Question:

I’ll tell you what how’s about this I will do the flush and if you can get someone to analyse them (respecting my privacy) you can get them analysed? Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after) I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are. You mean alties haven’t already done this? It would seem to be a VERY obvious thing to do to see if these flushes are working, as would a before-and-after set of ultrasounds or CT scans. Why haven’t such things been done? A positive result for such things would at least be preliminary evidence that these flushes *might* work, but I’ve yet to see an altie show even evidence that rudimentary. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

Response:

Sometimes your poo is larger than your anus. Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known? In many cases, there’s no real point.  It’s obvious on the face of it, for example, that these "gall bladder flushes" can’t possibly work, because the supposed "gallstones" they produce are far too large to fit through the bile duct.  My favorite analogy is that it’d be like trying to push a beach ball through a garden hose.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Response:

You don’t even need people with stones, scan yourself, take the flush, if you have no stones and zillioins come out then you know there’s a rabbit up. Take the stones to your chem lab, get them analysed and show what they are. I think the fact that someone on here was flushing and later (when they needed surgery) were found to be ‘very stoned’ is a decent enough argument against the flush. Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  "Mark Probert-February 28, 2004" <Mark Very simple. Not very expensive. Yet I have not seen a single altie describe or quote such a study? Why has such a blindingly obvious and simple study not been done? It’s so freaking simple as far as medical studies go, yet it appears that alties haven’t done it. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

Response:

Pretty simple really , there is no money to be made by them out of any natural cures . As for gallstones , questions you may have will most likely be answered somewhere here http://www.curezone.com/cleanse/liver/ if you take the time to check it out . Make up your own mind , like I said , it worked for me and others I know so I am not interested in arguing with the detractors , their opinions are of no relevance to me . My doctor certainly knows the difference between gallstones and some imaginary mixture of oil and grapefruit juice . Have you ever wondered why the detractors are so vocal about something that they claim doesn’t work ? , if it was so then why would they even bother to comment ? , to save us all from what ? Bew

Again, just curious.  How would you do a Million Dollar, double blind, controlled  test on what, olive oil & something else? Would you also use a "placebo"?  Seems like all this would be a little overkill just to find out what the "stones" are actually composed of.  But that’s just me.

— Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known?

In many cases, there’s no real point.  It’s obvious on the face of it, for example, that these "gall bladder flushes" can’t possibly work, because the supposed "gallstones" they produce are far too large to fit through the bile duct.  My favorite analogy is that it’d be like trying to push a beach ball through a garden hose.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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 "Mark Probert-February 28, 2004" <Mark Would require controlled testing and double blind studies. Nope. It would require a sonogram for definitive diagnosis, which is the first step. It would then require a flush, which is cheapo, and then a follow-up sonogram to see if the stones are still there. Simple. So simple that one wonders why the proponents of these flushes do not apply to NCCAM for a couple of bucks to provide the studies. The only reason I can think of is that they are afraid the results wil show that the flushes do not work.

Yeah, it’s amusing how alties always use that the old red herring of needing to do a huge study to prove their results. Sometimes it’s true, but most times it’s not. Depending upon the specfic case, you don’t always need to do such large studies to develop preliminary evidence supporting your claim. In the case of gallbladder flushes, I have posted repeatedly an example of a trial that could be done for maybe $20,000 that would demonstrate whether or not the claim that flushes can get rid of gallstones has enough merit to go on to a bigger study for confirmation. Basically, all that would have to be done is to find some patients with ultrasound-confirmed symptomatic gallstone disease scheduled to undergo surgery and then, before surgery, do ultrasounds before, during, and after a course of gallbladder flushes to see if the number of gallstones decreased. Very simple. Not very expensive as far as medical studies go. In addition, patients can look at their stools and retrieve anything that looks like gallstones so that they can be analyzed to determine if they are, in fact, gallstones or not. Very simple. Not very expensive. Yet I have not seen a single altie describe or quote such a study? Why has such a blindingly obvious and simple study not been done? It’s so freaking simple as far as medical studies go, yet it appears that alties haven’t done it. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

Response:

Again, just curious.  How would you do a Million Dollar, double blind, controlled  test on what, olive oil & something else? Would you also use a "placebo"?  Seems like all this would be a little overkill just to find out what the "stones" are actually composed of.  But that’s just me.

Explained in another post by me. The claim that a million dollar study would be needed up front was a red herring. You don’t need to start with a million dollar study to develop preliminary evidence in support of flushes. I described how such a preliminary single arm study could be done for $10,000 or $20,000. If the less expensive study was promising, then the larger study could be undertaken. The less expensive study would involve patients with documented symptomatic gallstone disease scheduled to undergo surgery. They would delay their surgery a few weeks or months in order to undergo "flushes." Ultrasound studies would be done before, during, and after the series of flushes to see if the number of gallstones decreased during therapy. Any objects that look like stones passed in their stools would be examined to determine if they are stones. Their gallbladders could all then be examined after surgery to look for evidence of gallstone dissolution and pathologic changes. Promising results that might support a randomized study would include objective evidence of a decrease in gallstone number on ultrasound or large numbers of gallstones being passed in the stool of the patients. If more money were available, this could be made into a small randomized study in which one group got the flushes before surgery and one group did not. If the pilot study were promising, a bigger study could be done to confirm and extend the results. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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It may be overkill but the "Scientific world" requires it and even then they would say, in denial, it isn’t peer reviewed and backed by many other studies. This doesn’t seem to apply to the Pharm Giants though. Their word is taken because they would never profit from bent statements. (sarc)

Wrong.  It would not be difficult to do a much less expensive study to see if gallbladder flushes do what alties claim they do. The less expensive study would involve patients with documented symptomatic gallstone disease scheduled to undergo surgery. They would delay their surgery a few weeks or months in order to undergo "flushes." Ultrasound studies would be done before, during, and after the series of flushes to see if the number of gallstones decreased during therapy. Any objects that look like stones passed in their stools would be examined to determine if they are stones. Their gallbladders could all then be examined after surgery to look for evidence of gallstone dissolution and pathologic changes. Promising results that might support a randomized study would include objective evidence of a decrease in gallstone number on ultrasound or large numbers of gallstones being passed in the stool of the patients. If more money were available, this could be made into a small randomized study in which one group got the flushes before surgery and one group did not. If the pilot study were promising, a bigger study could be done to confirm and extend the results. Such a pilot study could be done for maybe $20,000. Are you saying alties can’t come up with that much money for a study? — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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Would require controlled testing and double blind studies.

Nope. It would require a sonogram for definitive diagnosis, which is the first step. It would then require a flush, which is cheapo, and then a follow-up sonogram to see if the stones are still there. Simple. So simple that one wonders why the proponents of these flushes do not apply to NCCAM for a couple of bucks to provide the studies. The only reason I can think of is that they are afraid the results wil show that the flushes do not work. This may cost up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to one million dollars to perform. The medical control people have made sure that "no money" medical procedures are never tested so they can keep putting them down and disputing them successfully to the ignorant people. Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known?  .

Response:

It may be overkill but the "Scientific world" requires it and even then they would say, in denial, it isn’t peer reviewed and backed by many other studies. This doesn’t seem to apply to the Pharm Giants though. Their word is taken because they would never profit from bent statements. (sarc)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, just curious.  How would you do a Million Dollar, double blind, controlled  test on what, olive oil & something else? Would you also use a "placebo"?  Seems like all this would be a little overkill just to find out what the "stones" are actually composed of.  But that’s just me.

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Again, just curious.  How would you do a Million Dollar, double blind, controlled  test on what, olive oil & something else? Would you also use a "placebo"?  Seems like all this would be a little overkill just to find out what the "stones" are actually composed of.  But that’s just me.

Response:

(Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after)

That is what I asked Bew for and Bew took a hike on a direct response. That is exactly the problem with Alties such as Bew, when asked a direct question that can lead to proof of their claims, they do not provide a direct answer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are. Anth (You should speak to someone in here who did a flush and found out later that his bladder was still full of stones) He reported pain relief though. Anth Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones as did others I know . I do the flush at least twice a year . I have gone from pain , sickness and feeling constantly bloated to feeling great , my gallbladder attacks disappeared after the first flush I did three years ago and have never returned . It certainly gave me a new lease on life , check it if you are wondering and make up your own mind about it . Cheers — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Would require controlled testing and double blind studies.

Eventually, but not necessarily right off the bat. This may cost up to one million dollars to perform.

Preliminary studies wouldn’t. (See below.) The medical control people have made sure that "no money" medical procedures are never tested so they can keep putting them down and disputing them successfully to the ignorant people.

What alties seem to forget is that controlled studies are the last step in developing evidence for a treatment. Before that, you have to do preliminary studies to determine if the controlled studies are even worth pursuing. If the preliminary studies are promising, THEN the randomized studies become worthwhile. Often, these preliminary studies are not all that expensive. Certainly, in the case of gallbladder flushes, it would be relatively inexpensive. One preliminary study would actually be fairly easy and straightforward. It wouldn’t even be that expensive and could probably be done for maybe $10,000 or $20,000, depending on the number of patients used. You would need a group of patients with symptomatic gallstones documented by ultrasound and whatever other medical tests were appropriate. You could choose a group that was going to undergo surgery anyway, but have them delay their surgery a few weeks to undergo the full course of gallbladder flushes. You could then do ultrasound studies of them before the flushes, in the middle of the flushes, and after the flushes are complete. Anything they pass in their stool that looks like it might be a stone, you would count and send to the lab to determine if it really is a stone. At the end, you would look at the pathology results of the gallbladders removed and carefully look at the remaining stones to see if there were any signs that they had shrunk. (The cost of surgery would not be in the study budget because surgery is the standard of care for symptomatic gallbladder disease and would therefore be paid for by insurance or other means.) Any objective evidence that the number of gallstones decreased in the group of people treated with flushes would be considered a promising result. Any evidence that people undergoing gallbladder flushes were passing lots of gallstones in their stool would be considered a promising result. Randomized double-blind studies may be the gold standard as far as evidence goes, but less complicated and less expensive studies are the preliminary work necessary to justify them. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known?  .

Response:

Would require controlled testing and double blind studies. This may cost up to one million dollars to perform. The medical control people have made sure that "no money" medical procedures are never tested so they can keep putting them down and disputing them successfully to the ignorant people.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known?  .

Response:

Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones No, you got rid of hundreds of little blobs made up of the junk you took to get rid of the gallstones.  Gallstones are tiny little things that look like bits of gravel.  They aren’t big fatty blobs.

Cholesterol gallstones can be a bit crumbly and deformable, but most gallstones are not. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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(Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after) I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are.

You mean alties haven’t already done this? It would seem to be a VERY obvious thing to do to see if these flushes are working, as would a before-and-after set of ultrasounds or CT scans. Why haven’t such things been done? A positive result for such things would at least be preliminary evidence that these flushes *might* work, but I’ve yet to see an altie show even evidence that rudimentary. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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(Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after) I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are. Anth Exactamundo ! Scanning before and after ! You are on the right track about the "stone" testing.

The next step for him is to start wondering WHY such blindingly obvious studies either have not been done or are never mentioned by proponents of gallbladder flushes. If he reaches that point, there may be hope for him yet. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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Curious…has nobody out there done any definitive serious testing in this area to determine whether there is any value in "stone flushing" or whether its devotees are several salami slices short of a sandwich? What about all that Government CAM money research?  Doesn’t seem like this would be rocket science…or would it?  Or maybe the product sellers//practioners would rather this info not be known?

As I said to Anth, once you start wondering WHY such blindingly obvious studies either haven’t been done or are never mentioned by devotees of gallbladder flushes, you have started on the road to–shudder–scientific questioning of alt-med claims. Just a little further, and you can join us on the Dark Side. — Orac        |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."             |             |"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you             | inconvenience me with questions?"

