Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -modern medicine is still evolving and we need to be humble — two years ago i researched and wrote a book on diet to prevent heart disease- the co-author and editor delayed things and came back to me recently – I’ve nearly rewritten my half of the book including the recommendations thanks to new findings. Medicine is moving so fast that it is difficult for anyone to keep up and make sense of research findings that are often contrdictory. There is very little research on diet and asthma and the results are contradictory. The epidemiological data shows that areas where people he a higher intake of salt increased levels of asthma. However restricting salt rarely has any effect on asthmatics. People can be sensitive to food– British research on children with behavior problems for example shows that food additives, coloring and even some food stuffs can trigger severe violence.
Are you sure about this. I thought the research found no link between food additives and behavioral problems in children. Do you have a reference for any reports? Remove the spam from address if replying by email
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demonstrate the proper level of training and competence. I hope you are not suggesting that we let self proclaimed gurus with no credentials join.
CBI – I am not inferring that you *must* work with every person who proclaims themselves a healer. I am suggesting, though, that MD’s start accepting the fact that there are many legitimate alternative practitioners out here who are very successful at what they do. The positive impact on patients could be tremendous if, instead of MD’s fighting against alternative, they could work in conjunction with each other. Out of the alternative practitioners that I have had experience with, not one of them could get any consideration from the conventional medical community. I’m not talking about faith healers and water diviners, mind you. I am referring to DC’s, DO’s and the like. These people want to work in tandem with the medical community – it’s the MD’s, for the most part, who have been unwilling to do so. My hope is that some day the good of the patient will rise above this lack of communication between the two.
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DC’s and DO’s are pretty well accepted. DO’s get the same licensee that MD’s have. They also can take the same boards and practice in the same hospitals. As for the others I don’t think the MD’s are to blame. If they want to practice "outside conventional medicine" fine, do so. Just don’t go whining about not being let in. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. We have a set of rules we have agreed to play by. Many of these rules were dictated by society and not the doctors. These other practitioners come along and don’t want to play by the rules, preferring instead to claim outsider status and infer that this leaves them somehow less subject to corruption. They then claim they are being "kept out". The whole thing is insane. It is like me claiming that major league baseball is keeping me out. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to demonstrate the proper level of training and competence. I hope you are not suggesting that we let self proclaimed gurus with no credentials join. CBI – I am not inferring that you *must* work with every person who proclaims themselves a healer. I am suggesting, though, that MD’s start accepting the fact that there are many legitimate alternative practitioners out here who are very successful at what they do. The positive impact on patients could be tremendous if, instead of MD’s fighting against alternative, they could work in conjunction with each other. Out of the alternative practitioners that I have had experience with, not one of them could get any consideration from the conventional medical community. I’m not talking about faith healers and water diviners, mind you. I am referring to DC’s, DO’s and the like. These people want to work in tandem with the medical community – it’s the MD’s, for the most part, who have been unwilling to do so. My hope is that some day the good of the patient will rise above this lack of communication between the two.
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People can be sensitive to food– British research on children with behavior problems for example shows that food additives, coloring and even some food stuffs can trigger severe violence. This is a common misconception. There were a few early, small, poorly conducted studies that seemed to show this. When attempts were made to replicate the results with larger, blinded studies the results did not hold up. There is no good data suggesting that food additives or refined sugars affect violence in adults, hyperactivity in children, or asthma. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -modern medicine is still evolving and we need to be humble — two years ago i researched and wrote a book on diet to prevent heart disease- the co-author and editor delayed things and came back to me recently – I’ve nearly rewritten my half of the book including the recommendations thanks to new findings. Medicine is moving so fast that it is difficult for anyone to keep up and make sense of research findings that are often contrdictory. There is very little research on diet and asthma and the results are contradictory. The epidemiological data shows that areas where people he a higher intake of salt increased levels of asthma. However restricting salt rarely has any effect on asthmatics. People can be sensitive to food– British research on children with behavior problems for example shows that food additives, coloring and even some food stuffs can trigger severe violence. I ask my patients to experiment– go on diet with few foods and then gradually add one new item every alternate day. If there is no reaction — asthma or allergy then it’s ok– move on to the next item. There seem to be two factors operating food allergy – where the person develops a reaction and food sensitivity– where a food may trigger an attack. Often if one avoids the offending item for 6- months the immune system normalizes and the person is no longer sensitive. Occasionally after a gap a the person may have a much more severe reaction (possibly levels of blocking antibodies fall)– my experience has been that allergy testing may occasionally help but RAST and other immunological tests are a waste. The thing to do is to learn how to listen to your body — if something doesn’t suit you avoid it- animals do it all the time– dayal — Dayal Mirchandani MD. Asthma/Heart http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/6604 Anti Spam: Remove the X from the e-mail address. Auto Reply button will not work The ‘food pyramid’ is just a very basic guideline to nutrition. It’s quite suitable for people who have no underlying negative health condition. However,
