Question:

I know what you mean.  I live in the central valley of California, and during the summer we have pretty bad air pollution.  I drive to work every day, unable to see the mountains only 50 miles away, and I often have trouble breathing on particularly bad air days.  I wonder why I bothered to quit, since I suspect the air is probably doing as much damage to my lungs as smoking.  BUT, in all honesty, I still have less trouble climbing stairs and exercising than I used to, even on bad air days.  I think I’m more sensitive to air pollution now, without tobaccos anti-cough properties, but all the evidence indicates that I’m breathing better.  And my skin looks better.  And I actually had a cold this year and didn’t get bronchitis.  I guess that the air is enough for my lungs to handle, and I’m doing a lot of good by not piling smoke on top of that.  :-) Diane M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the reassurance Diane.  I KNOW quitting is good for me (DUH!) but sometimes I wonder if all the secondhand smoke is undoing my progress. Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 26 seconds. 459 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.39. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

I know what you mean.  I live in the central valley of California, and during the summer we have pretty bad air pollution.  I drive to work every day, unable to see the mountains only 50 miles away,

At least when I’m away from work the air is pure & clean!  (Takes deep breath)  Awwww…the aroma of pines trees and the faint scent fresh snow……wouldn’t want to mask this with smoke!   Chris

Response:

Thanks for the reassurance Diane.  I KNOW quitting is good for me (DUH!) but sometimes I wonder if all the secondhand smoke is undoing my progress. Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 26 seconds. 459 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.39. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

Don’t sweat it, okay?  The original studies on the dangers of secondhand smoke were done on wives of men who had smoked heavily for decades, and exposed their wives for all that time.  There are also proven connections between childhood asthma and smoking (there are even more solid connections between childhood asthma and air pollution, but nobody seems to care much about that).  The rest of the stuff is extrapolation, or, basically, guessing, which is what this study is doing.  They take what little is known, and extrapolate from it to make solid numbers that look impressive, but are based on a *lot* of guessing.   It’s an interesting mental exercise, but not something you should change your life over.  The negative effects of first-hand smoke are proven beyond reasonable doubt.    There is no doubt in my mind that you will benefit from quitting smoking, no matter how much second hand smoke you are exposed to. Diane M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find these secondhand smoke articles a little discouraging.  Working in a smoke filled environment it makes me wonder if quitting really does any good.  (But then I tell the Nicodemon to quit putting thoughts in my head. leaves 133-138 hours a week I am breathing good, clean air.  It may not be perfect but it’s loads better than it was.) Hope your quit is going good Xena Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 7 minutes and 13 seconds. 457 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.08. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

I find these secondhand smoke articles a little discouraging.  Working in a smoke filled environment it makes me wonder if quitting really does any good.  (But then I tell the Nicodemon to quit putting thoughts in my head. leaves 133-138 hours a week I am breathing good, clean air.  It may not be perfect but it’s loads better than it was.) Hope your quit is going good Xena Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 7 minutes and 13 seconds. 457 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.08. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Health – Reuters Secondhand Smoke May Cost $70 Per Person in US Thu. Nov. 14, 2002 By Alison McCook PHILADELPHIA (Reuters Health) – Wanna light up? Better ask your neighbors if they can afford it first. An estimate of the expenses associated with death and illness reveals that secondhand smoke may cost people in some US regions, if not the entire country, $70 a year. The findings are based on an analysis of the costs associated with environmental exposure to tobacco for residents from Marion County, Indiana, according to Dr. Terrell W. Zollinger of Indiana University in Bloomington. Among Marion County’s population of around 800,000, Zollinger and his colleagues estimated that the cost of diseases and deaths that resulted from secondhand smoke reached $56.2 million in the year 2000 alone. Of that total, $30.8 million stemmed from expenses linked to the premature deaths and illnesses in children exposed to secondhand smoke. These findings demonstrate in very real terms how a person’s choice to smoke is one that can impact an entire community, Zollinger said. "There’s a lot of people who say, ‘well, if somebody else wants to smoke, that’s fine. It doesn’t affect me.’ Well guess what? It does affect you," Zollinger said. In Marion County, Zollinger said that smoking is banned from government buildings and sports arenas, but bars and restaurants are free to permit smoking, and people always can become exposed to secondhand smoke in their home or with friends. In an interview with Reuters Health, Zollinger explained that he and his colleagues based their estimates on calculations of the costs associated with illnesses that are linked to secondhand smoke. In children, research suggests that breathing in cigarette smoke can increase their risk of asthma and having a relatively low weight at birth. Secondhand smoke in adults has been linked to many ills ranging from asthma, lung and cervical cancers, and stroke. However, those illnesses can also have other causes, the researcher noted. To determine what proportion of the price tag on each illness stems from secondhand smoke, Zollinger and his team applied so-called risk estimates. For example, around 33% of asthma deaths in adults are believed to stem from secondhand smoke, and 14% of office visits in children due to ear infections have been linked to exposure to tobacco. Consequently, 33% of the total cost associated with death from asthma in adults could be attributed to secondhand smoke, Zollinger said. Estimating the costs associated with loss of life was difficult, Zollinger admitted. He said he and his colleagues relied on a figure established earlier by the federal government, which placed the value of a human life to be at less than $1 million. He explained that he weighed that value according to how many years a person had lost as a result of an early death, with the death of a child–who lost perhaps 70 years of life–costing more than the death of an older adult, who had already realized most of his or her life expectancy. Zollinger noted that he expected the total cost of secondhand smoke would be much higher in larger counties, and suggested that other counties estimate the expenses associated with secondhand smoke, as well.

Response:

Health – Reuters Secondhand Smoke May Cost $70 Per Person in US Thu. Nov. 14, 2002 By Alison McCook PHILADELPHIA (Reuters Health) – Wanna light up? Better ask your neighbors if they can afford it first. An estimate of the expenses associated with death and illness reveals that secondhand smoke may cost people in some US regions, if not the entire country, $70 a year. The findings are based on an analysis of the costs associated with environmental exposure to tobacco for residents from Marion County, Indiana, according to Dr. Terrell W. Zollinger of Indiana University in Bloomington. Among Marion County’s population of around 800,000, Zollinger and his colleagues estimated that the cost of diseases and deaths that resulted from secondhand smoke reached $56.2 million in the year 2000 alone. Of that total, $30.8 million stemmed from expenses linked to the premature deaths and illnesses in children exposed to secondhand smoke. These findings demonstrate in very real terms how a person’s choice to smoke is one that can impact an entire community, Zollinger said. "There’s a lot of people who say, ‘well, if somebody else wants to smoke, that’s fine. It doesn’t affect me.’ Well guess what? It does affect you," Zollinger said. In Marion County, Zollinger said that smoking is banned from government buildings and sports arenas, but bars and restaurants are free to permit smoking, and people always can become exposed to secondhand smoke in their home or with friends. In an interview with Reuters Health, Zollinger explained that he and his colleagues based their estimates on calculations of the costs associated with illnesses that are linked to secondhand smoke. In children, research suggests that breathing in cigarette smoke can increase their risk of asthma and having a relatively low weight at birth. Secondhand smoke in adults has been linked to many ills ranging from asthma, lung and cervical cancers, and stroke. However, those illnesses can also have other causes, the researcher noted. To determine what proportion of the price tag on each illness stems from secondhand smoke, Zollinger and his team applied so-called risk estimates. For example, around 33% of asthma deaths in adults are believed to stem from secondhand smoke, and 14% of office visits in children due to ear infections have been linked to exposure to tobacco. Consequently, 33% of the total cost associated with death from asthma in adults could be attributed to secondhand smoke, Zollinger said. Estimating the costs associated with loss of life was difficult, Zollinger admitted. He said he and his colleagues relied on a figure established earlier by the federal government, which placed the value of a human life to be at less than $1 million. He explained that he weighed that value according to how many years a person had lost as a result of an early death, with the death of a child–who lost perhaps 70 years of life–costing more than the death of an older adult, who had already realized most of his or her life expectancy. Zollinger noted that he expected the total cost of secondhand smoke would be much higher in larger counties, and suggested that other counties estimate the expenses associated with secondhand smoke, as well.

Response:

I find these secondhand smoke articles a little discouraging.  Working in a smoke filled environment it makes me wonder if quitting really does any good.  (But then I tell the Nicodemon to quit putting thoughts in my head. leaves 133-138 hours a week I am breathing good, clean air.  It may not be perfect but it’s loads better than it was.) Hope your quit is going good Xena Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 7 minutes and 13 seconds. 457 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.08. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Don’t sweat it, okay?  The original studies on the dangers of secondhand smoke were done on wives of men who had smoked heavily for decades, and exposed their wives for all that time.  There are also proven connections between childhood asthma and smoking (there are even more solid connections between childhood asthma and air pollution, but nobody seems to care much about that).  The rest of the stuff is extrapolation, or, basically, guessing, which is what this study is doing.  They take what little is known, and extrapolate from it to make solid numbers that look impressive, but are based on a *lot* of guessing.   It’s an interesting mental exercise, but not something you should change your life over.  The negative effects of first-hand smoke are proven beyond reasonable doubt.    There is no doubt in my mind that you will benefit from quitting smoking, no matter how much second hand smoke you are exposed to. Diane M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find these secondhand smoke articles a little discouraging.  Working in a smoke filled environment it makes me wonder if quitting really does any good.  (But then I tell the Nicodemon to quit putting thoughts in my head. leaves 133-138 hours a week I am breathing good, clean air.  It may not be perfect but it’s loads better than it was.) Hope your quit is going good Xena Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 21 hours, 7 minutes and 13 seconds. 457 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.08. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 5 minutes.

Response:

Thanks for the reassurance Diane.  I KNOW quitting is good for me (DUH!) but sometimes I wonder if all the secondhand smoke is undoing my progress. Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 26 seconds. 459 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.39. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

I know what you mean.  I live in the central valley of California, and during the summer we have pretty bad air pollution.  I drive to work every day, unable to see the mountains only 50 miles away, and I often have trouble breathing on particularly bad air days.  I wonder why I bothered to quit, since I suspect the air is probably doing as much damage to my lungs as smoking.  BUT, in all honesty, I still have less trouble climbing stairs and exercising than I used to, even on bad air days.  I think I’m more sensitive to air pollution now, without tobaccos anti-cough properties, but all the evidence indicates that I’m breathing better.  And my skin looks better.  And I actually had a cold this year and didn’t get bronchitis.  I guess that the air is enough for my lungs to handle, and I’m doing a lot of good by not piling smoke on top of that.  :-) Diane M.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for the reassurance Diane.  I KNOW quitting is good for me (DUH!) but sometimes I wonder if all the secondhand smoke is undoing my progress. Chris f3as3 Off of smokes for  Three weeks, one day, 23 hours, 13 minutes and 26 seconds. 459 stinky cigarettes not smoked, saving $80.39. Life saved: 1 day, 14 hours, 15 minutes.

Response:

I know what you mean.  I live in the central valley of California, and during the summer we have pretty bad air pollution.  I drive to work every day, unable to see the mountains only 50 miles away,

At least when I’m away from work the air is pure & clean!  (Takes deep breath)  Awwww…the aroma of pines trees and the faint scent fresh snow……wouldn’t want to mask this with smoke!   Chris

Response:

Question:

DHEA may help allergies, asthma If research on mice holds up, DHEA may be an important new therapy for allergies and asthma. Researchers in Taiwan have uncovered mechanisms that explain how the hormone may affect allergic reactions. The research correlates with studies showing that adults with asthma have below-normal levels- of DHEA.

That’s nice.  But there is still a lot of work to be done – and about 90% of therapies that reach this stage fail later on. At best a therapy based on this would be several years away. "With Confidence in our Armed Forces –  with the determination of our people –  we will gain the inevitable triumph –  so help us god."   Franklin Delano Roseveldt, 8 december 1941

Response:

DHEA may help allergies, asthma If research on mice holds up, DHEA may be an important new therapy for allergies and asthma. Researchers in Taiwan have uncovered mechanisms that explain how the hormone may affect allergic reactions. The research correlates with studies showing that adults with asthma have below-normal levels- of DHEA. DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) is the most abundant adrenal hormone in the body. Known for its control over the immune system, DHEA has been used to reverse age-related immune decline. DHEA can actually alter the biochemistry of the immune system, and make it more balanced. In asthma, DHEA suppresses bio- chemicals that provoke the closing of air tubes and fluid build-up. In mice exposed to house dust mites, DHEA reduced the allergic response and counteracted inflammation. The hyper-immune response characteristic of asthma was dampened down to become more like the response an animal without asthma would have to the same allergen. It appears that one of the functions of DHEA is to counteract glucocorticoids and keep the body’s responses to potential allergens on an even keel. The authors of the study note that people who develop asthma as adults do so around age 40-the same time when DHEA levels naturally drop. It has been shown that older women who have asthma have lower levels of DHEA (and the sex hormones it converts to) than women without asthma. In a study on men and women, 40% with asthma had as low levels of DHEA as people with medical conditions that cause abnormally low adrenal function. Clearly, a lack of DHEA is associated with asthma- at least in adults. No correlation between DHEA levels and asthma has been found in children. Dunn PJ, et a!, 1984, Dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate con- centrations in asthmatic patients’ pilot study, NZ Med J 97′805-8, Nogueira JM, et at. 1998. Soluble CD30, dehydroepiandros- terone sulfate and dehydroepiandrosterone in atopic and non atopic children. AllerJ! ImmunoI30:3-8. Weinstein RE, et al. 19%. Decreased adrenal sex steroid levels in the absence of glucocorticoid suppression in post- menopausal asthmatic women.] Allergy Clin Immunol97 (I pt 1):1-8. Yu CK, et aI. 1999. Attenuation of house dust mite Dennatophagoides farinae-induced airway allergic responses in mice by dehydroepiandrosterone is correlated with dol11- regulation of TH2 response. Clin Exp AUergy 29.414-22. — Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities A. Einstein

Response:

Question:

experiences wanted by anyone who has tried Qvar aerosol 100(Beclomethasone Dipropionate) over a period of months.

Response:

experiences wanted by anyone who has tried Qvar aerosol 100(Beclomethasone Dipropionate) over a period of months.

