Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan Boy do I know this from first hand experience. First hand experience meaning that I was tangled in the web of a bipolar friend telling me he was going to "do it" and me being in the middle of the country, him on the east coast, and another friend on the west coast calling me telling me what’s going on. yeah-Like I could do anything but get myself worked up and spin more. I believe that, and this is my opinion, when people are suicidal and writing such things as I have vaguely glanced at on this board and other experiences, that their OWN dr or therapist is the first person they need to call. Why do I know this? Because I have lived it. I have OCD which makes me, in my situation, obsess about death even when its not my own. I have been hospitalized three times and two of them was for suicide watch. I personally agree here with Stan about seeing these "emotional games" being performed. Suicide is a part of bipolar, or should I say, CAN be a part of bipolar. The idealizations are present a significant amount of the time. Whether I am manic and want to drive my car down a steep hill and fly it over into the ravine or depressed and stare at medicine bottles-THAT is my time to call my psychologist or psychiatrist. And I think, everyone else’s. I wouldn’t have a problem helping someone by using a few caring words but to deal with suicide notes is not for layman to deal with-its for a specialist. JMHO.
I think that most people here, and I have seen this happen, would suggest that any suicidal person would be best to visit a professional or hospital. I can’t imagine the group taking it on board to ’save someone’. It seems a very wise and responsible group by all accounts here. I feel very confident in the moderators and other members of the group. I think that giving support to encourage a person to address their desperation in safest way is appropriate for a suicidal person. However, I don’t think that it’s responsible to try to do it ourselves. Helen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sarah
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since you mention it, that’s kinda what I noticed . . . but I also Googled around for Albert’s "activities" in Other Groups, and I kinda noticed, too, that he was *only* ~responding well~ to The Support offered by *obviously female "posting-handles"* . . . and I know it’s ~not my place~ to try to psychoanalyze *anybody*, especially not based solely on *Usenet behavior*, but IT SEEMED TO ME that "his problem" was/is *really, REALLY complicated*, way beyond [imo] a ~quick fix~. THE REASON I ^MENTION THIS^ is because I happen to know that *Ralph*, (-: ASDMM’s very own "Serial Hugger" 
put *HIM*self [<= *hint*] in the /very/ vulnerable position of *trying to help Albert*, and I’m afraid that [imo] *Albert snubbed Ralph*, and *RALPH* may now be hurt!
Thank you for thinking of me. (((((((Pie Crust)))))))) I’m happy to know that Albert did respond positively to someone and that he’s still around. I should have thought to "google" and see what is going on. I am just glad to hear that he did respond to someone. I feel a little bit better knowing that. Hugs, Ralph
Response:
Ralph has expressed the attitude of the original moderation team that created ASDMM. This is one reason why we never developed a detailed policy about spoilers and suicide/trigger posts. We wanted to take each post on it’s own merit. We did not want every moderator to have to read every word of every post. Moderation takes time and there are a lot of details we already must deal with (e.g. cross posting). You all see that we make mistakes all the time for basic stuff like cross posts–so I don’t see how we can enforce a spoiler policy. I will NOT make a policy that says you can’t make suicide posts. That would defeat the purpose of a "SUPPORT" group. Suicide posts are so rare, this type of policy would serve no purpose. My dollar! Nancy etched permanently into the ether: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m going to weigh in on this subject with my two cents worth. In the course of the past few years that I have been involved in the Bipolar Community, I have talked with a number of people who have threatened to commit suicide or have written posts to that effect. In three instances, I was able to convince the person involved that they had a reason to live and that they should talk to their PDoc or go to Emergency Facilities. Now, the number is two who have stopped communicating and I have no idea of their decission or fate. I can only offer to talk to people, to listen to them, and my advice is always to get to professional help. In three cases, I know that some good came of it. I would want to have the opportunity to try to help someone, if I could. I am NOT saying that *I* am the answer; I’m only saying that sometimes by listening and trying to be a friend, I extend just enough hope or encouragement or something, that the person will seek professional help. In a Bipolar support situation, I don’t think we can deny a person or a post because they display the symptoms of the condition that we are trying to give support for. Does that mean that the next time I am hurting from a mixed state that I am going to be denied access because I am expressing the hurt and anger that I feel? Does that mean that I can only post when I am 100% stable and am all cheerful and light? If so, where do I go to get support when I am hurting? Back to my original point. Where I can encourage people is that I have had Bipolar Disorder for over 30 years. I have been to hell and back with it. Yet, I have managed to survive and there are moments in my life that I actually enjoy life. So I can honestly say to someone "Yes, I have been there. I’ve done that. (or something darned close to it) and you do survive, the symptoms do go away, and all-in-all life is worth continueing." That is my message. One other message that I know for a fact, but I can’t prove scientifically. There is a "me", deep within, and hiding under all this bullcrap known as Bipolar Disorder. Within that "me" is a wealth of hope, knowledge, and worth that far transcends this bipolar illness. Sometimes it is damned hard to keep sight of that "me"; but that spark of life, as eternal as the stars and moreso, is what I really am; and not this damned Bipolar Disorder. Yes, I have to adjust my behavior to survive Bipolar Disorder, but I am more that Bipolar Disorder and more than the years I will be here in this world. And no, I’m not preaching a religion of any nature. I’m just telling you that I know we are all more than what meets the eye. A lot more. Hugs, Ralph
Response:
<cool2bbearsnip I’m not going to address every issue raised here. But, I think the group needs to know a few things. There is NO expectation that this group will prevent a suicide or self harm. There is NO expectation that we are here to save lives in that manner. When someone calls out for help, no matter what the form, we have allowed it to be posted. The ONLY expectation here is that when someone cries for help, we talk to them. That is all. Should that be in the Administrative Notice?
