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"Roman Bystrianyk" <rbystria…@gmail.com

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"Pillows can harbour harmful fungi", BBC News, October 14, 2005, Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4339306.stm A small thought to help you sleep when you next get your head down – a study shows the average pillow is home to a host of potentially-harmful fungi. A University of Manchester team found up to 16 types of fungi in pillows they analysed, the Allergy journal reported. Researchers said feather pillows had fewer species than synthetic versions, particularly in the case of a fungus which exacerbates asthma. Experts advise disinfecting pillows but say fungi occur in most environments. The researchers took samples from 10 pillows – five feather and five synthetic – which had been used for between 18 months and 20 years. The fungal spores found in the pillows fed off human skins scales and dust mite faeces. Fungal contamination of bedding was first uncovered by studies carried out in the 1930s, but few studies have been done since then. Researchers found that all 10 pillows had a "substantial fungal load" with between four to 16 different species being identified on each, Allergy reported on its website. The microscopic fungus Aspergillus fumigatus was particularly evident in synthetic pillows. This fungus commonly invades the lungs and sinuses and can worsen asthma. It is also known to cause infection in leukaemia and bone marrow transplant patients. The team also found pillows which contained fungi as diverse as bread and vine moulds. Some also had fungi which would usually be found on damp walls. Lead researcher Professor Ashley Woodcock said the findings showed there was a "miniature ecosystem" operating inside pillows. Sleeping He added: "Since people spend a third of their life sleeping and breathing close to a potentially large and varied source of fungi, these findings certainly have important implications for patients with respiratory disease – especially asthma and sinusitis." Dr Geoffrey Scott, chairman of the Fungal Research Trust, which funded the study, said the findings were interesting. "I think particularly for asthma patients this is relevant. These fungi are found in the environment, so we are exposed to them everywhere. "But I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home." A spokesperson for the charity Asthma UK said: "We are aware that patients at the severe end of the spectrum of asthma are more likely to be hypersensitive to fungi than others with asthma. "If you think that fungi could be a trigger for you, you should consult your GP or asthma nurse for advice."

Hello, Found this news source. ANI LONDON: The University of Manchester researchers revealed that there are millions of fungal spores right under our noses, harboured in pillows. According to a study, published in journal Allergy, the researchers dissected both feather and synthetic samples and identified several thousand spores of fungus per gram of used pillow. They studied samples from ten pillows with between 1.5 and 20 years of regular use. Aspergillus fumigatus, the species most commonly found in the pillows, is most likely to cause disease; and the resulting condition Aspergillosis has become the leading infectious cause of death in leukaemia and bone marrow transplant patients. Each pillow was found to contain a substantial fungal load, with four to 16 different species being identified per sample and even higher numbers found in synthetic pillows. The microscopic fungus Aspergillus fumigatus was particularly evident in synthetic pillows, and fungi as diverse as bread and vine moulds and those usually found on damp walls and in showers were also found. "We know that pillows are inhabited by the house dust mite which eats fungi, and one theory is that the fungi are in turn using the house dust mites’ faeces as a major source of nitrogen and nutrition. There could therefore be a ‘miniature ecosystem’ at work inside our pillows," said lead researcher Professor Ashley Woodcock. Aspergillus is very difficult to treat, and as many as 1 in 25 patients who die in modern European teaching hospitals have the disease. Immuno-compromised patients such as transplantation, AIDS and steroid treatment patients are also frequently affected with life-threatening Aspergillus pneumonia and sinusitis. Aspergillus can also worsen asthma, particularly in adults who have had asthma for many years, and cause allergic sinusitis in patients with allergic tendencies. Constant exposure to fungus in bed could be problematic. Fortunately, hospital pillows have plastic covers and so are unlikely to cause problems, but patients being discharged home – where pillows may be old and fungus-infected – could be at risk of infection. "These new findings are potentially of major significance to people with allergic diseases of the lungs and damaged immune systems – especially those being sent home from hospital," said Dr Geoffrey Scott, Chairman of the Fungal Research Trust which funded the study. Since patients spend a third of their life sleeping and breathing close to a potentially large and varied source of fungi, these findings certainly have important implications for patients with respiratory disease – especially asthma and sinusitis, the researchers conclude. take care. beamish.

Response:

In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow.

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On 10/17/05 2:20 PM, in article 1129584021.326189.27…@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "cardarch" <doro_i…@yahoo.com

wrote: In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow.

If you have allergies you shouldn’t buy a feather pillow. Plenty of good non allergic pillows are available.

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"cardarch" <doro_i…@yahoo.com

writes: In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow.

Are you absolutely positively sure that you aren’t allergic to down? I had a virulent allergy to it as a child. I thought the BBC article was pretty bogus actually.  Why wouldn’t feather pillows with cotton cases get fungi on them?  I can’t believe that the kapok filling of our cheap pillows gets moldy. — Alison Chaiken                  "From:" address above is valid. (650) 236-2231 [daytime]        http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/ Predators fail often; prey fail only once. — Tom Evslin

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To kill dust mites, my allergist recommends washing in hot water and using a dust mite laundry additive. May be these will work on molds as well? Also, buy an allergy dust mite cover for your pillows. I use these on my mattresses and pillows and I think they made a big difference to helping me to reduce my dust and dust mite allergy symptoms. They would probably work to keep any mold encased in the pillow. If you don’t mind bleach you could buy a pillow that you can wash in a very mild bleach solution (check the washing instructions tag to be sure).

Response:

On 10/17/05 2:20 PM, in article 1129584021.326189.27…@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "cardarch" <doro_i…@yahoo.com wrote: In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow.

I saw those article too – and wondered the same thing.  If the pillow is washable – I assume you wash it after soaking it in some water and bleach… but if it’s not washable…. ????

Response:

On 10/17/05 2:20 PM, in article 1129584021.326189.27…@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "cardarch" <doro_i…@yahoo.com wrote: In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow. If you have allergies you shouldn’t buy a feather pillow. Plenty of good non allergic pillows are available.

Why not?  According to the article, contrary to popular belief, synthetic pillows contain as many or more allergins… though I guess maybe it depends on what you’re allergic to.

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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:05:34 -0400, Susan <neverm…@nomail.com

wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

x-no-archive: yes Mars Observer wrote: On 10/17/05 2:20 PM, in article 1129584021.326189.27…@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com, "cardarch" <doro_i…@yahoo.com wrote: In the BBC article Dr Geoffrey Scott, of the Fungal Research Trust, said "I think it is still advisable to disinfect pillows and buy feather ones to help reduce the exposure in the home."  But he didn’t say how to disinfect pillows. I’d like to know.  I am going out to Ikea tomorrow and buy a feather pillow. I saw those article too – and wondered the same thing.  If the pillow is washable – I assume you wash it after soaking it in some water and bleach… but if it’s not washable…. ???? Before you buy a feather pillow, you may want to look into 100% natural latex.  And put an allergy barrier on whatever you get. Susan

I wash feather pillows all the time. I do so in a pillow protector, two pillows per load, so they do not get unbalanced. They go into the dryer on no heat for an hour or two with a sneaker bouncing around. I raise the heat gradually, until they are exposed to high heat for at least 20 minutes at the end. Remove the protector out of doors & fluff off the shed feathers. Boron

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Question:

In my case, asthma and PD started within months of each other. My daughter is a chronic asthmatic. I believe I have witnessed her have panic attacks. Meryl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Asthma and Panic Disorder Closely Related in Young Adults By Will Boggs, MD NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Jun 07 – Active asthma predicts subsequent panic disorder, and the presence of panic disorder predicts subsequent asthma activity, according to a new report. Given these findings, "We believe that a psychiatric evaluation in patients with chronic asthma is necessary to provide the best treatment possible," Dr. Gregor Hasler told Reuters Health. Dr. Hasler from the National Institute of Mental Health In Bethesda, Maryland, and colleagues investigated concurrent and longitudinal associations between asthma and panic in 591 young adults between ages 19 and 40 years, and report their results in the June issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. In the cross-sectional analysis, 20.9% of the subjects with asthma had panic disorder, the team found, and 32.6% had any kind of panic condition, which included panic disorder and panic attack. Similarly, 19.6% of individuals with panic disorder had asthma, and 11.6% of those with any panic had asthma. In longitudinal analyses, asthma was associated with a 4.5-fold increase in the risk of subsequent panic disorder, and the presence of panic disorder was associated with a 6.3-fold increase in the risk of subsequent asthma activity. Similar but less marked associations were also seen between asthma and the subsequent development of any panic, the researchers note, but any panic did not predict subsequent asthma. "An evaluation of panic and other anxiety symptoms, including avoidance symptoms, is necessary in asthma patients," Dr. Hasler said. "More research is needed to improve diagnostic precision and to evaluate anti-panic treatments in patients with the asthma-panic comorbidity." "I received some interesting e-mails from patients with asthma and possible comorbid panic in response to our paper," Dr. Hasler commented. "They found out themselves that breathing exercises, monitoring of respiratory symptoms, awareness of cognitive and emotional factors, reduction of caffeine consumption, and others helped them — all methods they were never told about by their physicians treating their asthma, but methods successfully used in the treatment of panic." He concluded, "This shows me that at least some asthma patients would be willing to get evaluated regarding emotional/psychological factors and symptoms and would accept specific treatments for them." Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2005;171:1224-1230.

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Asthma and Panic Disorder Closely Related in Young Adults By Will Boggs, MD NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Jun 07 – Active asthma predicts subsequent panic disorder, and the presence of panic disorder predicts subsequent asthma activity, according to a new report. Given these findings, "We believe that a psychiatric evaluation in patients with chronic asthma is necessary to provide the best treatment possible," Dr. Gregor Hasler told Reuters Health. Dr. Hasler from the National Institute of Mental Health In Bethesda, Maryland, and colleagues investigated concurrent and longitudinal associations between asthma and panic in 591 young adults between ages 19 and 40 years, and report their results in the June issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. In the cross-sectional analysis, 20.9% of the subjects with asthma had panic disorder, the team found, and 32.6% had any kind of panic condition, which included panic disorder and panic attack. Similarly, 19.6% of individuals with panic disorder had asthma, and 11.6% of those with any panic had asthma. In longitudinal analyses, asthma was associated with a 4.5-fold increase in the risk of subsequent panic disorder, and the presence of panic disorder was associated with a 6.3-fold increase in the risk of subsequent asthma activity. Similar but less marked associations were also seen between asthma and the subsequent development of any panic, the researchers note, but any panic did not predict subsequent asthma. "An evaluation of panic and other anxiety symptoms, including avoidance symptoms, is necessary in asthma patients," Dr. Hasler said. "More research is needed to improve diagnostic precision and to evaluate anti-panic treatments in patients with the asthma-panic comorbidity." "I received some interesting e-mails from patients with asthma and possible comorbid panic in response to our paper," Dr. Hasler commented. "They found out themselves that breathing exercises, monitoring of respiratory symptoms, awareness of cognitive and emotional factors, reduction of caffeine consumption, and others helped them — all methods they were never told about by their physicians treating their asthma, but methods successfully used in the treatment of panic." He concluded, "This shows me that at least some asthma patients would be willing to get evaluated regarding emotional/psychological factors and symptoms and would accept specific treatments for them." Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2005;171:1224-1230. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Question:

Don’t know that I’d take the risk. I retain co2,and have to be very careful with using supplementary o2,so I’m not sure what increasing my  already high co2 levels would do.I’m quite fond of living and breathing,I’ve even grown quite fond of my bipap,so I ‘d need to see a lot more research and positive results before I’d give it a go"DocVoodoo" <bjn…@hotmail.com

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Thats why you have Doctors to figure all that out in the Sleep Lab. They watch you and adjust and I am sure they are aware of the line that = Death You would then have a locking regulator on the CO2 bottle no way for it to get changed by chance.