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Anyone can join the club. They just have to demonstrate the proper level of training and competence. I hope you are not suggesting that we let self proclaimed gurus with no credentials join. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Harold Spatz writes: Medicine and Science have come a long way in the last few hundred years and we are seeing the results of it. But they have barely scratched the surface in understanding the human body and how it works and reacts. Harold – it’s good to hear from people like you who believe that there is more to treating an illness than to suppress the body’s natural responses to disease and pain. I liken the AMA to the builders of the Titanic – the AMA, also, thinks that they are capable of overriding nature’s forces with their synthetic drugs. I don’t boycott conventional medicine; it has made some very important advances for the benefit of mankind. Nonetheless, they have been conditioned to treat illness one symptom at a time, whereas alternative practitioners concentrate on prevention. Ideally, both alternative and allopathic practitioners should work together. Unfortunately the majority of conventional MD’s refuse to give alt. practitioners a membership into the ‘good ol’ boy’s club’, and because we humans are conditioned to stay with the familiar, we tend to follow what is more common.
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There was a study done where they looked at children who’s parents all felt that sugar and food additives affected their behavior. They fed different diets to the kids and then had both trained observers and their parents observe and rate them. None of the observers knew what diet the kids had consumed. This was repeated on different days with different diets given to the same kids. Neither the trained observers nor the parents could predict which days their children had consumed refine sugar or food additives. — Good Luck, CBI, M.D.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -caowens writes: Chemical food additives, yes, if they happen to be included in your triggers; but on what basis do you condemn refined sugar? Chris -I ‘condemn’ refined sugar on the basis that chemicals are used in the refining process. Also, I have seen the positive effects that cutting it out of my son’s diet has had on his health. Not necessarily. It might be a sign of an hyperactive immune system, or an out-of-balance immune system. Whether the immune system is suppressed or hyperactive, it is, either way, out of balance. I realize that an asthma attack itself is most often the result of hyper-activity on the part of the immune system, however; the main trigger for my son’s attacks, which are upper-respiratory infections, are a result of a suppressed immune system. <<Not at all. I know why: 1. Variable risk of exposure. 2. Variable immune response. People existing in close proximity of each other carry an equal risk of exposure, although not all people who exist in close proximity succumb to illness. To address point #2; why does each individual’s immune response vary? Because some people have strong, healthy immune systems and other people’s immune systems are compromised for one reason or another. Carol
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And have learned to place less than godlike faith in traditional medicine ? Medicine and Science have come a long way in the last few hundred years and we are seeing the results of it. But they have barely scratched the surface in understanding the human body and how it works and reacts.
But compare this knowlege with the knowlege of the alternative medicine people. At least there is a factual basis for conventional medicine.
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modern medicine is still evolving and we need to be humble — two years ago i researched and wrote a book on diet to prevent heart disease- the co-author and editor delayed things and came back to me recently – I’ve nearly rewritten my half of the book including the recommendations thanks to new findings. Medicine is moving so fast that it is difficult for anyone to keep up and make sense of research findings that are often contrdictory. There is very little research on diet and asthma and the results are contradictory. The epidemiological data shows that areas where people he a higher intake of salt increased levels of asthma. However restricting salt rarely has any effect on asthmatics. People can be sensitive to food– British research on children with behavior problems for example shows that food additives, coloring and even some food stuffs can trigger severe violence. I ask my patients to experiment– go on diet with few foods and then gradually add one new item every alternate day. If there is no reaction — asthma or allergy then it’s ok– move on to the next item. There seem to be two factors operating food allergy – where the person develops a reaction and food sensitivity– where a food may trigger an attack. Often if one avoids the offending item for 6- months the immune system normalizes and the person is no longer sensitive. Occasionally after a gap a the person may have a much more severe reaction (possibly levels of blocking antibodies fall)– my experience has been that allergy testing may occasionally help but RAST and other immunological tests are a waste. The thing to do is to learn how to listen to your body — if something doesn’t suit you avoid it- animals do it all the time– dayal — Dayal Mirchandani MD. Asthma/Heart http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/6604 Anti Spam: Remove the X from the e-mail address. Auto Reply button will not work – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The ‘food pyramid’ is just a very basic guideline to nutrition. It’s quite suitable for people who have no underlying negative health condition. However,
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Colin – That you are cautious in your acceptance of any kind of treatment, be it conventional or alternative, is very wise. Nobody should approach any treatment with their eyes closed. The point that I have been attempting to make has only been that nothing should be overlooked as a possible treatment for any illness. What works for my son undoubtedly will not work with everyone – all people respond to treatment differently. However, there are people out there who can benefit from a multitude of both allopathic and alternative treatments that are available, but only if they are aware of them. The way many people first become aware of the various treatments is by reading about personal experiences with them in newsgroups such as these. Then we, as individuals, need to use common sense in not blindly following a stranger’s advise without first educating ourselves.