*yikes* . . . Nancy? I just sent a post ^suggesting something similar^ based on what I just read Helen saying . . . ~such is timing~. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL HERE BECAUSE OF THIS GROUP?????
(-: *hurray* If nothing else, we delayed Albert’s actions by an entire week. YES WE DID
(-: *hurray* We did not call him, we did not call 911–we just talked to him. That was all he needed, until his MOTHER screwed it all up.
Since you mention it, that’s kinda what I noticed . . . but I also Googled around for Albert’s "activities" in Other Groups, and I kinda noticed, too, that he was *only* ~responding well~ to The Support offered by *obviously female "posting-handles"* . . . and I know it’s ~not my place~ to try to psychoanalyze *anybody*, especially not based solely on *Usenet behavior*, but IT SEEMED TO ME that "his problem" was/is *really, REALLY complicated*, way beyond [imo] a ~quick fix~. THE REASON I ^MENTION THIS^ is because I happen to know that *Ralph*, (-: ASDMM’s very own "Serial Hugger" put *HIM*self [<= *hint*] in the /very/ vulnerable position of *trying to help Albert*, and I’m afraid that [imo] *Albert snubbed Ralph*, and *RALPH* may now be hurt! Just talking to people in crisis is helpful to them. Not every member of the group is obligated to read or respond to such messages. I wish I saved every private email I"ve gotten from people who have said ASDMM (the people here) made their life more bearable. All we do is talk and share our experiences and that alone is MOST helpful. That is WHY we post such messages (at this time).
Thank you for sharing The Up-Side, Nancy! I’m a bit worked up over this.
Sorry if my tone is harsh.
I’m in a major quandary–but I’m trying to do what is best for the group and also what is reasonable for the moderators.
(-: FWIW: *I* know you are! Nancy
And I know *you’re not alone*! Sincerely, "Pie Crust" — To email me, be sure to use the "Reply-to" eddress.
Response:
permanently into the ether: I’m listening to Helen: I think that most people here, and I have seen this happen, would suggest that any suicidal person would be best to visit a professional or hospital. I can’t imagine the group taking it on board to ’save someone’. It seems a very wise and responsible group by all accounts here. I feel very confident in the moderators and other members of the group. I think that giving support to encourage a person to address their desperation in safest way is appropriate for a suicidal person. However, I don’t think that it’s responsible to try to do it ourselves. Helen *IMO*: HELEN IS RIGHT!
My personal opinion (not as a moderator) is that Helen is right on–she just said it best. I hereby move that this discussion shift its focus to considerations of an emendment or emendments to ASDMM’s FAQ to include something along the lines of "ASDMM’s ethical suicide-support policy". If and when such a "prepared statement" is available, *any ASDMMer* can [copy and paste!] cite it, even *send it via email* to the person in crisis, if and when Other Words do not lend themselves to mind. The option of *any ASDMMer* to "say more" remains *uncompromised*. Does anybody ~second the motion~?