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(Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after) I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are. Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (You should speak to someone in here who did a flush and found out later that his bladder was still full of stones) He reported pain relief though. Anth Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones as did others I know . I do the flush at least twice a year . I have gone from pain , sickness and feeling constantly bloated to feeling great , my gallbladder attacks disappeared after the first flush I did three years ago and have never returned . It certainly gave me a new lease on life , check it if you are wondering and make up your own mind about it . Cheers — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

(Best thing would be some kind of scan before and after) I’d like to see someone actually take these stones and mail them off to a lab to see what indeed they are. Anth

Exactamundo ! Scanning before and after ! You are on the right track about the "stone" testing. — Take out the G’RBAGE to reply

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(You should speak to someone in here who did a flush and found out later that his bladder was still full of stones) He reported pain relief though. Anth

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones as did others I know . I do the flush at least twice a year . I have gone from pain , sickness and feeling constantly bloated to feeling great , my gallbladder attacks disappeared after the first flush I did three years ago and have never returned . It certainly gave me a new lease on life , check it if you are wondering and make up your own mind about it . Cheers — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones as did others I know . I do the flush at least twice a year . I have gone from pain , sickness and feeling constantly bloated to feeling great , my gallbladder attacks disappeared after the first flush I did three years ago and have never returned . It certainly gave me a new lease on life , check it if you are wondering and make up your own mind about it . Cheers — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones as did others I know . I do the flush at least twice a year . I have gone from pain , sickness and feeling constantly bloated to feeling great , my gallbladder attacks disappeared after the first flush I did three years ago and have never returned . It certainly gave me a new lease on life , check it if you are wondering and make up your own mind about it .

That may be your problem, you are merely leasing your life. I own mine.

Response:

Are you thinking of trying a gallbladder flush . There are many out there , the one that worked for me and others I know was the olive oil and grapefruit juice . I had great success with it and got rid of hundreds of stones

No, you got rid of hundreds of little blobs made up of the junk you took to get rid of the gallstones.  Gallstones are tiny little things that look like bits of gravel.  They aren’t big fatty blobs.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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Question:

Hiya all! I lurk a lot–especially to get feedback on new drugs & side effects…I am at the stage that I am on drug roulette. I get a migraine–try a drug & it don’t work. So far my experience has been with Imitrex–didn’t work Amerge—didn’t work & now will try relpax…for the next attack. They recently have me taken zoloft as well for headaches They also have me taken Flexeril & celebrex as needed cause they tend to rid the minor headaches…just not the full out migraines. & getting trigger point therapy—lol feel like a guinea pig–the trigger point works for about 2-3 days. Unfortunately I have headaches everyday. I play the ice pack & heating pad game–rarely helps tho. Have been think acupuncture—any feedback on that. I am so sick of eating drugs like candy–I am 27 & take more than most seniors I know. If anyone has suggestions please feel free to shout out!!! even if they are just on how to rid a headache the best…I want my life back!! So as a recap, I currently take Flexeril PRN Celebrex PRN Relpax PRN Zoloft QD Trigger point every 2 weeks–given by my neurologist & singulair for allergies LOL Jennie Jennie Goldielocks Freebies http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldielocksFreebies/ www.JenniesWorld.com "Let us all, whatever we be in life, learn that life does not come to us in lifetimes, it only comes one day at a time"

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Hiya all! I lurk a lot–especially to get feedback on new drugs & side effects…I am at the stage that I am on drug roulette. I get a migraine–try a drug & it don’t work. So far my experience has been with Imitrex–didn’t work Amerge—didn’t work & now will try relpax…for the next attack. They recently have me taken zoloft as well for headaches They also have me taken Flexeril & celebrex as needed cause they tend to rid the minor headaches…just not the full out migraines. & getting trigger point therapy—lol feel like a guinea pig

You ARE a guinea pig. That’s how migraine is treated by the medical profession in the US.  They WANT to sell you drugs. –the trigger point works for about 2-3 days. Unfortunately I have headaches everyday. I play the ice pack & heating pad game–rarely helps tho. Have been think acupuncture—any feedback on that.

Accupunture can help…but it also takes instruction on how to release tension, and supportive anti-migraine nutritional supplements. I am so sick of eating drugs like candy–I am 27 & take more than most seniors I know. If anyone has suggestions please feel free to shout out!!!

I got better, and am willing to help anyone who wants to give up the drugs.  even if they are just on how to rid a headache the best…I want my life back!!

It’s possible.

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I got better, and am willing to help anyone who wants to give up the drugs.

Right here, Edgar, you’d better be stating that you offer your help for free, or else you are soliciting within Usenet.

"…you’d better be stating…"  LOL Edgar, you should ignore these not-so-subtle, yet empty threats from the self-appointed moderator. You haven’t done anything wrong. Ginnie and the other netkops can’t stop you. They are just trying to annoy you because they want you to make a mistake. Don’t let anything they say bother you or deter you from "soliciting within Usenet." — Juba

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& getting trigger point therapy—lol feel like a guinea pig You ARE a guinea pig. That’s how migraine is treated by the medical profession in the US.  They WANT to sell you drugs.

Jennie is doing the best thing for herself, in seeking the normal kinds of treatment in the medical profession.  That’s where her best chances are.  Your "method" does not have any proof behind it, nor any track record. And every migraine patient is a guinea pig of sorts, because the disease is so different in everyone, with great variances in triggers, and what drugs will be effective, and which won’t.  It’s entirely normal for migraine treatment to be a trial and error exercise, until the right drug(s) for a particular patient are lucked onto. Accupunture can help…but it also takes instruction on how to release tension, and supportive anti-migraine nutritional supplements.

And are you offering that instruction free here, or is this leading to you selling her something? I got better, and am willing to help anyone who wants to give up the drugs.

Right here, Edgar, you’d better be stating that you offer your help for free, or else you are soliciting within Usenet. And Jennie, please be aware that Edgar has no formal degree or licensing in any medical, psychological, or biofeedback field of treatment. Ginnie

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Gennie is a sad old welfare recipient who deserves nothing but pity. I enjoy the group and learn a lot about psychology here. I no longer come here with the idea anyone is going to jump on the health bandwagon. Surprisingly, one of the volunteers, the one I thot relapsed, returned today to talk.  It seems that while not entirely headache or drug free, she reports using 1/10th as much medication as she did prior to my program. She is getting out more, and her family is happy she is able to do more things with them now. Another of my recovering migraineurs contacted me about her child who also has migraine. Using the same principals discovered in my regular program, we adjusted the training so an adult could teach it to a small child.  Will it work? I sure hope so.  Will let you know if ur interested. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got better, and am willing to help anyone who wants to give up the drugs. Right here, Edgar, you’d better be stating that you offer your help for free, or else you are soliciting within Usenet. "…you’d better be stating…"  LOL Edgar, you should ignore these not-so-subtle, yet empty threats from the self-appointed moderator. You haven’t done anything wrong. Ginnie and the other netkops can’t stop you. They are just trying to annoy you because they want you to make a mistake. Don’t let anything they say bother you or deter you from "soliciting within Usenet."

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Hi Jennie, It is so difficult to find the right remedy cos different things work for different people. I tried acupuncture and it maybe helped a bit but wasn’t a cure… I think it’s another case of "your mileage may vary". I hadn’t heard of Trigger Point Therapy before.  Is it something you can do for yourself or do you have to pay for appointments? Here on this newsgroup you’ll find lots of suggestions including alternative remedies like Co-enzyme-Q10.  That one helped me to get less headaches imbetween migraines but it didn’t stop the migraines. I’ll add the URLs to the newsgroups FAQs just in case you haven’t found them: http://www.meldrum.demon.co.uk/migraine/ http://www.faqs.org/faqs/medicine/migraine/natural-cures/ Hope you find something that helps, Sal

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& getting trigger point therapy—lol feel like a guinea pig You ARE a guinea pig. That’s how migraine is treated by the medical profession in the US.  They WANT to sell you drugs. Jennie is doing the best thing for herself

Ginnie is doing the best thing for herself. It puts you in the crosshairs if it comes to light there is a psychological and a stress element to migraine. It will mean u can’t be online all day to patrol this newsgroup.

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I hadn’t heard of Trigger Point Therapy before.  Is it something you can do for yourself or do you have to pay for appointments?

By neuro injects some type of pain killler (forget the name) into my neck..one one each side. Doesnt hurt much–works for 1-3 days. Thanks for the URLS Jennie Goldielocks Freebies http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldielocksFreebies/ www.JenniesWorld.com "Let us all, whatever we be in life, learn that life does not come to us in lifetimes, it only comes one day at a time"

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No what if just waking up starts a headache LOL & i do not have a clue of my triggers–my migraines start before i eat or anything. I pretty much have a headache everyday. They are a result of a neck trauma when i was young–I was attacked…& kicked in the head many times causing a concusion…so i think its cause of that. Over the years they have been progressively worse. So with that said–got another migraine today–took relpax hoping it kicks in Jennie Jennie Goldielocks Freebies http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoldielocksFreebies/ www.JenniesWorld.com "Let us all, whatever we be in life, learn that life does not come to us in lifetimes, it only comes one day at a time"

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Jennie, if you’re waking up with headaches every day, that suggests several ideas. 1. Have you ever been tested for sleep apnea?  Do you snore (go ahead, admit it!)?  Do you ever seem to stop breathing while you’re sleeping?  Very few people notice it in themselves, but ask the person they sleep with, and sometimes you hear quite a surprising story. Sleep apnea reduces the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream over night, and also causes sleep to be kind of an ongoing struggle to breathe.  So the person wakes up tired, and with a headache from the low oxygen.  Sleep apnea is easily detected and treated. 2. Perhaps your blood sugar gets too low while you’re asleep. If you have a small snack before hitting the snack, something like cheese or complex carbs, it will help keep your blood sugar up during the long period you’re sleeping. 3.  Your pillow(s) might be a problem, with your neck issues.  The ideal pillow varies for everyone, but the idea is to keep your neck supported in a straight line with your spine.  Lots of folks "over"-pillow themselves right into a headache, by stretching the neck too far. Also, pillows need to be sanitized frequently, washed with chlorine in the wash water and dried until thoroughly dry.  otherwise, allergens like dust mites sit there getting breathed in all night, and your nose and sinuses are under attack all night long. 4.  Have you been told by your dentist that you clench your jaws or grind your teeth at night?  That’s a huge cause of daily headaches and migraines, because of the irritation to major nerves in the skull.  Take a look at the NTI device in the attached preventive information, and at these links for an explanation of the problem, and the little dental splint that solves it: NTI-What Is It?   http://www.headacheprevention.com/pages/whatisit.html http://www.headacheprevention.com/ http://www.headacheprevention.com/pages/migraine/migraineinsights.html http://www.drjimboyd.com/book/Title.htm 5.  The attatched list is of the latest migraine preventives, including not just drugs but devices and nutritional supplementation.  This list is published here every so often by one of the generous doctors on this newsgroup.  The  nutritional supplements – with some exceptions like 5htp – can be safely taken with your Rx migraine drugs, but always check with your doctor about them. Good luck, and stay with us.  We’ll try to help you all we can. Ginnie Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Newsgroups: alt.support.headaches.migraine Migraine Prophylaxis On alt.support.headaches.migraine (ASHM). We frequently hear from people who feel they have tried everything for their migraines.  Sometimes that isn’t quite true.  This list is intended as a crosscheck of possibilities for discussion with your doctor. A number of things may help prevent migraine.  One of the most successful is a device, not a pill (See NTI-tss, below).  Some are prescription drugs, a few are over-the-counter (OTC) medicines or nutrition supplements.  None of them completely end migraines; you hope for a significant reduction in the frequency and/or severity. Migraine prevention is an approved indication for only a few of them. This list includes as many beta adrenergic blockers and calcium channel blockers as I could easily identify, even though some members of each class may be poor choices within their class.  The list includes possibilities with little or no further comment and no evaluation. This list needs work.  Perhaps continuing feedback from the group at alt.support.headaches.migraine (ASHM) would help. For another source, try:   http://www.headachedrugs.com.   The site is set up by Lawrence Robbins M.D.  Dr. Robbins and Susan Lang are authors of "Headache Help," Houghton Mifflin Co; ISBN: 0618044361. 2000.   A discussion of drugs is at: http://www.headachedrugs.com/archives/ha_2002.html Teri Robert maintains http://headaches.about.com/, including more detail at http://headaches.about.com/bl-all-meds.htm. In-depth discussions may also be found in the FAQ (frequently asked questions) page for ASHM at http://www.meldrum.demon.co.uk/migraine/. Some USENET participants have recommended http://www.upstate.edu/neurology/haas/index.html. Others caution that it reflects the opinions of a single practitioner, who may at times be overly dogmatic or voice opinions not widely shared among specialists. I. Non-prescription prophylactics   A. Magnesium, up to 750 mg twice a day.  Allow at least three weeks to begin to see an effect.  Smaller amounts of calcium supple- ments may be needed to maintain a proper balance.  (Mg has the advantage of being exceptionally safe.)   B. Co enzyme Q10.  Used in fairly high doses (100 mg per day has been shown effective and some patients tolerate as much as 600 mg/day), this is said to provide very good relief-better than many of the older prescription prophylactics with few side effects. Gastrointestinal upset may occur at high doses and limit dose.  Allow up to 12 weeks for effect.  In Drs. Young and Silberstein’s "Coenzyme Q10 as a Migraine Preventive, a trial of coenzyme Q10," 61.3% of the patients treated had a greater than 50% reduction in number of days with Migraine. Fewer than 1% reported any side effects. Read it at: http://headaches.about.com/library/weekly/aa-coenzymeq10.htm.   C. Vitamin B2 400 mg/day.  Readers advise that B2 is not a commonly available supplement; it