The problem is that you seem to have made a blanket assumption that your particular treatment ‘works’ based on nothing more that your unscientific observation of one person. Another problem with ‘alternative’ medicine is that you cannot evaluate the risks and benefits as (unlike conventional medicine) there is no requirement for the proponents to validate thier claims. In fact many people marketing ‘alternative’ treatments deliberately hide information about the dangers of a particullar treatment. What we need are 1) licensing standards for ‘alternative’ practiconers, 2) professional liability – and the requirement that they have malpractice insurance 3) require safety testing for _all_ alterbative treatments 4) criminal penalties for any deception regarding the safety and/or effectivness of the treatment and 5) greater resources for the FDA and the FTC to investigate fraud in the alternative medicine industry.
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Harold Spatz writes: Medicine and Science have come a long way in the last few hundred years and we are seeing the results of it. But they have barely scratched the surface in understanding the human body and how it works and reacts.
Harold – it’s good to hear from people like you who believe that there is more to treating an illness than to suppress the body’s natural responses to disease and pain. I liken the AMA to the builders of the Titanic – the AMA, also, thinks that they are capable of overriding nature’s forces with their synthetic drugs. I don’t boycott conventional medicine; it has made some very important advances for the benefit of mankind. Nonetheless, they have been conditioned to treat illness one symptom at a time, whereas alternative practitioners concentrate on prevention. Ideally, both alternative and allopathic practitioners should work together. Unfortunately the majority of conventional MD’s refuse to give alt. practitioners a membership into the ‘good ol’ boy’s club’, and because we humans are conditioned to stay with the familiar, we tend to follow what is more common.
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I do not claim to know every detail of every system of the human body, nor have I ever inferred that I do.
With that admission you open your mind to real learning ! More medical providers need to take such an open stance. A book I’d recommend is Dr.Doris Rapp’s "Is This Your Child?" I picked it up a few days ago and love it ! It is extremely enlightening on the topic of allergies. I have, however, done quite a bit of research into not only conventional treatment of asthma, but many of the alternative treatments, and in the process have learned quite a bit about the various inner workings of the human body, including the immune system.
And have learned to place less than godlike faith in traditional medicine ? Medicine and Science have come a long way in the last few hundred years and we are seeing the results of it. But they have barely scratched the surface in understanding the human body and how it works and reacts. Harold Spatz Independent Alpine Air Dealer corporate Web Site http://www.alpineindustries.com
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Colin writes: The problem here is that we do not know exactly what was responsible for the change. You attribute it to one specific cause. I am a little more cautious and want to see if this is repeatable in other people or if it merely the result of coincidence. <
Colin – That you are cautious in your acceptance of any kind of treatment, be it conventional or alternative, is very wise. Nobody should approach any treatment with their eyes closed. The point that I have been attempting to make has only been that nothing should be overlooked as a possible treatment for any illness. What works for my son undoubtedly will not work with everyone – all people respond to treatment differently. However, there are people out there who can benefit from a multitude of both allopathic and alternative treatments that are available, but only if they are aware of them. The way many people first become aware of the various treatments is by reading about personal experiences with them in newsgroups such as these. Then we, as individuals, need to use common sense in not blindly following a stranger’s advise without first educating ourselves.
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Colin – as I said in my last post, you are completely unconvincing in your rhetoric. You have no basis for the supposed ‘facts’ you keep repeating; I, however, have seen first-hand how someone reacts to the treatment that I refer to.
The problem here is that we do not know exactly what was responsible for the change. You attribute it to one specific cause. I am a little more cautious and want to see if this is repeatable in other people or if it merely the result of coincidence.