Response:

The therapy program I use is designed to help folks who have lower than normal CO2 levels, like me.  I sure wouldn’t try it if my CO2 levels were abnormally high or even in the normal range. The process of raising the CO2 level is a long slow tedious one using slow breathing exercises that should only be done under the guidance of trained personnel.  Like you say, raising the level too quickly even through exercise can have deleterious side effects. By the way, the therapy that I use is also used by many people in New Zealand, Australia, Russia, and the UK as a non-drug or at least drug reduced control of asthma.  I

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Oh boy: What a splendid reply.It can`t be better than this. Thanks so much. Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm [...] "From the Absolute standpoint, your beingness is only ignorance." [...] http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm <snip The Feeling of What Happens      by Antonio Damasio Review by Jared C. Miller http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm Stuart Hameroff’s Home Page: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/index.html The Elegant Universe homepage http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ "The Religious Experience of Philip K. Dick" by R. Crumb      http://www.philipkdick.com/weirdo.htm THE POWER of NOW * by Eckhart Tolle http://www.eckharttolle.com/                 … It is finding your true nature beyond name and form. The inability to feel this connectedness gives rise to the illusion of separation, from yourself and from the world around you. You then perceive yourself, consciously or unconsciously, as an isolated fragment. Fear arises, and conflict within and without becomes the norm. …  – Eckhart Tolle  http://www.eckharttolle.com/ http://adidam.org/ Yes! There is no religion, no Way of God, no Way of Divine Realization, no Way of Enlightenment, and no Way of Liberation that is Higher or Greater than Truth Itself. …. Therefore, Reality (Itself) Is Truth, and Reality (Itself) Is the Only Truth. — Adi Da Samraj, a.k.a. "Bubba Free John",    a.k.a. "Da Free John", a.k.a. "Da Kalki",    a.k.a. "the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Love-Ananda Samraj",    a.k.a. "Franklin Jones"    http://adidam.org/    http://www.daplastique.com/home.html Let me share with you this little model I’ve worked out about who we are as human beings. I call it the "Three-Plane Consciousness Model." If I were to take a picture of who I see you to be, the picture would show three "I’s" —three different levels of who you are, planes on which you have an identity. Number One is what I call ego, that’s the "I" we all know very well, the plane of the body, mind, and personality; of all those things we think we are. Number Two I call the soul; the soul measures time not in days and years but in incarnations, and it’s the "I" that was around before we as egos were born and that will be around after we as egos die. And Number Three is … just Number Three. We all have different names for it, and wars are fought over what to call it, so I avoid all that by just calling it Number Three. I see our task as learning to live on more than one of those planes simultaneously, experiencing ourselves as egos and souls at the same time. And since "you gotta be one to see one," once we are resting in our souls, then we will see others as souls as well. Then when we look into another person’s we’ll say, "Are you in there? I’m in here. Far out!" When we are able to look behind even that identity as soul, we’ll see that we have still another identity because we are also Number Three. That’s the mystic "I," because in Number Three there’s actually only one of us. Your Number Three isn’t merely like my Number Three—They’re the same thing.  – Baba Ram Das, a.k.a. Richard Alpert     http://ramdasstapes.org/index.htm Committee for  Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal [ CSICON ] http://www.rawilson.com/csicon.shtml        < C O N T A C T <http://neu-ark.net/contact.html Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti (Born 9 July 1918) http://www.well.com/user/jct/mystiq1.htm THE MYSTIQUE OF ENLIGHTENMENT Part One [Excerpt] U.G. Krishnamurti People call me an ‘enlightened man’ — I detest that term — they can’t find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I’ve searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn’t arise. I don’t give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God. I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize — that’s the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize — and you say to yourself "What the hell have I been doing all my life?!" That blasts you. All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don’t want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn’t want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn’t exist; it is a myth. You wouldn’t want anything to do with this. UG: You see, I maintain that — I don’t know, whatever you call this; I don’t like to use the words ‘enlightenment,’ ‘freedom,’ ‘moksha’ or ‘liberation’; all these words are loaded words, they have a connotation of their own — this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens. And why it happens to one individual and not another, I don’t know. Questioner: So, it happened to you? UG: It happened to me. Q: When, Sir? UG: In my forty-ninth year. But whatever you do in the direction of whatever you are after — the pursuit or search for truth or reality — takes you away from your own very natural state, in which you always are. It’s not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a result of your effort — that is why I use the word ‘acausal’. It has no cause, but somehow the search come to an end. Q: You think, Sir, that it is not the result of the search? I ask because I have heard that you studied philosophy, that you were associated with religious people … UG: You see, the search takes you away from yourself — it is in the opposite direction — it has absolutely no relation. Q: In spite of it, it has happened, not because of it? UG: In spite of it — yes, that’s the word. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express itself. That is why I call this ‘your natural state’. You’re always in that state. What prevents what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the wrong direction, so all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that consciousness. You may not (Laughs) like the word ‘contamination’, but all that you consider sacred, holy and profound is a contamination. So, there’s nothing that you can do. It’s not in your hands. I don’t like to use the word ‘grace’, because if you use the word ‘grace’, the grace of whom? You are not a specially chosen individual; you deserve this, I don’t know why. If it were possible for me, I would be able to help somebody. This is something which I can’t give, because you have it. Why should I give it to you? It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which you already have. Q: But I don’t feel it, and you do. UG: No, it is not a question of feeling it, it is not a question of knowing it; you will never know. You have no way of knowing that at all for yourself; it begins to express itself. There is no conscious…. You see, I don’t know how to put it. Never does the thought that I am different from anybody come into my consciousness. [...] ((({<snip}))) Continued at: <http://www.well.com/user/jct/Mystique.htm The Archetype and the Beast ‘98 http://pw1.netcom.com/~mthorn/arcbeast.htm   [~][^][~] Disingenuous Demagogues Deteriorate Daily All Politicians are Demagogues, yet not all Demagogues are Politicians…  Sagittarius assimilated by OUR Milky Way:         "Resistence Is Futile!"  http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~mfs4n/sgr/ The Feeling of What Happens      by Antonio Damasio Review by Jared C. Miller http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm      Antonio Damasio does not claim to have solved the mystery of consciousness in his most recent bestseller, The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness. This is fortunate, because in many senses Damasio’s book does not provide much new information about consciousness and why its highest forms occur only in humans. Instead, Damasio combines a vast range of existing knowledge about the inner workings of the incredibly specialized human brain along with a fascinating look at cases of consciousness disorders due to brain damage he has witnessed in his laboratory to provide a new perspective on consciousness. The Feeling of What Happens is neither a survey of established knowledge in the field of consciousness nor a breakthrough discovery as to what really leads to the wonders of consciousness. However, Damasio’s book is valuable in its creative approaches to developing a new framework under which to

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm [...] "From the Absolute standpoint, your beingness is only ignorance." [...] http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm <snip The Feeling of What Happens      by Antonio Damasio Review by Jared C. Miller http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm

Stuart Hameroff’s Home Page: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/hameroff/index.html The Elegant Universe homepage http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ "The Religious Experience of Philip K. Dick" by R. Crumb      http://www.philipkdick.com/weirdo.htm THE POWER of NOW * by Eckhart Tolle http://www.eckharttolle.com/                 … It is finding your true nature beyond name and form. The inability to feel this connectedness gives rise to the illusion of separation, from yourself and from the world around you. You then perceive yourself, consciously or unconsciously, as an isolated fragment. Fear arises, and conflict within and without becomes the norm. …  – Eckhart Tolle  http://www.eckharttolle.com/

http://adidam.org/ Yes! There is no religion, no Way of God, no Way of Divine Realization, no Way of Enlightenment, and no Way of Liberation that is Higher or Greater than Truth Itself. …. Therefore, Reality (Itself) Is Truth, and Reality (Itself) Is the Only Truth. — Adi Da Samraj, a.k.a. "Bubba Free John",    a.k.a. "Da Free John", a.k.a. "Da Kalki",    a.k.a. "the Ruchira Avatar, Adi Da Love-Ananda Samraj",    a.k.a. "Franklin Jones"    http://adidam.org/    http://www.daplastique.com/home.html

Let me share with you this little model I’ve worked out about who we are as human beings. I call it the "Three-Plane Consciousness Model." If I were to take a picture of who I see you to be, the picture would show three "I’s" —three different levels of who you are, planes on which you have an identity. Number One is what I call ego, that’s the "I" we all know very well, the plane of the body, mind, and personality; of all those things we think we are. Number Two I call the soul; the soul measures time not in days and years but in incarnations, and it’s the "I" that was around before we as egos were born and that will be around after we as egos die. And Number Three is … just Number Three. We all have different names for it, and wars are fought over what to call it, so I avoid all that by just calling it Number Three. I see our task as learning to live on more than one of those planes simultaneously, experiencing ourselves as egos and souls at the same time. And since "you gotta be one to see one," once we are resting in our souls, then we will see others as souls as well. Then when we look into another person’s we’ll say, "Are you in there? I’m in here. Far out!" When we are able to look behind even that identity as soul, we’ll see that we have still another identity because we are also Number Three. That’s the mystic "I," because in Number Three there’s actually only one of us. Your Number Three isn’t merely like my Number Three—They’re the same thing.  – Baba Ram Das, a.k.a. Richard Alpert     http://ramdasstapes.org/index.htm Committee for  Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal [ CSICON ] http://www.rawilson.com/csicon.shtml        < C O N T A C T <http://neu-ark.net/contact.html Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti (Born 9 July 1918) http://www.well.com/user/jct/mystiq1.htm THE MYSTIQUE OF ENLIGHTENMENT Part One [Excerpt] U.G. Krishnamurti People call me an ‘enlightened man’ — I detest that term — they can’t find any other word to describe the way I am functioning. At the same time, I point out that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all. I say that because all my life I’ve searched and wanted to be an enlightened man, and I discovered that there is no such thing as enlightenment at all, and so the question whether a particular person is enlightened or not doesn’t arise. I don’t give a hoot for a sixth-century-BC Buddha, let alone all the other claimants we have in our midst. They are a bunch of exploiters, thriving on the gullibility of the people. There is no power outside of man. Man has created God out of fear. So the problem is fear and not God. I discovered for myself and by myself that there is no self to realize — that’s the realization I am talking about. It comes as a shattering blow. It hits you like a thunderbolt. You have invested everything in one basket, self-realization, and, in the end, suddenly you discover that there is no self to discover, no self to realize — and you say to yourself "What the hell have I been doing all my life?!" That blasts you. All kinds of things happened to me — I went through that, you see. The physical pain was unbearable — that is why I say you really don’t want this. I wish I could give you a glimpse of it, a touch of it — then you wouldn’t want to touch this at all. What you are pursuing doesn’t exist; it is a myth. You wouldn’t want anything to do with this. UG: You see, I maintain that — I don’t know, whatever you call this; I don’t like to use the words ‘enlightenment,’ ‘freedom,’ ‘moksha’ or ‘liberation’; all these words are loaded words, they have a connotation of their own — this cannot be brought about through any effort of yours; it just happens. And why it happens to one individual and not another, I don’t know. Questioner: So, it happened to you? UG: It happened to me. Q: When, Sir? UG: In my forty-ninth year. But whatever you do in the direction of whatever you are after — the pursuit or search for truth or reality — takes you away from your own very natural state, in which you always are. It’s not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a result of your effort — that is why I use the word ‘acausal’. It has no cause, but somehow the search come to an end. Q: You think, Sir, that it is not the result of the search? I ask because I have heard that you studied philosophy, that you were associated with religious people … UG: You see, the search takes you away from yourself — it is in the opposite direction — it has absolutely no relation. Q: In spite of it, it has happened, not because of it? UG: In spite of it — yes, that’s the word. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express itself. That is why I call this ‘your natural state’. You’re always in that state. What prevents what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the wrong direction, so all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that consciousness. You may not (Laughs) like the word ‘contamination’, but all that you consider sacred, holy and profound is a contamination. So, there’s nothing that you can do. It’s not in your hands. I don’t like to use the word ‘grace’, because if you use the word ‘grace’, the grace of whom? You are not a specially chosen individual; you deserve this, I don’t know why. If it were possible for me, I would be able to help somebody. This is something which I can’t give, because you have it. Why should I give it to you? It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which you already have. Q: But I don’t feel it, and you do. UG: No, it is not a question of feeling it, it is not a question of knowing it; you will never know. You have no way of knowing that at all for yourself; it begins to express itself. There is no conscious…. You see, I don’t know how to put it. Never does the thought that I am different from anybody come into my consciousness. [...] ((({<snip}))) Continued at: <http://www.well.com/user/jct/Mystique.htm The Archetype and the Beast ‘98 http://pw1.netcom.com/~mthorn/arcbeast.htm   [~][^][~] Disingenuous Demagogues Deteriorate Daily All Politicians are Demagogues, yet not all Demagogues are Politicians…  Sagittarius assimilated by OUR Milky Way:         "Resistence Is Futile!"  http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~mfs4n/sgr/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Feeling of What Happens      by Antonio Damasio Review by Jared C. Miller http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm      Antonio Damasio does not claim to have solved the mystery of consciousness in his most recent bestseller, The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness. This is fortunate, because in many senses Damasio’s book does not provide much new information about consciousness and why its highest forms occur only in humans. Instead, Damasio combines a vast range of existing knowledge about the inner workings of the incredibly specialized human brain along with a fascinating look at cases of consciousness disorders due to brain damage he has witnessed in his laboratory to provide a new perspective on consciousness. The Feeling of What Happens is neither a survey of established knowledge in the field of consciousness nor a breakthrough discovery as to what really leads to the wonders of consciousness. However, Damasio’s book is valuable in its creative approaches to developing a new framework under which to examine consciousness. Much of the reason we know so little about consciousness in comparison to other biological phenomena is that it is an intensely private event. Damasio admits that we cannot directly observe consciousness at work. However, his approach is to use the strong correlation between consciousness and behavior to glean insights into the biological foundation of consciousness. With our current scientific knowledge, the best way to examine how a particular section of the brain affects consciousness is to observe the behavioral defects that people with damage