Qvar hasn’t been approved for use in the US yet. It uses HFA propellant in a 3M breath actuated inhaler. I have used beclomethasone in a standard MDI inhaler; Beclovent, Vanceril, Vanceril DS. Beclomethasone is the original steroid inhaler for asthma. I now use Pulmicort [budesonide] a stronger inhaler. http://www.allergy.mcg.edu/news/deliver.html "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration recently accepted for  filing a new drug application (NDA) for QVAR(R) beclomethasone  dipropionate (BDP), a solution that delivers extra fine droplets  to the airways more efficiently. Because the smaller molecules  are delivered, the dosing of hydrofluoroalkine (HFA)-BDP can  be reduced by half, compared to a dose of CFC-BDP inhaler,  and still achieve the same efficacy." http://www.dotpharmacy.com/upgener2.html "While most inhaler manufacturers have yet to release a  CFC-free steroid inhaler, studies appear to show that those  combined with a non-CFC propellant (hydrofluoroalkanes) may  in some cases exhibit ’supra-bioavailability’. It is for  this reason that patients transferring from a CFC-containing  beclomethasone inhaler to 3M’s Qvar beclomethasone inhaler  (CFC-free) will generally need their usual maintenance dose  halved. Qvar inhalers should only be dispensed when  prescribed by proprietary name." http://www.open.gov.uk/mca/volume25mar.htm "Qvar is only licensed for the prophylactic management of mild,  moderate or severe asthma in adults. The specific formulation  of BDP in HFA-134a results in smaller BDP particles and  greater lung deposition when compared withCFC-BDP. Studies  have shown that the increased lung delivery results in a 2-2.5  fold greater potency of Qvar when compared with CFC-BDP. The  use of high doses of inhaled corticosteroids has been  associated with systemic adverse effects1. Therefore, it is  important that patients being switched from CFC-BDP to Qvar  are commenced on the appropriate equivalent dose. If patients on budesonide inhalers are to be transferred to Qvar,  the same instructions as described for CFC-BDP products should  be followed. If transferring patients on fluticasone inhalers,  the same total daily dose, up to a maximum of 800

Question:

Airway remodeling seems to be an area of concern, but also of some controversy.  Here’s a Medline discussion: http://www.medscape.com/medscape/cno/1999/ACAAI/Story.cfm?story_id=893

This is Medscape – not Medline.  I prefer to view the source documents. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

Hi Allan

Airway remodeling seems to be an area of concern, but also of some controversy.  Here’s a Medline discussion: http://www.medscape.com/medscape/cno/1999/ACAAI/Story.cfm?story_id=893

Thanks for drawing this to my attention. I have recently reviewed my ongoing medication reduction with my doctor. His view is, that as long as I am not getting any asthmatic episodes, it is sensible to slowly reduce my Becotide use to zero. The above discussion confirms my belief that, in the absence of any asthmatic episodes, the benefits of using Becotide to prevent airways remodelling are unproven. However the, albeit small, possibility that I may suffer side effects from long term use of Becotide is an accepted fact. So I plan to slowly reduce my Becotide use to zero. Norman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure there’s any compelling evidence that asthma gets steadily worse.  Lots of adults with asthma also have emphysema (mostly due to smoking), and emphysema is a progressive disease, so there may be an appearance of progression in asthma when it’s actually the emphysema. In other patients I suspect that the long-term use of steroids has a detrimental effect.  And the worst "progressive" effect of asthma is probably that is causes the patient to become inactive, and that inactivity (with associated weight gain, blood pressure problems, etc) accelerates any tendency toward cardio-pulmonary insufficiency. You want civil discourse but then post junk like this. This is unaldulterated bull-crap. You are so misinformed, what in the world possesses you to post as if you are an authority on this topic? Readers here should be warned that you do not know what you are talking about. In my mind you have not even cleared up the confusion about whether you even have asthma. Several of us apparently got the same impression that you did not and several of us found your story very peculiar. As an electrical engineer didn’t you get a rigourous scientific education? Or are you of the Peter Kolb mold?

1999 American College of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology Annual Meeting Day 4 – November 15, 1999 Airway Remodeling: Where’s the Evidence? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –       Dr. Calhoun, arguing against the concept that remodeling plays a significant role in the clinical status of asthma, pointed out that       we have no reliable way to measure this postulated development, nor is there much in the way of proof that it is clinically       significant.[19] He pointed out that only a subset of patients with asthma seems to develop fixed airway obstruction.       Dr. Calhoun questions the relationship between duration of asthma and loss of lung function, pointing to Reed’s study showing       that some patients had asthma for more than 70 years with essentially normal lung function.[15] He also pointed out Dompeling’s       study showing that treatment with inhaled beclomethasone dipropionate did not prevent the loss of lung function, although FEV1       was improved by treatment with this medication.[20]       Dr. Leff added that morphologic changes seen in patients with asthma are not related to clinical asthma status in any consistent       way, and that the structural changes seen in emphysema and chronic bronchitis explain the losses of lung function. He stated       that a correlation between airway remodeling and chronic irreversible asthma cannot be drawn with the current evidence we       have for patients with asthma.

Response:

1999 American College of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology Annual Meeting Day 4 – November 15, 1999 Airway Remodeling: Where’s the Evidence?

Okay, that is one article.  Now how many articles are there that conclude otherwise? Or do you simply ignore all the articles that you disagree with? It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

Sorry that the source didn’t have the imprimatur that you prefer, but we’re not practitioners are we?  This article was meant to convey that at the recent 1999 Annual Meeting of the American College of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology, a rather sprited debate on the significance of airway remodeling occurred. There are some researchers who doubt its impact. Since the concept is relatively new, it shouldn’t be surprising that there exists this discourse.  Other than its pedigree, what about the article do you find disagreement with? Summary of the article: The Debate Over Airway Remodeling      Pro…      Dr. Lieberman noted that there is a subset of patients with asthma who eventually develop severe, reversible lung  disease.[17] He cited data from Burrows in Arizona in which FEV1 is shown to increase up to the mid-20s, then  slowly declines with age. This fall-off is accentuated in patients with asthma. Dr. Lieberman also cited Tracey’s  work showing that declines in FEV1 were clearly related to the presence of atopy.[18] In that study, he said that  serum IgE levels may portend the fall in FEV1. He also cited some work in which there was a decrease in  sub-basement membrane thickening after removal from Toluene di-isocyanate (TDI) in the workplace in those  with TDI asthma.      Dr. Marshall reviewed the importance of a number of the inflammatory mediators. These include IL-4, which may serve as a mast cell growth factor and may upregulate the production of vascular cellular adhesion molecule [VCAM]); IL-5, which may serve as a chemotactic factor for eosinophils, as well as activating eosinophils; mast  cell mediators, responsible for much of the symptoms of asthma in the immediate airway response to inhaled antigen, as well as signaling for the recruitment of other inflammatory cells; and epithelial cells, with their  production of lipid mediators and nitric oxide production. He re-emphasized the fact that atopic patients may be at  increased risk of accelerated loss of lung function from asthma, compared with those without atopy.      Dr. Peters pointed out that airway remodeling is only important to the extent that it affects airway physiology, and noted that airway sub-basement membrane thickening occurs very early in the course of asthma. He also cited at  least one study by Haahtela in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1994, which showed that early use of  inhaled corticosteroids helped slow the fall in FEV1 in patients with asthma. Finally, he pointed out that airway  hyperreactivity may occur before the clinical onset of asthma symptoms.      And con…      Dr. Calhoun, arguing against the concept that remodeling plays a significant role in the clinical status of asthma,  pointed out that we have no reliable way to measure this postulated development, nor is there much in the way of  proof that it is clinically significant.[19] He pointed out that only a subset of patients with asthma seems to develop  fixed airway obstruction.      Dr. Calhoun questions the relationship between duration of asthma and loss of lung function, pointing to Reed’s  study showing that some patients had asthma for more than 70 years with essentially normal lung function.[15] He  also pointed out Dompeling’s study showing that treatment with inhaled beclomethasone dipropionate did not  prevent the loss of lung function, although FEV1 was improved by treatment with this medication.[20]    Dr. Leff added that morphologic changes seen in patients with asthma are not related to clinical asthma status in  any consistent way, and that the structural changes seen in emphysema and chronic bronchitis explain the losses of   lung function. He stated that a correlation between airway remodeling and chronic irreversible asthma cannot be  drawn with the current evidence we have for patients with asthma.      Dr. Wanner pointed out a study that showed no difference in the thickness of the basement membrane in patients  with mild, moderate, or severe asthma. He also reinforced Dr. Lange’s study showing accelerated decline of FEV1  in patients with asthma compared with patients without asthma, but summarized by saying that airway remodeling  is still "just a concept."      In summary, the debate over the importance of the concept of "airway remodeling" in producing clinical worsening  of asthma or chronic irreversible airway obstruction continues, without clear resolution. Until clear answers   are   forthcoming, decisions regarding chronic therapy should continue to weigh the risks and benefits of various  treatment choices combined with the evidence available at the time of treatment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Airway remodeling seems to be an area of concern, but also of some controversy.  Here’s a Medline discussion: http://www.medscape.com/medscape/cno/1999/ACAAI/Story.cfm?story_id=893 This is Medscape – not Medline.  I prefer to view the source documents. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t asthma a progressive disease?  You could be just getting worse over time which results in outbreaks. Have you considered or tried any topical steroids? They might prevent some of the deterioration as well as preventing these severe attacks. Linda There is very strong evidence that asthma is a progressive disease for at least some people. This is why the current ’standard of care’ is for all asthmatics to be on some sort of anti inflammatory medication.

What are the typical anti-inflamitories used? Thanks.

Response:

What has this group come to? About one year ago there was really a much higher ratio of informed discussion vs speculative alterno-med pseudoscience. It felt like a community and there was great input from several medical professionals. How did this group become a lightening rod for every crank with their own pet theory of asthma and its treatment?

A combination of desperate people and money to be made.  Well, that’s one possibility.  But this NG appears to be pretty moderate IMO. Nothing too bad.  You should see some others.

Response:

This is why the current ’standard of care’ is for all asthmatics to be on some sort of anti inflammatory medication. What are the typical anti-inflamitories used? Thanks.

Generally, it will be either an inhaled steroid (Pulmicort, Flovent, Azmacort, Vanceril, etc) or one of the leukotrines inhibitors (Accolate, Singulair, Zyflo). It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

I’m not sure there’s any compelling evidence that asthma gets steadily worse.  Lots of adults with asthma also have emphysema (mostly due to smoking), and emphysema is a progressive disease, so there may be an appearance of progression in asthma when it’s actually the emphysema. In other patients I suspect that the long-term use of steroids has a detrimental effect.  And the worst "progressive" effect of asthma is probably that is causes the patient to become inactive, and that inactivity (with associated weight gain, blood pressure problems, etc) accelerates any tendency toward cardio-pulmonary insufficiency.

Boy Daniel, you really need to start looking some things up and doing some reading before you post this stuff. There is considerable evidence that uncontrolled asthma is progressive. Not everybody agrees that it is from remodeling but it is definitely progressive. Your thoughts about deconditioning are wild speculation. The association you express between asthma and emphysema demonstrates an understanding only a bit deeper than cursory. Your comments about inhaled steroids are ignorant and irresponsible. Please buy a good book before expressing any more of these "opinions." — CBI, M.D. Please note: It is impossible to accurately diagnose medical problems without seeing the patient and reviewing the entire history. These posts are intended to be helpful and informative. Always check with your doctor before following any advice given.

Response:

Airway remodeling seems to be an area of concern, but also of some controversy.  Here’s a Medline discussion: http://www.medscape.com/medscape/cno/1999/ACAAI/Story.cfm?story_id=893 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure there’s any compelling evidence that asthma gets steadily worse. Do a medline search using ‘airways remodeling’ as keywords.  This was discovered a couple of years ago. Lots of adults with asthma also have emphysema (mostly due to smoking), and emphysema is a progressive disease, so there may be an appearance of progression in asthma when it’s actually the emphysema. It has been determined that the lung function of asthmatics frequently diminishes over time. In other patients I suspect that the long-term use of steroids has a detrimental effect.  And the worst "progressive" effect of asthma is probably that is causes the patient to become inactive, and that inactivity (with associated weight gain, blood pressure problems, etc) accelerates any tendency toward cardio-pulmonary insufficiency. I suggest that you review the actual scientific research.  The people studying the problem disagree with you. Here are some articles you should look up: Monaldi Arch Chest Dis 1999 Aug;54(4):350-2 Prognosis of adult asthma. Lange P J Allergy Clin Immunol 1999 Apr;103(4):539-47 The natural history of asthma in adults: the problem of irreversibility. Reed CE Eur Respir J 1999 Apr;13(4):904-18 Outcome of asthma: longitudinal changes in lung function. Ulrik CS Monaldi Arch Chest Dis 1997 Dec;52(6):589-96 The functional consequences of airway remodeling in asthma. Pare PD, Roberts CR, Bai TR, Wiggs BJ Am Rev Respir Dis 1989 Jan;139(1):242-6 The mechanics of airway narrowing in asthma. James AL, Pare PD, Hogg JC Am Rev Respir Dis 1992 Jun;145(6):1251-8 A model of airway narrowing in asthma and in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Wiggs BR, Bosken C, Pare PD, James A, Hogg JC Ciba Found Symp 1997;206:71-86; discussion 86-9, 106-10 The structural and functional consequences of chronic allergic inflammation of the airways. Pare PD, Bai TR, Roberts CR It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

Response:

I’m not sure there’s any compelling evidence that asthma gets steadily worse.  Lots of adults with asthma also have emphysema (mostly due to smoking), and emphysema is a progressive disease, so there may be an appearance of progression in asthma when it’s actually the emphysema. In other patients I suspect that the long-term use of steroids has a detrimental effect.  And the worst "progressive" effect of asthma is probably that is causes the patient to become inactive, and that inactivity (with associated weight gain, blood pressure problems, etc) accelerates any tendency toward cardio-pulmonary insufficiency. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t asthma a progressive disease?  You could be just getting worse over time which results in outbreaks. Have you considered or tried any topical steroids? They might prevent some of the deterioration as well as preventing these severe attacks. Linda Hi,  I have suffered from asthma all my life and I am now in my fifties. I use ventalin to obtain relief. In the last couple of years I have suffered severe attacks which do not respond to ventalin and no known cause of these attacks can be identified. For some reason they mainly occur during the evening or night. On one occasion I was rushed to hospital because of one of these types of attacks. Any ideas? Also I thought I would pass on the fact that I have been taking 900mg of magnesium daily. Since starting taking magnesium, I now do not use my ventolin except on the odd occasion  (maybe once or twice a week during the allergy season instaed of many times daily). However, magnesium does not help the severe attacks that I mentioned above. Chris E

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A observation on Asthma that does not respond to treatment. My wife suffered from "Asthma"  for 3 1/2 years until she was properly evaluated and given a complete PFT and told "you do not have Asthma". Her Doctor had tried about every type of asthma medicine on her with minimal results, that is when he finally sent her to a specialist. What she did find out was she had VCD or Vocal Cord Dysfunction. She was sent to a speech therapist and was "cured"  in approximately three to 4 weeks. In this the vocal cords close during times of stress, exposure to an allergen, or physical stress. I placed the word cured in quotes because she is not actually cured but is able to control it. She was very and still is sensitive to cigarette smoke, but now with the training she has received can control her vocal cords. Anyone needing more information please feel free to contact me. Dan Schellenbach

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t asthma a progressive disease?  You could be just getting worse over time which results in outbreaks. Have you considered or tried any topical steroids? They might prevent some of the deterioration as well as preventing these severe attacks. Linda Hi,  I have suffered from asthma all my life and I am now in my fifties. I use ventalin to obtain relief. In the last couple of years I have suffered severe attacks which do not respond to ventalin and no known cause of these attacks can be identified. For some reason they mainly occur during the evening or night. On one occasion I was rushed to hospital because of one of these types of attacks. Any ideas? Also I thought I would pass on the fact that I have been taking 900mg of magnesium daily. Since starting taking magnesium, I now do not use my ventolin except on the odd occasion  (maybe once or twice a week during the allergy season instaed of many times daily). However, magnesium does not help the severe attacks that I mentioned above. Chris E

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Isn’t asthma a progressive disease?  You could be just getting worse over time which results in outbreaks. Have you considered or tried any topical steroids? They might prevent some of the deterioration as well as preventing these severe attacks. Linda

There is very strong evidence that asthma is a progressive disease for at least some people. This is why the current ’standard of care’ is for all asthmatics to be on some sort of anti inflammatory medication. It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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I’m not sure there’s any compelling evidence that asthma gets steadily worse.

Do a medline search using ‘airways remodeling’ as keywords.  This was discovered a couple of years ago. Lots of adults with asthma also have emphysema (mostly due to smoking), and emphysema is a progressive disease, so there may be an appearance of progression in asthma when it’s actually the emphysema.