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip " Yeah right Dave. Maybe we should all just stick to the status quo and believe everything that the illuminati controlled medical system push down our throats, like drugs won’t exactly cure anything but they’re all that medical science has been able to come up with. Cures remain elusive for many common diseases and in fact the incidence is growing which is somewhat baffling to medical science but nevertheless, anybody who contradicts the conventional point of view and dares to suggest nutritional or natural cures is ostracised. We are just expected to live with our diseases and hope that that elusive cure will be found one day. Carole I agree with you somewhat except you are wrong on nearly everything else. Still curing the world with meaninglessly small doses of salts? Carole, you need to take about three or four years of chemistry on the Unversity level to just get a clue.

You are way too optimistic about Carole getting a clue. And, she must take Sandbox Chemistry and critical thinking for starters.

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Thanks for the garbage site. I beg your pardon. A child dying from Ritalin is far from garbage. Jan http://www.ritalindeath.com/

Now compare this with other deeds done by Jan Drew. E.g. on one hand Jan Drew persuades parents NOT to have their children vaccinated, as he declares vaccinations to be dangerous.   On the other hand Jan Drew urges parents to let chelations be made to their children. Chelation is dangerous and in most cases of "amalgam-poisoning" without ANY need or positive result. Vaccination save the lives of children. Each year millions of children die because they did NOT get the life-saving vaccinations. Now this very same Jan Drew seeds hatred against the use of Ritalin as a medicament for ADHD. As uncounted times before, Jan Drew proves himself to be a rotten liar who endangers the life of children.                                W A R N I N G              Believing Jan Drew’s lies can lead to the death              of your children and of yourself. Regards, Aribert Deckers —                             "So finden Se Gewinnertypen"                                 (Michael Strachowitz)                                     Eine Analyse                       http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_ml15.htm

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Death From Ritalin

How many people die each year because they drown in water? Ban water! Regards, Aribert Deckers —                             "So finden Se Gewinnertypen"                                 (Michael Strachowitz)                                     Eine Analyse                       http://www.ariplex.com/ama/ama_ml15.htm

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<snip " Yeah right Dave. Maybe we should all just stick to the status quo and believe everything that the illuminati controlled medical system push down our throats, like drugs won’t exactly cure anything but they’re all that medical science has been able to come up with. Cures remain elusive for many common diseases and in fact the incidence is growing which is somewhat baffling to medical science but nevertheless, anybody who contradicts the conventional point of view and dares to suggest nutritional or natural cures is ostracised. We are just expected to live with our diseases and hope that that elusive cure will be found one day. Carole

I agree with you somewhat except you are wrong on nearly everything else. Still curing the world with meaninglessly small doses of salts? Carole, you need to take about three or four years of chemistry on the Unversity level to just get a clue. William Noyes

Response:

I’ll take that as confirmation of my theory. I’ll be waiting for the 400+ line posts sometime soon. You are one of the most pathetic pharma agents, you can’t even flame properly or offer any sort of decent argument unlike putz even who at least got me to research yawn

John you need your meds even if it is just natural pot. And CBI well, he is just a inferior medial posterior orifice. The standard Doctor Patient relationship;-)

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Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD http://www.ritalindeath.com/

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Thanks for the garbage site. It is about as trust-worthy as that whale to site you mention. And like the whale to site, I don’t see the name of the author of the site either. Clearly, this is a very biased site. Jeff

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Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD

My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds? — CBI

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Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds?

Usually, when John enters one of his spewing phases, it’s a sign he’s about to disappear.  I’ve always assumed that the men in the white coats come and take him away, but it could be something else. However, the usual final-phase sign is when he starts reposting very long (400-lines or more) articles, and I haven’t seen much of that yet.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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Thanks for the garbage site.

I beg your pardon. A child dying from Ritalin is far from garbage. Jan http://www.ritalindeath.com/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds? — CBI

This comes from a doctor. It is noted the posting of the URL was snipped. Now for the truth. http://www.ritalindeath.com/ Jan

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<snip David’s belittling John http://www.ritalindeath.com/

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Usually, when John enters one of his spewing phases, it’s a sign he’s about to disappear.  I’ve always assumed that the men in the white coats come and take him away, but it could be something else. However, the usual final-phase sign is when he starts reposting very long (400-lines or more) articles, and I haven’t seen much of that yet.

Ooh!  A testable hypothesis! Anyone up for a pool to pick the date they come to get him?  

Response:

Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds?

I suspect John is so upset at my changing of my email addy to get around his filters that he is posting these articles to be personally annoying to me. However, they have all been debunked before, and wil conitue to be debunked. Instead of annoying, he is amusing.

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Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds?

me on meds?  You must be off yours.  And join the est 1,5 million in the UK addicted to valium type drugs?  say 6 million worldwide, plus all the damage, etc. No thanks

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.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds? me on meds?  You must be off yours.  And join the est 1,5 million in the UK addicted to valium type drugs?  say 6 million worldwide, plus all the damage, etc. No thanks

I’ll take that as confirmation of my theory. I’ll be waiting for the 400+ line posts sometime soon. — CBI

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!!!!!! wrote   Okay, there was a fire and a couple of guys were heroes. That’s nice, but it’s obviously nothing more than a religious agenda. So why crosspost it to misc.emerg-services?

berry why not thats where it should be

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I’ll take that as confirmation of my theory. I’ll be waiting for the 400+ line posts sometime soon.

You are one of the most pathetic pharma agents, you can’t even flame properly or offer any sort of decent argument unlike putz even who at least got me to research yawn

Response:

My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds? Usually, when John enters one of his spewing phases, it’s a sign he’s about to disappear.  I’ve always assumed that the men in the white coats come and take him away, but it could be something else.

Yeah right Dave. Maybe we should all just stick to the status quo and believe everything that the illuminati controlled medical system push down our throats, like drugs won’t exactly cure anything but they’re all that medical science has been able to come up with. Cures remain elusive for many common diseases and in fact the incidence is growing which is somewhat baffling to medical science but nevertheless, anybody who contradicts the conventional point of view and dares to suggest nutritional or natural cures is ostracised. We are just expected to live with our diseases and hope that that elusive cure will be found one day. Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/conspiracy.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, the usual final-phase sign is when he starts reposting very long (400-lines or more) articles, and I haven’t seen much of that yet.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds?

Unlike yourself CBI, who has decided to increase yours, huh? Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – me on meds?  You must be off yours.  And join the est 1,5  million in the UK addicted to valium type drugs?  say 6 million  worldwide, plus all the damage, etc. No thanks I’ll take that as confirmation of my theory. I’ll be waiting for the 400+ line posts sometime soon.

How’s the asthma going, CBI? Still puffing your ventolin? Carole http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/health.htm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My, we have been prolific recently – haven’t we? Let me guess. The new year’s resolution was to go off the meds? Usually, when John enters one of his spewing phases, it’s a sign he’s about to disappear.  I’ve always assumed that the men in the white coats come and take him away, but it could be something else. Yeah right Dave. Maybe we should all just stick to the status quo and believe everything that the illuminati controlled medical system push down our throats, like drugs won’t exactly cure anything but they’re all that medical science has been able to come up with.

Carole!  I see you, too, are out of the restraints and back on the net.  How we’ve missed you! Cures remain elusive for many common diseases and in fact the incidence is growing which is somewhat baffling to medical science but nevertheless, anybody who contradicts the conventional point of view and dares to suggest nutritional or natural cures is ostracised. We are just expected to live with our diseases and hope that that elusive cure will be found one day.

Well, you can live with your diseases if you like.  As for the wholesale rejection of nutrition, I see you missed the news about cinnamon and the control of diabetes type 2. Oh, and your response had nothing to do with what I wrote, thus proving you’re maintaining your usual standards.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Response:

How’s the asthma going, CBI? Still puffing your ventolin?

It is going quite well. We have a solid core of people who have good heads on their shoulders and know lunatics and scammers when they see them. We have done a pretty good job of running off them off just like we did you. I rarely use my albuterol thanks to a solid understandingof the condition and good management. — CBI, MD

Response:

–

http://www.ritalindeath.com/

It would be interesting to know how the pathologist determined the damage to the heart was caused by Ritalin. It cannot have been obvious, and autopsy reports are usually quite objective. Typically the report would have described the condition of the organs in great detail, but would NOT have speculated as to the cause, nor have concluded, "Death caused from Long Term Use of Methylphenidate, (Ritalin)." This sounds bogus to me. –Rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.ritalindeath.com/ Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD www.RitalinDeath.com – Immediate Senate Action Needed – Visit: www.Methylphenidate.net If Your child has suffered any side effects from the new non-stimulant ADHD miracle drug created by Eli Lilly and Company called Strattera (atomoxetine HCl) please report side effects Here. This info will benefit many other children in the future. This is an educational resource for parents who are being pressured into drugging their child for ADHD by a school Psychologist, social worker, teacher, or principle. Parents want what’s best for their child, in many cases at the start of the new school year parents are being told that their child has ADHD and that medication would be a great benefit. Between 1990 and 2000 there were 186 deaths from methylphenidate  reported to the FDA MedWatch program, a voluntary reporting scheme, the numbers of which represent no more than 10 to 20% of the actual incidence.