I am developing some new policy language. But, I want to add to the FAQ something about suicide–there are some really good web sites out there we could use. Here are just two of them: http://www.buslist.org/help.html http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ Any other suggestions for web site referrals? I’m thinking we need to add some rearouses to the FAQ, that could be copied and sent as Pie Crust suggests. But, any policy about HOW we post belongs in the Administrative Notice. I’m not ready to post my draft yet, as I’m not sure what I’ve written will work for ASDMM. The moderators need to discuss the logistics. Petri suggested we look at the BUS policies. I’m going to post them, but I’ll warn all of you, I have no clue how we as moderators on ASDMM would enforce such a policy. http://www.buslist.org/guidelines.html The suicide post from Albert was the first such post in the 3 year history of ASDMM. It is MY fault–as I invited the people at SSDC to ASDMM when the Christian trolls took over SSDC. It is an aberration, IMO. I do not see this problem as large as Stan does, as this is the first and only time such a message was posted on ASDMM. I have ceased my invitation to SSDC. Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan
Boy do I know this from first hand experience. First hand experience meaning that I was tangled in the web of a bipolar friend telling me he was going to "do it" and me being in the middle of the country, him on the east coast, and another friend on the west coast calling me telling me what’s going on. yeah-Like I could do anything but get myself worked up and spin more. I believe that, and this is my opinion, when people are suicidal and writing such things as I have vaguely glanced at on this board and other experiences, that their OWN dr or therapist is the first person they need to call. Why do I know this? Because I have lived it. I have OCD which makes me, in my situation, obsess about death even when its not my own. I have been hospitalized three times and two of them was for suicide watch. I personally agree here with Stan about seeing these "emotional games" being performed. Suicide is a part of bipolar, or should I say, CAN be a part of bipolar. The idealizations are present a significant amount of the time. Whether I am manic and want to drive my car down a steep hill and fly it over into the ravine or depressed and stare at medicine bottles-THAT is my time to call my psychologist or psychiatrist. And I think, everyone else’s. I wouldn’t have a problem helping someone by using a few caring words but to deal with suicide notes is not for layman to deal with-its for a specialist. JMHO. Sarah
Response:
I’m going to weigh in on this subject with my two cents worth. In the course of the past few years that I have been involved in the Bipolar Community, I have talked with a number of people who have threatened to commit suicide or have written posts to that effect. In three instances, I was able to convince the person involved that they had a reason to live and that they should talk to their PDoc or go to Emergency Facilities. Now, the number is two who have stopped communicating and I have no idea of their decission or fate. I can only offer to talk to people, to listen to them, and my advice is always to get to professional help. In three cases, I know that some good came of it. I would want to have the opportunity to try to help someone, if I could. I am NOT saying that *I* am the answer; I’m only saying that sometimes by listening and trying to be a friend, I extend just enough hope or encouragement or something, that the person will seek professional help. In a Bipolar support situation, I don’t think we can deny a person or a post because they display the symptoms of the condition that we are trying to give support for. Does that mean that the next time I am hurting from a mixed state that I am going to be denied access because I am expressing the hurt and anger that I feel? Does that mean that I can only post when I am 100% stable and am all cheerful and light? If so, where do I go to get support when I am hurting? Back to my original point. Where I can encourage people is that I have had Bipolar Disorder for over 30 years. I have been to hell and back with it. Yet, I have managed to survive and there are moments in my life that I actually enjoy life. So I can honestly say to someone "Yes, I have been there. I’ve done that. (or something darned close to it) and you do survive, the symptoms do go away, and all-in-all life is worth continueing." That is my message. One other message that I know for a fact, but I can’t prove scientifically. There is a "me", deep within, and hiding under all this bullcrap known as Bipolar Disorder. Within that "me" is a wealth of hope, knowledge, and worth that far transcends this bipolar illness. Sometimes it is damned hard to keep sight of that "me"; but that spark of life, as eternal as the stars and moreso, is what I really am; and not this damned Bipolar Disorder. Yes, I have to adjust my behavior to survive Bipolar Disorder, but I am more that Bipolar Disorder and more than the years I will be here in this world. And no, I’m not preaching a religion of any nature. I’m just telling you that I know we are all more than what meets the eye. A lot more. Hugs, Ralph
Response:
<cool2bbearsnipSarahMarie Hi, Stan. Hi, Sarah. My thanks to you both (and others here), for saying The Hard Things. IMO: whatever the particular reality of our recent "Albert experience" happens to be, I believe that *good* has [also] come of it. I’m listening to Helen: I think that most people here, and I have seen this happen, would suggest that any suicidal person would be best to visit a professional or hospital. I can’t imagine the group taking it on board to ’save someone’. It seems a very wise and responsible group by all accounts here. I feel very confident in the moderators and other members of the group. I think that giving support to encourage a person to address their desperation in safest way is appropriate for a suicidal person. However, I don’t think that it’s responsible to try to do it ourselves. Helen
*IMO*: HELEN IS RIGHT! I hereby move that this discussion shift its focus to considerations of an emendment or emendments to ASDMM’s FAQ to include something along the lines of "ASDMM’s ethical suicide-support policy". If and when such a "prepared statement" is available, *any ASDMMer* can [copy and paste!] cite it, even *send it via email* to the person in crisis, if and when Other Words do not lend themselves to mind. The option of *any ASDMMer* to "say more" remains *uncompromised*. Does anybody ~second the motion~? Sincerely, "Pie Crust" — To email me, be sure to use the "Reply-to" eddress.