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caowens writes: Chemical food additives, yes, if they happen to be included
in your triggers; but on what basis do you condemn refined sugar?
Chris -I ‘condemn’ refined sugar on the basis that chemicals are used in the refining process. Also, I have seen the positive effects that cutting it out of my son’s diet has had on his health. Not necessarily. It might be a sign of an hyperactive immune system, or an out-of-balance immune system.
Whether the immune system is suppressed or hyperactive, it is, either way, out of balance. I realize that an asthma attack itself is most often the result of hyper-activity on the part of the immune system, however; the main trigger for my son’s attacks, which are upper-respiratory infections, are a result of a suppressed immune system. <<Not at all. I know why: 1. Variable risk of exposure. 2. Variable immune response.
People existing in close proximity of each other carry an equal risk of exposure, although not all people who exist in close proximity succumb to illness. To address point #2; why does each individual’s immune response vary? Because some people have strong, healthy immune systems and other people’s immune systems are compromised for one reason or another. Carol
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Colin – as I said in my last post, you are completely unconvincing in your rhetoric. You have no basis for the supposed ‘facts’ you keep repeating; I, however, have seen first-hand how someone reacts to the treatment that I refer to. To use a statement of yours as an example of you talking out both sides of your mouth, so to speak, is (and I quote): ….I demand that a proposed treatment meet specific objective critera, while you simply want something that sounds good.<
What exactly are you trying to say here? By talking in circles, You may feel that you come off as educated on this subject, but it’s obvious by the way you stick to your vague claims of knowledge that it is a feeble attempt at a smokescreen. I at first I looked forward to a very interesting debate with you, but it seems to have stalled. I do not claim to know every detail of every system of the human body, nor have I ever inferred that I do. I have, however, done quite a bit of research into not only conventional treatment of asthma, but many of the alternative treatments, and in the process have learned quite a bit about the various inner workings of the human body, including the immune system.
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Colin – I will dispense with the quotes for the benefit of saving time. Besides, your answers to my statements are not very convincing. Your statements show that you have no willingness to practice what you preach as far as learning as much as possible about asthma and the wide range of treatments out there for it.
I fail to see your point. I am willing to spend the time to research out the research conducted into what asthma is, and I am willing to research source materials regarding asthma treatments. Where we seem to disagree is that I demand that a proposed treatment meet specific objective critera, while you simply want something that sounds good. It’s too bad that you are willing to settle for what someone else tells you do instead of looking around to see what really will work for you. People like you who limit themselves to one way of thinking without looking at all possibilities are short-changing themselves.
I do look around. I also do an analysis to determine the potential benefits, the potential harm, and the likleyhood of each. I ask questions and do actual research. One thing I do not do is use myself as a guiena pig. I will say that what works for my son’s asthma will not work with everyone, just as what med works with some people will not work with all. However, I have personally seen the results of this treatment work on other people – I didn’t need to wait for scientific results to come out in print.
The problem here is that what you ’see’ may not really be there. This is why the scientific method was developed. It is human nature for people to decieve themselves in order "see" the effects they are looking for – if you do not use caution then you can mistakenly assume that two unconnected events share a cause-effect relationship. As far as asthma being the result of an hyper-active immune system – my son’s asthma is triggered primarily by viruses like colds and such. Because his immune system was suppressed, he was unable to fight off these simple colds, consequently setting off the chain of events that led to his frequent asthma attacks.
You keep saying that his immune system was suppressed. How do you know this? Or are you simply making another assumption? (BTW, if your immune system is suppressed the doctor will know it). You really should learn something about how the immune system operates.
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The ‘food pyramid’ is just a very basic guideline to nutrition. It’s quite suitable for people who have no underlying negative health condition. However, it cannot be relied on for diabetics, nor for people with asthma or other adverse health problems. Refined sugars and chemical food additives are a real problem for people affected by asthma
Chemical food additives, yes, if they happen to be included in your triggers; but on what basis do you condemn refined sugar? If you have a healthy immune system, your body can usually cope with the occasional mild illness. When chronic illness is present, that is, in fact, a sign of a suppressed immune system.
Not necessarily. It might be a sign of an hyperactive immune system, or an out-of-balance immune system. When the immune system isn’t up to par, it can’t cope with, for example, a cold virus, whereas a person with a healthy immune system has no problems with the virus. Ever wonder why some people seem to be sick all of the time during the cold & flu season, and others seem to not be affected at all?