Note that the deaths were reported, and the cause was *suspected*, not proven. Note who is promoting this: http://www.adhdfraud.org/commentary/1-6-02-2.htm

Dr. Fred baughman, who was one of the leades of the five now defunct lawsuits. He could not even get to first base with his bullshit. Balance of bullshit deleted.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — http://www.ritalindeath.com/ It would be interesting to know how the pathologist determined the damage to the heart was caused by Ritalin. It cannot have been obvious, and autopsy reports are usually quite objective. Typically the report would have described the condition of the organs in great detail, but would NOT have speculated as to the cause, nor have concluded, "Death caused from Long Term Use of Methylphenidate, (Ritalin)." This sounds bogus to me.

The medical literature does not describe MPH causing such a situation. The only reports that I am aware of where there were any problems with the myocardium was when the myocardium was directly injected with MPH. Furthermore, this kid in question has been skateboarding shortly before he died, and had taken a major fall according to witnesses. And, lastly, we must remember that this is the same doctor who was instrumental in getting Jack-the-Dripper Kevorkian and was out of the headlines for a while. He needed something. Note the passage of time since then, and how nothing new has come up.

Response:

Drivel snipped Our 14-year-old Son died from Ritalin use Our fourteen year old son Matthew suddenly died on March 21, 2000. The cause of death was determined to be from the long-term (age 7-14) use of Methylphenidate, a drug commonly known as Ritalin. According to Dr. Ljuba Dragovic, the Chief Pathologist of Oakland County, Michigan, upon autopsy, Matthew’s heart showed clear signs of small vessel damage caused from the use of Methylphenidate (Ritalin).

For contextual purposes, one must remember that Dr. Dragovic had been in the limelight for several years as he was one of the moving forces behind nailing Dr. Jack-the-Dripper Kevorkian for murdering his patients. He must have missed the limelight. The certificate of death reads: "Death caused from Long Term Use of Methylphenidate, (Ritalin)."

However, nowhere in the meidcal literature is a clear demonstration of cause and effect between the actual use of methylphenidate and the clinical findings on autopsy. Thus, this is a leap of logic, and cannot be supported other than being this doctor’s mere opinion. I was told by one of the medical examiners that a full-grown man’s heart weighs about 350 grams and that Matthew’s heart’s weight was about 402 grams. Dr. Dragovic said this type of heart damage is smoldering and not easily detected with the standard test done for prescription refills. The standard test usually consists of blood work, listening to the heart, and questions about school behaviors, sleeping and eating habits.

The young man in question was a very active person, and, earlier that evening had sustained a pretty bad fall while skateboarding. *What is important to note here is that Matthew did not have any pre-existing heart condition or defect.

We often hear stories about kids dieing from unsuspected heart conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Matthew’s story started in a small town within Berkley, Michigan. While in first grade Matthew was evaluated by the school, who believed he had ADHD. The school social worker, Monica Fuchs, kept calling us in for meetings. One morning at one of these meetings while waiting for the others to arrive, Monica told us that if we refused to take Matthew to the doctor and get him on Ritalin, child protective services could charge us for neglecting his educational and emotional needs. My wife and I were intimidated and scared. We believed that there was a very real possibility of losing our children if we did not comply with the schools threats. Monica further explained ADHD to us, stating that it was a real brain disorder. She also went on to tell us that the Methylphenidate (Ritalin) was a very mild medication and would stimulate the brain stem and help Matthew focus. We gave into the schools pressure and took our son to a pediatrician that they recommended. His name was Dr. John Dorsey of Birmingham, Michigan. While visiting Dr. Dorsey with the schools recommendation for Methylphenidate (Ritalin) in hand, I noted that he seemed frustrated with the school. He asked us to remind the school that he was not a pharmacy. I can only conclude from his comment that we were not the first parents sent to him by this school. Dr. Dorsey officially diagnosed Matthew with ADHD. The test used for the diagnosis was a five minute pencil twirling trick, resulting in me being handed a prescription for Methylphenidate/Ritalin.

This sounds patently absurd. Could a lawsuit be motivating the yarn? Snip While Matthew was taking Methylphenidate (Ritalin), at no time, were we informed of any test: EKG, echocardiogram. These types of tests could have detected the damage done to his heart. These test are not considered "standard" in monitoring "treatment" of ADHD they are usually never administered to children. Sadly death is inevitable without the possibility of detection.

There was no reason to order these tests. Methylphenidate has not been linked to heart disease. Studies prior to this incident showed no clinally significant cardiac response. Snip….. Any death is sad. Making profit off of this, as does Drs. Dragovic and Breggin, is vulture-like.

Response:

http://www.ritalindeath.com/ Death From Ritalin The Truth Behind ADHD www.RitalinDeath.com – Immediate Senate Action Needed – Visit: www.Methylphenidate.net If Your child has suffered any side effects from the new non-stimulant ADHD miracle drug created by Eli Lilly and Company called Strattera (atomoxetine HCl) please report side effects Here. This info will benefit many other children in the future. This is an educational resource for parents who are being pressured into drugging their child for ADHD by a school Psychologist, social worker, teacher, or principle. Parents want what’s best for their child, in many cases at the start of the new school year parents are being told that their child has ADHD and that medication would be a great benefit. Between 1990 and 2000 there were 186 deaths from methylphenidate  reported to the FDA MedWatch program, a voluntary reporting scheme, the numbers of  which represent no more than 10 to 20% of the actual incidence. http://www.adhdfraud.org/commentary/1-6-02-2.htm In 1998 at the National Institutes of Health Consensus on ADHD, the following statement was issued: "We do not have an independent, valid test for ADHD, and there is no data to indicate that ADHD is due to a brain malfunction". We wish to expose the health risks, dangers, and deaths that are a direct result of administering psycho-tropic drugs to children. These psycho-tropic drugs given to children labeled with ADHD include Ritalin, Methylphenidate, Concerta, Dexedrine, Dextrostat, and Metadate, just to name a few. It is time for parents to come together and fight this horrific war against the drugging of our children, America’s future. This crusade requires a united front. If you want to join, contribute, and/or become an active member of this justified crusade please contact us. I hope our story and information will in some way benefit you and your child and prevent our tragedy from being your families

Question:

I think one also needs to consider that until the 19th century these were the ONLY things available.  With all its faults, modern science and chemistry has increased our life spans and made many illnesses that were fatal treatable.  We didn’t have insulin until the 1920’s.  Before that you got the "natural" cure of starvation and then looked forward to death.  I don’t even know if T2 was diagnosed or treated then.  I think you just became ill, it progressed, and you died prematurely.  Before the understanding of modern medicine surgery was done without effective anesthisia.  They’d knock the person out with booze and if lucky some herbals or opiates.  Infection?  A death sentence. I prefer modern times to the choices even my grandmother had.  She probably had GDM (her first child weighed 10lbs. and she was later diagnoses T2) and gave birth without the option of c-section and without the GDM being treated.  It nearly killed her.  Today, her diabetes could be treated and her safety and the baby’s safety easier to ensure. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So you don’t like natural products and those other products that have been used for centuries as cures and methods to a better life. You found Dr. Weil on quackwatch…well I found quackwatch on witchwatch. Thanks for letting me know he can be found in that list.  Only the righteous get there. if this fool insists on throwing away his/her money let them.  It does not change the fact that none of it’s so called natural cures or thousand year old cures are what they claim to be or anything other than scams designed for suckers just like this.  P.T. Barnum expected people like zbrigid to be born every minute. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

Zbrigid scribbled these tid bits Now just because you don’t like natural healing that is your problem not mine.

Hey Brain Dead!  It has nothing to do with not liking natural healing, this has to do with products that do "NOT" work and are proven scams. —     "If the Lord can see his way clear to bless the Republican Party the way it’s been carrying on, then the rest of us ought to get it without even asking."  - Will Rogers  http://www.livejournal.com/users/ronnie_in_dc

Response:

So you don’t like natural products and those other products that have been used for centuries as cures and methods to a better life. You found Dr. Weil on quackwatch…well I found quackwatch on witchwatch. Thanks for letting me know he can be found in that list.  Only the righteous get there.

if this fool insists on throwing away his/her money let them.  It does not change the fact that none of it’s so called natural cures or thousand year old cures are what they claim to be or anything other than scams designed for suckers just like this.  P.T. Barnum expected people like zbrigid to be born every minute. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org  In tribute to the United States of America and the State  of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and  terrorism.

Response:

Zbrigid scribbled these tid bits So you don’t like natural products and those other products that have been used for centuries as cures and methods to a better life.

Because something us used for centuries does not mean it works  LOL —     "If the Lord can see his way clear to bless the Republican Party the way it’s been carrying on, then the rest of us ought to get it without even asking."  - Will Rogers  http://www.livejournal.com/users/ronnie_in_dc

Response:

So you don’t like natural products and those other products that have been used for centuries as cures and methods to a better life. You found Dr. Weil on quackwatch…well I found quackwatch on witchwatch. Thanks for letting me know he can be found in that list.  Only the righteous get there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you think those bracelets are doing you some good, then I can see why you’d like the Chitosan.  Did you remember to get a large bottle of Noni juice to wash it down with?

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I think the bracelets are wonderful.  Some of those used in the family contain magnets which enhance their value and medical effects. We have all been much better using the bracelets and even my doctor wears one. As to Noni, I don’t like the flavour unless it is poured over crushed ice and with a squeeze of lime. Now just because you don’t like natural healing that is your problem not mine. I purchase what we need and use and find it wonderful Why not check out Dr. Andrew Weil and his recipes for health.

I have one of Dr. Weil’s books.  I like some of his advice.  Don’t like some of what he says though, and he is listed at quackwatch.  Chitosan, magnets, copper bracelets and Noni are not natural healing.  They are scams. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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I once charmed a wart off a finger by rubbing it constantly with Vasoline.  No idea why it worked.  Wouldn’t think of recommending it.

You neglected to mention that this was while dancing naked around a holly tree under a full moon. Priscilla — Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.   (thanks be to topfive.com)

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damn! that’s what i did wrong! wasn’t a full moon, and think the holly tree was a poison oak.. oh well next time right? — RK T1 – 5/00 Proud Supporter of Julie Bove & the "THE 2LBS DIET WAS DEVELOPED BY A RETARD!!"*

: : I once charmed a wart off a finger by rubbing it constantly with Vasoline.  No : idea why it worked.  Wouldn’t think of recommending it. : : You neglected to mention that this was while dancing naked around a : holly tree under a full moon. : : Priscilla : — : Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, : minutus carborata descendum pantorum. :   (thanks be to topfive.com)

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horrible….. Nan, Type 2, warts and all.

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I think the bracelets are wonderful.  Some of those used in the family contain magnets which enhance their value and medical effects. We have all been much better using the bracelets and even my doctor wears one. As to Noni, I don’t like the flavour unless it is poured over crushed ice and with a squeeze of lime. Now just because you don’t like natural healing that is your problem not mine. I purchase what we need and use and find it wonderful Why not check out Dr. Andrew Weil and his recipes for health. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you think those bracelets are doing you some good, then I can see why you’d like the Chitosan.  Did you remember to get a large bottle of Noni juice to wash it down with?

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I once charmed a wart off a finger by rubbing it constantly with Vasoline.  No idea why it worked.  Wouldn’t think of recommending it. Nan, Type 2

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And next you will be buying a 300.00 dollar copper bracelet as a cure, same thing as Chito-San. I am not being a smart alec I am trying to stress that I have several copper bracelets and ankle bracelets and they work very well thank you. I have now tried Chitosan and it seems to be working.  I am really surprised as you can get it in any store regular food stores and health stores and under many brands.  This may be something you people just didn’t know about.