Response:
permanently into the ether: But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out;
I’m not going to address every issue raised here. But, I think the group needs to know a few things. There is NO expectation that this group will prevent a suicide or self harm. There is NO expectation that we are here to save lives in that manner. When someone calls out for help, no matter what the form, we have allowed it to be posted. The ONLY expectation here is that when someone cries for help, we talk to them. That is all. Should that be in the Administrative Notice? DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL HERE BECAUSE OF THIS GROUP????? If nothing else, we delayed Albert’s actions by an entire week. YES WE DID We did not call him, we did not call 911–we just talked to him. That was all he needed, until his MOTHER screwed it all up. Just talking to people in crisis is helpful to them. Not every member of the group is obligated to read or respond to such messages. I wish I saved every private email I"ve gotten from people who have said ASDMM (the people here) made their life more bearable. All we do is talk and share our experiences and that alone is MOST helpful. That is WHY we post such messages (at this time). I’m a bit worked up over this. Sorry if my tone is harsh. I’m in a major quandary–but I’m trying to do what is best for the group and also what is reasonable for the moderators. Nancy administrator/creator/moderator alt.med.fibromyalgia.recovery.info (moderated) alt.support.depression.manic.moderated to email me from news groups, just remove the Z.
Response:
<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m a part of this group and to be honest with you I think I get triggered by almost anything anyway. If I don’t want to be triggered I need to put myself in a cocoon. This is a bipolar support group and I feel that what you are suggesting is like saying to a person going to an asthma support group, sure you can stay, but if you have an asthma attack, you’ll have to leave. Being suicidal is a symptom of this disorder, we can’t pretend it’s not there. It’s a big risk. It’s real. Hiding from it makes it that much stronger in my mind. I’d prefer to face the monster head on. I personally don’t feel bad about anyone who comes here suicidal. In fact I imagine this scenario, I am suicidal and I’m ashamed and afraid. I can’t call my mum because I dont’ want to burden here and I don’t want her to know. I can’t call my partner because he’d freak. I can’t reach my brothers, I won’t call my friends. I’m too frightened to call the hospital. I’d like to think that I’d be able to come her to talk it through with others who have been there and in a forum where it’s moderated and there won’t be any posters saying ‘yeah do it, loser!’. I feel safe to express myself here. If not here, where else would I go for support. There’s a comfort in the simultaneous closeness and yet, the anonymity afforded by this group.