Not at all. I know why: 1. Variable risk of exposure. 2. Variable immune response. Chris Owens
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Colin – I will dispense with the quotes for the benefit of saving time. Besides, your answers to my statements are not very convincing. Your statements show that you have no willingness to practice what you preach as far as learning as much as possible about asthma and the wide range of treatments out there for it. It’s too bad that you are willing to settle for what someone else tells you do instead of looking around to see what really will work for you. People like you who limit themselves to one way of thinking without looking at all possibilities are short-changing themselves. I will say that what works for my son’s asthma will not work with everyone, just as what med works with some people will not work with all. However, I have personally seen the results of this treatment work on other people – I didn’t need to wait for scientific results to come out in print. As far as asthma being the result of an hyper-active immune system – my son’s asthma is triggered primarily by viruses like colds and such. Because his immune system was suppressed, he was unable to fight off these simple colds, consequently setting off the chain of events that led to his frequent asthma attacks. Because we choose to look at the underlying conditions that affect his asthma, we are able to control it much better. Take your nose out of that scientific journal and check out the options out there – you may be pleasantly surprised at what there is to discover.
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The ‘food pyramid’ is just a very basic guideline to nutrition. It’s quite suitable for people who have no underlying negative health condition. However, it cannot be relied on for diabetics, nor for people with asthma or other adverse health problems. Refined sugars and chemical food additives are a real problem for people affected by asthma and other health problems. Unfortunately, this kind of education is not given to most patients of allopaths.
Can you provide a reference that asthmatics have special dietary requirements? All the scientific research I have read indicates that (with the exception of food allergies) a sensible diet is all that an asthmatic needs. I would like to see some citation references about the refined sugars and food additives – every time I have tried to track these down it resulted in the ’source’ being made up in somebody’s promotional literature. I, too, have occasionally been precribed generic brands after being sent home with a night’s supply of a name brand med. Not all doctors get sucked into the drug company rhetoric, just as not all consumers get taken in by scammers. Most of us know that generic meds are no different than name-brands. They are required to have the same ingredients – you just end up paying more for name-brands because they have to cover the cost of not only advertising, but all of those nice fancy dinners they sponsor for hospital personnel so they can sell them on their products. (I have attended more than one of these – they are not an assumption on my part).
Be real carefull though. Not all generics are exactly like name-brand medications. I have no trouble with ‘generic’ albuterol but some people require a specific brand. Theophylline is another example where you need to be ‘brand-loyal’ as different brands can produce different levels of drug in the bloodstream. My regular doctor always prescribes generic albuterol, my specalist will only prescribe Proventil HFA (which he feels is safer). If you have a healthy immune system, your body can usually cope with the occasional mild illness. When chronic illness is present, that is, in fact, a sign of a suppressed immune system.
Isn’t asthma an example of an ‘overenthuastic’ rather than ’suppressed’ immune system? I have heard this claim a lot – typically made by people selling (bogus) products to ‘boost’ the immune system. We know too much about asthma nowadays to confuse it with a comprimised or suppressed immune system. When the immune system isn’t up to par, it can’t cope with, for example, a cold virus, whereas a person with a healthy immune system has no problems with the virus. Ever wonder why some people seem to be sick all of the time during the cold & flu season, and others seem to not be affected at all? We are all exposed to all these viruses at one time or another – only people who’s immune system is functioning properly will not get ill.
Last October some Canadian researchers released a study where this observation was tested. They found that over a course of several years all generally healthy people will get ill at roughly equal rates. Another intresting result from that study was that the vegetable oil placebo was found to be better at preventing colds/flu than the homeopathic remedy they were testing it against. I beg to differ on the point of needing a good grounding in science and statistics to know what is working for me. Nobody needs to be a rocket scientist to observe how their own health is. As for statistics, nobody will have a textbook case. Textbook cases take statistics and combine them to give people a general idea of what to expect – they apply to no one person.
The problem is that without an objective yardstick, you have no idea whether it is really working for you or not. The scientific method and statistical analysis were designed to overcome human nature and our tenedncy towards fooling ourselves. I think that the real problem is, Colin, that you are afraid to trust in your own capability of reasoning and deduction.
Actually, I am very confident in my capabilities in terms of reasoning and deduction. So sure in fact that I always use objective standards to test my assumptions. I am also aware that the fact that I believe something dosen’t necessarily mean it is true. I also recognise that just because something appears to be causing another thing to occur – dosent mean that that is what is really happening. Doctors should not have a monopoly on all knowledge pertaining to our health. Yes, doctors are quite valuable in their diagnostic abilities, and they alone can dispense prescriptions, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us should sit back and leave all of the decisions to them. The knowledge is out there for the public – it is not classified information.