It has been determined that the lung function of asthmatics frequently diminishes over time. In other patients I suspect that the long-term use of steroids has a detrimental effect.  And the worst "progressive" effect of asthma is probably that is causes the patient to become inactive, and that inactivity (with associated weight gain, blood pressure problems, etc) accelerates any tendency toward cardio-pulmonary insufficiency.

I suggest that you review the actual scientific research.  The people studying the problem disagree with you. Here are some articles you should look up: Monaldi Arch Chest Dis 1999 Aug;54(4):350-2 Prognosis of adult asthma. Lange P J Allergy Clin Immunol 1999 Apr;103(4):539-47 The natural history of asthma in adults: the problem of irreversibility. Reed CE Eur Respir J 1999 Apr;13(4):904-18 Outcome of asthma: longitudinal changes in lung function. Ulrik CS Monaldi Arch Chest Dis 1997 Dec;52(6):589-96   The functional consequences of airway remodeling in asthma. Pare PD, Roberts CR, Bai TR, Wiggs BJ Am Rev Respir Dis 1989 Jan;139(1):242-6 The mechanics of airway narrowing in asthma. James AL, Pare PD, Hogg JC Am Rev Respir Dis 1992 Jun;145(6):1251-8   A model of airway narrowing in asthma and in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Wiggs BR, Bosken C, Pare PD, James A, Hogg JC Ciba Found Symp 1997;206:71-86; discussion 86-9, 106-10 The structural and functional consequences of chronic allergic inflammation of the airways. Pare PD, Bai TR, Roberts CR It’s a terrible responsibility – but somebody has to be the Americans.

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Isn’t asthma a progressive disease?  You could be just getting worse over time which results in outbreaks. Have you considered or tried any topical steroids? They might prevent some of the deterioration as well as preventing these severe attacks. Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,  I have suffered from asthma all my life and I am now in my fifties. I use ventalin to obtain relief. In the last couple of years I have suffered severe attacks which do not respond to ventalin and no known cause of these attacks can be identified. For some reason they mainly occur during the evening or night. On one occasion I was rushed to hospital because of one of these types of attacks. Any ideas? Also I thought I would pass on the fact that I have been taking 900mg of magnesium daily. Since starting taking magnesium, I now do not use my ventolin except on the odd occasion  (maybe once or twice a week during the allergy season instaed of many times daily). However, magnesium does not help the severe attacks that I mentioned above. Chris E

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Hi,  I have suffered from asthma all my life and I am now in my fifties. I use ventalin to obtain relief. In the last couple of years I have suffered severe attacks which do not respond to ventalin and no known cause of these attacks can be identified. For some reason they mainly occur during the evening or night. On one occasion I was rushed to hospital because of one of these types of attacks. Any ideas? Also I thought I would pass on the fact that I have been taking 900mg of magnesium daily. Since starting taking magnesium, I now do not use my ventolin except on the odd occasion  (maybe once or twice a week during the allergy season instaed of many times daily). However, magnesium does not help the severe attacks that I mentioned above. Chris E

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Hi,  I have suffered from asthma all my life and I am now in my fifties. I use ventalin to obtain relief. In the last couple of years I have suffered severe attacks which do not respond to ventalin and no known cause of these attacks can be identified. For some reason they mainly occur during the evening or night. On one occasion I was rushed to hospital because of one of these types of attacks. Any ideas?

Go back to your doctor and get your medications checked out.  It sounds like you have lost control of your asthma at the moment. Also I thought I would pass on the fact that I have been taking 900mg of magnesium daily. Since starting taking magnesium, I now do not use my ventolin except on the odd occasion  (maybe once or twice a week during the allergy season instaed of many times daily). However, magnesium does not help the severe attacks that I mentioned above. Chris E

– Surfer!

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By Karla Harby SAN DIEGO, Mar 07 (Reuters Health) – The first known case of a life-threatening allergic reaction to a pet ferret has been reported here at the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology annual meeting. The patient, a 41-year-old nonsmoking man with asthma, had to be intubated and placed on a respirator after washing his ferret in his bathtub, reported Dr. Richard Lockey of the University of South Florida College of Medicine in Tampa. Prior to this asthma attack, the patient had observed urticaria (hives) on his abdomen after placing his ferret there, on his bare skin. Because they could not locate commercially prepared ferret allergen, Dr. Lockey and colleagues prepared it in their laboratory so that the patient could be skin tested. The patient tested positive, confirming that the ferret was the cause of the asthma attack. Dr. Lockey said that some individual animals of the same species evoke stronger allergic reactions than other individuals, and there is some evidence that male cats cause more allergy problems than female cats. Published case reports also document allergic reactions to mink, gerbils and Guinea pigs, but never before a ferret, he said. Dr. Lockey suggested that the public should be better educated regarding the allergic potential of pet ownership. "We’ve told people that smoking is very hazardous," Dr. Lockey said. "In the same way, animals don’t belong in homes, period. I really believe that." In this case, despite having been placed in a life-threatening situation, the patient decided to keep his ferret. "When asked to choose between the pet and people, most patients choose the pet," Dr. Lockey said. This was taken from Medscape

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Dr. Lockey suggested that the public should be better educated regarding the allergic potential of pet ownership. "We’ve told people that smoking is very hazardous," Dr. Lockey said. "In the same way, animals don’t belong in homes, period. I really believe that." In this case, despite having been placed in a life-threatening situation, the patient decided to keep his ferret. "When asked to choose between the pet and people, most patients choose the pet," Dr. Lockey said. This was taken from Medscape I’d be curious about the sequel to this story, how the man involved survives his ferret. (Remove "nospam" from email address)

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Sorry to disagree Colin, but this is not true.  You CAN recover from asthma.  I know a pre-schooler, a teenager, and myself who have done it!  Maybe you are the one who needs to learn more. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 4 year old daughter coughs a lot at night.  Doc says its asthma. Anyway of nipping this in the bud ??? There Is No Cure For Asthma.  Period. My advice would be to ask for a second opinion from an asthma specialist.  And if it is confirmed as asthma, you need to learn everything you can about the disease and its treatment. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

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People who start with asthma as adults do *not* recover. Those who are asthmatic as children sometimes ‘grow out’ of asthma in their teens though in many cases this is remission, not cure.  In other words it comes back later in life. Do not count on being able to ‘cure’ your daughter of asthma.  Get a good specialist, follow their advice and find out all you can about the disease. Coughing at night is miserable.  This was my main initial symptom.  I was missing sleep and the sleep I did get was poor as my breathing was noisy.  I didn’t realise how awful I felt until I started to get better, which was when I started using a steroid inhaler.  Then I slept really well for a couple of weeks for 10-12 hours per night and ended up feeling great! writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sorry to disagree Colin, but this is not true.  You CAN recover from asthma.  I know a pre-schooler, a teenager, and myself who have done it!  Maybe you are the one who needs to learn more. Karen 4 year old daughter coughs a lot at night.  Doc says its asthma. Anyway of nipping this in the bud ??? There Is No Cure For Asthma.  Period. My advice would be to ask for a second opinion from an asthma specialist.  And if it is confirmed as asthma, you need to learn everything you can about the disease and its treatment. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

– Surfer!

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You should keep a very clean indoor environment. Vacuum often. Consider putting a good HEPA air cleaner in her bedroom so the air in that room stays as clean as possible. I feel that the Austin Air Healthmate brand is the best unit on the market. Ask the doctor when she will be old enough to be tested and have it done if the asthma keeps up or gets worse. I wish her the best of health!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 4 year old daughter coughs a lot at night.  Doc says its asthma. Anyway of nipping this in the bud ??? Before you buy.

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4 year old daughter coughs a lot at night.  Doc says its asthma. Anyway of nipping this in the bud ???

There Is No Cure For Asthma.  Period. My advice would be to ask for a second opinion from an asthma specialist.  And if it is confirmed as asthma, you need to learn everything you can about the disease and its treatment. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

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You should keep a very clean indoor environment. Vacuum often. Consider putting a good HEPA air cleaner in her bedroom so the air in that room stays as clean as possible. I feel that the Austin Air Healthmate brand is the best unit on the market. Ask the doctor when she will be old enough to be tested and have it done if the asthma keeps up or gets worse. I wish her the best of health!

Has it occurred to you that this is a support group and not a marketing group? Lay off the sales pitches. No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

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4 year old daughter coughs a lot at night.  Doc says its asthma. Anyway of nipping this in the bud ??? Before you buy.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It ALSO does not mean that the adjustment was the _cause_ of the lowering of the blood sugar in that single case.    There may have been other factors that have not been accounted for to explain the decrease in blood sugar. This is where science and controlled clinical studies can be of use.        True.  But it shows a correlation that can be studied further. I am all for studying it but we must remember that correlation does not imply causation.

        But you’ll never get anywhere without trying the treatment.        No…we’re talking about reasonable correlation, not coincidence. There is no harm in trying to manage a cse of diabetes chiropractically. Perhaps there is harm in trying to manage diabetes chiropractically especially if an MD is not first consulted and the patient evaluated by an MD.  

        I disagree.  Diabetes is rarely in such a stage that it requires immediate medical attention.  In fact, on the average, 12 years passes between the time a person develops diabetes mellitus and the time the disease is diagnosed (Tufts University Diet and Nutrition Letter.  1996; 14[10]:7). Therefore, there is usually no harm in a patient giving a few adjustments a try before getting a prescription. A DC is fully qualified to recognize and diagnose the condition, then manage the case as he sees fit.  Most DC’s consult an MD on the case anyway, especially since most DC’s do not do lab testing within their clinical setting (cost, mainly, plus the hassle of hiring the right people and all the legal considerations…). Some diabetics need insulin to prevent very serious complications from the diabetes such as hyperosmolar coma secondary to markedly elevated blood glucose.

        I don’t know if I would suggest that a patient STOP taking medication for a condition like that.  Anyway, it would be against the law.  DC’s cannot recommend any changes in drug therapy currently being used by their patients. If a patient wanted to get off their insulin injections and try chiropractic, it would require very close monitoring as well as  an interdisciplinary approach with their medical doctor.  Otherwise it would be illegal, as well as irresponsible, in my opinion. Are chiropractors trained to evaluate the risk for developing severe complications??

        Yep, but they can’t recommend what you proposed anyway, so it’s a moot point. These complications can occur rather rapidly in "brittle diabetics" and it is nothing to play around with.

        Exactly.  This is where the judgment of the doctor comes in.  In any case, as I stated before, it isn’t even a possibility that a DC can take a patient off meds, so… Patients are not guinea pigs to try adjustments to see what happens unless it is part of a clinical study.

        No one said they were.  If a patient wants to get off their medication, or not have to start taking it in the first place, there is room to work. Hopefully if chiropractors adjust diabetics that they inform them that there is no scientific evidence for efficacy and at best there are anecdotes and an untested theory (vertebral subluxation as cause of some diabetes).

        As I am sure any responsible DC would and does.  If the condition does not improve after a few adjustments (determined by close monitoring of blood glucose level), then a need to refer the case to an MD who can write a prescription is obviously in order.  Conventional wisdom says go for the safest, most conservative treatment first. Fine. Then why not just have them pray and see if that works.

        Their choice. Where is the evidence that chiropractic adjustment works better than prayer for diabetes??

        Because I haven’t seen any case studies (a valid and accepted form of research) show up in any reputable (or otherwise) journal that suggests prayer and diabetes have any correlation.  This does exist for chiropractic, on the other hand. On the other hand, DC’s have "treated" and controlled almost every disease process known (check out case studies, especially those that are being collected from the Palmer clinics). Again we do know have any credible evidence that it is chiropractic adjustments that _caused_ the improvement in any of these diseases.        You could use the same argument for anything.  How do we KNOW that a surgery helped out a patient.  It could be conincidence in every case.  How do we know aspirin can be used as a blood thinning agent? We know the pharmacologic effects of aspirin and its anti clotting effects.

        Last time I looked the exact mechanism, of aspirin remains a mystery. What was that you were saying about patients not being used as guinea pigs??? Controlled clinical studies have demonstrated fairly convincingly the prophyllactic effect against heart disease of taking aspirin.

        But it still COULD be a coincidence. You can use the same argument for everything but there IS a difference between therapies which have been studied using good methodology and just anecdotes.

        But you can’t be 100% sure that these aren’t just all coincidences, right? Maybe it’s just a matter of temporal coincidence.  Chiropractic has been shown to have measurable, repeatable effects in the physiology of the patient. What measureable effects are you referring to??

        Release of endorphins for one. One notable paper shows the increase of endorphins immediately following chiropractic adjustments.  If the body can have an immediate reaction of this type, then it stands to reason that other reactions may and most likely are occurring as a direct result of adjusting procedures. Sure anything is possible. But to firmly believe something as if it were gospel (like the sky is blue) based upon maybe it being true is rather presumptuous.

        I’ve posted the study here before.  Why don’t you look it up and point out flaws you are so convinced must exist in it. The key is getting the funds to study it on wider scales, which at this time is difficult. I am glad to see that you are seeing the value of studies and not just saying that "some things are obvious and need no testing".

        Some things are obvious and don’t need testing, but in order to find out the possible percentage of patients that can be helped by chiropractic with a given "disease" then studies must be employed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???        If it convinces the patient that it is having a positive effect and the "disease" is cured through psychosomatic means, then yes, it is working for a serious illness.  I am sure there are documented cases of prayer working to "cure disease".  Chiropractic has a much better defined anatomic and physiological basis than prayer, though, and stronger correlations from clinical trials and case studies. I don’t think that chiropractic has stronger correlation from clinical trials than prayer for many human diseases.

        You’re allowed to think whatever you want.  Medical treatments have about as much hope as a prayer, too, for some conditions.  You can’t do everything with any one system of health care. Maybe for low back pain but for most diseases such as diabetes, hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism there is just not the evidence. It is just wishful thinking.

        Not really.  It’s just a matter of clearly defining the criteria that are required for a condition to be helped chiropractically.  If these studies are produced and the conclusion is that chiropractic can’t help any of them, then you can say "wishful thinking," but until then…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently. Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement.        Like what?  As I said, this can be said of any treatment, then, chiropractic, medical, etc. You are correct. Unless there are a number of well controlled studies that consistently show a relationship between the treatment and the effect in which case you cannot say it as convincingly . Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc. Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions.        And remember that this is one group of researcher’s opinions based on their own analyses…the quality of chiropractic research is higher than what they suggest, in my opinion. But what do you base this opinion on?? You are just a student in his first year. The authors were composed of PhD’s and had expertise in evaluating clinical studies. Why is your opinion valid and theirs not??

        I never said theirs wasn’t valid.  What I said was that the group did their analysis and based an opinion on it.  Just because it makes it into a journal does not mean it is 100% correct.  I feel that the quality of chiropractic research is higher than they suggest.  They did a limited analysis of some various studies.  They by no means looked at every study that has been done.  As with anything, take it with a grain of salt, or a few, if you like. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There are references and I would suggest checking out the primary sources to see how "good" these studies are. A study is only as good as the methodology used.        True enough.

… read more »

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We know the pharmacologic effects of aspirin and its anti clotting effects.    Last time I looked the exact mechanism, of aspirin remains a mystery. And you claimed to be a chemistry major:-) Look again. Aspirin is an inhibitor of endogenous prostaglandin synthesis. Inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis results in interference with platelet aggregation which is the mechanism by which it is believed to prevent atherosclerosis.    And what other physiological effects does aspirin have?