… read more »

Response:

http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm [...] "From the Absolute standpoint, your beingness is only ignorance."

[...] http://www.atmapress.com/Nisargadatta/23_On_Death.htm <snip The Feeling of What Happens      by Antonio Damasio Review by Jared C. Miller http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm      Antonio Damasio does not claim to have solved the mystery of consciousness in his most recent bestseller, The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness. This is fortunate, because in many senses Damasio’s book does not provide much new information about consciousness and why its highest forms occur only in humans. Instead, Damasio combines a vast range of existing knowledge about the inner workings of the incredibly specialized human brain along with a fascinating look at cases of consciousness disorders due to brain damage he has witnessed in his laboratory to provide a new perspective on consciousness. The Feeling of What Happens is neither a survey of established knowledge in the field of consciousness nor a breakthrough discovery as to what really leads to the wonders of consciousness. However, Damasio’s book is valuable in its creative approaches to developing a new framework under which to examine consciousness. Much of the reason we know so little about consciousness in comparison to other biological phenomena is that it is an intensely private event. Damasio admits that we cannot directly observe consciousness at work. However, his approach is to use the strong correlation between consciousness and behavior to glean insights into the biological foundation of consciousness. With our current scientific knowledge, the best way to examine how a particular section of the brain affects consciousness is to observe the behavioral defects that people with damage to that section of the brain suffer. This is why Damasio spends a large portion of his book discussing the unfortunate plights of his patients. Simply put, the mysteries of the specialized human brain force us to work backwards: only when a particular part of the brain ceases to work can we learn its biological purpose. However, an even larger problem arises when we discover how particular types of brain damage result in behavioral and memory defects: what exactly does the vague term of consciousness refer to? This is where Damasio brings his original interpretations to the forefront. Deviating from the traditional views of Daniel Dennett and others, Damasio offers a much more inclusive definition of consciousness that goes beyond the view that only includes normal humans. Damasio breaks down the concept of consciousness — the relationship of an organism to the objects in its environment — into what he calls "core consciousness" and "extended consciousness." Core consciousness consists of the level of the individual’s alertness in interactions of the here and now. Damasio explains that this type of awareness about the environment is present in infants and nearly all nonhuman primates. By examining consciousness in this new light, Damasio has made the radical claim that animals are conscious beings, a view that has traditionally received little support. By contrast, extended consciousness, the type of awareness we normally attribute to humans, requires both memory of the past and anticipation of the future. Thus, according to Damasio, extended consciousness is the result of continued core consciousness and cannot exist without it. Damasio’s studies have shown that whereas core consciousness requires very little of the brain, full-blown extended consciousness employs a majority of the brain. Damasio’s argument that consciousness can be separated into simple and complex forms may seem arbitrary at first. However, his case presentations support the merits of the new foundation that he has developed to evaluate consciousness. He offers three types of examples from various patients that help the reader to understand when consciousness is present and when it is not. On one extreme, Damasio presents people in deep sleep (without REM) or in comas as examples of individuals with neither consciousness nor wakefulness. Next, and more interestingly, Damasio offers the case of epileptic automatism seizures as an occurrence in which the patient is awake but is without even core consciousness. Although the patient is clearly awake during the seizure, the individual’s actions seem completely random and unrelated to any aspect of the surrounding environment. Damasio explains that this behavior does not constitute consciousness. Last, Damasio describes the case of David, a patient with one of the most severe cases of global amnesia ever recorded. The damage to David’s brain is so extreme that he is not able to remember any new fact for more than a few seconds. From David’s point of view, every interaction with the environment takes place in a completely unfamiliar setting with unknown people. However, David is still able to interact with the here and now. According to Damasio, David has core consciousness but not extended consciousness. Although it is clear that David does not possess the type of consciousness of normal individuals, it is also obvious that David should still be considered a conscious being and is quite different from a person experiencing an epileptic automatism. The example of global amnesia makes Damasio’s distinction between core and extended consciousness much more clear-cut. Rather than simply providing an arbitrary judgement of consciousness as so many philosophers and neuroscientists have been prone to do, Damasio provides a set of tangible guidelines by which consciousness can be judged. The Feeling of What Happens ultimately manages to clarify a subject that has long been a scientific mystery plaguing even the most serious thinkers. However, this book is not a light read. Although Damasio’s anecdotes about his patients are fascinating, he often gets bogged down in technical descriptions of his theories that could be much more succinct than they are.  Damasio often bases his explanations around very specific sections of the brain and obscure neurological concepts without giving an adequate background. However, the reader who is able to make his way through these difficult sections will be rewarded with a new perspective on consciousness. Although The Feeling of What Happens may not be the best choice as a reader’s first exploration into the study of consciousness, Damasio’s original approach provides an extremely clear way of examining this extraordinary biological phenomenon. http://hcs.harvard.edu/~husn/BRAIN/vol7-spring2000/damasio.htm  Constraining the Topology of the Universe   http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310233         ~^~ "By the year 2025, Earth could lose as many as one fifth of all species known to exist today. In recent centuries, hundreds of species have disappeared, almost always as a result of human activities." http://www.worldwildlife.org/news/pubs/specieslist.html         ~^~ What our Dreams Tell Us Do our dreams give us messages from our bodies about health problems we may not be aware of? The ancient Greeks thought that dreams contained information that could be used to diagnose disease. With some diseases, specific dreams are more likely to occur; however, people who have the most severe cases of these diseases often say they don’t dream at all. Dr. Trisha Macnair <http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/profiles/trisha_macnair.shtml writes in <http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/features/dreams_illness.shtml that men with heart problems often dream about death and dying, while female heart patients dream of separation. Migraine sufferers have dreams containing extreme fears (perhaps because they fear the onset of another headache). People whose brain scans show signs of dementia or brain shrinkage often dream about losing something, especially money or food (ie. something essential). Victims of stroke, epilepsy or Parkinson’s disease have noted changes in the amount of time they spend dreaming and in the quality of their dreams, which have fewer visual images. They’re also less able to remember their dreams. People with high blood pressure have dreams filled with hostility (one of the causes of their problem?) Patients with narcolepsy, who find it hard to stay awake, dream about strange and frightening events. People under the influence of alcohol and drugs (including sedatives and antidepressants) have nightmares when the drugs are stopped. Asthma patients have very emotional dreams, perhaps because not being able to breathe is such an emotional experience. People with psychosomatic illnesses (who tend to "think" they’re sick when they

Question:

http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html

I have seen children like this. 4 yrs old and 140 lbs. He couldn’t breath well to start and then a virus sent him into life-threatening asthma attack and when you take the strain off the organs of a body like that, it will pretty much give up and say "sustain me for". It is a long rehab back to breathing on their own. I have seen the parents of these kids use food as a reward/punishment. I remember a birthday of the above child. He had breakfast, McDonalds, Lunch, McDonalds, Dinner, Birthday cake. this is all in a 12 hour shift that I saw.We have several Very Obese teenage asthma patients and I rarely see recommendations in their chart for them to lose weight! It just amazes me! Especially since my asthma is pretty much so mild now that I slid through my last flareup. a few days of nebs a dose or two of Prednisone and I’m right as dodgers. my hospital community is pretty small so people comment on my loss, etc and I tell them that my health is so much better too. — Lori 220/143/135 LC since 1/17/03 Nov Challenge 145/140 http://community.webshots.com/scripts/controlPanel.fcgi

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It’s incredibly sad anytime that someone thinks that making fun of overweight children deserves a laugh Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell.

~Karen~ 225/188/140ish start Jan17/03 Started at the gym September/03

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Hi krtyrrell, inspection: Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. It’s incredibly sad anytime that someone thinks that making fun of overweight children deserves a laugh

It does say "Send this to your creepy friends" on the page.  Someone appears to have misjudged Dean.  BTW, does anyone know for sure what country they’re in?  There were guesses of Thailand, but I’m not good with languages.  Just wondering… Take care, Carmen

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It does say "Send this to your creepy friends" on the page.  Someone appears to have misjudged Dean.  BTW, does anyone know for sure what country they’re in?  There were guesses of Thailand, but I’m not good with languages.  Just wondering…

The poster on the wall is in Thai. Liz 5′8"  215/171/135 lc started: Jul 9 ‘02

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form  of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these  children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. Of all the smut purveyed by boners.com–of which I’m a big fan–and all the mayhem on its sister site, rotten.com, this image was by far the most disturbing.  Just as a curiosity–did anyone notice that this is not an American McDonalds (look at the alphabet on the sign in the window)?  I think this sort of thing would have been reported to child protective here in the States. J

You wanna see some disturbing shi?  Go to strangeland.com. My DH were websurfing one night just playing around with dirty words and adding a dot com after it to see if there was a website for it and WHOA!!!! This nasty place showed up. I havent been back it was so raucious but I will never forget the web address as long as I live

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. I agree Dean. The pictures break my heart! Nancy       Those pictures are heartbreaking.  I wonder what the story behind them is?  Those kids look like they’re eating full size value meals.  What a shame that it’s come to this and the kids certainly can’t be blamed but whoever’s feeding them this can.  Very, very sad. Andrea

Awww poor kiddos. I think Mom and Dad are a few fries short the Happy Meal to be allowing them to eat like that.

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Yes, I did notice that this was taken someplace other than the US/any country where the Latin alphabet is used. The writing looks like Thai. Compare http://www.learningthai.com/mcdonalds.htm

Hmmm.  I didn’t see anything exactly the same as the same, but that could very well be!  Good sleuthwork! — Jean B.