If you think those bracelets are doing you some good, then I can see why you’d like the Chitosan.  Did you remember to get a large bottle of Noni juice to wash it down with? — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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Copper bracelets are the joke of the century.  They work for you because you think they work. Read some past post where doctors give "sugar pills" to patients to see if the problem is real or imagined. If the sugar pills work, he knows the illness is imaginary. We have strange minds and for us the problem seems real or the cure seems to work.  Makes a very profitable business for unethical people.                                               Guy Sorry for intruding, I did not read the original post. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And next you will be buying a 300.00 dollar copper bracelet as a cure, same thing as Chito-San. I am not being a smart alec I am trying to stress that I have several copper bracelets and ankle bracelets and they work very well thank you. I have now tried Chitosan and it seems to be working.  I am really surprised as you can get it in any store regular food stores and health stores and under many brands.  This may be something you people just didn’t know about. If you think those bracelets are doing you some good, then I can see why you’d like the Chitosan.  Did you remember to get a large bottle of Noni juice to wash it down with?

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In responce to your original post a web reference was given pointing to research showing that all claims for it were groundless.  If in recent times you have lost weight it is highly unlikely that consuming it is the reason.   This 2nd post, without responding to the original, would lead one to consider your motivations and what responce you are trying to produce from readers.

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Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance.

Thanks to those who posted the very nice and helpful answers.  I was able to find this project in the local Albertsons market.  Didn’t need a special store. Seems to be working pretty good at this point I have already lost 7 pounds in one week. Zbrigid

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And next you will be buying a 300.00 dollar copper bracelet as a cure, same thing as Chito-San. I am not being a smart alec I am trying to stress that

I have several copper bracelets and ankle bracelets and they work very well thank you. I have now tried Chitosan and it seems to be working.  I am really surprised as you can get it in any store regular food stores and health stores and under many brands.  This may be something you people just didn’t know about.

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And next you will be buying a 300.00 dollar copper bracelet as a cure, same thing as Chito-San. I am not being a smart alec I am trying to stress that though all of us would love a nice simple super cure, it DOES NOT EXIST Larrydou

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes …. Who needs enemies with friends like that?  No, ChitoSan, or Chitosan, or shitty spam, no matter how you spell it, WON’T cure diabetes. and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. Since when have fats been "destructive"?  Fat is an essential nutritional component. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Who by?  Assuming you live in the USA, you’re more likely to lose many dollars using it. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Probably, but I don’t.  Don’t care either. Does it work? No, not a chance. Anyone have experience with this product? Probably, but not me Lastly, does it require a prescription. Depends what it is.  If you’re looking to treat diabetes, however, don’t touch it with a barge pole.  It’ll be a waste of money, and if you place faith in it and neglect proper medical treatment, it’ll cause you grave bodily damage. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N — Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) (like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

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Zbrigid scribbled these tid bits I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods.

And you actually believe that even though NIH and CDC and ADA all say their is "NO" cure for diabetes this person knows something all the experts don’t? There are no cures for diabetes. The sooner you learn this the better. THen you can actually get your diabetes under control. THere are no majic cures or miracle treatments only hard work and dicipline. — http://www.livejournal.com/users/ronnie_in_dc (IPs recorded on messageboard posters) RR~ There is no place like ~/

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Millions of people are overweight. Millions of others are fat. All are anxious to  lose weight. If ChitoSan worked well, there would be a stampede for the stuff and you’d hear about it on the network news. Helicopters would be flying over the health supplement stores. Traffic would be tied up for miles. There would be a lot of shouting and jumping for joy. Instead of buying this overpriced junk, just wait for others to do the expensive personal research, and then buy the stuff once it has been proven to be effective and safe. Otherwise eat less and exercise more. Hugh Jass

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N

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do they have proof  its been properly tested? in clinics… unless there is extensive proof do not believe it as of yet i have heard of no sure fire cure for diabetes and nothing i know of can block fat absorbtion except maybe soybeans in any form and fiber i will research this thing and get  the info back to you but if i cant find it go to the second link in my signature some one there can find it for you http://groups.msn.com/KittykatsDiabeticRecipesList/general.msnw http://groups.msn.com/insulinpumpchatroom http://community.webtv.net/kat_8302

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Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes ….

Who needs enemies with friends like that?  No, ChitoSan, or Chitosan, or shitty spam, no matter how you spell it, WON’T cure diabetes. and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods.

Since when have fats been "destructive"?  Fat is an essential nutritional component. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product.

Who by?  Assuming you live in the USA, you’re more likely to lose many dollars using it.   Does anyone know what this product is and its composition?

Probably, but I don’t.  Don’t care either. Does it work?

No, not a chance. Anyone have experience with this product?

Probably, but not me Lastly, does it require a prescription.

Depends what it is.  If you’re looking to treat diabetes, however, don’t touch it with a barge pole.  It’ll be a waste of money, and if you place faith in it and neglect proper medical treatment, it’ll cause you grave bodily damage. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N

– Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany) (like "aa"), remove half of them (leaving, say, "a").

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Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance.

Well…  They’re wrong.  All that stuff will do is lighten your wallet. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N

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http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/weight-loss-etc/chitosan.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N

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Hello All: I have recently been told by some friends(?) that ChitoSan or Chitosan or Chitoson, not sure of the spelling, will cure diabetes and stop the absorbtion of fats and all other destructive parts of foods. I have also been told that one would lose many pounds quickly using this product. Does anyone know what this product is and its composition? Does it work?  Anyone have experience with this product? Lastly, does it require a prescription. Thanks to everyone in advance. Susan Leah N

Foof. Sounds like they’re selling it on the side, or you’re a spammer hiding your little business behind an "innocent question". Check out http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/weight-loss-etc/chitosan.htm, it seems quite thorough in discrediting the "miracle weight-loss" crap.

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Question:

Well, that isn’t very bright.  Is it?  Some of us have serious medical conditions and if we were to stop all medications for at least a week, we could die!

That’s what I thought too, but found it not to be true.  Most of the diseases out there that any one person would have are not so imminently terminal that they would die if no medication were taken for a week. Not even high blood pressure. Interestingly, the high blood pressure in patients, that I am aware of personally, improved by the end of the week without meds.  Perhaps the mind-set that we’re all "just on the verge of crisis or death" is propaganda?  Keeps us in line, doesn’t it. Would be interested to know what disease would kill a person if medication were not taken for a week.  

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Yea, I tried to get some one time, but the local preist wanted nothing to do with blessing basil. However, I dipped it in the Holy Water and it seemed to work just fine…..   BJ LOL – and the Ayurvedic patients are laughing all the way to old age, while the Americans who have gone blind, lost feeling in their legs, and spend all day managing their pills, drop dead while pumping that insulin into their system. Sounds great to me..

Name 2. Let’s see some double blind or even some blood work on animals to double check it. There are some university research studies on it, but if you read the protocols on the positive ones *my ghod* did they do the research badly. All the well-done studies seem to show little to no effect, and adverse effects if they get over-confident and stop taking their other meds.

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I’m living in reality, and most of my family members are in the medical profession (MDs), so…got a real view on this medical industry.  And I DO mean "industry." As for the herbal alternatives not being tested — no kidding.  There’s the crux of the matter.  The MDs don’t want to see them tested. And the AMA is a huge force in keeping herbal alternatives, and chiropractic care (another

Purest horseshit. Many have been thoroughly tested, and *after some decent testing* chiropractic care has reached wide medical and insurance supported use *for back and muscle therapy*. The wilder claims of chiropracty, like the wilder claims of homeopathy, have been repeatedly refuted when done under proper testing conditions. But vaccination and allergy desensitization are homeopathic treatments, by definition, and many other "natural" or "herbal" treatments have been refined into far more useful and dosage controlled treatments, ranging from digitalis (from foxglove) to morphine (from opium) to aspirin (from willow bark, although reprocessed) to insulin itself (originally refined from dog pancreases). Next time you’re in your MIT MD’s doctor’s office ask him his opinion on dandelion as a tonic for the gallbladder, or cranberry extract (not cranberry juice) as a tonic for the urinary tract.  

Dandelions are toxic eaten in quantity. How much, exactly, do you eat? Or do you eat some "derivative" of it? And several women I know drink cranberry juice regularly as a prophylactic medication at their doctor’s recommendation for preventing urinary tract infections. Why pay the extra for the "tonic"? Do you even know what’s in it, or have a hint as to what it’s good for? Being "natural" does not make something good for you. But then again — MDs also don’t know how to maintain heath — only how to treat disease.  Health actually confuses them.

Oh, please. Some doctors have been paid in some countries only to maintain health, and take it on the fiscal chin when they have to treat for illness. Almost every insurance company and medical plan does at least some basic preventive care or provides resources, such as health clubs, pre-natal care, physical therapy, even yoga. Now, go actually document some case of a useful "natural" substance not being looked at. And St. John’s Wort doesn’t count: the reason the over-the-shelf stuff doesn’t get used medically is because it’s purity and consistency of dosage is so low as to be useless, while plenty of medical relatives of much better quality are available. Marijuana might count, but that’s got its own fascinating history with the *textile* industry getting into the act….

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I’ve grown this herb in my garden for years. I use it as I would regular basil and particularly in Asian dishes, but I’ve never heard about it’s use for lowering blood sugar. Please tell me more. Leslie in Atlanta

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Holy Basil is marketed as lowering blood sugar and having a good impact on diabetes. Has anyone tried this herb?  If so, what results?

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Yea, I tried to get some one time, but the local preist wanted nothing to do with blessing basil. However, I dipped it in the Holy Water and it seemed to work just fine…..   BJ LOL – and the Ayurvedic patients are laughing all the way to old age, while the Americans who have gone blind, lost feeling in their legs, and spend all day managing their pills, drop dead while pumping that insulin into their system. Sounds great to me..

How F’ing dare you.  I have been holding my keys, letting you ramble, and giving us, here in the Cincinnati, northern Kentucky area a bad name.  Well, too far.  I, also, live in Northern Kentucky.  I am a Type 1, over 25 years now. 10 years ago, hubby and I bought our 60 acre farm and moved here.  Already loving the area and the farm.  Neighbors are near enough to be called neighbors, but far enough to remain friends.  One neighbor who lived about 3 houses away, maybe a mile and a half, was from southern Kentucky.  (Imagine Dueling Banjos)  Mom chewed tobakky.  When she came over so pappy could lookit two pig feeders we were agivin thim, she sat in the truck and waved me over to talk.  She was chewin and spittin and talking.  The chaw was running down the side of her lips and the spit was not making it past the door.  Anyway she was makin fun of me not knowin how to cook.  Said I need to be taught to use pork fat and how to fry that stuff up right.  I can’t now remember how we got to the subject.  She said she was gonna have Dave over to her house for dinner for a week to get some meat on his bones. (Dave has always hated that he is about 10 to 15 pounds overweight)  Well, Marie, was a character.  She would go out in the fields and pick her and pappy (they weren’t married, he was either her cousin or brother) and their son herbs when they were ill.  She was gonna teach me but she thought I was too dumb to learn.  Her statement, specifically was "Girl, you is soooo dumb". Well, anyway, Marie, passed away from cancer 8 years ago, Pappy passed from cancer 6 years ago; nobody is sure about the son because he was never just right and mom never let him talk to anyone. So, there is absolute proof about your herbs any how they help to live to a wonderful, happy, old age.  Marie was 61, and pappy was 52.  And this is your wonderful northern Kentucky.  So it can’t be in the water or soil. I have a list of doctors that I challenge anyone to find one better.  One sent my daughter to a chiropractor after her car was rearended at a red light.  Another offered to do acupuncture to help me quit smoking.  Another offered ….  Oh well, what a waste of keyboard, …  these docs are highly regarded, and certifed, regular old doctors in specialty fields. Just go away.  Better yet, continue to take your Holy Basil.  Every morning, noon and night.  I have also heard good things about the nicotiana plant. Judy Type 1, 25+ years – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Our doctors don’t have the latitude to actually be "good" doctors, because to be good means to buck the system and consider "non-traditional" treatments (i.e. non-Western biomedicine) for various disorders.  Their malpractice policies and policing/licensing associations won’t tolerate that.  Hence the fallback to current course of treatment.