If you look at my statement I _specifically_ referred to the anti clotting mechanism of aspirin. But as is typical of your replies you are now invoking the "we don’t know everything about it" argument. Well what DO we know everything about Stevie?? Controlled clinical studies have demonstrated fairly convincingly the prophyllactic effect against heart disease of taking aspirin.    But it still COULD be a coincidence. Yes, Stevie. Anything is possible. Again I am not sure why you are making this argument since it could be applied to anything that we do.    That’s the exact point I’m trying to make.  You say that chiropractic isn’t proven, we don’t know it’s total effects, etc etc etc.

No Stevie it is much more than that. We have a dearth of clinical studies that demonstrate the claims that chiropractic adjustments can help improve a person’s overall health.   So, I pointed out the fact that this could be said abot anything, not just chiropractic.  I believe in using the same standards, not judging one form of health care on one set of criteria, and others on different sets.

You just don’t get it and it is unlikely that you will. There is a difference between having confidence in a therapy which has undergone rigorous and well designed clinical studies (no not 100% but nothing is) and a therapy which has inconclusive studies demonstrating efficacy for non musculoskeletal conditions. The question is _not_ whether it could be a coincidence. The question is what is the _likelihood_ of it being a coincidence. This is where clinical studies can be useful. If you are going to invoke the "anything is possible" argument then there is no point in continuing a discussion. But it does give some insight into how desperate you are in trying to make an argument for the efficacy of chiropractic.    I’m not "desperate"!

No Stevie. Of course you are not. Although your emotionally charged posts seem to indicate something else.   If every DC in the world put all of their cases together, and add into that the clinical reserach that has been done, and that likeliehood is highlu UNLIKELY.

What makes you think that all the chiropractors have had positive results in non musculoskeletal conditions??? It is just wishful thinking of someone who must justify his existence in his chose field. It is wishful thinking.    Some things are obvious and don’t need testing, but in order to find out the possible percentage of patients that can be helped by chiropractic with a given "disease" then studies must be employed. Yes some things are obvious and don’t need testing. Do you think that the theory that vertebral subluxation and nerve interference are the cause of human disease is one of these things that need no proof??    Considering I’ve never said that, why would you think so?  Subulxation is a predisposing factor of disease, and strong correlations have been made.

Correlation does not imply causation. Perhaps you forgot about "the sky is blue" comparison. Perhaps this could refresh your memory: How do you know that the diagnosis is accurate?? Are there studies on interrater reliability of chiropractic diagnoses??? Just because you SAY that chiropractic diagnoses are accurate does not make it so.        I haven’t seen any studies that definitively prove that the sky is blue, either, yet most people agree it is!

So I stand corrected. You are saying that we don’t need studies to look at interrater reliability of chiropractic diagnoses since most people agree that the "sky is blue". Now there is compelling logic:-))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Who knows? At times the body may need the nerve flow to be less to avoid overstimulation and the spinal adjustment may actually cause harm.    Whether you know it or not (you don’t), you’ve just stumbled upon one of the primary aspects of the vertebral subluxation model.  Early in the days of chiropractic DD Palmer stated that chiropractic resumes normal nervous flow (what he called "tone") to irritated nervous structures.  He firmly postulated that this flow could be "too much" or "too little".  Regardless of whether it is, the adjustment brings the condition back to homeostasis by influencing a complicated network of reflex arcs.  Spinal adjusting can very well cause harm, but not if the doctor uses the proper methods of locating subluxations and correcting them to the degree needed.

Well Stevie, tell us how you figure out how much nerve flow is optimal and how you measure this nerve flow after adjustment?? This should be good. Don’t hold your breath waiting for reply. Perhaps there is some feedback mechanism that reduces nerve output in order to restore homeostasis to the body. I have no evidence to support this theory but it is as rational IMO as the theory that maximum nerve transmission is ALWAYS beneficial to the body.    Maximum nerve transmission is NOT always beneficial to the body. Regulated, homeostatic nerve flow IS!  DC’s never have sought to produce maxiumum nervous flow.

How do you MEASURE nerve flow Stevie???? Do chiropractors have special nerve flow meters to measure it???? Not true. The illness may have improved by itself with no intervention. Sometimes this happens. We don’t know for sure why many people recover from serious illness despite lack of treatment.    Because their body heals itself.  The body is more intelligent than most health care systems give it credit!

You are quite correct. And chiropractic takes advantage of the body’s innate healing ability claiming that it facilitates this healing when there is inconclusive evidence (see studies) of this. Placebos work too. Does chiropractic work better than placebo for non musculosketal conditions?? Yes I know Stevie. If we ask all the worlds DC’s we will have the evidence. BZZZZZT. Wrong. Check out the controlled studies that look for chiropractic evidence in non musculoskeletal conditions. Funny that the studies don’t seem to indicate what you _think_ is the case. Actually it does NOT. Look at the studies for nonmusculoskeletal conditions (see review article) and see how strong the correlations are. They are simply not there as much as you would like to think that they are.    According to one article, of course.

Again you have not given a single specific reason that this article is incorrect.    Not really.  It’s just a matter of clearly defining the criteria that are required for a condition to be helped chiropractically.  If these studies are produced and the conclusion is that chiropractic can’t help any of them, then you can say "wishful thinking," but until then…. No Stevie. You have it backwards. Surprise, surprise. You don’t _wait_ until studies are negative to say something is wishful thinking. Would you say that it is wishful thinking that standing on your head will cure all cancers?? Or will you say that it is not wishful thinking until you do a study that shows that standing on your head does not help?? You cannot be that stupid can you??:-))))    Again with the insults.  I guess when you’re at the end of your rope you have to do something, eh?

Notice Stevie that BEFORE I made the insult (which you really deserved given your statement) that I logically explained why what you said was incorrect. If you want to avoid being called an idiot then stop making idiotic statements. It is very simple. You are your own worst enemy. Aloha, Rich PS notice that Steve did not explain the error in the conclusions of this 732 line article about chiropractic research and the lack of evidence for effectiveness in non musculoskeletal conditions. See below: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  I feel that the quality of chiropractic research is higher than they suggest. I know that you do. However you have not given a _single_ valid reason for this belief or give any credible argument for why their conclusions are not valid. They did a limited analysis of some various studies.  They by no means looked at every study that has been done. I bet they looked at more studies than you have. If you read the article they did a very comprehensive review of the literature. If you think that there are studies that contradict their conclusions then post them. But just saying that they have not looked at _all_ the studies is again a very weak argument.  If you really want an idea of the magnitude of chiropractic I suggest contacting the Research Department at Palmer College where all of the old clinic histories are being put on computer.  There are really fascinating cases there and they will soon be availabel to anyone with a CD-ROM capability. I realize that you want so much for there to be validity to chiropractic being effective for general prevention of disease but these old case studies don’t do it.   And each one is solidly supported by medical opinion/diagnosis/evaluation methods. Each one Stevie????? I must say you are a strong advocate for chiropractic. However you are a rigid one note ideologue with not much credible scientific evidence to support

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We know the pharmacologic effects of aspirin and its anti clotting effects.        Last time I looked the exact mechanism, of aspirin remains a mystery. And you claimed to be a chemistry major:-) Look again. Aspirin is an inhibitor of endogenous prostaglandin synthesis. Inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis results in interference with platelet aggregation which is the mechanism by which it is believed to prevent atherosclerosis.

        And what other physiological effects does aspirin have?  Its total effect on the human organism is by and large still unknown.  It’s blood thinning capabilities may be well understood, which I didn’t contend, but it’s other properties are, as I stated, a mystery for the most part. Now if you are going to say that we are not 100% sure about this then I don’t know what to say. What ARE we 100% sure of?? We may as well not discuss anything if you want to invoke that argument. But I could understand why you are invoking it. There is not much else you can argue.

        I can argue all you want.  All I’m saying is that if you have one standard for chiropractic then have the same standard for medicine.  It should be a simple thing to not have to rely on double standards, no? I am not sure what you mean by _exact_?? If you want to get into semantic argument then one could say that we don’t know the exact mechanism of anything for sure. But I am not sure where we are going with this discussion.

        It’s beyond me at this point! What was that you were saying about patients not being used as guinea pigs??? Controlled clinical studies have demonstrated fairly convincingly the prophyllactic effect against heart disease of taking aspirin.        But it still COULD be a coincidence. Yes, Stevie. Anything is possible. Again I am not sure why you are making this argument since it could be applied to anything that we do.

        That’s the exact point I’m trying to make.  You say that chiropractic isn’t proven, we don’t know it’s total effects, etc etc etc.  So, I pointed out the fact that this could be said abot anything, not just chiropractic.  I believe in using the same standards, not judging one form of health care on one set of criteria, and others on different sets. The question is _not_ whether it could be a coincidence. The question is what is the _likelihood_ of it being a coincidence. This is where clinical studies can be useful. If you are going to invoke the "anything is possible" argument then there is no point in continuing a discussion. But it does give some insight into how desperate you are in trying to make an argument for the efficacy of chiropractic.

        I’m not "desperate"!  I’m just pointing out yet another flaw in your argument.  My question is what is the likeliehood that all chiropractic adjustments and the results gained from them have been nothing but coincidences?  If every DC in the world put all of their cases together, and add into that the clinical reserach that has been done, and that likeliehood is highlu UNLIKELY. You can use the same argument for everything but there IS a difference between therapies which have been studied using good methodology and just anecdotes.        But you can’t be 100% sure that these aren’t just all coincidences, right? You cannot be 100% sure of anything although your IQ not being above room temp is getting close.

        Interesting use of insults, Rich Jacobson.  I like the fact that you have met a point in your argument where you know you’re wrong, so you are trying to provoke a pisssing match so you can call me a big baby.  Please don’t stray from the subject by trying to insult me.        Some things are obvious and don’t need testing, but in order to find out the possible percentage of patients that can be helped by chiropractic with a given "disease" then studies must be employed. Yes some things are obvious and don’t need testing. Do you think that the theory that vertebral subluxation and nerve interference are the cause of human disease is one of these things that need no proof??

        Considering I’ve never said that, why would you think so?  Subulxation is a predisposing factor of disease, and strong correlations have been made. Who knows? At times the body may need the nerve flow to be less to avoid overstimulation and the spinal adjustment may actually cause harm.

        Whether you know it or not (you don’t), you’ve just stumbled upon one of the primary aspects of the vertebral subluxation model.  Early in the days of chiropractic DD Palmer stated that chiropractic resumes normal nervous flow (what he called "tone") to irritated nervous structures.  He firmly postulated that this flow could be "too much" or "too little".  Regardless of whether it is, the adjustment brings the condition back to homeostasis by influencing a complicated network of reflex arcs.  Spinal adjusting can very well cause harm, but not if the doctor uses the proper methods of locating subluxations and correcting them to the degree needed. Perhaps there is some feedback mechanism that reduces nerve output in order to restore homeostasis to the body. I have no evidence to support this theory but it is as rational IMO as the theory that maximum nerve transmission is ALWAYS beneficial to the body.

        Maximum nerve transmission is NOT always beneficial to the body. Regulated, homeostatic nerve flow IS!  DC’s never have sought to produce maxiumum nervous flow. Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???        If it convinces the patient that it is having a positive effect and the "disease" is cured through psychosomatic means, then yes, it is working for a serious illness. Not true. The illness may have improved by itself with no intervention. Sometimes this happens. We don’t know for sure why many people recover from serious illness despite lack of treatment.

        Because their body heals itself.  The body is more intelligent than most health care systems give it credit!  I am sure there are documented cases of prayer working to "cure disease".  Chiropractic has a much better defined anatomic and physiological basis than prayer, though, and stronger correlations from clinical trials and case studies. Actually it does NOT. Look at the studies for nonmusculoskeletal conditions (see review article) and see how strong the correlations are. They are simply not there as much as you would like to think that they are.

        According to one article, of course. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t think that chiropractic has stronger correlation from clinical trials than prayer for many human diseases.        You’re allowed to think whatever you want.  Medical treatments have about as much hope as a prayer, too, for some conditions.  You can’t do everything with any one system of health care. Another strawman argument. No one claimed that you could. But for other than musculosketal conditions name me one other disease where chiropractic has a BETTER result rate than conventional medicine. There are many cancers which are incurable. Can chiropractic do any better?? Where is the evidence?? Maybe for low back pain but for most diseases such as diabetes, hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism there is just not the evidence. It is just wishful thinking.        Not really.  It’s just a matter of clearly defining the criteria that are required for a condition to be helped chiropractically.  If these studies are produced and the conclusion is that chiropractic can’t help any of them, then you can say "wishful thinking," but until then…. No Stevie. You have it backwards. Surprise, surprise. You don’t _wait_ until studies are negative to say something is wishful thinking. Would you say that it is wishful thinking that standing on your head will cure all cancers?? Or will you say that it is not wishful thinking until you do a study that shows that standing on your head does not help?? You cannot be that stupid can you??:-))))

        Again with the insults.  I guess when you’re at the end of your rope you have to do something, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently. Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement.        Like what?  As I said, this can be said of any treatment, then, chiropractic, medical, etc. You are correct. Unless there are a number of well controlled studies that consistently show a relationship between the treatment and the effect in which case you cannot say it as convincingly . Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc. We have that 732 line review article that I posted to save everyone some time. If you disagree with their findings then give SPECIFIC reasons for such disagreement. Otherwise you are just whistling dixie. Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions.        And remember that this is one group of researcher’s opinions based on their own analyses…the quality of chiropractic research is higher than what they suggest, in my opinion. But what do you base this opinion on?? You are just a student in his first year. The

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Just last week I saw a study that chiropractors do the right adjustments about 47% of the time, wrong about 25% and indifferent the rest.  So there is good and bad mixed in.  (do a search on www.nando.net/nt/health) Better go to a doctor of osteopathic medicine. These guys really know what they do with manipulations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

We know the pharmacologic effects of aspirin and its anti clotting effects.    Last time I looked the exact mechanism, of aspirin remains a mystery.

And you claimed to be a chemistry major:-) Look again. Aspirin is an inhibitor of endogenous prostaglandin synthesis. Inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis results in interference with platelet aggregation which is the mechanism by which it is believed to prevent atherosclerosis. Now if you are going to say that we are not 100% sure about this then I don’t know what to say. What ARE we 100% sure of?? We may as well not discuss anything if you want to invoke that argument. But I could understand why you are invoking it. There is not much else you can argue.  I am not sure what you mean by _exact_?? If you want to get into semantic argument then one could say that we don’t know the exact mechanism of anything for sure. But I am not sure where we are going with this discussion. What was that you were saying about patients not being used as guinea pigs??? Controlled clinical studies have demonstrated fairly convincingly the prophyllactic effect against heart disease of taking aspirin.    But it still COULD be a coincidence.

Yes, Stevie. Anything is possible. Again I am not sure why you are making this argument since it could be applied to anything that we do. The question is _not_ whether it could be a coincidence. The question is what is the _likelihood_ of it being a coincidence. This is where clinical studies can be useful. If you are going to invoke the "anything is possible" argument then there is no point in continuing a discussion. But it does give some insight into how desperate you are in trying to make an argument for the efficacy of chiropractic. You can use the same argument for everything but there IS a difference between therapies which have been studied using good methodology and just anecdotes.    But you can’t be 100% sure that these aren’t just all coincidences, right?

You cannot be 100% sure of anything although your IQ not being above room temp is getting close.    Some things are obvious and don’t need testing, but in order to find out the possible percentage of patients that can be helped by chiropractic with a given "disease" then studies must be employed.