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Yes, I did notice that this was taken someplace other than the US/any country where the Latin alphabet is used.

The writing looks like Thai. Compare http://www.learningthai.com/mcdonalds.htm — Bob Kanyak’s Doghouse http://kanyak.com

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Yes, I did notice that this was taken someplace other than the US/any country where the Latin alphabet is used. The writing looks like Thai. Compare http://www.learningthai.com/mcdonalds.htm

Whatever language it is do the parents not realize by just looking at thier child that they have a problem that needs addressing asap. Look at the edema in that boy’s arms!!  It is worse then my legs get. http://community.webshots.com/user/miss_jaime

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Of all the smut purveyed by boners.com–of which I’m a big fan–and all the mayhem on its sister site, rotten.com, this image was by far the most disturbing.  Just as a curiosity–did anyone notice that this is not an American McDonalds (look at the alphabet on the sign in the window)?  I think this sort of thing would have been reported to child protective here in the States.

Yes, I did notice that this was taken someplace other than the US/any country where the Latin alphabet is used.  But even if fat is perceived differently there, this would seem to be misguided. — Jean B.

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Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell.

I agree Dean. The pictures break my heart! Nancy

Response:

http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. I agree Dean. The pictures break my heart! Nancy

      Those pictures are heartbreaking.  I wonder what the story behind them is?  Those kids look like they’re eating full size value meals.  What a shame that it’s come to this and the kids certainly can’t be blamed but whoever’s feeding them this can.  Very, very sad. Andrea

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I agree.  It HURTS just to LOOK at that poor little boy.  To allow him to get to that size is downright CRIMINAL!

I agree Saffire. That boy is a walking time bomb for a heart attack at a very young age. http://community.webshots.com/user/miss_jaime

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Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell.

Of all the smut purveyed by boners.com–of which I’m a big fan–and all the mayhem on its sister site, rotten.com, this image was by far the most disturbing.  Just as a curiosity–did anyone notice that this is not an American McDonalds (look at the alphabet on the sign in the window)?  I think this sort of thing would have been reported to child protective here in the States. J

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Me either, and another one is that overweight kid on T.V. that is absolutley scarfing down everything in sight and using a Brawny Towel to clean up his face afterward. Who the heck thinks that is acceptable for a commercial? I definitely feel for the kids because of what they go through. — Cheri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. wow.  that is *so* depressing.  i don’t think it’s funny at all.

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says… Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell. wow.  that is *so* depressing.  i don’t think it’s funny at all.

I agree.  It HURTS just to LOOK at that poor little boy.  To allow him to get to that size is downright CRIMINAL! — Saffire 205/184/125 Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

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Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell.

Response:

Someone sent this to me thinking it was funny. In my opinion it is a form of child abuse when you consider the health damage being done to these children by allowing them to get so large. http://www.boners.com/grub/791112.html The kids are not eating Happy Meals; it looks to me like a supersize from the fry container. What are they, six or seven years old? It’s hard for me to tell.

wow.  that is *so* depressing.  i don’t think it’s funny at all.

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Question:

But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church. Yes they certainly seem to be free to choose. Knowledge is something you can use, belief is something that uses you. Belief in Science is no different than belief in the Easter Bunny.

Believing that there is no difference in science and the Easter bunny is the same thing as seeing pink elephants and little green men.

Response:

The other factor is the quality of the antioxidant taken. If it is low in bioavailability, measuring the input will not indicate levels required. Soemething of higher bioavailability will yield better results with less. For example, I read a Japanese study in which a 1000mg Vit C caps was compared to eating an apple, with typically 10mg Vit C. The measured result was the blood level of Vit C. The apple casued a greater increase in Vit C than the Vit C capsule. David

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before starting, I want to thank you for posting this research.  I’ll take this post to respectfully point out what I think are some "holes" in your argument. ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… If there’s no effect at 272 mg, which is over 4.5 times the US RDA, We can leave the US RDA out of this discussion.  Because the criteria is based on scurvy, not antioxident properties.  The RDA is the amount that in the average person will prevent the deficiency disease scurvy, plus 50% more. However, the Food and Nutrition Board (that calculates the RDAs for nutrients) make something clear in their official publication: the RDA is not the amount that provides optimal health. what makes you think an effect will show up at some higher dose?  At least there should be some small effect at 272 mg, right?  But there isn’t. This report only indicated that statistically significant increased effects were not measureable at these dosages by these researchers using this study’s protocols.  As is often the case in studies like this, there are limiting facotrs which can significantly dictate results.  I discuss the limiting factors in my conclusion. There’s no data to suggest an effect exists at higher doses, and in the absence of such data it’s just wishful thinking to believe there is such an effect. Maybe not for that population under those protocols.  There certainly is data that the body needs higher doses under different protocols. For example, see Int J Sport Nutr 1994 Sep;4(3):253-64 But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church. The researchers would not agree with your blanket conclusion that "antioxidant supplements are worthless".    They might say that "antioxidant supplements for healthy young men with low fruit and vegetable intakes don’t demonstrate reduced oxidative damage using our method for measuring oxidative damage." (Which is just to paraphrase what they actually said.) The limiting factors for this study are: 1.  young men. 2.  healthy 3.  specific population sample. 4.  Low fruit and vegetable intakes. Deviation outside of these bounds may significantly increase your need for antioxidant supplements.  For example, this could potentially include:  women, older population, ethnic population, illness, atheletes, etc. Regards, Thunder9 NOSPAM is antispam

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J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes.

[snip] ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C…

[snip] In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… Thunder9 NOSPAM is antispam

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<< Wrong.  You don’t understand the study.   And obviously you did not understand my post, as I typed it.

Obviously, Mark was correct.  You didn’t understand the study. Grow up Thorson…..you might think you are superior…but that’s your problem…you equal to everyone else.

Say that exact same thing in front of a mirror, subsituting Thorson with "Little Doobie". This is what I wrote.      Here, from Medline Plus is some information about Antioxidant Supplements being beneficial.  

Here is what the article said: "The findings suggest, the authors conclude, that boosting the antioxidant defenses of asthma patients could be "beneficial." " There is a suggestion that there could be a benefit to ASTHMA sufferers. Further study is needed to determine if that is indeed accurate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    http:/ /www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_11686.html

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<< Wrong.  You don’t understand the study.   And obviously you did not understand my post, as I typed it.  Grow up Thorson…..you might think you are superior…but that’s your problem…you equal to everyone else.

I was just pointing out that you were wrong in what you said. If you’d bothered to read the actual study abstract (and understand it, which might not have been possible for you), it was clear that the study DID NOT provide evidence that antioxidant supplements are beneficial. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is what I wrote.         Here, from Medline Plus is some information about Antioxidant Supplements being beneficial.

Response:

….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake…

If there’s no effect at 272 mg, which is over 4.5 times the US RDA, what makes you think an effect will show up at some higher dose?  At least there should be some small effect at 272 mg, right?  But there isn’t.  There’s no data to suggest an effect exists at higher doses, and in the absence of such data it’s just wishful thinking to believe there is such an effect. But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church.

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You call 31 milligrams of racemic vitamin e is moderate? What laugh. Racemic vitamin e has shorter biological half life than d-alpha E. I get twice that from my diet in weigh. Basically, they were giving one supplement, a moderate dose of C. The antioxidant defense system declines with age and advancing pathology. Folate greatest benefit is in the upkeep of DNA. And what was their usual diet?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. Jacob RA, Aiello GM, Stephensen CB, Blumberg JB, Milbury PE, Wallock LM, Ames BN. U.S. Department of Agriculture/ARS Western Human Nutrition Research Center, University of California at Davis, Davis, CA 95616-8683, Jean Mayer U.S. Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111 and Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute, Oakland, CA 94609. The link between high fruit/vegetable intake and reduced chronic disease may be partly explained by antioxidant protection. To determine the effect of moderate antioxidant intake on biomarkers of oxidant damage, we assessed in vivo lipid and protein oxidation in 77 healthy men whose typical diet contained few fruits and vegetables (mean of 2.6 servings/d). The 39 nonsmokers and 38 smokers, age 20- 51 y, were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C, 31 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol, and 400 micro g folic acid), or placebo, for 90 d with their usual diet. Blood and urine were taken at baseline and the end of the study for determination of lipid peroxidation products, including F(2)-total and 8-isoprostanes, and protein carbonyls. Urine thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) was the only oxidant damage marker that was significantly higher in smokers compared to nonsmokers (P < 0.05). Supplementation increased plasma ascorbate and tocopherol, but had no effect on the oxidant biomarkers. In healthy young men, the endogenous antioxidant defense system and a modest intake of dietary antioxidants are adequate to minimize levels of in vivo oxidant damage such that they cannot be differentiated by current methods.

Response:

But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church.

Yes they certainly are…

Response:

But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church.

Yes they certainly seem to be free to choose. Knowledge is something you can use, belief is something that uses you. Belief in Science is no different than belief in the Easter Bunny.

Response:

Before starting, I want to thank you for posting this research.  I’ll take this post to respectfully point out what I think are some "holes" in your argument. ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… If there’s no effect at 272 mg, which is over 4.5 times the US RDA,

We can leave the US RDA out of this discussion.  Because the criteria is based on scurvy, not antioxident properties.  The RDA is the amount that in the average person will prevent the deficiency disease scurvy, plus 50% more. However, the Food and Nutrition Board (that calculates the RDAs for nutrients) make something clear in their official publication: the RDA is not the amount that provides optimal health. what makes you think an effect will show up at some higher dose?  At least there should be some small effect at 272 mg, right?  But there isn’t.  

This report only indicated that statistically significant increased effects were not measureable at these dosages by these researchers using this study’s protocols.  As is often the case in studies like this, there are limiting facotrs which can significantly dictate results.  I discuss the limiting factors in my conclusion. There’s no data to suggest an effect exists at higher doses, and in the absence of such data it’s just wishful thinking to believe there is such an effect.

Maybe not for that population under those protocols.  There certainly is data that the body needs higher doses under different protocols. For example, see Int J Sport Nutr 1994 Sep;4(3):253-64 But if you want to believe, go right ahead.  People are free to choose their own church.

The researchers would not agree with your blanket conclusion that "antioxidant supplements are worthless".    They might say that "antioxidant supplements for healthy young men with low fruit and vegetable intakes don’t demonstrate reduced oxidative damage using our method for measuring oxidative damage." (Which is just to paraphrase what they actually said.) The limiting factors for this study are:         1.  young men.         2.  healthy         3.  specific population sample.         4.  Low fruit and vegetable intakes. Deviation outside of these bounds may significantly increase your need for antioxidant supplements.  For example, this could potentially include:  women, older population, ethnic population, illness, atheletes, etc. Regards, Thunder9 NOSPAM is antispam

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 … It would be interesting to know who funded this research. Who do you think would be interested in getting this result? The standard argument is that studies showing no benefit for vitamin supplementation are funded by the big pharmaceutical companies, who view vitamins as competitors to their drugs and want to suppress them because they wouldn’t be able to make money off of vitamins because they aren’t patentable.  There’s only one problem with this theory: the big pharmaceutical companies are the biggest manufacturers (as opposed to marketers) of vitamin supplements.

Thanks, Eric. I always find it amazing that your research institutions are looked on with such suspicion by so many in America. Sure, there is the rare "fixing" of results, but when the merde hits the ventilateur, the culprit loses all. I would have thought that as vitamins do nothing and drugs do a little, that it would be a lay down misere for the drugs, but I suppose the cash register talks loudest. In Australia, most of the good drugs are heavily subsidised by our health scheme. Vitamins are not. If a company gets its snout into the approved trough, who cares about vitamins? In USA, with a free-for-all on prices for everything, the drugs would certainly have much more competition from vitamins. Do Italy and Canada have cheaper vitamin prices? Moosh:)

Response:

There are many reasons why more of something could work when a moderate dose has no effect.  There could be limiting thresholds, or missing catalysts to name a few.  These people were already on low fruit diets, and it wasn’t a large population sample.