You are correct. That is why I encourage everybody to learn about asthma and read the research behind the science of asthma. The more you know about asthma the easier it is to spot the quacks. What we need to do is take more initiative and make use of those resources that can benefit us as individuals. As far as testing any beliefs, I have been testing my belief in the treatment of my son’s asthma since last June. So far, results have been very positive compared to any previous treatment he had received. Exactly what more do I need to qualify for someone who has ‘tested a belief’?
Well, for one thing you need to test your belief. All you have done is assume a cause/effect relationship based on one (unscientific) trial.
Response:
Colin writes: My primary doctor has the habit of forcing phamphlets
describing the ‘food pyramid’ with the recommended dietary intake of various foods. He also keeps giving me pamphlets on the dangers of smoking and drinking. When I tell him that I don’t smoke and rarely drink, he tells me to give them to someone who does.<<< The ‘food pyramid’ is just a very basic guideline to nutrition. It’s quite suitable for people who have no underlying negative health condition. However, it cannot be relied on for diabetics, nor for people with asthma or other adverse health problems. Refined sugars and chemical food additives are a real problem for people affected by asthma and other health problems. Unfortunately, this kind of education is not given to most patients of allopaths. Actually, doctors get a lot of promotional material from the drug companies. In fact the drug companies have no way of knowing which doctors are even prescribibg thier products. It amuses me when my doctor gives me the free starter pack for a particular medication, but prescribes a different brand (generally on the basis of the other brand is cheaper and just as good).
Yes; doctors DO get a lot of promotional material from the drug companies, which is what makes for good business for those same drug companies. They don’t need to know which doctor is precribing their products – as long as they are being prescribed, that’s all that matters to them. It’s the same as with any business – make the label known to the public and to the doctors; what is most familiar is what tends to get requested more. I, too, have occasionally been precribed generic brands after being sent home with a night’s supply of a name brand med. Not all doctors get sucked into the drug company rhetoric, just as not all consumers get taken in by scammers. Most of us know that generic meds are no different than name-brands. They are required to have the same ingredients – you just end up paying more for name-brands because they have to cover the cost of not only advertising, but all of those nice fancy dinners they sponsor for hospital personnel so they can sell them on their products. (I have attended more than one of these – they are not an assumption on my part). There are specific times when a doctor should prescribe nutritional supplementation. However, for the otherwise healthy person a reasonably balanced diet is all that is needed.<<<
I very much agree with you here, Colin. Not everybody needs nutritional supplements. I do not take any extra supplements, but my son, who has asthma, does. There is such thing as overkill when taking too many supplements. << BTW, if your diet is so poor that it is affecting your immune system then you are going to have other medical problems show up first.
If you have a healthy immune system, your body can usually cope with the occasional mild illness. When chronic illness is present, that is, in fact, a sign of a suppressed immune system. When the immune system isn’t up to par, it can’t cope with, for example, a cold virus, whereas a person with a healthy immune system has no problems with the virus. Ever wonder why some people seem to be sick all of the time during the cold & flu season, and others seem to not be affected at all? We are all exposed to all these viruses at one time or another – only people who’s immune system is functioning properly will not get ill. <<Any you are right, it does not take a degree in statistics to know if a treatment _appears_ to work or not. But in order to know for sure you need a good grounding in science and statisitcs.
I beg to differ on the point of needing a good grounding in science and statistics to know what is working for me. Nobody needs to be a rocket scientist to observe how their own health is. As for statistics, nobody will have a textbook case. Textbook cases take statistics and combine them to give people a general idea of what to expect – they apply to no one person. <<The problem is that _you_ really do not know. You may think you do, but since you have never tested than belief you can not know for sure.<<
I think that the real problem is, Colin, that you are afraid to trust in your own capability of reasoning and deduction. Doctors should not have a monopoly on all knowledge pertaining to our health. Yes, doctors are quite valuable in their diagnostic abilities, and they alone can dispense prescriptions, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us should sit back and leave all of the decisions to them. The knowledge is out there for the public – it is not classified information. What we need to do is take more initiative and make use of those resources that can benefit us as individuals. As far as testing any beliefs, I have been testing my belief in the treatment of my son’s asthma since last June. So far, results have been very positive compared to any previous treatment he had received. Exactly what more do I need to qualify for someone who has ‘tested a belief’?