I have been to several Drs. who have advised non-traditional treatments for me because I am highly sensetive to various medications.  But they were also not good Drs. in that they failed not notice a very serious medical problem that I have and instead were telling me that it was totally something else. Since moving to a different state and finding good Drs. who know what is wrong with me and giving me the correct treatment, I can say this in all honesty.  I think your definition of "good" is not quite right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – While some may say "sure nature may have the cure but until I know I’ll take Western treatments,"  others validly say "Western medicine doesn’t seem to be working, so I’ll try other forms of medicine that have been around 10x longer."  Neither is wrong. It is a matter of what results the person is willing to tolerate. Interesting to note that one well-known doc here in Cincinnati requires his patients to STOP all medications and clear the system for at least a week before he’ll assess the patient at all.  Goes against the writer who encouraged all of us to just keep pumping that medicine into our system (and hope the doctor is competent enough to adjust as needed — and realize if it is not needed at all.)

Well, that isn’t very bright.  Is it?  Some of us have serious medical conditions and if we were to stop all medications for at least a week, we could die! — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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Quack Quack – Spam Spam…. BJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yea, I tried to get some one time, but the local preist wanted nothing to do with blessing basil. However, I dipped it in the Holy Water and it seemed to work just fine….. BJ LOL – and the Ayurvedic patients are laughing all the way to old age, while the Americans who have gone blind, lost feeling in their legs, and spend all day managing their pills, drop dead while pumping that insulin into their system. Sounds great to me..

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Yea, I tried to get some one time, but the local preist wanted nothing to do with blessing basil. However, I dipped it in the Holy Water and it seemed to work just fine…..   BJ

LOL – and the Ayurvedic patients are laughing all the way to old age, while the Americans who have gone blind, lost feeling in their legs, and spend all day managing their pills, drop dead while pumping that insulin into their system. Sounds great to me..

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"Holy Basil, Batman! It’s Thyme we get outta here!"

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Yea, I tried to get some one time, but the local preist wanted nothing to do with blessing basil. However, I dipped it in the Holy Water and it seemed to work just fine…..   BJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Holy Basil is marketed as lowering blood sugar and having a good impact on diabetes. Has anyone tried this herb?  If so, what results?

Response:

I’m living in reality, and most of my family members are in the medical profession (MDs), so…got a real view on this medical industry.  And I DO mean "industry." As for the herbal alternatives not being tested — no kidding.  There’s the crux of the matter.  The MDs don’t want to see them tested. And the AMA is a huge force in keeping herbal alternatives, and chiropractic care (another example) on the "wacko list" in America. Next time you’re in your MIT MD’s doctor’s office ask him his opinion on dandelion as a tonic for the gallbladder, or cranberry extract (not cranberry juice) as a tonic for the urinary tract.   But then again — MDs also don’t know how to maintain heath — only how to treat disease.  Health actually confuses them.

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Our doctors don’t have the latitude to actually be "good" doctors, because to be good means to buck the system and consider "non-traditional" treatments (i.e. non-Western biomedicine) for various disorders.  Their malpractice policies and policing/licensing associations won’t tolerate that.  Hence the fallback to current course of treatment.  

Where are you *living*????? My doc’s an MIT grad. He bucks the insurance hierarchy regularly (which is for many people the real source of resistance to non-standard but functional therapies). But that doesn’t mean he just whips out the next bottle of ginseng/NONI JUICE/rubbing the belly of the magic Buddha/etc. to treat his patients. While some may say "sure nature may have the cure but until I know I’ll take Western treatments,"  others validly say "Western medicine doesn’t seem to be working, so I’ll try other forms of medicine that have been around 10x longer."  Neither is wrong. It is a matter of what results the person is willing to tolerate.

And both are wildly, wildly skewed statements. In far, far too many cases "natural cures" are not tested, have unknown effects, and have entirely unknown *components* because the quality control of the products themselves is nonexistent. In some cases of "natural cures", namely all the damn pyramid scheme sold materials we see lauded here occasionally by spammers such as chromium, NONI JUICE, colloidal silver, etc., the people selling them are suckers trying to make a few bucks because they were told they could make gazillions of dollars in the advertising for the dealership they *purchased* to sell the stuff. And the money in the scheme is really in selling the dealerships, not in selling the stuff. Interesting to note that one well-known doc here in Cincinnati requires his patients to STOP all medications and clear the system for at least a week before he’ll assess the patient at all.  Goes against the writer who encouraged

What a *STUPID* policy, if universal. It would kill a Type 1 diabetic within a few days, and put a transplant recipient or person with peanut allergies at potentially fatal risks. I strongly suspect you’ve once again generalized a much more limited (and potentially sensible policy) into dangerous absolutes. Are you sure you haven’t been dating Michel and learning their posting policies? all of us to just keep pumping that medicine into our system (and hope the doctor is competent enough to adjust as needed — and realize if it is not needed at all.)

Look, oh foolishly hopeful person: "non-traditional" doesn’t automatically mean it’s any good. The treatment has to be evaluated, not on the basis of what someone thinks would be good on a theoretical basis, but on what it actually does. That is at the core of of Western science and, in turn, modern medicine.

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Our doctors don’t have the latitude to actually be "good" doctors, because to be good means to buck the system and consider "non-traditional" treatments (i.e. non-Western biomedicine) for various disorders.  Their malpractice policies and policing/licensing associations won’t tolerate that.  Hence the fallback to current course of treatment.   While some may say "sure nature may have the cure but until I know I’ll take Western treatments,"  others validly say "Western medicine doesn’t seem to be working, so I’ll try other forms of medicine that have been around 10x longer."  Neither is wrong. It is a matter of what results the person is willing to tolerate. Interesting to note that one well-known doc here in Cincinnati requires his patients to STOP all medications and clear the system for at least a week before he’ll assess the patient at all.  Goes against the writer who encouraged all of us to just keep pumping that medicine into our system (and hope the doctor is competent enough to adjust as needed — and realize if it is not needed at all.)

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Holy Basil is the name of the herb.  Personally, I don’t think our American doctors have much of a clue as how to truly manage diabetes, as evidenced by their current practice of putting people on an increasing cocktail of man-made medicines and watching as these patients die of complications.

I think thats a pretty general statement. I’m sure there are some excellent doctors around, and of course there are some bad ones. But it also requires that the diabetic put in their effort too (as other posters have said). I think nature has the cure,

Yes i think this is true, but if a chemist comes up with one, I’ll take that too.  Our doctors are too threatened by this line of questioning.

Some are. I remember being at a specialist and asking if acupuncture would help with my diabetes. They said ‘don’t waste’ your money’. But that question directly threatens there whole existence, they have been trained for chemical therapy, not natural therapy. I’ve seen several friends/relatives die of diabetes related complications.  The mere question – why are so many Americans getting the disease, but relatively few people in other countries?  This question needs to be taken more seriously, and not just diet, but the medical system of the counties where diabetes is low also needs to be considered.

There reason for the abundance of sick people (diabetics and otherwise), I can  genrealize with this: mass industrialism, consumer culture, modern technological landscapes. that is, the world is polluted, nature is being destroyed, humans are becoming dependend on technology, humans are becoming apathetic braindead drones.

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11:13:11 Mon, 28 Jul 2003misc.health.diabetes "dietary supplements advertised by sociopaths"

LOL. I must remember that next time I see some "cure". — London, UK              Home Page:      http://www.tucana.demon.co.uk                          Web Shop:      http://buy.at/tucana           Mobile Phone Ring Tones:      http://www.ringamoby.com "Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference." Gita Bellin

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Holy Basil is the name of the herb.  Personally, I don’t think our American doctors have much of a clue as how to truly manage diabetes, as evidenced by their current practice of putting people on an increasing cocktail of man-made medicines and watching as these patients die of complications. I think nature has the cure, and I think we’re going to realize that as we allow more research on the matter.  Holy Basil may in fact be one of the herbs that can manage diabetes.  Our doctors are too threatened by this line of questioning. I’ve seen several friends/relatives die of diabetes related complications. The mere question – why are so many Americans getting the disease, but relatively few people in other countries?  This question needs to be taken more seriously, and not just diet, but the medical system of the counties where diabetes is low also needs to be considered.

    The best way to minimize diabetes is to minimize eating and maximize exercise.    Countries where diabetes is low are those in which the the bulk of the population does not have access to unlimited food and/or have access to an easier life than traditional throughout the human race. Your diabetic friends suffer complications and die prematurely because they don’t control their blood sugars.   They look for magic cures and skip the hard work and sometimes unpleasant medicines which work extremely well for the posters to this newsgroup. The key words in that sentence are:   "hard work",  "unpleasant" and "work extremely well" The bulk of diabetics, in the U.S. at least, are non-compliant.  That means they assume that fervent thoughts or a single pill per day  or "dietary supplements advertised by sociopaths" will cure them and allow them to avoid exercise and enjoy the wide variety of tempting foods available throughout the country.   It doesn’t work that way. Speaking of "supplements advertised by sociopaths":   it sounds like you have found some. Good Luck placing yourself in their hands. Regards   Old Al

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Holy Basil is the name of the herb.  Personally, I don’t think our American doctors have much of a clue as how to truly manage diabetes, as evidenced by their current practice of putting people on an increasing cocktail of man-made medicines and watching as these patients die of complications.   I think nature has the cure, and I think we’re going to realize that as we allow more research on the matter.  Holy Basil may in fact be one of the herbs that can manage diabetes.  Our doctors are too threatened by this line of questioning. I’ve seen several friends/relatives die of diabetes related complications.  The mere question – why are so many Americans getting the disease, but relatively few people in other countries?  This question needs to be taken more seriously, and not just diet, but the medical system of the counties where diabetes is low also needs to be considered.

Response:

Holy Basil is marketed as lowering blood sugar and having a good impact on diabetes. Has anyone tried this herb?  If so, what results?

Is ‘Holy’ the type of basil, or is it the brandname/product name?? Certain herbs may have positive impacts on certain people, making them more healthy, in turn giving them a more stable diabetes. I have yet to see anything miraculous. In general a healthy diet, exercise, and careful management of your diabetes is what works.

Response:

Holy Basil is marketed as lowering blood sugar and having a good impact on diabetes. Has anyone tried this herb?  If so, what results?  

Response:

Holy kamole…it’s spam. c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Holy Basil is marketed as lowering blood sugar and having a good impact on diabetes. Has anyone tried this herb?  If so, what results?

Response:

Spam?  I’m quite serious, my dear. Local herb store claims it controls blood sugar naturally.  Just trying to see if anyone has tried it.   It is also said to control stress hormones. Perhaps you need to try it??? AJ

Response:

Local herb store claims it controls blood sugar naturally.  Just trying to see if anyone has tried it.   It is also said to control stress hormones. Perhaps you need to try it???

What has your meter told you after you tried it w/o taking your meds for a few days?  If you’ve not tried it, please do so and get back to us. — Today, on Paper-view: Pulp Fiction!

Response:

Holy kamole…it’s spam.

Gee, I thought it was something you got at the Cathedral Herb Cottage down the street from me! I’ll have to go ask them sometime. bj

Response:

Local herb stores (and other "health stores") claim a lot of things.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spam?  I’m quite serious, my dear. Local herb store claims it controls blood sugar naturally.