Occham’s Razor. Where are the missing catalysts (enzymes) going to come from when you supply several fold of this alpha tocopherol? Moosh:)

Response:

J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 … It would be interesting to know who funded this research. Who do you think would be interested in getting this result?

The standard argument is that studies showing no benefit for vitamin supplementation are funded by the big pharmaceutical companies, who view vitamins as competitors to their drugs and want to suppress them because they wouldn’t be able to make money off of vitamins because they aren’t patentable.  There’s only one problem with this theory: the big pharmaceutical companies are the biggest manufacturers (as opposed to marketers) of vitamin supplements.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. [snip] ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… [snip] In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… Typical response. Note that this attitude carries over to pesticide and fertiliser usage in the garden. If a cupful works, then a couple bucketsful will work wonders. Bugger the collateral damage (to coin a phrase Moosh:) Incorrect analogy Moosh.  This was not "if some works, then more will work better."  My response was "if some is not proven to work, then I will take more because some must not have been enough."   Why on Earth would you assume this? Why must more of something "work" when a more than moderate dose has no effect?

There are many reasons why more of something could work when a moderate dose has no effect.  There could be limiting thresholds, or missing catalysts to name a few.  These people were already on low fruit diets, and it wasn’t a large population sample. Thunder9 NOSPAM is antispam

Response:

J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 … It would be interesting to know who funded this research.

Who do you think would be interested in getting this result? Are you suggesting that: "U.S. Department of Agriculture/ARS Western Human Nutrition Research Center, University of California at Davis, Davis, CA 95616-8683, Jean Mayer U.S. Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111 and Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute, Oakland, CA 94609." can be bought? Moosh:)

Response:

The other factor is the quality of the antioxidant taken. If it is low in bioavailability, measuring the input will not indicate levels required.

Alpha tocopherol? Soemething of higher bioavailability will yield better results with less.

You’re joking  :) For example, I read a Japanese study in which a 1000mg Vit C caps was compared to eating an apple, with typically 10mg Vit C. The measured result was the blood level of Vit C. The apple casued a greater increase in Vit C than the Vit C capsule.

What was this study? Moosh:)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. [snip] ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… [snip] In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… Typical response. Note that this attitude carries over to pesticide and fertiliser usage in the garden. If a cupful works, then a couple bucketsful will work wonders. Bugger the collateral damage (to coin a phrase Moosh:) Incorrect analogy Moosh.  This was not "if some works, then more will work better."  My response was "if some is not proven to work, then I will take more because some must not have been enough."  

Why on Earth would you assume this? Why must more of something "work" when a more than moderate dose has no effect? Anyway, 20 odd international units of alpha tocopherol works fine. This was a subtle parody on the original posters extreme stance that "if a single study suggests that some doesn’t work, that proves that more will never be a good thing."

Have you heard of a dose-response curve? What’s this "single study" bit? That’s what much of the banter is on this group. If you show me your study, I’ll show you mine"   Moosh:)

Response:

J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 …

It would be interesting to know who funded this research. -a

Response:

You call 31 milligrams of racemic vitamin e is moderate?

Yep, according to three bottles of "extra large dose" supplements that I have with screws in. That’s about smack in the middle of the three doses. What laugh. Racemic vitamin e has shorter biological half life than d-alpha E.

What does that mean? You do know what racemic means don’t you? Do you mean the laevo-rotatory stereoisomer is denatured quicker? I get twice that from my diet in weigh.

In what?  The RDA of alpha tocopherol is 22 IU or 28 for lactating mothers. So a supplement of 46 IU is quite moderate. Moosh:)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. [snip] ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… [snip] In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake… Typical response. Note that this attitude carries over to pesticide and fertiliser usage in the garden. If a cupful works, then a couple bucketsful will work wonders. Bugger the collateral damage (to coin a phrase Moosh:)

Incorrect analogy Moosh.  This was not "if some works, then more will work better."  My response was "if some is not proven to work, then I will take more because some must not have been enough."  This was a subtle parody on the original posters extreme stance that "if a single study suggests that some doesn’t work, that proves that more will never be a good thing." Thunder9 NOSPAM is antispam

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. [snip] ….were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C… [snip] In other words, if you don’t take enough antioxidents, it won’t do you any good.  I’m upping my antioxident intake…

Typical response. Note that this attitude carries over to pesticide and fertiliser usage in the garden. If a cupful works, then a couple bucketsful will work wonders. Bugger the collateral damage (to coin a phrase Moosh:)

Response:

J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):740-743 Moderate Antioxidant Supplementation Has No Effect on Biomarkers of Oxidant Damage in Healthy Men with Low Fruit and Vegetable Intakes. Jacob RA, Aiello GM, Stephensen CB, Blumberg JB, Milbury PE, Wallock LM, Ames BN. U.S. Department of Agriculture/ARS Western Human Nutrition Research Center, University of California at Davis, Davis, CA 95616-8683, Jean Mayer U.S. Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111 and Children’s Hospital Oakland Research Institute, Oakland, CA 94609. The link between high fruit/vegetable intake and reduced chronic disease may be partly explained by antioxidant protection. To determine the effect of moderate antioxidant intake on biomarkers of oxidant damage, we assessed in vivo lipid and protein oxidation in 77 healthy men whose typical diet contained few fruits and vegetables (mean of 2.6 servings/d). The 39 nonsmokers and 38 smokers, age 20- 51 y, were given a daily supplement (272 mg vitamin C, 31 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol, and 400 micro g folic acid), or placebo, for 90 d with their usual diet. Blood and urine were taken at baseline and the end of the study for determination of lipid peroxidation products, including F(2)-total and 8-isoprostanes, and protein carbonyls. Urine thiobarbituric acid reactive substances (TBARS) was the only oxidant damage marker that was significantly higher in smokers compared to nonsmokers (P < 0.05). Supplementation increased plasma ascorbate and tocopherol, but had no effect on the oxidant biomarkers. In healthy young men, the endogenous antioxidant defense system and a modest intake of dietary antioxidants are adequate to minimize levels of in vivo oxidant damage such that they cannot be differentiated by current methods.

Response:

        Here, from Medline Plus is some information about Antioxidant Supplements being beneficial.           http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_11686.html           God Bless America.   "If you’re gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

Response:

        Here, from Medline Plus is some information about Antioxidant Supplements being beneficial.         http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_11686.html

Wrong.  You don’t understand the study.  The study did not look for and did not find any reduction in oxidant damage from using antioxidant supplements.  They found elevated markers of oxidative stress in asthma, but that’s all they found.  The authors do speculate that antioxidant supplementation may be helpful in asthma, but that’s pure speculation not backed up by any data. Here’s the abstract from the actual report: J Allergy Clin Immunol 2003 Jan;111(1):72-8 Increased oxidative stress and altered levels of antioxidants in asthma. Nadeem A, Chhabra SK, Masood A, Raj HG. Departments of Biochemistry, Cardiorespiratory Physiology, and Pharmacology, Vallabhbhai Patel Chest Institute, University of Delhi, Delhi. BACKGROUND: Reactive oxygen species might play an important role in the modulation of airway inflammation. There is evidence of an oxidant-antioxidant imbalance in asthma. Although several oxidants and antioxidants are likely to be involved, alterations in only limited parameters have been studied in isolation. OBJECTIVE: We investigated changes in a wide range of oxidants and antioxidants to create a comprehensive picture of oxidant-antioxidant imbalance. METHODS: In the peripheral blood of 38 patients with bronchial asthma and 23 control subjects, oxidative stress was measured in terms of superoxide anion generation by leukocytes, lipid peroxidation products, total nitrates and nitrites, total protein carbonyls, and total protein sulfhydrils in plasma. Antioxidant status was evaluated by measuring red blood cell superoxide dismutase and catalase activity, total blood glutathione, and glutathione peroxidase activity in red blood cells and leukocytes and total antioxidant capacity in plasma. RESULTS: Asthmatic patients showed increased superoxide generation from leukocytes, increased total nitrites and nitrates, increased protein carbonyls, and increased lipid peroxidation products and decreased protein sulfhydrils in plasma, indicating increased oxidative stress. They also showed increased superoxide dismutase activity in red blood cells and increased total blood glutathione and decreased glutathione peroxidase activity in red blood cells and leukocytes. Red blood cell catalase activity and the total antioxidant capacity of plasma were not altered. CONCLUSION:  There are alterations in a wide array of oxidants and antioxidants, with balance shifting toward increased oxidative stress in asthma. Therapeutic augmentation of the antioxidant defenses might be beneficial.

Response:

<< Wrong.  You don’t understand the study.   And obviously you did not understand my post, as I typed it.  Grow up Thorson…..you might think you are superior…but that’s your problem…you equal to everyone else. This is what I wrote.           Here, from Medline Plus is some information about Antioxidant Supplements being beneficial.           <A HREF="http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_11686.html"http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_11686.html</A           God Bless America.             God Bless America.   "If you’re gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

Response:

Question:

The caffeine and aspirin would not be my major worry with this pill. Not eating (and not eating one of the food groups, such as carbs or protein) will always cause weight loss, but it also causes permanent changes in the metabolism, making it harder for her to lose weight normally, and keep it off.   Ephedra is known to cause heart troubles.  Look up "phen-phen" on the CNN news website for some fairly objective reporting.  However, for short periods of time, it would probably be okay.  Not knowing what her situation is (how much weight she wants to lose and whether she’s ever had a heart attack), it’s hard to say if it’s safe for her or not.  And none of us (I think) are doctors. Pseudoephedrine is a synthetic form of ephedra  used in decongestants (look at your cold medicines) and it’s safer than pure ephedra.   But I’ve never heard of anyone using it for weight loss.  Not that I’m suggesting it, I’m just pointing out another form of a similar chemical that’s in common use. Incidentally, I don’t completely buy the "permanent changes in metabolism" line.  You can make your own changes in metabolism by doing endurance training exercise, which I think would undo the damage. Again, I’m not a doctor. That’s my .02!  -Ama – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hey guys, question for ya…anyone use that diet pill called Stackers 2? My friend just went on it and she lost 5 pounds in like 4 days…but she did so in the process of hardly eating. Now I don’t aprove of totaly not eating…but I guess this stuff made her not hungery so she ate just a small salad one day and the next day she did the same thing…I made her eat a burger the other night because she was so pale. But really what i’m asking is, do you think with a proper diet, these pills are safe? ~*GabyGirl*~

Response:

Stackers contains a mix of ephedra (a stimulant), caffeine, and aspirin, (ECA).  Stackers is very expensive, and you can buy better sources of the ECA mix.   By "better" I mean more strictly controlled ingredients.   For example, Stackers gets its aspirin from willow bark.  Why not just take aspirin? Don’t know anything about the effectiveness/safety, although I see lots of ephedra/ephedrine warnings on the internet.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys, question for ya…anyone use that diet pill called Stackers 2? My friend just went on it and she lost 5 pounds in like 4 days…but she did so in the process of hardly eating. Now I don’t aprove of totaly not eating…but I guess this stuff made her not hungery so she ate just a small salad one day and the next day she did the same thing…I made her eat a burger the other night because she was so pale. But really what i’m asking is, do you think with a proper diet, these pills are safe? ~*GabyGirl*~

Response:

They are probably safe for healthy people but they are generally not accepted as a part of weight loss plan for people with serious weight problems. I am confident that most of the weight your friend lost is water.  She will gain it back when she quits taking the pills or resumes even a half normal diet. However, if my weight problem were simply five pounds and I had a date next Friday in a tight dress, I might consider taking them for a week. As it is, I have a weight problem that requires lifestyle changes in order to maintain my weight loss and health. Anyone who is seriously overweight or is jeopardizing their health really needs to put lifestyle changes first.  Furthermore, seriously overweight people might do well by checking with their health care professionals before taking potent stimulants. j

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey guys, question for ya…anyone use that diet pill called Stackers 2? My friend just went on it and she lost 5 pounds in like 4 days…but she did so in the process of hardly eating. Now I don’t aprove of totaly not eating…but I guess this stuff made her not hungery so she ate just a small salad one day and the next day she did the same thing…I made her eat a burger the other night because she was so pale. But really what i’m asking is, do you think with a proper diet, these pills are safe? ~*GabyGirl*~

Response:

Hey guys, question for ya…anyone use that diet pill called Stackers 2? My friend just went on it and she lost 5 pounds in like 4 days…but she did so in the process of hardly eating. Now I don’t aprove of totaly not eating…but I guess this stuff made her not hungery so she ate just a small salad one day and the next day she did the same thing…I made her eat a burger the other night because she was so pale. But really what i’m asking is, do you think with a proper diet, these pills are safe? ~*GabyGirl*~

Response:

Uh, that is difficult to answer.  I am not a pharmacist nor an MD. Rather, I am a nurse who has worked extensively with cath lab patients who were often referred to determine if valve problems existed related to fen-phen. Phentermine, the ‘Phen’ component of the cocktail is most closely related to ephedrine.  However, Phentermine has been on the market for like a zillion years.  In and of itself, there has never been any link to the cardiac problems experienced by the Fen-Phen folks. Furthermore, Ephedra, right or wrong has been available over the counter for many years mainly as a bronchodialor for asthma patients.  It is rather amusing that the first time I heard of it being used for weight loss was when a supervisor at Pennington Biomedical Center used it.  It is an old drug and there are many reports of adverse events but none that I am aware of similar to those caused by the cocktail. So, in order to increase the ambiguity of my post, please be aware that I am a nurse.  I read extensively about drugs, etc. as I work as a clinical consultant.  Please be aware that I am not a pharmacist or an MD.  I am fully aware that there is information to which I am not privy. Meanwhile, to the best of my research, ephedra is not a benign drug for those with pre-existing heart disease or risk factors of cardiac disease.  I do not believe, based on my research that the adverse effects reported related to ephedra are similar to those reported by the Fen-Phen crowd. As far as safety and efficacy, it most likely depends on the person.  Normal healthy people should do fine but those with extensive risk factors would definitely want to consult a health care professional! j

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Fen-phen is a combination of phentermine and phenfloramine that did cause heart problems. The mechanism in that case was a thickening of the valves which ultimately can cause primary pulmonary hypertension or just plain heart failure.  The effects of ephedra on the heart have to do with raising the overall heart rate.  In an irritable or grossly underconditioned heart, this could also cause problems but not like the ones used in the fen-phen combo cocktail. Thanks for clearing that up.  Is there any relationship at all between fen-phen and ephedra?  I was told by someone I trust that the combo of chemicals in fen-phen  is ephedra-derived.  Was she wrong? -Ama

Response:

Fen-phen is a combination of phentermine and phenfloramine that did cause heart problems. The mechanism in that case was a thickening of the valves which ultimately can cause primary pulmonary hypertension or just plain heart failure.  The effects of ephedra on the heart have to do with raising the overall heart rate.  In an irritable or grossly underconditioned heart, this could also cause problems but not like the ones used in the fen-phen combo cocktail.

Thanks for clearing that up.  Is there any relationship at all between fen-phen and ephedra?  I was told by someone I trust that the combo of chemicals in fen-phen  is ephedra-derived.  Was she wrong? -Ama

Response:

Fen-phen is a combination of phentermine and phenfloramine that did cause heart problems. The mechanism in that case was a thickening of the valves which ultimately can cause primary pulmonary hypertension or just plain heart failure.  The effects of ephedra on the heart have to do with raising the overall heart rate.  In an irritable or grossly underconditioned heart, this could also cause problems but not like the ones used in the fen-phen combo cocktail. Psudoephedrine, the ingredient in most decongestants that advertise they do not cause drowsiness is similar to ephedrine.  I have never read of any significant appetite suppressant activities related to it, though.  It is also contraindicated in patients with existing blood pressure problems or some cardiac problems.  It is also clearly unsafe for folks taking some kinds of antidepressants.  In doing some research lately for one of my clients, I ran across federal guidelines regulating the overall amount of psudoephedrine that can be sold in one package at one time but I suspect that is related to the fact that it is used in methamphetamine manufacturing.  However, to state that it is significantly safer than ephedrine would be misleading.  Rather the dosages used for decongestant purposes are significantly smaller. j

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The caffeine and aspirin would not be my major worry with this pill. Not eating (and not eating one of the food groups, such as carbs or protein) will always cause weight loss, but it also causes permanent changes in the metabolism, making it harder for her to lose weight normally, and keep it off. Ephedra is known to cause heart troubles.  Look up "phen-phen" on the CNN news website for some fairly objective reporting.  However, for short periods of time, it would probably be okay.  Not knowing what her situation is (how much weight she wants to lose and whether she’s ever had a heart attack), it’s hard to say if it’s safe for her or not.  And none of us (I think) are doctors. Pseudoephedrine is a synthetic form of ephedra  used in decongestants (look at your cold medicines) and it’s safer than pure ephedra.   But I’ve never heard of anyone using it for weight loss.  Not that I’m suggesting it, I’m just pointing out another form of a similar chemical that’s in common use. Incidentally, I don’t completely buy the "permanent changes in metabolism" line.  You can make your own changes in metabolism by doing endurance training exercise, which I think would undo the damage. Again, I’m not a doctor. That’s my .02!  -Ama Hey guys, question for ya…anyone use that diet pill called Stackers 2? My friend just went on it and she lost 5 pounds in like 4 days…but she did so in the process of hardly eating. Now I don’t aprove of totaly not eating…but I guess this stuff made her not hungery so she ate just a small salad one day and the next day she did the same thing…I made her eat a burger the other night because she was so pale. But really what i’m asking is, do you think with a proper diet, these pills are safe? ~*GabyGirl*~

Response:

Thanks for clearing that up.  Is there any relationship at all between fen-phen and ephedra?  I was told by someone I trust that the combo of chemicals in fen-phen  is ephedra-derived.  Was she wrong?

There *were* some herbal combos of ephedra and St John’s Wort being sold, that were called "herbal fen-phen," but had no relation to actual fen-phen. Ephedra alkaloids are closely related to Primatene asthma tablets (ephedrine) and more loosely related to Sudafed decongestant (pseudoephedrine). —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Question:

"Samuel Herschbein" <s…@nospam.oz.net.nospam

wrote in message

news:samh-318C16.18413017122002@netnews.attbi.com…

I probably violating the NYT’s copyright…

I don’t think so. It’s done all the time in newsgroups, reprinting articles from online periodicals. Thank you for doing so, I didn’t feel like "registering" for the NYT. The article doesn’t really say anything that regular readers here already don’t know. In fact, I suspect that the author had been reading this NG, otherwise–why would she write about xylitol up the nose? The only places where that has been advocated is the web site of the doc in Texas who sells his saline with xylitol at an inflated price, and the guy who was pushing it here for months. The Mayo Clinic investigations are indeed interesting. (There has been much about it here before, however.) I just wish they would come out with a better treatment for it, actually trying to deal with the immune system’s over-reaction to the fungi. Their present treatment, having the patients irrigate with fungicide, has a lot of negatives.

Response:

Ah ! – found it myself – her name is all over the web. "John" <j…@perfsoft.uk.net

wrote in message

news:atsgs2$fj2$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you have her e-mail address now ? > Sounds like she has hit the nail on the head. > "Ray Killeen" <ray_kill…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

> news:4338b7f2.0212181252.4e07ac5b@posting.google.com… > > Samuel Herschbein <s…@nospam.oz.net.nospam

wrote in message

> <news:samh-318C16.18413017122002@netnews.attbi.com>… > > > I probably violating the NYT’s copyright… > ———————————————————————– > > > Doctors Rethinking Treatments for Sick Sinuses > > > By GABRIELLE GLASER > > I know Gabrielle, following my ESS when I lost my sense of smell > > someone gave me her email address because they knew the same thing > > happen to her. Turns out she spontaneously regained her smell about > > two years after her surgery. She’s the only hope I have, each time I > > feel like pulling the trigger I think of her and hope the same may > > happen for me. Last I talked to her she was writing a book on sinuses. > > Those damn surgeons all they want to do it cut you!

Response:

Do you have her e-mail address now ? Sounds like she has hit the nail on the head. "Ray Killeen" <ray_kill…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:4338b7f2.0212181252.4e07ac5b@posting.google.com… > Samuel Herschbein <s…@nospam.oz.net.nospam

wrote in message

<news:samh-318C16.18413017122002@netnews.attbi.com

…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I probably violating the NYT’s copyright… ———————————————————————– Doctors Rethinking Treatments for Sick Sinuses By GABRIELLE GLASER I know Gabrielle, following my ESS when I lost my sense of smell someone gave me her email address because they knew the same thing happen to her. Turns out she spontaneously regained her smell about two years after her surgery. She’s the only hope I have, each time I feel like pulling the trigger I think of her and hope the same may happen for me. Last I talked to her she was writing a book on sinuses. Those damn surgeons all they want to do it cut you!

Response:

Samuel Herschbein <s…@nospam.oz.net.nospam

wrote in message <news:samh-318C16.18413017122002@netnews.attbi.com… I probably violating the NYT’s copyright… ———————————————————————– Doctors Rethinking Treatments for Sick Sinuses By GABRIELLE GLASER

I know Gabrielle, following my ESS when I lost my sense of smell someone gave me her email address because they knew the same thing happen to her. Turns out she spontaneously regained her smell about two years after her surgery. She’s the only hope I have, each time I feel like pulling the trigger I think of her and hope the same may happen for me. Last I talked to her she was writing a book on sinuses. Those damn surgeons all they want to do it cut you!

Response:

On 17 Dec 2002 16:44:52 GMT, entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote:

Couldn’t open the NY Times article. Can you give us the information? Or send the address again? Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

The following address may avoid the need for an account: http://partners.nytimes.com/2002/12/17/health/anatomy/17SINU.html?8bhp

Response:

On 17 Dec 2002 16:44:52 GMT, entcons…@aol.com (ENTconsult) wrote:

Couldn’t open the NY Times article. Can you give us the information? Or send the address again?