Yes some things are obvious and don’t need testing. Do you think that the theory that vertebral subluxation and nerve interference are the cause of human disease is one of these things that need no proof?? Who knows? At times the body may need the nerve flow to be less to avoid overstimulation and the spinal adjustment may actually cause harm. How do you know with any degree of certainty that it is ALWAYS good to open up the nerve flow from the spine to the organs even if it were true that adjustment DOES increase nerve transmission (another untested theory).  Perhaps there is some feedback mechanism that reduces nerve output in order to restore homeostasis to the body. I have no evidence to support this theory but it is as rational IMO as the theory that maximum nerve transmission is ALWAYS beneficial to the body. Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???    If it convinces the patient that it is having a positive effect and the "disease" is cured through psychosomatic means, then yes, it is working for a serious illness.

Not true. The illness may have improved by itself with no intervention. Sometimes this happens. We don’t know for sure why many people recover from serious illness despite lack of treatment.   I am sure there are documented cases of prayer working to "cure disease".  Chiropractic has a much better defined anatomic and physiological basis than prayer, though, and stronger correlations from clinical trials and case studies.

Actually it does NOT. Look at the studies for nonmusculoskeletal conditions (see review article) and see how strong the correlations are. They are simply not there as much as you would like to think that they are. I don’t think that chiropractic has stronger correlation from clinical trials than prayer for many human diseases.    You’re allowed to think whatever you want.  Medical treatments have about as much hope as a prayer, too, for some conditions.  You can’t do everything with any one system of health care.

Another strawman argument. No one claimed that you could. But for other than musculosketal conditions name me one other disease where chiropractic has a BETTER result rate than conventional medicine. There are many cancers which are incurable. Can chiropractic do any better?? Where is the evidence?? Maybe for low back pain but for most diseases such as diabetes, hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism there is just not the evidence. It is just wishful thinking.    Not really.  It’s just a matter of clearly defining the criteria that are required for a condition to be helped chiropractically.  If these studies are produced and the conclusion is that chiropractic can’t help any of them, then you can say "wishful thinking," but until then….

No Stevie. You have it backwards. Surprise, surprise. You don’t _wait_ until studies are negative to say something is wishful thinking. Would you say that it is wishful thinking that standing on your head will cure all cancers?? Or will you say that it is not wishful thinking until you do a study that shows that standing on your head does not help?? You cannot be that stupid can you??:-)))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently. Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement.    Like what?  As I said, this can be said of any treatment, then, chiropractic, medical, etc. You are correct. Unless there are a number of well controlled studies that consistently show a relationship between the treatment and the effect in which case you cannot say it as convincingly . Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc.

We have that 732 line review article that I posted to save everyone some time. If you disagree with their findings then give SPECIFIC reasons for such disagreement. Otherwise you are just whistling dixie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions.    And remember that this is one group of researcher’s opinions based on their own analyses…the quality of chiropractic research is higher than what they suggest, in my opinion. But what do you base this opinion on?? You are just a student in his first year. The authors were composed of PhD’s and had expertise in evaluating clinical studies. Why is your opinion valid and theirs not??    I never said theirs wasn’t valid.  What I said was that the group did their analysis and based an opinion on it.  Just because it makes it into a journal does not mean it is 100% correct.

You keep bringing up "100%" as some kind of baseline. Make your argument for _why_ their opinion is flawed and stop your whining.  You are not very convincing just saying 1) You disagree with their findings or 2) just because they published does  not make them correct or 3) just because they are DC’s does not mean they are not biased against chiropractic. To make a logical argument and have some credibility you need to do better than that.   I feel that the quality of chiropractic research is higher than they suggest.

I know that you do. However you have not given a _single_ valid reason for this belief or give any credible argument for why their conclusions are not valid.  They did a limited analysis of some various studies.  They by no means looked at every study that has been done.

I bet they looked at more studies than you have. If you read the article they did a very comprehensive review of the literature. If you think that there are studies that contradict their conclusions then post them. But just saying that they have not looked at _all_ the studies is again a very weak argument.  If you really want an idea of the magnitude of chiropractic I suggest contacting the Research Department at Palmer College where all of the old clinic histories are being put on computer.  There are really fascinating cases there and they will soon be availabel to anyone with a CD-ROM capability.

 I realize that you want so much for there to be validity to chiropractic being effective for general prevention of disease but these old case studies don’t do it.    And each one is solidly supported by medical opinion/diagnosis/evaluation methods.

Each one Stevie????? I must say you are a strong advocate for chiropractic. However you are a rigid one note ideologue with not much credible scientific evidence to support your claims. But I have to give you credit for trying. Better luck next occupation. Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not trying to start a war, though I’m sure this will fan some flames. I need some quotable information on research, studies, ect; on the efficacy(sp?) of chiropractic on the whole body (rather than just low back pain) I have been told that such information does not exist; that chiropractic has only been proven effective on low back pain.  Given the fact that I use chiropractic to ease the pain of headaches, carpal tunnel syndrom, and as overall preventive "medicine", I find this statement very hard to swallow. Thanks for your help Kyn        There are hundreds of published case studies showing efficacy for almost anything. Case studies are simply a starting point to see if there is a high likelihood of cause and effect relationship, nothing more. However some would like you to think that because there are hundreds or thousands of case studies that there is some validity to the claims. The problem with case studies, though, is that they are individual cases from which conclusions about efficacy cannot be derived.  If a few chiropractic adjustments manages to bring a patient’s glucose level from 450 to 180, that doesn’t necessarily mean that chiropractic will do the same in a patient with similar symptoms. It ALSO does not mean that the adjustment was the _cause_ of the lowering of the blood sugar in that single case.    There may have been other factors that have not been accounted for to explain the decrease in blood sugar. This is where science and controlled clinical studies can be of use.

        True.  But it shows a correlation that can be studied further. Other than anecdotal case studies is there ANY evidence that spinal adjustments has ANY effect on blood sugar in an insulin dependent diabetic???

        Not that I know of.  It’s simply one of many topics that need to be explored further.  I would think chiropractic will work in cases where the "diabetes" is being caused by neurological flow problems rather than inability to make or store insulin because of a lack of the necessary equipment! Notice that Steve has been asked this several times and has not answered it. And yet he seems to suggest that at least ONCE chiropractic alone HAS lowered ones blood sugar. And he accuses ME of lying. Remember we are talking cause and effect and not just coincidence.

        No…we’re talking about reasonable correlation, not coincidence. There is no harm in trying to manage a cse of diabetes chiropractically.  If the condition does not improve after a few adjustments (determined by close monitoring of blood glucose level), then a need to refer the case to an MD who can write a prescription is obviously in order.  Conventional wisdom says go for the safest, most conservative treatment first. On the other hand, DC’s have "treated" and controlled almost every disease process known (check out case studies, especially those that are being collected from the Palmer clinics). Again we do know have any credible evidence that it is chiropractic adjustments that _caused_ the improvement in any of these diseases.

        You could use the same argument for anything.  How do we KNOW that a surgery helped out a patient.  It could be conincidence in every case.  How do we know aspirin can be used as a blood thinning agent?  Maybe it’s just a matter of temporal coincidence.  Chiropractic has been shown to have measurable, repeatable effects in the physiology of the patient.  One notable paper shows the increase of endorphins immediately following chiropractic adjustments.  If the body can have an immediate reaction of this type, then it stands to reason that other reactions may and most likely are occurring as a direct result of adjusting procedures.  The key is getting the funds to study it on wider scales, which at this time is difficult. Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???

        If it convinces the patient that it is having a positive effect and the "disease" is cured through psychosomatic means, then yes, it is working for a serious illness.  I am sure there are documented cases of prayer working to "cure disease".  Chiropractic has a much better defined anatomic and physiological basis than prayer, though, and stronger correlations from clinical trials and case studies.  There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently. Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement.

        Like what?  As I said, this can be said of any treatment, then, chiropractic, medical, etc. Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc. Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions.

        And remember that this is one group of researcher’s opinions based on their own analyses…the quality of chiropractic research is higher than what they suggest, in my opinion. There are references and I would suggest checking out the primary sources to see how "good" these studies are. A study is only as good as the methodology used.

        True enough. Basically, anything mechanical where the joints are not articulating well can be treated chiropractically.  In my opinion, unless the disease process is acute and life-threatening, the rule of thumb should be chiropractic first, then drugs, then surgery. Is that your opinion?? Could you be somewhat biased given you are a chiro student??

        Of course it’s my opinion.  And obviously it’s biased, but it does make sense.  I know a guy I work with that had back problems and he went straight for surgery.  Passed up chiropractic, passed up muscle relaxants and pain killers, and went straight to the knife, against his doctors recommendations. He chronically reinjures it and is, at this time, laying in his bed unable to work for the last six months.  It makes sense to me to try the least invasive, most conservative approach first.  Chiropractic may not have th ebody of evidence to support it that medicine does, but the connection between the nervous system and homeostasis is well-documented, as is the evidence that chiropractic has an effect on this.  Therfore it is my opinion to try the conservative approach first, then turn to drugs and surgery as a last resort, unless there are factors that warrant immediate intervention of that nature. Let us see where chiropractic alone has been useful in treating insulin dependent diabetes, hyperthyoidism, hypothyroidism, Cushing’s Disease or any number of serious medical illnesses.

        As I stated, there are thousands of case studies showing this, and I wouldn’t discredit every one of them as a coincidence.  If you really want an idea of the magnitude of chiropractic I suggest contacting the Research Department at Palmer College where all of the old clinic histories are being put on computer.  There are really fascinating cases there and they will soon be availabel to anyone with a CD-ROM capability.  Why should chiropractors treat conditions when there is no credible evidence that it is effective??

        Because there is credible evidence that suggests a positive effect.  If the nervous system is responsible, then there is a possibility chiropractic can help. Why should we wait until someone’s diabetes, hyperthyroidism or Cushing’s Disease becomes life threatening before utilizing orthodox medical treatment for these conditions??

        I never said it should be waited until they are life-threatening.  The DC manages the case closely.  If no effect is seen with chiropractic care then conventional medical methods are used.  No one said it should be taken to thje point of irresponsibility. While I believe that it is every person’s right to choose whatever treatment they want and if they want to go to a chiropractor instead of an MD to treat diabetes  then more power to them. And if a chiropractor claims that his/her treatment can control diabetes independent from an MD and the patient dies as a result of not having conventional treatment  then I think that the chiropractor should be held liable for fraud.

        As thet very well should be.  If the case progresses that far without a referral for conventional medical treatment then the professional in question has shown himself to be, if nothing else, a complete idiot!  A responsible DC will show the patient the possible effects of the chiropractic treatment and what he hopes to acheive with this.  The condition is monitored very closely (in the case of diabetes I mentioned originally the DC, along with an MD, monitored blood glucose levels every two days) and if no improvement is noticed in a reasonable amount of time, the case is referred out.  It takes responsibility, plain and simple. Then you will see the number of defaults in chiro student loans go even higher.

        Why?  I don’t see a correlation here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Unfirtunately at this time there is no 100% assurance that chiropractic, or any other clinical health care, will have the same effect in everyone who undergoes that treatment. No one is talking 100% Stevie. But as you have said in previous post sometimes we

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Response:

It ALSO does not mean that the adjustment was the _cause_ of the lowering of the blood sugar in that single case.    There may have been other factors that have not been accounted for to explain the decrease in blood sugar. This is where science and controlled clinical studies can be of use.    True.  But it shows a correlation that can be studied further.

I am all for studying it but we must remember that correlation does not imply causation.    No…we’re talking about reasonable correlation, not coincidence. There is no harm in trying to manage a cse of diabetes chiropractically.

Perhaps there is harm in trying to manage diabetes chiropractically especially if an MD is not first consulted and the patient evaluated by an MD.    Some diabetics need insulin to prevent very serious complications from the diabetes such as hyperosmolar coma secondary to markedly elevated blood glucose. Are chiropractors trained to evaluate the risk for developing severe complications?? These complications can occur rather rapidly in "brittle diabetics" and it is nothing to play around with. Patients are not guinea pigs to try adjustments to see what happens unless it is part of a clinical study. Hopefully if chiropractors adjust diabetics that they inform them that there is no scientific evidence for efficacy and at best there are anecdotes and an untested theory (vertebral subluxation as cause of some diabetes).   If the condition does not improve after a few adjustments (determined by close monitoring of blood glucose level), then a need to refer the case to an MD who can write a prescription is obviously in order.  Conventional wisdom says go for the safest, most conservative treatment first.

Fine. Then why not just have them pray and see if that works. Where is the evidence that chiropractic adjustment works better than prayer for diabetes?? On the other hand, DC’s have "treated" and controlled almost every disease process known (check out case studies, especially those that are being collected from the Palmer clinics). Again we do know have any credible evidence that it is chiropractic adjustments that _caused_ the improvement in any of these diseases.    You could use the same argument for anything.  How do we KNOW that a surgery helped out a patient.  It could be conincidence in every case.  How do we know aspirin can be used as a blood thinning agent?

We know the pharmacologic effects of aspirin and its anti clotting effects. Controlled clinical studies have demonstrated fairly convincingly the prophyllactic effect against heart disease of taking aspirin. You can use the same argument for everything but there IS a difference between therapies which have been studied using good methodology and just anecdotes.  Maybe it’s just a matter of temporal coincidence.  Chiropractic has been shown to have measurable, repeatable effects in the physiology of the patient.

What measureable effects are you referring to??  One notable paper shows the increase of endorphins immediately following chiropractic adjustments.  If the body can have an immediate reaction of this type, then it stands to reason that other reactions may and most likely are occurring as a direct result of adjusting procedures.

Sure anything is possible. But to firmly believe something as if it were gospel (like the sky is blue) based upon maybe it being true is rather presumptuous.  The key is getting the funds to study it on wider scales, which at this time is difficult.

I am glad to see that you are seeing the value of studies and not just saying that "some things are obvious and need no testing". Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???    If it convinces the patient that it is having a positive effect and the "disease" is cured through psychosomatic means, then yes, it is working for a serious illness.  I am sure there are documented cases of prayer working to "cure disease".  Chiropractic has a much better defined anatomic and physiological basis than prayer, though, and stronger correlations from clinical trials and case studies.

I don’t think that chiropractic has stronger correlation from clinical trials than prayer for many human diseases. Maybe for low back pain but for most diseases such as diabetes, hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism there is just not the evidence. It is just wishful thinking.  There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently. Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement.    Like what?  As I said, this can be said of any treatment, then, chiropractic, medical, etc.

You are correct. Unless there are a number of well controlled studies that consistently show a relationship between the treatment and the effect in which case you cannot say it as convincingly . Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc. Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions.    And remember that this is one group of researcher’s opinions based on their own analyses…the quality of chiropractic research is higher than what they suggest, in my opinion.

But what do you base this opinion on?? You are just a student in his first year. The authors were composed of PhD’s and had expertise in evaluating clinical studies. Why is your opinion valid and theirs not?? Did you carefully look at these studies for methodology?? If not then your opinion is simply that, an opinion.  And it carries little weight. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -There are references and I would suggest checking out the primary sources to see how "good" these studies are. A study is only as good as the methodology used.    True enough. Let us see where chiropractic alone has been useful in treating insulin dependent diabetes, hyperthyoidism, hypothyroidism, Cushing’s Disease or any number of serious medical illnesses.    As I stated, there are thousands of case studies showing this, and I wouldn’t discredit every one of them as a coincidence.