Response:

Millions of people have diabetes. All are anxious to  cure their disease. If any over-the-counter supplement worked well, there would be a stampede for the stuff and you’d hear about it on the network news. Helicopters would be flying over the health supplement stores. Traffic would be tied up for miles. There would be a lot of shouting and jumping for joy. Instead of buying this overpriced junk, just wait for others to do the expensive personal research, and then buy the stuff once it has been proven to be effective and safe. Otherwise try the pharmaceuticals and the insulin your doctor prescribes. They work pretty well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spam?  I’m quite serious, my dear. Local herb store claims it controls blood sugar naturally.  Just trying to see if anyone has tried it.   It is also said to control stress hormones. Perhaps you need to try it??? AJ

Response:

Question:

It has been five years since I last posted on this ng and I realize that even then it was so rare that no one has missed me or noticed that I was no longer participating. Since that time there have been some changes (e.g. my last post was regarding whether or not children should take meds for ADD, now it seems to be which med is best) and some things that are the same (e.g. Joe Parsons – your frequency of posting has me concluding that you still don’t have a real job — Just kidding.) Having lurked here for the past week or so, there is something that I have noticed. At risk of being considered a troll, if you will indulge me a moment… While there is a bit of useful info floating around, and even some legitimate questions being raised, several people now seem to use this ng to meet the same needs supplied by daytime TV. IOW, it has become a soap opera! Follow any thread with more than 4 or 5 msgs and you will see what I mean: The same people start attacking the same other people over and over again. It seems that this has become such an enjoyable activity that rather than just ignoring someone’s inflammatory post, certain people have to respond just to keep it going. The drawback to this is that I seem to notice that there are much fewer people participating than there use to be. This ng was a place where quite a few parents or other adults came with questions about newly diagnosed ADD/ADHD. Go back in the archives to ‘97 – ‘98 and you will see what I mean. It was how we all learned about this disorder we were cursed/blessed with. Maybe it is because now there are so many sources of info that people don’t have to rely on the usenet any more, but then again, it might be because there is so much negativity here that people are turned off and go elsewhere – or are chased off. Is every question or comment now just an excuse to start a flame war???? Just an observation…. Richard

Response:

The drawback to this is that I seem to notice that there are much fewer people participating than there use to be. This ng was a place where quite a few parents or other adults came with questions about newly diagnosed ADD/ADHD.

I don’t know.  I’ve heard about how much better ASAD used to be ever since I got here four years ago.  In my tenure there’ve always been trolls and there’ve always been people who argue with the trolls.  Isn’t this kind of like Aristotle talking about how lazy and disrespectful the teeneagers these days are?

Response:

I, too, have just come back after several years. I agree with your comments, to an extent. The main reason I left the first time (4 years ago) was the flamewars and trolls, so that hasn’t changed much. I thought there was more attention to on-topic info then. Also, my ADHD life (me and my son) was much more in upheaval – problems with school admin, medication changes etc. Now things are much calmer, so I notice the upset in the newsgroup a little bit more. I have always considered the alt. hierarchy as the "wild, wild  west" so, it comes with the territory. There may be less on-topic because the subject (ADHD) has matured a little bit in that time. Services seem to be more available (varies by location) and information is more plentiful. Everybody who has a kid in school knows someone’s kid who is on some sort of treatment plan. Even those that choose to homeschool now have more resources and acceptance (again, varies by location) that 5 years ago. As an example of maturity, there is much fewer flamewars concerning diet as the sole answer, or even about $cientology. It pops up, but not with the frequency or vitriol as it has in the past. Those are battles that still need to be fought, but are now down to the level of skirmishes. The personal attack flamewars are very disconcerting. My killfile is huge because I just don’t need that kind of drama. I probably miss some useful info because of my very excluding killfile, but that’s the only way to deal with this place at times. In the words for Dennis Miller, "Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong" Tom Boland

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It has been five years since I last posted on this ng and I realize that even then it was so rare that no one has missed me or noticed that I was no longer participating. Since that time there have been some changes (e.g. my last post was regarding whether or not children should take meds for ADD, now it seems to be which med is best) and some things that are the same (e.g. Joe Parsons – your frequency of posting has me concluding that you still don’t have a real job — Just kidding.) Having lurked here for the past week or so, there is something that I have noticed. At risk of being considered a troll, if you will indulge me a moment… While there is a bit of useful info floating around, and even some legitimate questions being raised, several people now seem to use this ng to meet the same needs supplied by daytime TV. IOW, it has become a soap opera! Follow any thread with more than 4 or 5 msgs and you will see what I mean: The same people start attacking the same other people over and over again. It seems that this has become such an enjoyable activity that rather than just ignoring someone’s inflammatory post, certain people have to respond just to keep it going. The drawback to this is that I seem to notice that there are much fewer people participating than there use to be. This ng was a place where quite a few parents or other adults came with questions about newly diagnosed ADD/ADHD. Go back in the archives to ‘97 – ‘98 and you will see what I mean. It was how we all learned about this disorder we were cursed/blessed with. Maybe it is because now there are so many sources of info that people don’t have to rely on the usenet any more, but then again, it might be because there is so much negativity here that people are turned off and go elsewhere – or are chased off. Is every question or comment now just an excuse to start a flame war???? Just an observation…. Richard

Response:

The drawback to this is that I seem to notice that there are much fewer people participating than there use to be. This ng was a place where quite a few parents or other adults came with questions about newly diagnosed ADD/ADHD. I don’t know.  I’ve heard about how much better ASAD used to be ever since I got here four years ago.  In my tenure there’ve always been trolls and there’ve always been people who argue with the trolls.  Isn’t this kind of like Aristotle talking about how lazy and disrespectful the teeneagers these days are?

My experience WRT the trolls and those who like to play with them has been the same. I’ve also been here for around 4 years, so I guess we arrived at or about the same time. It does seem to me, though, that the number of parents dropping in to ask questions really began to decrease when ASAD was deluged with all those particularly disgusting and abusive cross-posts from a poster who used several nyms–when was it? Two years? 18 months ago now? (I’m not going to check the archives, because I don’t want to be reminded of those sick posts.) That’s when I finally started using my killfiles and filters. And that was followed by the invasion and flooding of ASAD by the anti-ADHD and anti-med trolls last year (which lingers in ASAD to the present). Who could blame parents or other posters who were new to ASAD from avoiding the ng? The ng was filled with hundreds of garbage posts and vicious attacks and insults on new posters seeking support, as well as on the regulars. It was hard to sort through the foul trash to find supportive posts or those with good information. While things have improved somewhat, I don’t think ASAD has fully recovered yet. I have gone back from time to time and read archived posts that were made before my arrival in ASAD, and it does seem like there was a larger contingent of well-informed "regular" posters back then, as well as more posters who just dropped in to have some questions answered. One thing that I also found is that some things, like trolls and MLM marketers, appeared fairly early in ASAD’s history. I was surprised to see how far back there were posts pointing out that "ASAD is *not* alt.support.debate-whether-ADHD-is-real." Or complaining about spammers promoting their all-natural cures for ADHD. One thing that does seem new to me is that, with a few exceptions, the trolls didn’t seem to be so abusive to other posters then, so determined to smear other posters with libelous, ugly claims, or so hell-bent on destroying ASAD. On the whole, it seems to me that "once upon a time," the trolls seemed to be more entertaining. Or maybe we’ve just heard the same "ADHD isn’t real" or "Ritalin is evil, toxic and causes every known ill" for so long, it’s gotten really, really boring. Not to mention that some long-time trolls have been repeating old material. And that’s a real yawn too. Nancy Unique, like everyone else

Response:

It has been five years since I last posted on this ng and I realize snip<

I thank you for taking my comments seriously and for the updates re: this ng. I still see enough "good" stuff to stay around and add my two cents worth now and then. Thanks. Richard

Response:

Question:

  Yes U R right on once again Bobd EXCEPT! where you told poor Erica to use Pepperoni sticks? For yeast infections??/  Oh my Bobd I must call you on this one anybody who knows about natural cures would tell you that cayenne is the way to go.It is all in the book "Curing With Cayenne"  My son in law even found that my mother’s 90 yr old boyfriend was not joking about snorting it up the nose for Sinus problems now the young man uses it when even he has a sinus problem.Now I got to tell you I got a small bit of the stuff on my finger and took a sniff WOW did that wake me up! Don’t know how the boy does it?  For me I just take a 500 mg cap a day and it clears my sinus just fine.                              john

Response:

<johnc…@mindspring.com

wrote in message

news:3e672e2b.173734607@news.mindspring.com…

  Yes U R right on once again Bobd EXCEPT! where you told poor Erica to use Pepperoni sticks? For yeast infections??

Who said that they were to be taken orally? CW

Response:

Question:

Ray Armstrong <trav…@austarnet.com.au

wrote: If you have had a few CT scans ask the Dr to make sure your eyes are not included in the X-ray

Be interesting to see how they manage that in a CT of the paranasal sinuses! An old rule we learnt was to keep the number of CTs of the orbit to below 10 due to the danger of cataract formation. Nowdays with 1mm slicing the limit is 3 or 4, by my estimate.. dude2

Response:

On 6 Dec 2002 05:31:15 -0800, anna19…@yahoo.dk (Anna) wrote:

well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion?

Here in the U.S., a sinus CT scan is considered necessary for a proper diagnosis, by and large.  You appear to be in Denmark. Use of an endoscope, as your doctor did, is also very helpful. I suggest switching to an ENT who will order a sinus CT scan, if you are not making good progress with your current rhinologist. However, a CTscan does expose you to additional radiation, and you have recently had a brain CT scan, so that is a factor too, especially if you are going to need additional CT scans.   It comes down to a guess as to whether there might be significant undetected sinus abnormalities.  SInce you have ongoing problems, it seems to be there may be. Try to avoid irritants and potential allergens (even if no allergies were detected). Your nose needs to be moist inside. I like the idea of the steroid drops.   It is very hard to get the steroid far into the sinsues, which are at odd angles though small openings, so different techniques to accomplish that are good.

Response:

If you have had a few CT scans ask the Dr to make sure your eyes are not included in the X-ray — Kindest personal regards Ray The Travellin’ Man LET’S KEEP MUSIC LIVE!! "Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com

wrote in message

news:7bb5vuk7qlojmdoadr0fop5jbempuac9an@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

On 6 Dec 2002 05:31:15 -0800, anna19…@yahoo.dk (Anna) wrote: well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion? Here in the U.S., a sinus CT scan is considered necessary for a proper diagnosis, by and large.  You appear to be in Denmark. Use of an endoscope, as your doctor did, is also very helpful. I suggest switching to an ENT who will order a sinus CT scan, if you are

not

making good progress with your current rhinologist. However, a CTscan does expose you to additional radiation, and you have recently had a brain CT scan, so that is a factor too, especially if you

are

going to need additional CT scans. It comes down to a guess as to whether there might be significant

undetected

sinus abnormalities.  SInce you have ongoing problems, it seems to be

there may

be. Try to avoid irritants and potential allergens (even if no allergies were detected). Your nose needs to be moist inside. I like the idea of the steroid drops.   It is very hard to get the steroid

far

into the sinsues, which are at odd angles though small openings, so

different

techniques to accomplish that are good.

Response:

This begs the question of whether sinusitis is inflammation of sinuses or infection?  How about dryness?  Do you irrigate?  Have a humidifier running? anna19…@yahoo.dk  (Anna) wrote:

well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion?

Sue M.