Sent it via email to your address. Here is the link again but I think you must register to use NYT on the web. It’s free but you still have to jump through the hoops. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/17/health/anatomy/17SINU.html — avid

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I probably violating the NYT’s copyright… ———————————————————————– Doctors Rethinking Treatments for Sick Sinuses By GABRIELLE GLASER Over the last 10 years, many doctors have become convinced that the answer to chronic sinusitis, which afflicts millions and costs the United States an estimated $6 billion a year, could be successfully treated with surgery. The introduction of fiber optic surgery, involving tiny scopes with cameras attached to a monitor, has become common, giving doctors access to the cramped, convoluted sinus passageways. Before the new technique was developed, doctors cut through the roof of the mouth or made incisions in the eyebrows to clear away scarred tissue or polyps. Advertisement Many physicians said they thought the new tools could help cure the disease. But now, as many of those who have had the procedure return to their doctors’ offices sick once again, the early hopes for surgery have been dashed. Researchers are shifting their focus to inflammation and the immune system. "The medical community thought endoscopic surgery was the be-all and end-all," said Dr. Michael S. Benninger, chairman of the otolaryngology department at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. "Surgery still has a role for some problems. But it’s certainly not the solution for everyone." Dr. John H. Krouse, a professor and the director of rhinology and otolaryngic allergy at the Wayne State University School of Medicine in Detroit, agreed. For years, Dr. Krouse said, ear, nose, and throat surgeons were puzzled when patients returned to their offices just months or weeks after having surgery. Some patients had six operations, Dr. Krouse said. Physicians, he added, began asking, "What are we doing?" and "What exactly are we treating?" The disillusionment with surgery occurs as recognition is increasing that other common remedies for chronic sinus disease like antibiotics, steroids, antihistamines and decongestants also are falling short of expectations. Researchers say they are beginning to suspect that they have to rethink the underlying causes. Instead of allergies and infections, long considered the primary culprits, doctors are asking why sinuses become sick in the first place. Increasingly, they are looking at inflammation or the responses of the immune system. At this point, researchers are struggling even to define sinusitis, which affects an estimated 37 million Americans, or 13 percent of the population. The symptoms include repeated infections, persistent congestion, headaches, facial pain and malaise that can last for years. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, chronic sinusitis is the most common long-term illness in the United States, affecting more Americans than asthma, arthritis and congestive heart disease. It strikes women more than men and is most common in the Southeast. Sinusitis is also expensive and time consuming. It is responsible for nearly 14 million visits a year to doctors’ offices, according to the National Institute for Allergy and Infectious Diseases. The sinuses, hollow spaces surrounding the nose like grape clusters, are something of a mystery. Anthropologists theorize that they originated from evolution, allowing the head to be held upright. They also warm, cool and humidify air entering the lungs, equalize barometric pressure and provide resonance for the voice. Each sinus has a duct no bigger than the lead of a pencil for the free exchange of air and mucus and is joined with the nasal passages by a continuous mucous membrane that, when healthy, resembles the lining of the inside of the mouth. The membrane produces a pint to a quart of mucus a day, which is flushed out of the sinuses by tiny cilia, or hairlike filaments. They help pass pollen, bacteria and viruses from the nose to the back of the throat, where they are swallowed and then dissolved by stomach acids. For reasons that are not entirely clear, the sinuses of people with chronic sinusitis are often mottled with inflammation. The ducts swell, trapping mucus, viruses and bacteria inside. The dark moist hollows become ideal breeding grounds for infection. Frequently, the chronic swelling and infections cause polyps.  "No one is really sure what sets off the cascade of inflammation that makes some people sick," Dr. Krouse said. "We don’t know why some respond to one treatment while others don’t or why some symptoms bother some patients to distraction but are not noticeable to others. We are struggling to make sense of it. We’re not even sure what this disease really is." Advertisement For years, doctors expanded the sinus openings with surgery, stripped away membranes and removed bony structures, known as turbinates, which are responsible for humidifying inspired air. Sometimes, the procedures created more problems than they solved. Turbinates, it turns out, are essential to the health of the chambers and are primary defenders against disease. Still, some problems like polyps or anatomical blockages may call for surgery. Surgeons are finding that when procedures are necessary, a less aggressive approach often yields better results than the radical designing of the sinuses that was done in years past. Nonsurgical treatments have included oral and intravenous antibiotics, antihistamines and decongestants, as well as oral and topical steroids. Steroids work to calm inflammation, and some doctors find them effective. Often the only relief many patients receive is from prednisone, a powerful steroid. "We began to see that we were not going to solve this puzzle with a better antibiotic, or a better procedure," Dr. Krouse said. "That points to inflammatory and immunologic processes, not surgical or infectious ones." Researchers at the Mayo Clinic achieved a breakthrough in 1999, when they found that some inflammation was caused by an immune response to fungi in the nose. Patients and control subjects had many different species of fungi in the nose. But just those with chronic sinusitis have white blood cells, known as eosinophils, that are activated by the immune system, the researchers found. Led by Dr. Jens Ponikau, they discovered that the immune system sends eosinophils to attack fungi. The eosinophils release a protein that irritates the membranes in the nose. The irritation remains as long as the fungi are present. A paper on their findings will be published in a peer-reviewed journal next month. The Mayo team is treating patients with antifungal solutions. Clinical trials are continuing, and patients who have been treated have given encouraging reports. "But we have to settle in for the long haul," Dr. Ponikau said. "It’s a paradigm shift, a different way of looking at the disease." Some doctors have succeeded with a class of asthma drug called leukotriene receptor antagonists. They works by blocking leukotrienes, substances that the immune system secretes in asthma and allergy attacks and that inflame the respiratory tract. Patients with sinus disease often have asthma, as well. "Asthma patients who used these drugs found that their sinus symptoms were eased,," said Dr. Michael Setzen, who has a practice in Manhasset, N.Y., and is an assistant clinical professor of otolaryngology at the New York University School of Medicine. "If it works, patients know it right away." An asthma medication, Singulair, the trade name for montelukast, is awaiting approval from the Food and Drug Administration for allergy symptoms. Many doctors, however, prescribe it for sinus problems. Dr. Alexander C. Chester, an internist in Washington, treats hundreds of patients with sinusitis. He recommends cutting dairy products from the diet. Eliminating milk was popular advice some years ago, but lost currency because the benefits could not be verified, Dr. Chester said. In 10 percent of his patients, he said, eliminating milk products substantially improves sinusitis and all its symptoms. It is possible that less milk means less mucus, but researchers are unsure exactly why reducing milk in the diet is effective. Dr. Chester and other experts also urge common sense. Patients with sinusitis should be evaluated for anatomical obstructions (in those cases, surgery can help), allergies and strength of the immune system, Dr. Krouse said, adding, "We need as much information on a patient-by-patient basis as we can get." Dr. Benninger of Detroit asks patients to complete a questionnaire about physical, emotional and social difficulties. Routinely, patients report high levels of fatigue, depression and sexual dysfunction. "This disease is so much more than just its symptoms," he said. Many doctors encourage patients to avoid wine and beer, which can cause passageways to swell. Smoking and tobacco smoke should also be avoided. The doctors agree that patients should exercise, drink enough water and irrigate their noses with a homemade saline solution. Many over-the-counter solutions have a preservative, benzalkonium chloride, that can be irritating and may paralyze cilia. Some doctors also find promise in an over-the-counter nasal saline spray made with xylitol, a natural sweetener used in chewing gum and mints since the 1960’s. Xylitol is also produced in small amounts in the human body in normal metabolism. A recent study in Finland found that xylitol, a natural antimicrobial, was effective in reducing the ability of common respiratory bacteria, including Streptococcus pneumoniae and Hemophilus influenzae, to adhere to the mucous membrane. The doctors who treat patients with chronic sinusitis are frustrated, too. "We’re not even close to having all the answers," Dr. Setzen said. "Our big hope is that we can help these people who are nasal cripples. A functioning nose is essential to the quality of one’s life." — … read more »

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Couldn’t open the NY Times article. Can you give us the information? Or send the address again? Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

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Question:

Hi everyone I am a new user, and just want to find out more about this newsgroup. 1) who uses the newsgroup (patient and health care professional only?) 2) validity and reliablity of the disscusion in general Please feel free to provide any input Thanks Nathan

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Hi everyone I am a new user, and just want to find out more about this newsgroup. 1) who uses the newsgroup (patient and health care professional only?) 2) validity and reliablity of the disscusion in general Please feel free to provide any input Thanks Nathan

Hi Nathan, This group is used by everyone from asthma patients to Doctors to scam artists trying to make a quick buck to total loonies <grin… but mostly it’s used by some pretty good people. The best way to judge the validity and reliability of the discussions, questions and answers here is to sort of sit back and read things from the various people here for a week or so. You’ll pick up on who can be relied on and who can’t fairly fast. As sort of a heads up, I have found just about anything posted here by CBI or Colin Campbell can be solidly relied on. There are many others as well. You will find us a contentious bunch much of the time with a fairly low tolerance for people trying to sell us miracle cures. If you have any specific questions, feel free to post them… just indicate that you are new to the group in the message. You are less likely to get a bad or biased answer that way. The bottom line is that this is a peer to peer support group for people with asthma (or family members with asthma). We try to help each other deal with the problem we have in common. The biggest caveat for what you read here is that what works for one of us often may not work for someone else. We also tend to suggest that you always check with your doctor before following any advice you may get here. Dan Rhea "Loyalty is for family, friends and country, not operating systems, compilers and computers"   – Dan Rhea, 1986

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Hi everyone I am a new user, and just want to find out more about this newsgroup. 1) who uses the newsgroup (patient and health care professional only?)

both…a few relatives of asthmatics and the inevitable horde of parasites trying to sell snake oil 2) validity and reliablity of the disscusion in general

variable…but includes some superbly informative posts, some excellent debates, a wide range of experience, and a fair bit of humour — eric www.ericjarvis.co.uk "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

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Hi everyone I am a new user, and just want to find out more about this newsgroup. 1) who uses the newsgroup (patient and health care professional only?)

Most of the people here are either asthmatics themselves or care givers for asthmatics.  We also have a few MDs. We also have the typical plague of those who want to get at the contents of your wallet by promising false hope. 2) validity and reliablity of the disscusion in general

As along as you ignore the people out to sell stuff or pushing ‘way out there’ medical theories, you can expect to get pretty reasonable advice. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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Hi everyone I am a new user, and just want to find out more about this newsgroup. 1) who uses the newsgroup (patient and health care professional only?)

Both but mostly patients. 2) validity and reliablity of the disscusion in general

This is Usenet – what do you expect?  You have to read stuff posted here carefully and make your own mind up. Please feel free to provide any input Thanks Nathan

– Five Cats

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I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

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welcome to the group no one wants to join good to hear that you are keen on managing this ailment…… it will pay you in the long run — k t1 14 yr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

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I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

welcome Mike, and excellent work.  There are several here who are off oral meds and others who are doing very well even though on meds. You’ll get lots of help here. Derek Type 1 since 1975 Minimed 508 Insulin Pump http://www.diabeticnet.com http://sweetblood.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org http://www.diabetesinterview.com http://www.zerolimit.net (irc server webpage for our chat room) #diabeticnet is the name of our IRC chat on zerolimit.net http://www.zerolimit.net/files/zl-mirc.zip  http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/misc/webtv.html http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/06/cureall.htm

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I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

Welcome, Mike. Glad to see you’ve gotten serious about control.  Over the course of the 30 years since my diagnosis, I too spent some time not paying too much attention — I encourage you, now that you’ve achieved control, to stick with it.   The good news is, that you can possibly reduce or eliminate medication with a healthy lifestyle, and even if you still need drugs, you’ll still be more fit — a win/win situation CarolC

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Welcome Mike. Sorry you’ve been elected to our group. Sounds like you’ve got a handle on things at last. Do let us know if you have any questions. Post often.  It helps keep one on the right track. Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

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I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening,

Welcome!  Sounds like you are on the right track! — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

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welcome aboard, mike – congrats on reaching your decisions – and good luck in reaching your goals – we’re all here to help however we can.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 2 years ago and am now really searous about trying to control it with diet.  I an currently using Advandia, Amaryl and Glucophage.  I recently reduced my glucise from 254 to 104 by watching my food real close and sticking with my medication.  I am planning to add bicycle riding to hopefully reduce my need for medication. Thanks for listening, Mike St.Clair

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Question:

Given the fact that there is seemingly wide variability in individual etiology for developing and expressing this disease, there reasonably there should exist a posture which allows  for variability in coping mechanisms, even though they are not "proven" within 2 standards of deviation, dropping 3.5% off of both ends, paid for and published in the Journal Medicus of your Choice. Make that 2 standard deviations…LOL Have a nice weekend.

and 2.5%. Thanks, I will. CBI

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Given the fact that there is seemingly wide variability in individual etiology for developing and expressing this disease, there reasonably there should exist a posture which allows  for variability in coping mechanisms, even though they are not "proven" within 2 standards of deviation, dropping 3.5% off of both ends, paid for and published in the Journal Medicus of your Choice.