Amen
Response:
Hi Perciosa: since this thread appears to be reopened Thank you for at least disagreeing with me in a civil manner. Let me try to make some clarification here! I’m never said suicide is a subject that shouldn’t be discussed in this forum. That I believe would be absurd!! It is one disturbing part of the bipolar beast and should be discussed. I’m talking about the subject of suicide notes and like post being left here. <I can’t do anything right any longer. Goodbye. <Worthless human excrement looser —— <Will NO LONGER be checking replies, etc. <Those who thought I was a hoax/troll: <ha ha, I win, I’m dead, or brain-damaged or both. Just using the above post exert as an example, and removed the name because it’s not relevant in this point I’m trying to make here: please go ahead and make a case for these type of post for me. I personally can see no redeeming value at all for either the person sending it or the forum that reads it. I have seen time and time again what this type of posting does in other forums! Suicide is no game or joke! Bipolar die all the time from making that selfish and unfortunate choice. But if anyone thinks they can do proper crisis intervention in a newsgroup forum, they might very well be setting a dangerous president! Is anyone here going to step foreword and take full or even partial responsibility for someone taking their own life here, because they failed in their intervention? I would only ask that you seriously ponder that question!!!! When a person is in life threatening crisis, they need immediate real life/face to face professional intervention by those trained to deal with these situations. Not a forum where both post and responses are delayed ( maybe even lost), are left up to those that are not professionals ( there actually maybe crisis professionals that come here? I don’t know? but I would seriously doubt they would recommend a newsgroup for crisis intervention ), and also leaves the door open for those that may unintentionally give that person false or dangerous advice. This is forum can being very good in sharing information, sharing thoughts and opinions, lending support, venting frustrations and lots of other things that don’t come to mind at this very moment. But it can never replace doctors, therapist, crisis intervention professionals, medications for those that take them, hospitals when needed, and even just something as simple as the sound of a voice, a face to face glance, or a hand to hand touch. I will not even going into with any depth how many times I’ve seen this used as just an attention getter in other post and chat forums; and that person or persons sits there having a good long laugh at the expense of anyone that does become emotionally involved in the hoax. Talk about the ultimate act in derailing focus in a group!! Anywise, I’m always open to honest debate and disagreement with my opinions and post! I will await the response from the group moderators on post policy. I can live with that decision, and then I will use my personal right to either stay or leave the group. I’m certainly not going harbor animosity over this issue. sincerely Stan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan I’m a part of this group and to be honest with you I think I get triggered by almost anything anyway. If I don’t want to be triggered I need to put myself in a cocoon. This is a bipolar support group and I feel that what you are suggesting is like saying to a person going to an asthma support group, sure you can stay, but if you have an asthma attack, you’ll have to leave. Being suicidal is a symptom of this disorder, we can’t pretend it’s not there. It’s a big risk. It’s real. Hiding from it makes it that much stronger in my mind. I’d prefer to face the monster head on. I personally don’t feel bad about anyone who comes here suicidal. In fact I imagine this scenario, I am suicidal and I’m ashamed and afraid. I can’t call my mum because I dont’ want to burden here and I don’t want her to know. I can’t call my partner because he’d freak. I can’t reach my brothers, I won’t call my friends. I’m too frightened to call the hospital. I’d like to think that I’d be able to come her to talk it through with others who have been there and in a forum where it’s moderated and there won’t be any posters saying ‘yeah do it, loser!’. I feel safe to express myself here. If not here, where else would I go for support. There’s a comfort in the simultaneous closeness and yet, the anonymity afforded by this group. I came here to get support for this disorder, not to hide from it in fear and expect others to be a certain way so that I don’t get triggered. That’s part of being bipolar trying to control the world so it stops triggering me! I don’t want to do that any more. I feel that if I started to dictate what topics could and couldn’t be posted here I’d be hurting others who might need support. This group isn’t for me, it’s for every bipolar person, provided they are being respectful and not insulting of course! I want to know that if I’m low or high, I can come here and I won’t be ridiculed or hurt. Otherwise, why come here. What would be the point to have a support group who expects you to have supported yourself before you come here. Just my two cents. Helen
Response:
Hello Stan, Yes, I know I am certainly not a moderator here but if you (and the moderators) do not mind I would like to add my thoughts to what you have said here. I would warn you that I am very confused about this whole subject, I certainly have no answers, and I will try to explain that. I have a very strong suicide background. As I was growing up my mother was constantly threatening and/or trying it. There were times that I drove her to the ER before I was old enough to legally drive. In additon to that when I was a teenager she shot herself and I was the one to find her. I can not begin to tell you what that did to me and many situations related to that will forever remain my biggest triggers. My mother did survive after many weeks on the critical list in the hospital. However I was forever changed from finding her, from going back home the next day and seeing the outline the police had drawn around her body, from cleaning up everything that resulted from the gunshot, and from many other events surrounding this. Another very close family