Response:

my nose is completely dry. actually it’s never been as dry as now. also the post nasal dip went away by itself. now instead i have pressure behind my nose and sometimes over my eyes. it seems to change a lot during the day and is usually worse in the afternoons. saline solution seems to help as i use it, except it makes me really dizzy right afterwards. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -suemil…@aol.comnospam (Sue milham) wrote in message <news:20021206131220.10408.00007786@mb-mv.aol.com

… This begs the question of whether sinusitis is inflammation of sinuses or infection?  How about dryness?  Do you irrigate?  Have a humidifier running? anna19…@yahoo.dk  (Anna) wrote: well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion?  Sue M.

Response:

It sounds like the saline solution that is staying up there is putting more pressure to make you dizzy.  I’m having problems getting my infection fluid enuf to come out.  Maybe that’s your problem too?  Before I took the antibiotics, I got much worse just as evening came on and I found out everything was logjammed in there.  See if you can get something to thin the mucous.  Are you in Germany?  Don’t they use lots of herbs and natural cures there? anna19…@yahoo.dk  (Anna) wrote:

my nose is completely dry. actually it’s never been as dry as now. also the post nasal dip went away by itself. now instead i have pressure behind my nose and sometimes over my eyes. it seems to change a lot during the day and is usually worse in the afternoons. saline solution seems to help as i use it, except it makes me really dizzy right afterwards. suemil…@aol.comnospam (Sue milham) wrote in message

<news:20021206131220.10408.00007786@mb-mv.aol.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

This begs the question of whether sinusitis is inflammation of sinuses or infection?  How about dryness?  Do you irrigate?  Have a humidifier running? anna19…@yahoo.dk  (Anna) wrote: well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion?  Sue M.

Sue M.

Response:

hi, recently i did a cranial ct scan which showed nothing special in the brain. it also says that sinuses are normal. does this mean that a ct scan of the sinuses would be superfluous? thanks.

Response:

On 12/5/02 9:53 AM, in article 61939c8f.0212050653.5bd7d…@posting.google.com, "Anna" <anna19…@yahoo.dk

wrote:

hi, recently i did a cranial ct scan which showed nothing special in the brain. it also says that sinuses are normal. does this mean that a ct scan of the sinuses would be superfluous? thanks.

Generally speaking, a cranial CT is looking at soft tissue(brain primarily) within the head.  The scanner settings are not set to look at bone in a way we like to see it to evaluate sinus disease.  Also, brain CT’s are usually done only in the axial plane rather than in the coronal(face on) plane. Basically, the brain CT might miss subtle sinus abnormalities and less likely to miss gross disease. Michael Saylor MD(ENT)

Response:

well the ENT i went to said i didnt have sinusitis just by looking up my nose with a lamp and putting some huge needle up my nose. although i have pressure right at the sinus spots behind the nose and over the forehead as well as behind the eyes (mainly on one side) and ear air pressure imbalance but my nose isn’t clogged and i dont have a fever (even though i feel like it for over a week now). is this a good doctor or should i get a second opinion? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Michael Saylor <michael.say…@myactv.net

wrote in message <news:BA154BDB.3E39%michael.saylor@myactv.net… On 12/5/02 9:53 AM, in article 61939c8f.0212050653.5bd7d…@posting.google.com, "Anna" <anna19…@yahoo.dk wrote: hi, recently i did a cranial ct scan which showed nothing special in the brain. it also says that sinuses are normal. does this mean that a ct scan of the sinuses would be superfluous? thanks. Generally speaking, a cranial CT is looking at soft tissue(brain primarily) within the head.  The scanner settings are not set to look at bone in a way we like to see it to evaluate sinus disease.  Also, brain CT’s are usually done only in the axial plane rather than in the coronal(face on) plane. Basically, the brain CT might miss subtle sinus abnormalities and less likely to miss gross disease. Michael Saylor MD(ENT)

Response:

Question:

If these things were cures for diabetes or even gave great control, there would not be one person who would be diabetic onts planet  We all would have normal blood sugars. Testing once a day is not going to help prevent the onset of complications of diabetes  I test six to eight times a day so that I always know how many carbs I can handle for a meal.  How are you doing your food  what do you eat between one mornng and the next. You are not testing enoug h loretta In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

Response:

well from my google search, on "Kathy Head" she doesn’t seem too popular, since first topic was A Cheese Head And Her Journal … posted by Kathy 8:32 PM CT | Link Me, Baby! |. Well, I watched most of the gold medal hockey game today and if you’ve had your head in a hole, Canada won. … and no sign of Kathy Head, ND LOL though I’ve been wrong before — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org Current Troll List: barb/Chung/Roose

: : I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About : Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat : Diabetes and complications. : : The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of : Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. : : I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do : know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three : months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else : has tried these and what kind of results you have had. : : A little background on me: : : Age:  46 going on 47 : : Have diabetes since the age of 40 : I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. : My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. : : Meds and Supplements: : : Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) : HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) : Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) : Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) : Aspirin 325 mg once daily : Multivitamins with Lutein : Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily : Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily : Bilberry 80 mg once daily : Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily : : Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated. : : Thanks : : Bill : : :   1.  Folks that have tried them and reported on the newsgroups :     report that neither did any good. : :   2.  You really can’t tell unless you test at two hours after :       main meals : :   3.  Folks that are really serious about avoiding going blind, :  or otherwise causing severe pain or the like usually test more : often than once a day.  However, for what it’s worth, folks that :  only test once a day usually do so in some sort of rotating :  pattern, i.e. : :         day 1 at first wakening (fasting blood sugar) :         day 2 two hours after breakfast :         day 3 two hours after lunch :         day 4 two hours after dinner :         day 5 before bed : :   4.  Does Kathy Head N.D. have a web site or something.  From :  what you have posted, it sounds like she should be arrested : before she gets somebody killed. : :  Regards :   Old Al (A retired engineer who reads as much as possible about :   diabetes and gets really crabby when he runs into a possible :   sociopath who doesn’t care if they get diabetics killed)

Response:

IMHO, most "diabetic" suppliments are a waste of time and have no benefit except to line the pockets of those that mass produce them. Eating fresh veggies, fruits and berries are much more beneficial in the long run. I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117.

whats average? some days your 60 others 150? Whats your 2hr post prandal? Whats your latest A1C look like? Whats your meal plan contain? You need to be testing in most our opinions no less then 4x a day min. Most of us here advocate testing at these times. Waking before meals (while experiementing with foods) 2hrs after meals bedtime (check for dawn phenomenon) this allows you better management and control over your long term health and avoid nasty complications. Continue to post and ask questions, but please rethink your thoughts on all these "quick fix diabetic natural cures" because it just aint happenin’ — RK [T1 - dx 5/00]-[Lantus/Novolog] http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org Current Troll List: barb/Chung/Roose

: I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About : Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat : Diabetes and complications. : : The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of : Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. : : I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do : know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three : months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else : has tried these and what kind of results you have had. : : A little background on me: : : Age:  46 going on 47 : : Have diabetes since the age of 40 : I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. : My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. : My brother, and a least one of my sisters also have diabetes. : : Meds and Supplements: : : Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) : HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) : Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) : Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) : Aspirin 325 mg once daily : Multivitamins with Lutein : Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily : Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily : Bilberry 80 mg once daily : Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily : : Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated. : : Thanks : : Bill : : : : :

Response:

cc’d by email WELL, anyone who pays ANY attention to someone who is an "ND" has basic problems – ND is short for "QUACK" as for the improbable crap you take,   Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure)   HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) – there are others generally taken by diabetics – if you are going to a different doctor for BP, remind him or her that you are diabetic.  They MAY or may not suggest changes, they are the ones caring for you, and should know best, but sometimes a question or two can’t hurt.   Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) – OK   Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) – OK   Aspirin 325 mg once daily – probably OK   Multivitamins with Lutein – No reason, Eat FOOD to get vitamins   Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily – Why? how dumb can you be?   Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily – Take only if you are an idiot   Bilberry 80 mg once daily – This crap is merely worthless   Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily – this stuff is DANGEROUS!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat Diabetes and complications. The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else has tried these and what kind of results you have had. A little background on me: Age:  46 going on 47 Have diabetes since the age of 40 I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. My brother, and a least one of my sisters also have diabetes. Meds and Supplements: Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) Aspirin 325 mg once daily Multivitamins with Lutein Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily Bilberry 80 mg once daily Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated. Thanks Bill

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat Diabetes and complications. The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else has tried these and what kind of results you have had. A little background on me: Age:  46 going on 47 Have diabetes since the age of 40 I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. Meds and Supplements: Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) Aspirin 325 mg once daily Multivitamins with Lutein Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily Bilberry 80 mg once daily Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated. Thanks Bill

  1.  Folks that have tried them and reported on the newsgroups     report that neither did any good.   2.  You really can’t tell unless you test at two hours after       main meals   3.  Folks that are really serious about avoiding going blind,  or otherwise causing severe pain or the like usually test more often than once a day.  However, for what it’s worth, folks that  only test once a day usually do so in some sort of rotating  pattern, i.e.           day 1 at first wakening (fasting blood sugar)         day 2 two hours after breakfast         day 3 two hours after lunch         day 4 two hours after dinner         day 5 before bed   4.  Does Kathy Head N.D. have a web site or something.  From  what you have posted, it sounds like she should be arrested before she gets somebody killed.  Regards   Old Al (A retired engineer who reads as much as possible about   diabetes and gets really crabby when he runs into a possible   sociopath who doesn’t care if they get diabetics killed)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat Diabetes and complications. The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else has tried these and what kind of results you have had. A little background on me: Age:  46 going on 47 Have diabetes since the age of 40 I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. My brother, and a least one of my sisters also have diabetes. Meds and Supplements: Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) Aspirin 325 mg once daily Multivitamins with Lutein Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily Bilberry 80 mg once daily Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated.

From what I have read, chromium is a waste of time, and bilberry may have some beneficial effects.  I haven’t used either, but do eat blueberries regularly, which also are reputed to have beneficial nutrients for retinal health.   Also, in my opinion you are not testing enough.  A single morning test gives a very, very limited picture of what is happening with your bg levels during the rest of the day.  Most of us like to include at least some preprandial and two-hour post-prandial testing in our management plan.  Do you have an a1c test periodically? Lastly, I wonder about your activity level and your diet.  You are taking quite a few meds in combination with some "natural" remedies. The two most "natural" remedies that you can apply are modifications in diet and exercise, in my opinion. Richard

Response:

I recently purchased a book called Everything You Need to Know About Diabetes by Kathy Head, N.D. , that talks about natural remedies to treat Diabetes and complications. The book suggests to take 800 mcg of Chromium to lower BG , and 80 mg of Bilberry to help with complications with the eyes. I have been taking these two supplements for more then one month, and do know yet if they are having any effect.  I am going to try it for three months, then decide to keep taking it.  I would like to know if anybody else has tried these and what kind of results you have had. A little background on me: Age:  46 going on 47 Have diabetes since the age of 40 I test myself once a day before breakfast and averaging a BG of about 117. My Grandfather on my Dad’s side died from diabetes when my dad was thirteen. My brother, and a least one of my sisters also have diabetes. Meds and Supplements: Atacand 15 mg twice a day (blood Pressure) HCTZ 25 mg once a day (blood pressure) Actos 30 mg once a day (diabetes) Glyburide 5 mg two tablet twice daily (diabetes) Aspirin 325 mg once daily Multivitamins with Lutein Bee Pollen 550 mg twice daily Ginko Biloba 60 mg twice daily Bilberry 80 mg once daily Chromium Picolinate 800 mcg once daily Any suggestion or comments would greatly be appreciated. Thanks Bill

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Question:

Would anyone be willing to talk to me about their experiences with Prozac (good or bad) in the alleviation of PMS symptoms? I am writing a final year feature on the subject and would like to interview some people with first hand experience (anonymity granted if you prefer). Many thanks, Esm