATTITUDE – not religious conviction but belief based on meaningful, practical, realistic and scientific or medical information. That is the basis of the self-help culture put forward in this literature which I have chosen to call ‘Atopicana’   and which has been derived from the medical term ‘atopic.’ The word, atopic (or atopy)  refers to a hard-core sector of allergic illnesses – allergic asthma, eczema and rhinitis (hay fever). Atopic people are people who have an inherited genetic tendency to become allergy sufferers, as defined by the high levels of the antibody, immunoglobulin E (IgE), that their bodies produce as an over-reaction, or allergy, to substances which would otherwise be harmless to normal healthy people. Atopicana, is a new and unique self-help CULTURE for sufferers  of atopic (allergic) illnesses. The essence of Atopicana is the assertion that YOU CAN recover from illness through positive, practical, progressive self-help and thereby reduce dependency on prescribed medication. It does NOT involve the use of any form of ‘alternative’ lotions, potions or weird treatments and is entirely COMPLEMENTARY TO MODERN MEDICINE. Why Atopicana Culture? Atopicana offers atopic (allergy) sufferers a new way of life, a practical healthcare CULTURAL BELIEF SYSTEM which they can share and help to shape over years to come. It is a pragmatic forward-thinking medium through which they can fight back against their illness with energy and vitality. Atopicana is for positive, self-helpers who refuse to apathetically accept the restrictions of their illness. It is for those who want to break through new frontiers, ever onwards, making the best of shared practical advice and crucial information affecting allergic disorders. Atopicana seeks to inspire within the sufferer a genuine positive, creative enlightenment and cultural identity. Atopicana seeks to fill a gap in the lives of many sufferers. Buying self-help products and reading healthcare books that are now increasingly available can be highly beneficial but are only part of the solution. Being part of a cohesive and positively tailored culture on the other hand may fill the gap and generate enhanced BELIEF, SHARED PURPOSE and EMPOWERMENT. Atopicana is for life! It is a living, expanding culture that people can feel part of and gain strength from. Atopicana has SOUL and a COMMON PURPOSE for atopic people. It seeks to challenge the status quo for people with allergic illness and provide identity for those sufferers who may often feel handicapped by their illness but radiant in their desire for health recovery and an ever improving quality of life. Core Values Of Atopicana Atopicana comprises a set of twenty fundamental features that collectively form the fabric of Atopicana culture and philosophy. These may be refined and amended over time but the current structure comprises the following: 1. Atopicana – A Culture For Atopic People First and foremost Atopicana is a CULTURE for atopic people. Recognition of this is important because it is this shared set of values that gives it shape, a common purpose and identity. It is a living force, way of life, day to day healthcare approach to be shared amongst a breed of like-minded atopic people across all races and   nationalities around the world. 2. Practical, Proactive And Progressive! Atopicana is a practical day to day living experience which is under the control of the individual sufferer or his/her guardian. This means that it is a personal layperson’s activity which relies upon a proactive and practical approach to daily healthcare in order for it to sustain progressive, successful momentum. 3. Embodies A Defiance Of Apathy! Atopicana is a determined defiance of illness and apathy! Every twinge of FIGHT is encouraged because, without this, change would never occur. Nothing happens unless YOU make it happen! You CAN find relief and you CAN recover from allergic illness! 4. Exudes Positive-Power! Where there’s a will there’s a way! This is hugely pertinent to Atopicana. Positive-power is the essential driving force that carries the sufferer forward against all obstacles. Positive-power comes naturally to an Atopican* because he/she fosters an optimistic healthcare vision through Atopicana based on realistic hope from new methods, new advice, new information and new technologies to bring about relief from allergic illness. *An Atopican is someone who believes in Atopicana and is a member of the Atopic Quest World Club – see below. 5. Involves Lifestyle Management Atopicana is all about lifestyle management; actively improving the physical environment and day to day management techniques of the sufferer. It means constantly refining and perfecting the quality of health through intelligent manipulation of exposure levels and environmental factors. 6. Both An Art And A Science Atopicana is very much an art because it relies upon the subjective assessment and judgement of daily living factors by the sufferer. It is also a science because it involves  the serious and objective application of scientific and technological tools and techniques. 7. A Living And Learning Experience Atopicana is a continuous living and learning experience. All Atopicans are lifetime students because there is always more to learn and more to improve on. Atopicana is about ‘learning to live WITHOUT’ the symptoms of atopic illness.   8. Focuses On ‘Physical Factor Philosophy’ (PFP) Fundamental to Atopicana is the Physical Factor Philosophy  (PFP). This approach or philosophy is the driving force for practical health recovery and simply means that focus is placed on the manipulation of material physical factors in the environment of the sufferer (such as dust control, humidity control etc) in order to bring about recovery. This is defined as such because Atopicana does not promote or support the use of chemical methods, products or treatments – except, of course, medications prescribed by a doctor or approved skin care products for those with allergic eczema. 9. Involves A Non-Chemical Approach Atopicana involves a non-chemical approach to self-help healthcare (except for the use of medically approved prescribed medication). Focus is on manipulation of physical environmental factors (see ‘PFP’ above) and not on products or techniques which overtly use chemicals. Allergy sufferers have enough problems with chemicals, allergens and irritants in their environment without the need to introduce yet more potential allergens or irritants. Atopicana does not involve itself with ‘alternative’ lotions, potions or remedies – such things are outside our arena of concern and focus. 10. Healthcare Through Allergen And Irritant Avoidance Atopicana is … read more »

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Self-Help Allergy Relief For Allergic Asthma, Eczema & Rhinitis. Crucial Practical Advice and Vital Information REALLY CAN bring you major health recovery from allergic illnesses! To find out more about this plus free details of a newly formed self-help world club, contact Nigel Cockain by e.mail to: [Just send me an e.mail saying "club info" and I will send you my free self-help advisory pack by return mail to your e.mail address]

Hmmm . . . why do I suspect that this ‘club’ involves buying whatever he is selling?

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Self-Help Allergy Relief For Allergic Asthma, Eczema & Rhinitis. Crucial Practical Advice and Vital Information REALLY CAN bring you major health recovery from allergic illnesses! To find out more about this plus free details of a newly formed self-help world club, contact Nigel Cockain by e.mail to: [Just send me an e.mail saying "club info" and I will send you my free self-help advisory pack by return mail to your e.mail address]

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