member also attempted suicide and I have had several close friends that killed themselves. There is a part of me that has always felt it was my destiny to kill myself. On one hand I would never so to because I could not do to my kids what my mother did to me. Still there is sometimes this strange part of me that comes forward and takes over and makes me want to follow that unintended destiny. Please forgive me for going into such detail about my background. It certainly is not my intention to trigger others and that is why I added the warning at the top of this post. I only wanted to give an example of the reasons that reading others cry for help in their suicide letters can set off triggers in others. I don’t know if there is an answer or solution to this. After all this is a support group and in fact I have at times myself written such suicide related posts to other support groups. When you are in that place you need help and you need it then. You need to hear from others just to know they are there and they are listening to you and maybe even they care. I know the first response would be to tell that person to call a hotline or go to the ER or do something to get help where they are since there is little we can do as far as getting physical, immediate help to that person. However I believe that person needs badly to talk to someone and may feel safer in contacting an anonymous group like this. I would never want to withhold any help from a person in that state. On other groups I used to take every post like that very personally and do everything I could to contact the person and try to help. I was somehow driven to at least try. Then with time it took it’s toll on me and today it is difficult for me to even answer such posts but still I think and worry about that person almost constantly. Forgive me Stan for jumping on your post with all this but it so directly relates to what you are saying. And to Nancy I would say that I am not necessarily requesting that you not post such letters because this is a support group and many of us deal with those feelings. I am trying to say that I do not know how this would be best handled because I very clearly see both sides of it. I suppose you could always add a "trigger caution" at the top of the post but that sometimes encourages us to read the post. I just wanted you to know how and why it can affect some of us to read those posts but I don’t want to take away support to a person in such dire need. Obviously I am confused about this and rambling on far too much and for that I apologize to anyone reading this. It is close to my heart and I do not see any good solutions to it. I care about everyone and there is good and bad either way you go with this. Sorry for this long post but posts like the ones Stan is discussing always seems to set off horrible triggers in me and possibly in others as well and the recent posts have sent me into a very bad place. Especially now because today is my mother’s birthday and she died back in 1988. I have never come to terms with it all. However, I repeat I still would hate to withhold help from those that need it so badly. Posted in total confusion and deep depression, Bonnie —
Response:
Hello Maggie, I am sorry you understand so well what I am talking about and how I feel. It was and still is a living nightmare. Maybe it is made worse when it is our mother because from birth we are raised to feel that is the one person we can go to for love, care and advice. Then we get such mixed messages back in the actions that our mother’s problems have caused her to take. I know my mother was sick and went untreated for her illness. I don’t think it was her intention to hurt me but still she did – more than she ever knew. I did not understand how bad my childhood was until I had children of my own and one day I realized that all the things I did without question for my children were never done for me. I think it really began to hit me then. That is also when I realized that I had spent a lifetime running from my past, refusing to acknowledge it. It does make your own diagnosis bad. I was in denial about most all of it and then one day my son was diagnosed BP2. It was so shocking to me even though it should not have been. I had lived with it all my life in much of my family, in me and in my son without having a name for it. In fact it was such a "normal" part of life for me that I did not know that others did not feel the same way. I never knew "normal" so how could I compare anything to it? It was after my son was diagnosed that I finally went for help myself. I’m still working on it and still failing. It is good to hear you say that somehow we will think of a plan. I know I have made some steps forward in getting help and realizing that what I am is not normal and needs medication. Still there is so much….. Thank you so much Maggie for your understanding and help, Bonnie —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-Archive: yes I have a very strong suicide background. As I was growing up my mother was constantly threatening and/or trying it. Bonnie Your’s too? Bonnie……it is as if you are sitting here next to me on the sofa, whispering to me your most horrible secret, and somehow knowing that I will understand because I have been there, too. I can feel and hear the honesty in every word you have written. The HORROR…..THE HORROR…….THE HORROR! btw: Memories of my mother made my own diagnosis almost unbearable to hear. Somehow we will think of a plan, okay? Maggie
Response:
Gee Wiz: If this wasn’t a support group, I would get the impression you were making a personal attack against me Jacky-YoMama ( laughing ) Maybe it’s time for me to move on to greener pastures and a more healthy environment!
It’s my fault. I should have sent Jacky’s post back to him/her (I forget at the moment) but instead I edited one line so that it wasn’t sounding like a true personal attack and would have been rejected. I was curious to see what others would think, and I am realizing that maybe I should have let the moderation team discuss this first instead of asking you readers what your thoughts were. I thought this would be a good discussion but now I’m not so sure. Because, besides not coming here to read suicide notes, I certainly don’t come here to be personally attacked for my honest concerns.