And there are thousands of reports that prayer has worked. There is really no difference.   If you really want an idea of the magnitude of chiropractic I suggest contacting the Research Department at Palmer College where all of the old clinic histories are being put on computer.  There are really fascinating cases there and they will soon be availabel to anyone with a CD-ROM capability.

Are these the ones from the 1930’s-40’s?? Why did it take so long to compile the results of this research??  Aloha, Rich Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address  before sending me email

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not trying to start a war, though I’m sure this will fan some flames. I need some quotable information on research, studies, ect; on the efficacy(sp?) of chiropractic on the whole body (rather than just low back pain) I have been told that such information does not exist; that chiropractic has only been proven effective on low back pain.  Given the fact that I use chiropractic to ease the pain of headaches, carpal tunnel syndrom, and as overall preventive "medicine", I find this statement very hard to swallow. Thanks for your help Kyn    There are hundreds of published case studies showing efficacy for almost anything.

Case studies are simply a starting point to see if there is a high likelihood of cause and effect relationship, nothing more. However some would like you to think that because there are hundreds or thousands of case studies that there is some validity to the claims.  The problem with case studies, though, is that they are individual cases from which conclusions about efficacy cannot be derived.  If a few chiropractic adjustments manages to bring a patient’s glucose level from 450 to 180, that doesn’t necessarily mean that chiropractic will do the same in a patient with similar symptoms.

It ALSO does not mean that the adjustment was the _cause_ of the lowering of the blood sugar in that single case.    There may have been other factors that have not been accounted for to explain the decrease in blood sugar. This is where science and controlled clinical studies can be of use. Other than anecdotal case studies is there ANY evidence that spinal adjustments has ANY effect on blood sugar in an insulin dependent diabetic??? Notice that Steve has been asked this several times and has not answered it. And yet he seems to suggest that at least ONCE chiropractic alone HAS lowered ones blood sugar. And he accuses ME of lying. Remember we are talking cause and effect and not just coincidence.  On the other hand, DC’s have "treated" and controlled almost every disease process known (check out case studies, especially those that are being collected from the Palmer clinics).

Again we do know have any credible evidence that it is chiropractic adjustments that _caused_ the improvement in any of these diseases. Just because there is some temporal relationship between the treatment and the improvement does not imply cause and effect. Prayer has "treated" and controlled almost every disease known also. Does this mean that it actually works for a serious illness???   There isn’t a lot of consistency because everyone’s bodies work differently.

Maybe also because there is no cause and effect and that there are other factors accounting for the improvement. Chiropractic has been shown in a number of good studies (find them at any MEDLINE search page, such as www.medscape.com—-sorry I can’t give you exact journal studies at this moment) to be very effective for CTS, headaches, etc.

Look at my review article written by DC’s for a more accurate assessment of the state of research in chiropractic in nonmusculoskeletal conditions. There are references and I would suggest checking out the primary sources to see how "good" these studies are. A study is only as good as the methodology used. Basically, anything mechanical where the joints are not articulating well can be treated chiropractically.  In my opinion, unless the disease process is acute and life-threatening, the rule of thumb should be chiropractic first, then drugs, then surgery.

Is that your opinion?? Could you be somewhat biased given you are a chiro student??  Let us see where chiropractic alone has been useful in treating insulin dependent diabetes, hyperthyoidism, hypothyroidism, Cushing’s Disease or any number of serious medical illnesses.   Why should chiropractors treat conditions when there is no credible evidence that it is effective??  Why should we wait until someone’s diabetes, hyperthyroidism or Cushing’s Disease becomes life threatening before utilizing orthodox medical treatment for these conditions??  While I believe that it is every person’s right to choose whatever treatment they want and if they want to go to a chiropractor instead of an MD to treat diabetes  then more power to them. And if a chiropractor claims that his/her treatment can control diabetes independent from an MD and the patient dies as a result of not having conventional treatment  then I think that the chiropractor should be held liable for fraud. Then you will see the number of defaults in chiro student loans go even higher.   Unfirtunately at this time there is no 100% assurance that chiropractic, or any other clinical health care, will have the same effect in everyone who undergoes that treatment.

No one is talking 100% Stevie. But as you have said in previous post sometimes we play a numbers game (you were talking about decision to have vaccination).  You need to evaluate the likelihood of improvement and weigh the benefits and risks. There is no question that many medical treatments have risk and certainly people should be given informed consent. But just because a treatment is "kinder and gentler" does not mean it will work. Controlled clinical studies can help us determine with some reliability whether a treatment really does work.  Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –                         BENEFITS AND RISKS OF SPINAL MANIPULATION                  Paul G. Shekelle, PhD; Reed B. Phillips, DC, PhD;                  Daniel C. Cherkin, PhD; William C. Meeker, DC 2. Nonmusculoskeletal Conditions Based on personal experience, some chiropractors believe that manipulation can beneficially influence the body

Question:

Dear Susan, I should be more cautious analyzing someones treatment on the ‘net but I was struck by the "kitchen sink" approach being taken to control your symptoms. I would suggest that the most appropriate way to acheive control of asthma is a high dose of inhaled steroids with a quick reliever available for breakthrough episodes of wheezing.  Aerobid is a relatively weak inhaled steroid as compared to Pulmicort or Flovent, now available in the U.S.  Maxair is a reasonable quick relief medicine.  Beconase and Clariten could be helpful for the post-nasal drip. In terms of analyzing your response to the present regimen, I note that the effect of Serevent and Singulair should be evident on the first day of use.  If it hasn’t happened by now, it isn’t going to happen. Good luck, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am trying to get my asthma under control.  A recent PFT showed classic asthma with good response to bronchodilators.  A PFT 5 years ago had been much less clear, and so I was sent off with minimal meds.  I gave up for a while, when the meds didn’t work, but have been recently motivated  (I ruptured a surgical repair coughing).  Pulmonologist now believes I need I am to call the doc this Fri/Mon to report on progress.  If he  suggests switching, should  I resist?  How long can it take Singulair and Serverent to kick in when one is not under control? Thanks. Susan — Susan LeBailly Northwestern University

Response:

I have felt generally a little better, but today was not good and I’m disappointed.  Had to use Maxair twice, and really should have once more. I’ve gotten up half the nights coughing (but that IS a decrease). I do think that increased post nasal drip is confounding things.  But how fast does singulair work?  I’ve read posts from others who seem to have quick response with singulair, but I think they may have been under control before initiating singulair.

Singulair (like most other ‘long term control’ medications) can take up to several weeks to show results.  If you need to get your asthma under control quickly you should ask your doctor about taking a prednisone burst (which may or may not be a good idea depending on what type of surgery you had).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dear Susan, I should be more cautious analyzing someones treatment on the ‘net but I was struck by the "kitchen sink" approach being taken to control your symptoms. I would suggest that the most appropriate way to acheive control of asthma is a high dose of inhaled steroids with a quick reliever available for breakthrough episodes of wheezing.  Aerobid is a relatively weak inhaled steroid as compared to Pulmicort or Flovent, now available in the U.S.  Maxair is a reasonable quick relief medicine.  Beconase and Clariten could be helpful for the post-nasal drip. In terms of analyzing your response to the present regimen, I note that the effect of Serevent and Singulair should be evident on the

Everything else I have read on the NG suggests that i) not everyone responds to Singulair and ii) it isn’t immediate!  I have no idea what kind of drug Serevent is, but if it’s a steroid inhaler that too is not immediate except for a lucky few like myself, where I define immediate as within a couple of days. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -first day of use.  If it hasn’t happened by now, it isn’t going to happen. Good luck, I am trying to get my asthma under control.  A recent PFT showed classic asthma with good response to bronchodilators.  A PFT 5 years ago had been much less clear, and so I was sent off with minimal meds.  I gave up for a while, when the meds didn’t work, but have been recently motivated  (I ruptured a surgical repair coughing).  Pulmonologist now believes I need I am to call the doc this Fri/Mon to report on progress.  If he  suggests switching, should  I resist?  How long can it take Singulair and Serverent to kick in when one is not under control? Thanks. Susan — Susan LeBailly Northwestern University

– Surfer! http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk http://www.nevis-vieww.demon.co.uk/flash Hopeful anti-spam: alter double ‘w’ to single ‘w’ to view site & send Email.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am trying to get my asthma under control.  A recent PFT showed classic asthma with good response to bronchodilators.  A PFT 5 years ago had been much less clear, and so I was sent off with minimal meds.  I gave up for a while, when the meds didn’t work, but have been recently motivated  (I ruptured a surgical repair coughing).  Pulmonologist now believes I need more agressive treatment.  Beginning last Friday, I am using Singulair, Serverent (2 puffs 2x day), and continuing with the Intal and Aerobid I had been using, and using the Maxair as rescue. After I’m under control, we will figure out what to drop. Am also using Beconase and Claritin for nasal symptoms.  I am really hoping this will work, hopefully quickly, as I don’t want to rupture these stitches. I have felt generally a little better, but today was not good and I’m disappointed.  Had to use Maxair twice, and really should have once more. I’ve gotten up half the nights coughing (but that IS a decrease). I do think that increased post nasal drip is confounding things.  But how fast does singulair work?  I’ve read posts from others who seem to have quick response with singulair, but I think they may have been under control before initiating singulair. I am to call the doc this Fri/Mon to report on progress.  If he  suggests switching, should  I resist?  How long can it take Singulair and Serverent to kick in when one is not under control?

The typical treatment for asthma exacerbations, say in the Yellow zone on your Peak flow meter (50-80%), is to double the dose of inhaled steroids, Aerobid in your case, and use bronchodilators as needed. Checking the Expert Panel Report 2, Fig 3-5b; a Low Dose of Aerobid (flunisolide) is 2-4 pf/day, Medium Dose is 4-8 pf/day, and High Dose is 8 pf/day. High dose inhaled steroids should bring your asthma under control within a few days; if not a pulse dose of prednisone may be indicated. However their are newer more effective steroid inhalers with fewer side effects than Aerobid; ask about Pulmicort Turbuhaler or Flovent 220. The Serevent long-acting bronchodilator will probably help; the Singulair may help but isn’t really indicated for asthma exacerbations. Its better to try it once you have stabilized your asthma. In my case, I was able to cut back on inhaled steroids once I started Singulair; but that was starting with the asthma already controlled. I could tell it was helping within the first few hours. It may take several weeks to experience the complete effect. Singulair can also help the stuffy nose (rhinitis) Complete PI at www.singulair.com Intal is a pretty weak drug; would be a candidate to drop. And if Singulair doesn’t work (it helps about 2/3 of asthmatics) Is it possible you have sinusitis? you mentioned post nasal drip. Sinusitis can cause asthma. A saline wash can help. How about a decongestant; or Atrovent nasal spray to dry up secretions. You might benefit from a referral to an allergist or/and ENT. For allergic asthma, I personally prefer an allergist to a pulmonologist; tho either can be a good asthma doctor if they have the training or background. Ellis

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Susan, I should be more cautious analyzing someones treatment on the ‘net but I was struck by the "kitchen sink" approach being taken to control your symptoms. I would suggest that the most appropriate way to acheive control of asthma is a high dose of inhaled steroids with a quick reliever available for breakthrough episodes of wheezing.  Aerobid is a relatively weak inhaled steroid as compared to Pulmicort or Flovent, now available in the U.S.  Maxair is a reasonable quick relief medicine.  Beconase and Clariten could be helpful for the post-nasal drip. In terms of analyzing your response to the present regimen, I note that the effect of Serevent and Singulair should be evident on the first day of use.  If it hasn’t happened by now, it isn’t going to Everything else I have read on the NG suggests that i) not everyone responds to Singulair and ii) it isn’t immediate!  I have no idea what kind of drug Serevent is, but if it’s a steroid inhaler that too is not immediate except for a lucky few like myself, where I define immediate as within a couple of days. Surfer!

Surfer, Serevent is salmeterol, a long-acting bronchodilator taken 2 pf twice a day, which is also the maximum dose. It shouldn’t be used for rescue as it takes around 30 minutes to take effect. Serevent can be used for exercise-induced asthma, if taken 30 minutes in advance; and if the maximum dose of 2 pf per 12 hours is not exceeded. A good reference on drugs like Serevent and Intal is the drug FAQ for alt.support.asthma at ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/medicine/asthma/medications http://www.faqs.org/faqs/medicine/allergy/medications/ alt.support.asthma Allergy Meds And the main FAQ at http://www.radix.net/~mwg/asthma-gen.html  alt.support.asthma FAQ And since you are in the UK here’s a British link with drug info: http://www.bmj.com/asthma/ast01.htm Evidence Based Clinical Practice Guideline   The primary care management of asthma in adults North of England Evidence Based Guideline Development Project Centre for Health Services Research University of Newcastle upon Tyne Regarding the Singulair, my doctor suggested I purchase a 7-day supply to try it, then if it worked he would write a justification for my medical plan to cover it; it worked the first day for me. Inhaled steroids cut in half and peak flows increased. Ellis

Response:

I am trying to get my asthma under control.  A recent PFT showed classic asthma with good response to bronchodilators.  A PFT 5 years ago had been much less clear, and so I was sent off with minimal meds.  I gave up for a while, when the meds didn’t work, but have been recently motivated  (I ruptured a surgical repair coughing).  Pulmonologist now believes I need more agressive treatment.  Beginning last Friday, I am using Singulair, Serverent (2 puffs 2x day), and continuing with the Intal and Aerobid I had been using, and using the Maxair as rescue. After I’m under control, we will figure out what to drop. Am also using Beconase and Claritin for nasal symptoms.  I am really hoping this will work, hopefully quickly, as I don’t want to rupture these stitches. I have felt generally a little better, but today was not good and I’m disappointed.  Had to use Maxair twice, and really should have once more. I’ve gotten up half the nights coughing (but that IS a decrease). I do think that increased post nasal drip is confounding things.  But how fast does singulair work?  I’ve read posts from others who seem to have quick response with singulair, but I think they may have been under control before initiating singulair.   I am to call the doc this Fri/Mon to report on progress.  If he  suggests switching, should  I resist?  How long can it take Singulair and Serverent to kick in when one is not under control? Thanks. Susan — Susan LeBailly Northwestern University

Response:

Question:

Does anyone know what the British and/or Irish trade name of common asthma drugs are;  Does anyone know which of these are safe for use during pregnancy.

Response:

Does anyone know what the British and/or Irish trade name of common asthma drugs are;  Does anyone know which of these are safe for use during pregnancy.

Here are some links that may be useful: http://www.lung.ca/asthma/pregnancy/pregnant.html http://www.theberries.ns.ca/Archives/astpreg.html http://hna.ffh.vic.gov.au/asthma/amh/pis/amhpa.html http://www.adis-usa.com/files/DrugsTherapyPerspectives/d000641pr.html http://fido.nhlbi.nih.gov:70/1/nhlbi/health/lung/asthma/prof/apa http://www.allergy.or.kr/mirror/aaai/tip17.html http://www.radix.net/~mwg/asthma-gen.html ‘Reply to’ address changed to foil email spammers.

Response:

Does anyone know what the British and/or Irish trade name of common asthma drugs are;  Does anyone know which of these are safe for use during pregnancy.