Make that 2 standard deviations…LOL Have a nice weekend.

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This confirms Colin’s "medication" mentality.

And you have a milkshake and an MLM to help asthma.  That confirms your credibility.

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This confirms Colin’s "medication" mentality. Wrong.  It confirms my ‘use the right tool for the job’ mentality. The fact of the matter is that the most effective, safest and only _proven_ method of controlling asthma is with the appropriate medications.  Anything else is similar to using a screwdriver as a chisel.

Do you mean that they both might get the job done, but one is more likely to get screwed if they don’t get chiseled?  The heavens adore your grace.  

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The fact of the matter is that the most effective, safest and only _proven_ method of controlling asthma is with the appropriate medications.  Anything else is similar to using a screwdriver as a chisel. Do you mean that they both might get the job done, but one is more likely to get screwed if they don’t get chiseled?  The heavens adore your grace.  

My meaning was that if you use a screwdriver as a chisel you will probably get lucky and neither injure yourself break the tool, or damage the item you are working on.  Of course if you keep doing so, you will eventually do at least one of the above. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The fact of the matter is that the most effective, safest and only _proven_ method of controlling asthma is with the appropriate medications.  Anything else is similar to using a screwdriver as a chisel. Do you mean that they both might get the job done, but one is more likely to get screwed if they don’t get chiseled?  The heavens adore your grace.   My meaning was that if you use a screwdriver as a chisel you will probably get lucky and neither injure yourself break the tool, or damage the item you are working on.  Of course if you keep doing so, you will eventually do at least one of the above.

This analogy is interesting, especially your last sentence.  Given that there are so many variants, triggers and levels of response to any/all treatment efforts, "damaging the item you are working on", ie. the patient, may eventually in fact be the case.   Given the fact that there is seemingly wide variability in individual etiology for developing and expressing this disease, there reasonably there should exist a posture which allows  for variability in coping mechanisms, even though they are not "proven" within 2 standards of deviation, dropping 3.5% off of both ends, paid for and published in the Journal Medicus of your Choice. As for chiseling, you should also maintain a sharp edge on it and pay close attention to what you are doing, or as you correctly stated, someone or something is going to get hurt; even with the "right" tool.

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This confirms Colin’s "medication" mentality.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…) I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father} If you are 18 then you need to take charge of your health.  The fact that your dad does not think you have asthma should be considered to be "mildly interesting" but you need to 1) get a second opinion to confirm the diagnosis and 2) to get some medications that will actually control the asthma and allow you to live a better life. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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This confirms Colin’s "medication" mentality.

Wrong.  It confirms my ‘use the right tool for the job’ mentality. The fact of the matter is that the most effective, safest and only _proven_ method of controlling asthma is with the appropriate medications.  Anything else is similar to using a screwdriver as a chisel. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic.

My exercise-induced asthma, which has been with me my entire life but wasn’t diagnosed till I was 24 and developed allergic asthma as well, has been 100% vanquished by a steroid inhaler.  It’s amazing.  I was on a long-acting bronchodilator, Serevent here, and it was supposed to help but it didn’t really do a great deal.  Then I switched to a Flovent/Serevent combination, Flovent being an inhaled steroid (I haven’t got a clue as to how these names may differ in Australia, but a steroid’s a steroid more or less), and now I can run up and down hills without the slightest difficulty aside from being incredibly out of shape.  But I’ve learned the difference between being out of breath and having asthmatic wheezing, and it’s impossible to mistake it.  Breathing hard feels wonderful because I *can* breathe.   With only Ventolin in your arsenal, I’m afraid there’s not a lot you can do.  I took Ventolin alone for two or three years due to ignorant doctors, and I wheezed all the time.  Is there any way you can swing a heavier-duty prescription on your own, parents aside?  As far as I know the only solution to the EIA is proper treatment.  BTW, many people do suggest starting off with bronchodilators for exercise-induced symptoms; if you don’t have symptoms constantly, or allergic symptoms, they may want to be more conservative than to treat every single day with steroids as a preventer.  And it may be worth a try to pre-treat with Ventolin before you exercise, to see if that prevents an attack.  For me, though, it took an inhaled steroid, and the difference was night and day.  

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…) I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father} I’ve recently been investigating the condition via the internet, and just now have been reading from this group for some insite into the diseease. I’m sure you’ll all be happy to hear that I’ve decided that you (generally, well, some of you) definately know what you’re going on about and would surely have some helpful advice/resources for the unknowing. Other than not being able to exert myself without wheezing and gasping for breath, I also have quite a lot of trouble breathing in humid weather, cold weather adn walking is a really bad combination and on occasions perfumes and pollens get to me too, but it’s mainly exercise. So, if you’re still with me after all of that, i’d love any thoughts on exercise induced asthma. BTW: I’m in Australia, and i’m 18, so if it is something that is specifically american (such as air filter brand names, etc) pls edit those little things out for me (although i can easily figure that out for myself, it just saves reading, especially if you all start another argument over someone endorsing their products at me.) (those endorsing products – me A U S T R A L I A N, so forget it, n’kay?) thanks in advance Stephanie

Heya Stephanie I used to have the same problem.  I hadn’t been diagnosed with asthma but I definitely felt short of breath after exercise.  I finally got help after I had a real bad attack after running for a bus.  It was really frightening and I had to sit down and try and be calm and hope that my breath would return.  I went to the doc and he said that my peak-flow measurement was half a lungful short.  He put me on Pulmicort and Ventolin.  It was three days later when I suddenly felt great and had a whole lot more energy.  Then I started going to the gym and swimming.  And today I’m a total gym junkie.  I suggest you get yourself to the doc ASAP and get prescribed the right medication. You will be *heaps* glad you did. cheers Greg (Adelaide)

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I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father} thanks in advance Stephanie

If you have confirmed that you indeed have asthma, don’t let others’ denial keep you from properly treating the condition.  Treatment of asthma usually requires a specialist who understands the disease more deeply than a general practioner.  Usually this treatment includes controlling the disease with a "preventer" (anti-inflammatory) medication, which can include a steroidal inhaler or a leukotriene inhibitor (Singular or Accolate).  Often, a bronchodilator (medicine that relaxes and dilates airways) is used in combination with the preventers to help their penetration into the airways, or used as "rescue" medications.  The Ventolin that you are taking  is such a medication, and if you find that you require it too often, then your asthma needs to be under better control with preventers. You are making an intelligent decision to recognize your circumstance and take control of your own health.  Good luck.

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You would do best to find a good allergist or pulmonologist (sp?) who handles asthma patients and have a good exam/testing session(s).  Who prescribed the Ventolin?  Your doctor?  If you need that, you have some problem that should be identified and attended to.  That would be the first order of business:  Get yourself evaluated by an expert or two. At that point you can also use the expert Doctor to address your symptoms and problems and get you running or whatever physical exercise you want to do.  There are lots of strategies, but they depend on your situation.   This board has lots of knowledgable people, but the best thing is to find a real person in your back yard to help you. Finally, don’t listen to your Dad on the subject of asthma.  You’ll be better to find your own path on this.  And you’ll be better off, I bet. — Lou Pecora   – My views are my own.

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I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…)

Call the life squad the next time this happens.  I think the paramedics would be able to make your father understand you are not faking. People DIE from asthma. I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father}

A local girl nearly died from an asthma attack.  HER father thought she was pretending and would slap her every time she had breathing problems. This is based on the old misconception that asthma is just an emotional response and he considered it a ploy to get attention. Your father needs to be educated.  Try getting info on asthma off the net and giving it to him.  Give him the statistics on how many people die of asthma a year.  Check the American website for the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and they will have statistics on asthma deaths. It is definitely NOT something to ignore or belittle.  It is a dangerous life-threatening disease and if not properly treated, can lead very quickly to death. I’ve recently been investigating the condition via the internet, and just now have been reading from this group for some insite into the diseease. I’m sure you’ll all be happy to hear that I’ve decided that you (generally, well, some of you) definately know what you’re going on about and would surely have some helpful advice/resources for the unknowing. Other than not being able to exert myself without wheezing and gasping for breath, I also have quite a lot of trouble breathing in humid weather, cold weather adn walking is a really bad combination and on occasions perfumes and pollens get to me too, but it’s mainly exercise.

I’ve found that doing tai chi and akido help me with physical conditioning and weight lifting helps with muscle strength. So, if you’re still with me after all of that, i’d love any thoughts on exercise induced asthma.

I suggest you talk to your doctor about more meds.  IMHO, you need to be on a preventative inhaler such as Flovent or AsthmaCort.  These are inhaleable steroids which only are absorbed into the lung tissue and work wonders to prevent attacks. He might also want to put you on Singular.  Sounds like your doctor may not be up on the best treatment if you are having that much trouble. You could ask for a referral to a pulmonary specialist. BTW: I’m in Australia, and i’m 18, so if it is something that is specifically american (such as air filter brand names, etc) pls edit those little things out for me (although i can easily figure that out for myself, it just saves reading, especially if you all start another argument over someone endorsing their products at me.) (those endorsing products – me A U S T R A L I A N, so forget it, n’kay?)

When you are financially able to get out and away on your own, move to a drier climate.  That usually helps. I’m heading for the American SW as soon as I can get this house in order and sold. thanks in advance Stephanie

Sue

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Colin,  It isn’t so unusual that a parent won’t accept it. My daughter has asthma and we had a terrible time with her gym coach who had two daughters (with a confirmed diagnosis according to our common asthma doc) and seemed not to accept it in his kids, much less anyone else’s. He eventually had to leave the school because he was forcing kids who were having asthma attacks to run regardless of their condition. Joy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…) I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father} If you are 18 then you need to take charge of your health.  The fact that your dad does not think you have asthma should be considered to be "mildly interesting" but you need to 1) get a second opinion to confirm the diagnosis and 2) to get some medications that will actually control the asthma and allow you to live a better life. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…) I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father} I’ve recently been investigating the condition via the internet, and just now have been reading from this group for some insite into the diseease. I’m sure you’ll all be happy to hear that I’ve decided that you (generally, well, some of you) definately know what you’re going on about and would surely have some helpful advice/resources for the unknowing. Other than not being able to exert myself without wheezing and gasping for breath, I also have quite a lot of trouble breathing in humid weather, cold weather adn walking is a really bad combination and on occasions perfumes and pollens get to me too, but it’s mainly exercise. So, if you’re still with me after all of that, i’d love any thoughts on exercise induced asthma. BTW: I’m in Australia, and i’m 18, so if it is something that is specifically american (such as air filter brand names, etc) pls edit those little things out for me (although i can easily figure that out for myself, it just saves reading, especially if you all start another argument over someone endorsing their products at me.) (those endorsing products – me A U S T R A L I A N, so forget it, n’kay?) thanks in advance Stephanie

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I was just wondering if anyone has some advice and/or sites that would be helpful on this particular topic. Obviously to try and increase my lung size or to clean out my lungs, a nice "brisk run" is out of the question, as this would only bring me near death (ok, that IS exagarating, but having great slabbing pains in your chest, screaming leg muscles, tight chest and throat and not to mention the inevitable cough and phlegm is as close as I have so far come to death at any rate…) I have never been to hospital for my asthma, and I only have a Ventolin puffer as my dad thinks that I really DONT have asthma, that’s just what the doctor decided and anyway he’s wrong! {end of discussion on this topic with my father}

If you are 18 then you need to take charge of your health.  The fact that your dad does not think you have asthma should be considered to be "mildly interesting" but you need to 1) get a second opinion to confirm the diagnosis and 2) to get some medications that will actually control the asthma and allow you to live a better life. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

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