Like I said, this is purely my fault and I think I’m going to close this thread until the moderation team has discussed it. If you want to fill me in on what you think, feel free to email me at it to the table when the team discusses it. I did not mean to start an argument or upset anyone, I guess all that Kaboom! cleaner really has gotten to me since I’ve scrubbed my bathroom and kitchen this morning as well as hung up my new shower curtains, washed and put away all my new towels (as well as hung up the decorative ones), washed and put away all our new dishes, silverware and glasses and other stuff that we bought recently at Wal Mart. ****THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED****
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan
I’m a part of this group and to be honest with you I think I get triggered by almost anything anyway. If I don’t want to be triggered I need to put myself in a cocoon. This is a bipolar support group and I feel that what you are suggesting is like saying to a person going to an asthma support group, sure you can stay, but if you have an asthma attack, you’ll have to leave. Being suicidal is a symptom of this disorder, we can’t pretend it’s not there. It’s a big risk. It’s real. Hiding from it makes it that much stronger in my mind. I’d prefer to face the monster head on. I personally don’t feel bad about anyone who comes here suicidal. In fact I imagine this scenario, I am suicidal and I’m ashamed and afraid. I can’t call my mum because I dont’ want to burden here and I don’t want her to know. I can’t call my partner because he’d freak. I can’t reach my brothers, I won’t call my friends. I’m too frightened to call the hospital. I’d like to think that I’d be able to come her to talk it through with others who have been there and in a forum where it’s moderated and there won’t be any posters saying ‘yeah do it, loser!’. I feel safe to express myself here. If not here, where else would I go for support. There’s a comfort in the simultaneous closeness and yet, the anonymity afforded by this group. I came here to get support for this disorder, not to hide from it in fear and expect others to be a certain way so that I don’t get triggered. That’s part of being bipolar trying to control the world so it stops triggering me! I don’t want to do that any more. I feel that if I started to dictate what topics could and couldn’t be posted here I’d be hurting others who might need support. This group isn’t for me, it’s for every bipolar person, provided they are being respectful and not insulting of course! I want to know that if I’m low or high, I can come here and I won’t be ridiculed or hurt. Otherwise, why come here. What would be the point to have a support group who expects you to have supported yourself before you come here. Just my two cents. Helen
Response:
Gee Wiz: If this wasn’t a support group, I would get the impression you were making a personal attack against me Jacky-YoMama ( laughing ) Maybe it’s time for me to move on to greener pastures and a more healthy environment! I certainly wouldn’t want to ruffle any feathers in here. Does that make you happy now Jacky and those like minded others? Get out your pity party hats and start blowing up the balloons! Because, besides not coming here to read suicide notes, I certainly don’t come here to be personally attacked for my honest concerns. If you read my post correctly? It was addressed to the moderators and my real concern about what is considered acceptable posting in this forum. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but when you make this a personal attack/issue against me. Then I really have no tolerance for that kind of ignorance, even in a mood disorder forum. Hugs and Kisses Stan As the great philosopher Jack Nicholson once said: "you want the truth, you can’t handle the truth" <LOL
Response:
Heather, I agree with all you are saying here and when you read my post related to this please know that it is only an attempt to let you know how difficult the suicide posts can be for some of us. Still, I do not want to withhold help that could possibly make a big difference. As I said in my post I certainly have no answers or even suggestions to this situation and I do appreciate Stan bringing up what I was hesitant to do myself. Bonnie —
Response:
Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan
Response:
But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here.
Okay, I want to first thank you for pointing this out, it has been forwarded on to Nancy, and after it has been discussed and a decision reached, we’ll let you know. Personally, and this is from experience, sometimes just posting will stop someone from hurting themselves. Sometimes they will post it and give it a certain amount of time to see who responds to their post, and even if one person does, then they do not go through with it. I agree that it is triggering and I feel it deserves a *SPOILER* rating, but this is my opinion and mine alone. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them.
And I can hear my husband standing behind me reminding me that I can’t save the world. But I can be there for someone who needs me. More than once in the bipolar chat room there would be someone who was on the brink and if it wasn’t for people in the room talking to them and helping htem see how it was worth it to hang in there they would have been gone a long time ago. It could also be ugly because there has been a person or two known to fake it and then sit back and see what happened. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post?
Well, I kinda got started on my take right now, and if I didn’t have to get off of here and get something to eat before my sugar goes in the toilet any further, I’d elaborate more. I may do that anyway here shortly.