Here is a British link to: The primary care management of asthma in adults http://www.bmj.com/bmj/asthma/ast01.htm The commonest short-acting bronchodilator inhaler, albuterol in the US & called salbutamol in the rest of the world, is sold as Ventolin (Allen & Hanbury, a US division of Glaxo of UK) or Proventil (Schering, US under license to Glaxo). The oldest steroid inhaler, beclomethasone, is generally considered the safest one in pregnancy. It is sold as Beclovent (Allen & Hanbury US division of Glaxo of UK) or Vanceril (Schering, US under license to Glaxo). The long-acting bronchodilator salmeterol, (Serevent), is manufactured by Allen & Hanbury, US division of Glaxo. There have been reports of fetal abnormalities in this newsgroup. A safer drug is sustained-release theophylline in low dose. The mild bronchodilator Intal (called cromolyn in US, sodium cromoglycate elsewhere) is manufactured by Fison’s of UK. It is considered safe in pregnancy. More links: alt.support.asthma FAQ: Asthma Medications (US & Worldwide) http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/medicine/asthma/me… http://www.radix.net/~mwg/asthma-gen.html alt.support.asthma FAQ: Asthma — General Information see section on pregnancy Ellis

Response:

Sorry, I don’t know the brandnames for the more common asthma medications. Look for the scientific (generic) names, to find equivalent medications. Most asthma drugs have not been tested for their effects on pregnant moms and their babies (I doubt that there are many volunteers for this type of research!). Check out this excellent page for more information on asthma and pregnancy – http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/Medicine/Allergy/Asthma/asthws2.html John Rhoades, RRT Asthma Guide for the Mining Company http://asthma.miningco.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone know what the British and/or Irish trade name of common asthma drugs are;  Does anyone know which of these are safe for use during pregnancy.

Response:

Question:

If poor air quality is a significant cause of depression most of us would not be here today.  Our parents would have had no desire to have sex.  The Pittsburgh area would have the largest concentrations of mental hospitals in the world.  There would be no work there because everyone would be too depressed to work.  The only sane people would be those living in the Great Plains. You need to get off this clean air kick.  It has virtually nothing to do with your mental health.

Gnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Miss Anna from the country-side with PAD-OCD-PTSD.

Response:

mcs wrote to Rich: I am looking to start a moving business ( lol) but if you really want to get off that meds stuff, email me. No where in Rich’s post does he say that he wants to get off the meds. Rich seems to have anxiety and depression in a very bad way.  The drug Klonopin is excellent for his anxiety, and Prozac helps with his depression.  The other 2 drugs, Risperdal and (?) are not familiar to me, but if it helps him, thats good.  There are a few

a few? Holistic support groups would do better then drug support groups. The people I know alive and well have consistently followed a few general rules that are universal. . The problem is many people with anxiety haven’t tried long enough. They want fast answers. The things that often seem initally best for anxiety , like smoking and drugs, might  actually delay or forego long range better substative change. Anyway,Look I am trying to provide alternatives, and I sincerely believe people who can try will feel better or I wouldnt suggest and I have to believe people won’t follow advice blindly without a feeling I might be right or their way is failing. This is not a conspiracy to get people into a worse state. You have free choices and I am providing just one alternative to drugs, and its just advice. Again realize this is a billion dollar industry so I don’t expect for people who are dependent on this stuff to get off this belief system  lightly and I certainly don’t know who is real and who might be a drug promoter. All I can say is I have been to the drug store and to the now better place and its not even close. The fact of the matter is many therapists use alternative , or cognitive approaches and so just because its hereditary doesnt mean the same things that help people for other reasons with anxiety won’t help those like you.Chemical inbalance alright, is the buzz phrase of the century, except dont you know? You can change the chemical mix for the better and permantely if you have an open mind maybe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – manage their depression and anxiety without drugs, but most can’t. Especially if its a chemical imbalance due to a genetic flaw or whatever.  I don’t understand this mentality that drugs are not good for our condition.  Ativan surely helps me.  Without it, I would be very anxious, and in certain situations, I would get a panic attack.  Ativan, to me, is a miracle drug.  I am sure that Rich is being helped in the same way.  Why do you want to give him ideas to get off the meds?  Would you tell a diabetic to get off their drugs?  How about Parkinson’s disease?  Or painful Arthritis?  Depression, anxiety, and panic is just as valid as these diseases, but you and some others in this group seem to think that this condition we have is ‘all in our minds’.  And that we should just snap out of it.  And just take a walk and breathe in fresh air.  Sorry, but the meds help the most. I foolish went into the group "methods of suicide", and foolishly told potential suicide victims that its wrong to kill themselves, and that they should live to the fullest because its a short life anyway. Of course, I was called a troll, and they told me to get out of the group because they all wanted to die, and I had no business being in there.  I took the hint quickly, and left and never returned.  In some ways, you (mcs) and a few others are doing the same thing in this group.  WE need support, and info about meds.  WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE.  The drugs come first, and then the good food and the exercise and all thats good for us in general.  Even chocolate..lol.  Do you understand what I am saying to you mcs?  I think your name is Steve, right?  Nevertheless, all forms of opinion is healthy and good, and your input is good, but not correct in my opinion. And whats that saying…"every azzhole has an opinion".  LOL Art Decco…nyc, usa Hey Art,      We’re almost neighbors. Me being in Ct and you being NYC Drop me an email sometime, if you want to that is.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The support of your wife is a valuable thing for you, having someone who loves and helps you can help overcome anything.. sadly my boyfriend is unsupportive, and only adds to my anxiety, for example,if we are in a car going somewhere and I feel nervous, and i tell him can we stop as I feel nervous, he’ll punch the car, or put his foot on the accelarator, or jump a redlight,or do something crazy, he behaves similarly weird if I criticize him, or express my fears or ill feeling at home. But I cant kick him out because Im more afraid of being alone, I feel like I am dying when alone, even for a few hours because I have bad stomach problems,so I need a company to distract me from my physical pains..actually he doesnt even distract me..he just ignores me when we’re together, or insults me or yells at me,or harrasses me into sleeping with him.when I dont want to, then insults me afterwards, but even this is better than what would happen if I was left alone permanently, I have fits, which can be life threatenening, and have seen someone I knew die of a similar condition.. so I have reason to be scared, and stay in this miserable situation.(and no,i have no friends or family who would help me) So you see, consider yourself lucky to have this valuable asset, and tell her ever day how much she means to you.. and show her.. you haveevery chance of overcoming this. PHM Thank you for replying to my post. Your current situation sounds like what I was going through with my parents. Man that has to be tough. Not only do you have to deal with the anxiety,panic, depression, but you have to put up with a boyfriend who’s abusive. You deserve better than that. Are you absolutely sure you cant handle being alone. Man sounds like he just adds to your anxiety and panic. Your bf is selfish and mean. Do you use any instant messengers, yahoo, msn, etc..maybe can connect via those….of course you can email me anytime take care.. rich Well, Of course I could throw him out, but then I’d be isolated, alone most of the time, with no one to drive me anywhere, and if I have a fit, as I did last night I might never wake up from it.. Having said that, he’s unsympathetic to my physical health issues as well,and just insults me when I do have a fit, or a vomiting attack.. but I think If I lost consciousness he’d call an ambulance,and thats something I fear I could be incapacitated from doing myself.he can be nice sometimes..just not very often,and at least he dont beat me up,like my previous ex…. . and I can’tlive with other people, since loud music/noise et makes me more irritated and anxious,and in England private landlords(and most public ones) wont let my dog live with me, and I couldnt bear to be without her.. shes wthe most important(and caring!) person in my life. PHM

Would you consider emailing me directly

Response:

Hi Rich, Sorry to hear about your battle with depression and anxiety. I’ve been battling them now two since 1989, along with PTSD. So I really do understand what you are going through. Don’t feel like you are alone. There are lots of nice people here to be supportive to you and to help you with things that come up. It’s a nice group here. I also run a mailing list for those suffering from any form of mental illness, called The Moon List. I only mention that in case you might be interested in a mailing list that deals with a lot of the same things that you deal with everyday. Anyhow, welcome to you. I usually post here every once in a while. But I can always be reached through my web site. — Take care, Mickey Maschke The Moon List – http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ My Personal Site: http://windgate.info The mind is like a book. Opened and much is learned, closed and nothing is learned.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – mcs wrote to Rich: I am looking to start a moving business ( lol) but if you really want to get off that meds stuff, email me. No where in Rich’s post does he say that he wants to get off the meds. Rich seems to have anxiety and depression in a very bad way.  The drug Klonopin is excellent for his anxiety, and Prozac helps with his depression.  The other 2 drugs, Risperdal and (?) are not familiar to me, but if it helps him, thats good.  There are a few people who can manage their depression and anxiety without drugs, but most can’t. Especially if its a chemical imbalance due to a genetic flaw or whatever.  I don’t understand this mentality that drugs are not good for our condition.  Ativan surely helps me.  Without it, I would be very anxious, and in certain situations, I would get a panic attack.  Ativan, to me, is a miracle drug.  I am sure that Rich is being helped in the same way.  Why do you want to give him ideas to get off the meds?  Would you tell a diabetic to get off their drugs?  How about Parkinson’s disease?  Or painful Arthritis?  Depression, anxiety, and panic is just as valid as these diseases, but you and some others in this group seem to think that this condition we have is ‘all in our minds’.  And that we should just snap out of it.  And just take a walk and breathe in fresh air.  Sorry, but the meds help the most.   I foolish went into the group "methods of suicide", and foolishly told potential suicide victims that its wrong to kill themselves, and that they should live to the fullest because its a short life anyway. Of course, I was called a troll, and they told me to get out of the group because they all wanted to die, and I had no business being in there.  I took the hint quickly, and left and never returned.  In some ways, you (mcs) and a few others are doing the same thing in this group.  WE need support, and info about meds.  WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE.  The drugs come first, and then the good food and the exercise and all thats good for us in general.  Even chocolate..lol.  Do you understand what I am saying to you mcs?  I think your name is Steve, right?  Nevertheless, all forms of opinion is healthy and good, and your input is good, but not correct in my opinion. And whats that saying…"every azzhole has an opinion".  LOL   Art Decco…nyc, usa

Hey Art,      We’re almost neighbors. Me being in Ct and you being NYC Drop me an email sometime, if you want to that is.

Response:

I said pollution is a major cause of illness , and  misery and to global warming , so if everything is connected its not at all hard to associate Anxiety and panic to those correlations. Shallow fast breathing and lack of oxygen promotes jittery reaction in brain. People cannot think  or act good then one might assume if the goal for deep breathing is to get more oxygen to the brain and if the air is not clean then its impossible to get the benefits of relaxation . Thus the new evidence that suggests exercising in bad air is actually more harmful then if you never exercised at all on those days. Its really not that hard to take it a few steps further . Clean air is one of the most important things Any sane person can do for their family. Smart corporations incorporate the best Hvac systems for their buildings because they know the better quality of the air inside their buildings the more productive the people inside might be. There are those that know, and those that don’t know, its as simple as that and everything is connected. I complain because I have to live in this muck. When I am in clean air I do much better. However its not really that important to know why I stay in this, its more important for heads of families in these cities to leave and get the USA in better health. Forget the correlation of proving the exact deteroriation of mental conditions to pollution ,for  its not going to happen in our lifetime , because if we know now of the correlations with lung diseases and health in general and still many news organization don’t tell the people, then its going to be a long time before the mental associations will be proven.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If poor air quality is a significant cause of depression most of us would not be here today.  Our parents would have had no desire to have sex.  The Pittsburgh area would have the largest concentrations of mental hospitals in the world.  There would be no work there because everyone would be too depressed to work.  The only sane people would be those living in the Great Plains. You need to get off this clean air kick.  It has virtually nothing to do with your mental health. WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE. I agree. For what it’s worth I have lived in many places where "fresh air" was plentiful. I am very healthy according to my doctor and can still outwork three men half my age. I eat good food, I sleep well, and the air here is clean, yet I would be in very bad shape without the "meds" that you so often say we don’t need. So the question is: WHY?  - K Why? You want to know why? I have known many people in my life and most have acute symptoms from different variations of stress or depression. or physical condition or now ASTHMA . I can tell you Doctors are swamped in many cities because bad air does spell many illnesses , not only asthma but even people who get asthma as adults don’t see how the air where they live affect their health.In my city every other commercial is for allergy or asthma or depression or anxiety pills. So don’t tell me you and everyone else is doing everything right. Our news media ignore the obvious and instead of telling you the air is so bad its dangerous , they say its beautiful and hot . . Now when I add it all up, most people who take meds that I know, are not in great shape and smoking and stress go together like milk and honey. I personally don’t care, if your set in your ways of taking meds. I know there is a correlation between doing healthy things and feeling better from a myriad of conditions. My belief is that anxiety IS most definitely one of the conditions that can be sucessfully treated without major meds. There can be studies had, to prove that the quality of air and environment including type of family care , and diet most definitely can influence the outcome for people with anxiety but Like I said before, all too often , people would rather think there is a magic bullet instead and those studies will never come because pharmacy companies won’t make a profit from clean air. Proper breathing exercises and exercise and good food and good air , would put I believe most people into a better spiritual and physical existence but there is too much riding on drugs and keeping people from the pollution forecast to think these studies will be around soon. Pardon me if I just want to show the correlations for people who wish to believe. There is a cook on puble tv, Christine , who was diagnosed with Cancer and then really went about to change her lifestyle and what she ate. She nows enjoys great health, her beauty radiates and I am sure she is giving it back by helping people appreciate the hundreds of veggies most people will never see in their lifetime. I run in the parks and can tell you many people don’t in many cities because the air is too stifling to breathe. So I don’t buy thare are too many people in some cities that are doing great period , mentally or physically because of the way our society ignores the obvious.  but pharmacy companies are not going to make that correlation clear and our politicians would rather see dead people before they implement diesel free buses. The whole freaking US has conspiracies in my mind, from stocks and inside trading to people not being told how to maximize their life to horrible music ( yes conspiracy) on fm radio. So call me alternative or paranoid or whateve, I tried to make a difference. The message is out there for people not to make the same mistakes as I did.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The support of your wife is a valuable thing for you, having someone who loves and helps you can help overcome anything.. sadly my boyfriend is unsupportive, and only adds to my anxiety, for example,if we are in a car going somewhere and I feel nervous, and i tell him can we stop as I feel nervous, he’ll punch the car, or put his foot on the accelarator, or jump a redlight,or do something crazy, he behaves similarly weird if I criticize him, or express my fears or ill feeling at home. But I cant kick him out because Im more afraid of being alone, I feel like I am dying when alone, even for a few hours because I have bad stomach problems,so I need a company to distract me from my physical pains..actually he doesnt even distract me..he just ignores me when we’re together, or insults me or yells at me,or harrasses me into sleeping with him.when I dont want to, then insults me afterwards, but even this is better than what would happen if I was left alone permanently, I have fits, which can be life threatenening, and have seen someone I knew die of a similar condition.. so I have reason to be scared, and stay in this miserable situation.(and no,i have no friends or family who would help me) So you see, consider yourself lucky to have this valuable asset, and tell her ever day how much she means to you.. and show her.. you haveevery chance of overcoming this. PHM Thank you for replying to my post. Your current situation sounds like what I was going through with my parents. Man that has to be tough. Not only do you have to deal with the anxiety,panic, depression, but you have to put up with a boyfriend who’s abusive. You deserve better than that. Are you absolutely sure you cant handle being alone. Man sounds like he just adds to your anxiety and panic. Your bf is selfish and mean. Do you use any instant messengers, yahoo, msn, etc..maybe can connect via those….of course you can email me anytime take care.. rich