Response:
Colin – Doctors consistently neglect to educate their patients on the value of good nutrition as a means to achieve optimum health. I do not consider being told to "exercise and eat a balanced diet" sound nutritional counseling. How many people actually know what a "balanced diet" is?
My primary doctor has the habit of forcing phamphlets describing the ‘food pyramid’ with the recommended dietary intake of various foods. He also keeps giving me pamphlets on the dangers of smoking and drinking. When I tell him that I don’t smoke and rarely drink, he tells me to give them to someone who does. I don’t deal with vitamin salesmen; just like doctors who receive perks from drug companies for using their products, vitamin salesmen are out to make the almighty buck, also. Instead, I rely on my own experiences with different products, as well as product literature, to make a truly informed decision.
Actually, doctors get a lot of promotional material from the drug companies. In fact the drug companies have no way of knowing which doctors are even prescribibg thier products. It amuses me when my doctor gives me the free starter pack for a particular medication, but prescribes a different brand (generally on the basis of the other brand is cheaper and just as good). I have a hard time believing that you believe that there is no connection between nutrition and adverse health conditions. What about all the conventional doctors who recommend taking vitamin supplements? What about people who have diet restrictions on account of having heart disease? Every system in the body is affected by nutritional deficit. Most important of all is the immune system. Without proper nutrition, the immune system becomes suppressed, thereby directly affecting how the other systems of the body (cardiovascular, respiratory, digestive, etc.) function. I do not base my opinions on what I’m told by the so-called "industry liars" – I instead rely on my own observations. It does not take a degree in physics to determine what kind of treatment is working and what kind is not.
There are specific times when a doctor should prescribe nutritional supplementation. However, for the otherwise healthy person a reasonably balanced diet is all that is needed. BTW, if your diet is so poor that it is affecting your immune system then you are going to have other medical problems show up first. Any you are right, it does not take a degree in statistics to know if a treatment _appears_ to work or not. But in order to know for sure you need a good grounding in science and statisitcs. Colin – my opinion is that all the scientific proof in the world means nothing to me if it does not give me results. That’s wonderful that standard treatment works for some people; if it doesn’t give me the results that I want, I do not consider it valid to me personally. About insuring that what results I witness with my own eyes is actually there, who knows better than myself if I am feeling good as a result of a treatment?
The problem is that _you_ really do not know. You may think you do, but since you have never tested than belief you can not know for sure.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Didn’t you make the comment about the dangers of human bias in research? What measures do you take to ensure that what you witness with your own eyes, is actually there? Colin – my opinion is that all the scientific proof in the world means nothing to me if it does not give me results. That’s wonderful that standard treatment works for some people; if it doesn’t give me the results that I want, I do not consider it valid to me personally. About insuring that what results I witness with my own eyes is actually there, who knows better than myself if I am feeling good as a result of a treatment? How do you know what that alternative treatment is actually doing? Are you relying on the word of the person selling it to you? (And, is this a good idea?) < How do I know what alternative treatment is doing? Like I said earlier, I know by how I am feeling. I have much less fear of using nutritional supplements than I do using pharmaceuticals. And no, I do not rely on anyone else’s word that they work. I rely on personal experience.
THere really shouldn’t be this dichotomy between traditional and alternative therapies. Sadie’s comments are logical and valid and inarguable — if it works for me, it WORKS! THe problem is when less rational people, discouraged by the ‘apparent’ lack of effect of traditional medicine discard it and turn to alternatives. They can be led down a garden path from one ineffective alternative to another by a practioner who is not trained or regulated and whose major concern is profit not patient health (I know – that sounds a lot like a HMO – except for the regulated). WHen parents do this for/TO their chidren it borders on criminal. In general – there’s nothing wrong with alternative approaches as adjuncts to traditional medicine. If they make you feel better, great, but be careful if you wean yourself from traditional meds – many can cause severe problems if discontinued abruptly.
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Colin writes: Actually, doctors do educate thier patients on the subject. The thing to remember is that the doctors stick to the actual facts (which is something the vitamin salesmen don’t do).
Colin – Doctors consistently neglect to educate their patients on the value of good nutrition as a means to achieve optimum health. I do not consider being told to "exercise and eat a balanced diet" sound nutritional counseling. How many people actually know what a "balanced diet" is? I don’t deal with vitamin salesmen; just like doctors who receive perks from drug companies for using their products, vitamin salesmen are out to make the almighty buck, also. Instead, I rely on my own experiences with different products, as well as product literature, to make a truly informed decision. Have you taken a close look at the ’science’ supporting these nutrition claims? Nutritional therapy is only usefull for problems that are actually related to nutrition. Since asthma is not a nutritional problem, and since nutritional supplements have been shown to have no real effect on asthma (with one minor exception). Why should anybody waste thier money and support an industry that lies to its customers?