Response:
Hello Stan, Yes, I know I am certainly not a moderator here but if you (and the moderators) do not mind I would like to add my thoughts to what you have said here. I would warn you that I am very confused about this whole subject, I certainly have no answers, and I will try to explain that. I have a very strong suicide background. As I was growing up my mother was constantly threatening and/or trying it. There were times that I drove her to the ER before I was old enough to legally drive. In additon to that when I was a teenager she shot herself and I was the one to find her. I can not begin to tell you what that did to me and many situations related to that will forever remain my biggest triggers. My mother did survive after many weeks on the critical list in the hospital. However I was forever changed from finding her, from going back home the next day and seeing the outline the police had drawn around her body, from cleaning up everything that resulted from the gunshot, and from many other events surrounding this. Another very close family member also attempted suicide and I have had several close friends that killed themselves. There is a part of me that has always felt it was my destiny to kill myself. On one hand I would never so to because I could not do to my kids what my mother did to me. Still there is sometimes this strange part of me that comes forward and takes over and makes me want to follow that unintended destiny. Please forgive me for going into such detail about my background. It certainly is not my intention to trigger others and that is why I added the warning at the top of this post. I only wanted to give an example of the reasons that reading others cry for help in their suicide letters can set off triggers in others. I don’t know if there is an answer or solution to this. After all this is a support group and in fact I have at times myself written such suicide related posts to other support groups. When you are in that place you need help and you need it then. You need to hear from others just to know they are there and they are listening to you and maybe even they care. I know the first response would be to tell that person to call a hotline or go to the ER or do something to get help where they are since there is little we can do as far as getting physical, immediate help to that person. However I believe that person needs badly to talk to someone and may feel safer in contacting an anonymous group like this. I would never want to withhold any help from a person in that state. On other groups I used to take every post like that very personally and do everything I could to contact the person and try to help. I was somehow driven to at least try. Then with time it took it’s toll on me and today it is difficult for me to even answer such posts but still I think and worry about that person almost constantly. Forgive me Stan for jumping on your post with all this but it so directly relates to what you are saying. And to Nancy I would say that I am not necessarily requesting that you not post such letters because this is a support group and many of us deal with those feelings. I am trying to say that I do not know how this would be best handled because I very clearly see both sides of it. I suppose you could always add a "trigger caution" at the top of the post but that sometimes encourages us to read the post. I just wanted you to know how and why it can affect some of us to read those posts but I don’t want to take away support to a person in such dire need. Obviously I am confused about this and rambling on far too much and for that I apologize to anyone reading this. It is close to my heart and I do not see any good solutions to it. I care about everyone and there is good and bad either way you go with this. Sorry for this long post but posts like the ones Stan is discussing always seems to set off horrible triggers in me and possibly in others as well and the recent posts have sent me into a very bad place. Especially now because today is my mother’s birthday and she died back in 1988. I have never come to terms with it all. However, I repeat I still would hate to withhold help from those that need it so badly. Posted in total confusion and deep depression, Bonnie —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Moderators: I know you have to filter through many post here, and it’s almost impossible to read every post and make sure it has proper merit as well as not being offensive. I do appreciate this group, the wonderful people here, and sometimes thankless effort you put forth on a daily basis. ( let me say thank you ) But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out; But I personally feel it can be triggering, is counter productive in it’s intent, and does nothing for the group but create an atmosphere of drama and emotional trauma. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other forums. Anywise, I would just like to know your take on these type of post? Thank you Stan
Response:
<snip But may I ask you why would you post someone’s perceived self harm or intended suicide note. I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here.
Through hospitalisations I have met many manic depressives who self harm, I would also be one of those people. The "benefit" of allowing the post is that you are helping that person to find people to relate with, a specific self harm news group may not fit the bill because it may well be the bipolar symptoms or change in moods that have driven the person to this state. I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way. It’s not like we can just pick up the phone to dial 911 and help them.
No but that 911 call might not ever have to be made by anyone if just maybe someone on the NG manages to get through to someone on the brink. I know it’s done out of desperation and as an act of calling out;
Erm, not every suicide attempt is out of desparation or a cry for help, I’m surprised someone in this group would make such a naive comment. I know that is not what I come here for! I have seen these type of horrible emotional games played out to many times on the web in various other
forums. Games ??????? What a fun game, rolling the dice on your life. SR
Response:
First, before I reply, let me add my THANK YA’LL’s to the moderators. NOW: as for you, Stan:
I don’t see a lot of benefit in allowing that type of posting here.
First, see Heather’s great reply. Second, who the hell cares what YOU "see" as beneficial to someone other than yourself unless YOU are trying to help them? I think it’s unfair to each person that comes here for anyone to use this forum in that way.
"Oh, you want to (insert technique of hurtin’ yerself here) . . . please help (read: I don’t want to do this — I know this doesn’t make sense — but maybe YOU can — I’m not a total idiot so maybe I’ll wait for your reply before I DO hurt myself)." Stan-like-character: "I’m sorry, that is inappropriate. I hope you did not kill yourself overnight." I know that is not what I come here for!
You are SELFISH.
Response:
So, who’s gonna write it, and who’s gonna post it? Should we host it on one of our websites, and then have a short explanatory post with a URL? Kitten 
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