Well, Of course I could throw him out, but then I’d be isolated, alone most of the time, with no one to drive me anywhere, and if I have a fit, as I did last night I might never wake up from it.. Having said that, he’s unsympathetic to my physical health issues as well,and just insults me when I do have a fit, or a vomiting attack.. but I think If I lost consciousness he’d call an ambulance,and thats something I fear I could be incapacitated from doing myself.he can be nice sometimes..just not very often,and at least he dont beat me up,like my previous ex…. . and I can’tlive with other people, since loud music/noise et makes me more irritated and anxious,and in England private landlords(and most public ones) wont let my dog live with me, and I couldnt bear to be without her.. shes wthe most important(and caring!) person in my life. PHM

Response:

If poor air quality is a significant cause of depression most of us would not be here today.  Our parents would have had no desire to have sex.  The Pittsburgh area would have the largest concentrations of mental hospitals in the world.  There would be no work there because everyone would be too depressed to work.  The only sane people would be those living in the Great Plains. You need to get off this clean air kick.  It has virtually nothing to do with your mental health. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE. I agree. For what it’s worth I have lived in many places where "fresh air" was plentiful. I am very healthy according to my doctor and can still outwork three men half my age. I eat good food, I sleep well, and the air here is clean, yet I would be in very bad shape without the "meds" that you so often say we don’t need. So the question is: WHY?  - K Why? You want to know why? I have known many people in my life and most have acute symptoms from different variations of stress or depression. or physical condition or now ASTHMA . I can tell you Doctors are swamped in many cities because bad air does spell many illnesses , not only asthma but even people who get asthma as adults don’t see how the air where they live affect their health.In my city every other commercial is for allergy or asthma or depression or anxiety pills. So don’t tell me you and everyone else is doing everything right. Our news media ignore the obvious and instead of telling you the air is so bad its dangerous , they say its beautiful and hot . . Now when I add it all up, most people who take meds that I know, are not in great shape and smoking and stress go together like milk and honey. I personally don’t care, if your set in your ways of taking meds. I know there is a correlation between doing healthy things and feeling better from a myriad of conditions. My belief is that anxiety IS most definitely one of the conditions that can be sucessfully treated without major meds. There can be studies had, to prove that the quality of air and environment including type of family care , and diet most definitely can influence the outcome for people with anxiety but Like I said before, all too often , people would rather think there is a magic bullet instead and those studies will never come because pharmacy companies won’t make a profit from clean air. Proper breathing exercises and exercise and good food and good air , would put I believe most people into a better spiritual and physical existence but there is too much riding on drugs and keeping people from the pollution forecast to think these studies will be around soon. Pardon me if I just want to show the correlations for people who wish to believe. There is a cook on puble tv, Christine , who was diagnosed with Cancer and then really went about to change her lifestyle and what she ate. She nows enjoys great health, her beauty radiates and I am sure she is giving it back by helping people appreciate the hundreds of veggies most people will never see in their lifetime. I run in the parks and can tell you many people don’t in many cities because the air is too stifling to breathe. So I don’t buy thare are too many people in some cities that are doing great period , mentally or physically because of the way our society ignores the obvious.  but pharmacy companies are not going to make that correlation clear and our politicians would rather see dead people before they implement diesel free buses. The whole freaking US has conspiracies in my mind, from stocks and inside trading to people not being told how to maximize their life to horrible music ( yes conspiracy) on fm radio. So call me alternative or paranoid or whateve, I tried to make a difference. The message is out there for people not to make the same mistakes as I did.

Response:

mcs wrote to Rich: I am looking to start a moving business ( lol) but if you really want to get off that meds stuff, email me.

No where in Rich’s post does he say that he wants to get off the meds. Rich seems to have anxiety and depression in a very bad way.  The drug Klonopin is excellent for his anxiety, and Prozac helps with his depression.  The other 2 drugs, Risperdal and (?) are not familiar to me, but if it helps him, thats good.  There are a few people who can manage their depression and anxiety without drugs, but most can’t. Especially if its a chemical imbalance due to a genetic flaw or whatever.  I don’t understand this mentality that drugs are not good for our condition.  Ativan surely helps me.  Without it, I would be very anxious, and in certain situations, I would get a panic attack.  Ativan, to me, is a miracle drug.  I am sure that Rich is being helped in the same way.  Why do you want to give him ideas to get off the meds?  Would you tell a diabetic to get off their drugs?  How about Parkinson’s disease?  Or painful Arthritis?  Depression, anxiety, and panic is just as valid as these diseases, but you and some others in this group seem to think that this condition we have is ‘all in our minds’.  And that we should just snap out of it.  And just take a walk and breathe in fresh air.  Sorry, but the meds help the most.   I foolish went into the group "methods of suicide", and foolishly told potential suicide victims that its wrong to kill themselves, and that they should live to the fullest because its a short life anyway. Of course, I was called a troll, and they told me to get out of the group because they all wanted to die, and I had no business being in there.  I took the hint quickly, and left and never returned.  In some ways, you (mcs) and a few others are doing the same thing in this group.  WE need support, and info about meds.  WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE.  The drugs come first, and then the good food and the exercise and all thats good for us in general.  Even chocolate..lol.  Do you understand what I am saying to you mcs?  I think your name is Steve, right?  Nevertheless, all forms of opinion is healthy and good, and your input is good, but not correct in my opinion. And whats that saying…"every azzhole has an opinion".  LOL   Art Decco…nyc, usa

Response:

WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE.

I agree. For what it’s worth I have lived in many places where "fresh air" was plentiful. I am very healthy according to my doctor and can still outwork three men half my age. I eat good food, I sleep well, and the air here is clean, yet I would be in very bad shape without the "meds" that you so often say we don’t need. So the question is: WHY?  - K

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich The support of your wife is a valuable thing for you, having someone who loves and helps you can help overcome anything.. sadly my boyfriend is unsupportive, and only adds to my anxiety, for example,if we are in a car going somewhere and I feel nervous, and i tell him can we stop as I feel nervous, he’ll punch the car, or put his foot on the accelarator, or jump a redlight,or do something crazy, he behaves similarly weird if I criticize him, or express my fears or ill feeling at home. But I cant kick him out because Im more afraid of being alone, I feel like I am dying when alone, even for a few hours because I have bad stomach problems,so I need a company to distract me from my physical pains..actually he doesnt even distract me..he just ignores me when we’re together, or insults me or yells at me,or harrasses me into sleeping with him.when I dont want to, then insults me afterwards, but even this is better than what would happen if I was left alone permanently, I have fits, which can be life threatenening, and have seen someone I knew die of a similar condition.. so I have reason to be scared, and stay in this miserable situation.(and no,i have no friends or family who would help me) So you see, consider yourself lucky to have this valuable asset, and tell her ever day how much she means to you.. and show her.. you haveevery chance of overcoming this. PHM

Thank you for replying to my post. Your current situation sounds like what I was going through with my parents. Man that has to be tough. Not only do you have to deal with the anxiety,panic, depression, but you have to put up with a boyfriend who’s abusive. You deserve better than that. Are you absolutely sure you cant handle being alone. Man sounds like he just adds to your anxiety and panic. Your bf is selfish and mean. Do you use any instant messengers, yahoo, msn, etc..maybe can connect via those….of course you can email me anytime take care.. rich

Response:

Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich

Nice to meet you Rich. If I wasn’t in alt.support.anxiety-panic I’d really think someone was trying to wind me up. Take care

Response:

Rich, you are certainly in the right group, and welcome aboard.  What you said about yourself can be said for most, if not all, of us in here. I especially got a kick out of your "it feels like I have an IV drip of caffeine in me".   I hope you post often.   Art Decco…nyc, usa

Hi Art.     Thanks for replying. About the descriptive. I’ve learned how to be descriptive      in descriping this condition to people who dont understand. I used that IV drip description to describe to my pdoc.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – WE don’t need this talk of…"get off the meds, its no good for you, eat fresh fruit and vegetables, exercise daily, and bingo…everything is ok now.  No more sadness, no more nervous feeling etc.  NONSENSE. I agree. For what it’s worth I have lived in many places where "fresh air" was plentiful. I am very healthy according to my doctor and can still outwork three men half my age. I eat good food, I sleep well, and the air here is clean, yet I would be in very bad shape without the "meds" that you so often say we don’t need. So the question is: WHY?  - K

Why? You want to know why? I have known many people in my life and most have acute symptoms from different variations of stress or depression. or physical condition or now ASTHMA . I can tell you Doctors are swamped in many cities because bad air does spell many illnesses , not only asthma but even people who get asthma as adults don’t see how the air where they live affect their health.In my city every other commercial is for allergy or asthma or depression or anxiety pills. So don’t tell me you and everyone else is doing everything right. Our news media ignore the obvious and instead of telling you the air is so bad its dangerous , they say its beautiful and hot . . Now when I add it all up, most people who take meds that I know, are not in great shape and smoking and stress go together like milk and honey. I personally don’t care, if your set in your ways of taking meds. I know there is a correlation between doing healthy things and feeling better from a myriad of conditions. My belief is that anxiety IS most definitely one of the conditions that can be sucessfully treated without major meds. There can be studies had, to prove that the quality of air and environment including type of family care , and diet most definitely can influence the outcome for people with anxiety but Like I said before, all too often , people would rather think there is a magic bullet instead and those studies will never come because pharmacy companies won’t make a profit from clean air. Proper breathing exercises and exercise and good food and good air , would put I believe most people into a better spiritual and physical existence but there is too much riding on drugs and keeping people from the pollution forecast to think these studies will be around soon. Pardon me if I just want to show the correlations for people who wish to believe. There is a cook on puble tv, Christine , who was diagnosed with Cancer and then really went about to change her lifestyle and what she ate. She nows enjoys great health, her beauty radiates and I am sure she is giving it back by helping people appreciate the hundreds of veggies most people will never see in their lifetime. I run in the parks and can tell you many people don’t in many cities because the air is too stifling to breathe. So I don’t buy thare are too many people in some cities that are doing great period , mentally or physically because of the way our society ignores the obvious.  but pharmacy companies are not going to make that correlation clear and our politicians would rather see dead people before they implement diesel free buses. The whole freaking US has conspiracies in my mind, from stocks and inside trading to people not being told how to maximize their life to horrible music ( yes conspiracy) on fm radio. So call me alternative or paranoid or whateve, I tried to make a difference. The message is out there for people not to make the same mistakes as I did.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich

The support of your wife is a valuable thing for you, having someone who loves and helps you can help overcome anything.. sadly my boyfriend is unsupportive, and only adds to my anxiety, for example,if we are in a car going somewhere and I feel nervous, and i tell him can we stop as I feel nervous, he’ll punch the car, or put his foot on the accelarator, or jump a redlight,or do something crazy, he behaves similarly weird if I criticize him, or express my fears or ill feeling at home. But I cant kick him out because Im more afraid of being alone, I feel like I am dying when alone, even for a few hours because I have bad stomach problems,so I need a company to distract me from my physical pains..actually he doesnt even distract me..he just ignores me when we’re together, or insults me or yells at me,or harrasses me into sleeping with him.when I dont want to, then insults me afterwards, but even this is better than what would happen if I was left alone permanently, I have fits, which can be life threatenening, and have seen someone I knew die of a similar condition.. so I have reason to be scared, and stay in this miserable situation.(and no,i have no friends or family who would help me) So you see, consider yourself lucky to have this valuable asset, and tell her ever day how much she means to you.. and show her.. you haveevery chance of overcoming this. PHM

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Rich, you are certainly in the right group, and welcome aboard.  What you said about yourself can be said for most, if not all, of us in here. I especially got a kick out of your "it feels like I have an IV drip of caffeine in me".   I hope you post often.   Art Decco…nyc, usa

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Hey Rich, any nice apts near you? lol I am looking for friends and places to live but I assume people think I am kidding. I am looking to start a moving business ( lol) but if you really want to get off that meds stuff, email me. In addition one thing I would think about as you evolve, try not to do what was done to you, to those you care about or meet. Its a sad reality we tend to make the same mistakes unless we are aware of the connections. Thats just one tip…many more. and good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Everyone    I’m new here but I’m not new to anxeity, panic and depression. My name is rich I’m from Connecticut and I’m 32 years old. I was diagnoised with depression and an anxiety disorder in 1992.     When I was first diagnoised with depression and high anxiety i wa living with my parents. Who just happen to be alcholic and abusive. Up to the point of diagnoisis i had been in the abusive situation for years. So I assume my enviroment had something to do with the diagnoisis but not all of it.     I’ve come from a really dysfunctional home. My parents are not well. I didnt get the care I needed for my condition until a few years after my diagnosis when I met my wife.     I’m on disability because the depression and anxeity and sometimes panic have messed me up so I cant hold down a job. I hate the situation. When people look at me they cant tell of the the war thats going on inside of me with my nerves. Through my eyes I feel like a deer in the headlights. I always seem to have a lightheaded feeling, varying in degrees of intensity. Seems as thou my nerves are always working overtime for no reason. I do take medications for my illneses. I take prozac, depakote, risperdal, and konipan. No one drug for the nerves has worked 100% no matter what I take I still feel like i’m on an IV drip of caffiene.     I myself keep pretty much to myself. I guess I’m a bit of a loner. Although i would like to meet new friends in my life. Theres seems to be a lack of understanding people out there where it comes to dealing with depression and high anxiety.      Welp thats it for me for now..take care to everyone. rich

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This is my second time writing this out (teaches me to do this during an electrical storm!) so I’ll be MUCH more brief. I take Effexor (venlafaxine I think).  Did not see it anywhere on this group.  Any info on it or am I the only one taking it :^) Have had a few PA’s but realized that I now just avoid those situations which mad me take a look at myself and how I dealt with things.  I realized that I probably had PAD for a while (I’ve always been "shy" or "quiet").  My wife was very supportive when i told her what I thought was up with me.  She is a real sweetheart.  I guess i want just get some feedback on what others do.  I don’t know anyone else with this (at least none that I am aware of). Thats it for now — Cory

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Hi Cory,  Welcome to asap. I take Effexor (venlafaxine I think).  Did not see it anywhere on this group.  Any info on it or am I the only one taking it :^)

sorry can’t help with info about effexor(don’t take it) Have had a few PA’s but realized that I now just avoid those situations which mad me take a look at myself and how I dealt with things.

Beleive me, avoiding pa causing situations can lead to a lot of things you may start avoiding later on, it is easier to start doing something to "nip it in the bud" early on. realized that I probably had PAD for a while (I’ve always been "shy" or "quiet").

 Sounds a lot like me.  My wife was very supportive when i told her what I thought was up with me.  She is a real sweetheart.  I guess i want just get some feedback on what others do.  I don’t know anyone else with this (at least none that I am aware of).

There are quite a few phsycologists here (in Van) that deal specifically with pa and use the CBT method in overcoming them. You may want to look into this. I was at a seminar dealing with pa’s on Thursday nite and there were 500 people there (kinda took the organisers by surprise!) so u can see that you are not alone. As a matter of fact there are quite a few people from the Van area that post to this group, so i am sure u will hear from them too.  If you have any questions feel free to email me Take care, ChrisB Now running PowWow (I think)

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Hi, Saw your post.You have the most important element in place.The support of your wife is the most crucial thing about this illness.Treat her like gold she sounds like she’s worth it                   Peace   JMiles

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I take Effexor (venlafaxine I think).  Did not see it anywhere on this group.  Any info on it or am I the only one taking it :^)

Cory, Effexor is a very good antidepressant with both norepinephrine and serotonin properties. The serotonin reuptake inhibition should make it as effective as SSRI’s like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft or Luvox. To my knowledge, I’ve only seen one or two studies on Effexor and panic, but the drug only won U.S. FDA approval in April, 94. Several patients on it have done well with their panic. Hope this helps. Lane Cook, M.D.

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