I have a hard time believing that you believe that there is no connection between nutrition and adverse health conditions. What about all the conventional doctors who recommend taking vitamin supplements? What about people who have diet restrictions on account of having heart disease? Every system in the body is affected by nutritional deficit. Most important of all is the immune system. Without proper nutrition, the immune system becomes suppressed, thereby directly affecting how the other systems of the body (cardiovascular, respiratory, digestive, etc.) function. I do not base my opinions on what I’m told by the so-called "industry liars" – I instead rely on my own observations. It does not take a degree in physics to determine what kind of treatment is working and what kind is not. Didn’t you make the comment about the dangers of human bias in research? What measures do you take to ensure that what you witness with your own eyes, is actually there?
Colin – my opinion is that all the scientific proof in the world means nothing to me if it does not give me results. That’s wonderful that standard treatment works for some people; if it doesn’t give me the results that I want, I do not consider it valid to me personally. About insuring that what results I witness with my own eyes is actually there, who knows better than myself if I am feeling good as a result of a treatment? How do you know what that alternative treatment is actually doing? Are you relying on the word of the person selling it to you? (And, is this a good idea?) <
How do I know what alternative treatment is doing? Like I said earlier, I know by how I am feeling. I have much less fear of using nutritional supplements than I do using pharmaceuticals. And no, I do not rely on anyone else’s word that they work. I rely on personal experience
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training (down to the biochemical level) in nutrition. And this information is available to us. I suggest that you do some research into the ’science’ that supports most of these claims – then decide just how reliable an ‘alternative’ practiconer is.
Colin, I realize that the information about the correllation between nutrition and health is out there; unfortunately, medical doctors will not educate their patients (and themselves) on this subject. I have had experience with both conventional doctors and alternative practitioners. I have dealt with a fairly broad sampling of both, and what I have seen is that the MD’s rely more on medications to treat symptoms, whereas alternative practitioners look deeper into what is actually causing the symptoms. Then, using nutritional therapy among other natural treatments, they try to help the body itself cope with the condition. As far as scientific research goes, what I witness with my own eyes is far more reliable research than something that has been tested on a bunch of rats, as far as I am concerned. I believe there is a need for both conventional and alternative medicine. I just don’t believe that being prescribed a medication to just cover up symptoms is very prudent when there is an alternative treatment out there that can help the body’s natural defenses deal with the problem. I guess we’re just probably at opposite ends of the spectrum on this, but the conventional medical field has left a bad taste in my mouth after what we’ve gone through. Carol
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Colin, I realize that the information about the correllation between nutrition and health is out there; unfortunately, medical doctors will not educate their patients (and themselves) on this subject.
Actually, doctors do educate thier patients on the subject. The thing to remember is that the doctors stick to the actual facts (which is something the vitamin salesmen don’t do). I have had experience with both conventional doctors and alternative practitioners. I have dealt with a fairly broad sampling of both, and what I have seen is that the MD’s rely more on medications to treat symptoms, whereas alternative practitioners look deeper into what is actually causing the symptoms. Then, using nutritional therapy among other natural treatments, they try to help the body itself cope with the condition.
Have you taken a close look at the ’science’ supporting these nutrition claims? Nutritional therapy is only usefull for problems that are actually related to nutrition. Since asthma is not a nutritional problem, and since nutritional supplements have been shown to have no real effect on asthma (with one minor exception). Why should anybody waste thier money and support an industry that lies to its customers? As far as scientific research goes, what I witness with my own eyes is far more reliable research than something that has been tested on a bunch of rats, as far as I am concerned.
Didn’t you make the comment about the dangers of human bias in research? What measures do you take to ensure that what you witness with your own eyes, is actually there? I believe there is a need for both conventional and alternative medicine. I just don’t believe that being prescribed a medication to just cover up symptoms is very prudent when there is an alternative treatment out there that can help the body’s natural defenses deal with the problem. I guess we’re just probably at opposite ends of the spectrum on this, but the conventional medical field has left a bad taste in my mouth after what we’ve gone through.
How do you know what that alternative treatment is actually doing? Are you relying on the word of the person selling it to you? (And, is this a good idea?)
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Rick 