Question:

Redox Rep. 2005;10(1):52-60. Links Dietary supplementation with (R)-alpha-lipoic acid reverses the age-related accumulation of iron and depletion of antioxidants in the rat cerebral cortex. Suh JH, Moreau R, Heath SH, Hagen TM. Department Biochemistry and Biophysics, Linus Pauling Institute, Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon, USA. Accumulation of divalent metal ions (e.g. iron and copper) has been proposed to contribute to heightened oxidative stress evident in aging and neurodegenerative disorders. To understand the extent of iron accumulation and its effect on antioxidant status, we monitored iron content in the cerebral cortex of F344 rats by inductively coupled plasma atomic emission spectrometry (ICP-AES) and found that the cerebral iron levels in 24-28-month-old rats were increased by 80% (p<0.01) relative to 3-month-old rats. Iron accumulation correlated with a decline in glutathione (GSH) and the GSH/GSSG ratio, indicating that iron accumulation altered antioxidant capacity and thiol redox state in aged animals. Because (R)-alpha-Lipoic acid (LA) is a potent chelator of divalent metal ions in vitro and also regenerates other antioxidants, we monitored whether feeding LA (0.2% [w/w]; 2 weeks) could lower cortical iron and improve antioxidant status. Results show that cerebral iron levels in old LA-fed animals were lower when compared to controls and were similar to levels seen in young rats. Antioxidant status and thiol redox state also improved markedly in old LA-fed rats versus controls. These results thus show that LA supplementation may be a means to modulate the age-related accumulation of cortical iron content, thereby lowering oxidative stress associated with aging. PMID: 15829111 [PubMed - in process] ————————————————————————— —– Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://herbivore.7h.com

Response:

You are seeing this message because Tom Hennessy aka ironjust…@aol.com has posted a message in alt.support.mult-sclerosis. If you are new to this group then please understand that he appears to get his thrills from the misfortunes of other people, evidenced by his comments to the victims of forest fires, the passing of members of this newsgroup and his presence on all support newsgroups. In keeping with his personality, Tommy believes discussions in these groups are conducted by using off-colour language and name calling that would make a rattlesnake spew. This personality trait is shown here: http://flyembie.notlong.com He seems to believe that whoever swears loudest and longest is the winner. In his mind, Hennessy believes he is a great researcher who has won a Nobel Prize. In fact, he merely copies medical material from the web and pastes it to usenet, proudly calling this his research. There was a time when people like Tommy were institutionalized, now they are allowed to run for public office and post to usenet. He is a fine example why a mental health unit should not obtain an internet account. Previous addresses include watch…@nucleus.com, thenne…@telus.net, darreltaylor…@hotmail.com. — Spelling and grammatical errors are deliberate to catch copyright violators.

Question:

Trying to get as much information as l can about solar before we take the plunge! The library books in our area were written about 1970’s-1980’s and we need something more up to date. Recommendations please for books to purchase and read. Thanks to all! Ernie

Response:

Trying to get as much information as l can about solar before we take the plunge! The library books in our area were written about 1970’s-1980’s and we need something more up to date. Recommendations please for books to purchase and read. Thanks to all! Ernie

A solar house?  If so..  EcoHouse – A Design Guide by Sue Roaf. — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

A solar house?  If so..  EcoHouse – A Design Guide by Sue Roaf.

Do you recall its solar heating fraction? Nick

Response:

A solar house?  If so..  EcoHouse – A Design Guide by Sue Roaf. Do you recall its solar heating fraction?

The books(s) are design guides.  Sue Roaf gives her house as an example through the book.  At 7 years, the house is quite old now and if built today probably would be different – she wanted a very high thermal mass, and she does highlight problems which she would have do differently next time.  The new book is out next week, however I thought she could have elaborated more on different building techniques, which she may have rectified in the new book.  Her house is not 100% solar that is for sure, having a small radiator heating system with a gas condensing boiler. Go to http://www.amazon.co.uk for reader reviews – search on "EcoHouse – A Design Guide"  The first book was EcoHouse – A Design Guide, which has some readers reviews and now a new edition Ecohouse 2, which is avialble on the 23rd June 2003.  I have no connection with book.  It is a very good guide to the design of eco homes, with examples from all over the world. From Amazon.com… Book Description Ecohouse 2 tells you how to design low energy, environmentally friendly buildings. It provides the foundations for building design in a warming world, and shows how to take the first step towards the zero-carbon emission buildings of tomorrow. Sue Roaf is famed for her approach to design and her awareness of energy efficiency. Here she reveals the concepts, structures and techniques that lie behind the realization of her ideals. By using her own house as a case-study Roaf guides the reader through the ideas for energy efficient design or ‘eco design’. This second edition, a follow up to the best selling original, introduces new sections including earth sheltering and reed beds. It also explores 10 case-studies of ecohouses, and covers 6 examples of eco-villages from around the world. It is an ideal comprehensive reference for architects, designers and their clients, as well as self builders, who wish to help make sustainable design a reality. KEY FEATURES: * Have all the knowledge at your fingertips, with this

Question:

hi—i don’t hold that much stock in the idea of stress being an instigator—that was always claimed for stomach ulcers.  also, jews had more stress every place else than n.y. as far as jews in the u.s. being less observant of dietary laws, do you know if ibd is more prevalent in reform jews than orthodox ones? i believe there are studies that show farmers have less ibd and that stregthens the hygiene hypothesis. have there ever been epidemiology studies of crohn’s. ah—so many clues yet no answers. be well, mel

Response:

Hi Mel,  as you point out, "ah—so many clues yet no answers"… your question about reform vs orthodox could be revealing, but as yet I haven’t seen anything.  I can understand doubts about stress, but we need to do two things… 1) consider stress that is ‘chronic’ and its effect on adrenal glands and, for the ladies, effect on progesterone/estrogen balance and also 2) consider stress as physiological… pollutants, toxins, food allergies/sensitivities.    Also, don’t think cause, think exacerbating factor… stress may not have been the ’cause’ of ulcers, but it can and does affect the bodies ability to deal with H. pylori and the symptoms. If you limit yourself to a single cause/effect approach, then I think you will overlook valuable tools in living with and limiting IBS.  An open questioning mind is our best defense against this and MANY other chronic diseases.   best, Wayne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi—i don’t hold that much stock in the idea of stress being an instigator—that was always claimed for stomach ulcers.  also, jews had more stress every place else than n.y. as far as jews in the u.s. being less observant of dietary laws, do you know if ibd is more prevalent in reform jews than orthodox ones? i believe there are studies that show farmers have less ibd and that stregthens the hygiene hypothesis. have there ever been epidemiology studies of crohn’s. ah—so many clues yet no answers. be well, mel

Response:

Hi Melvyn, the ‘hygiene hypothesis ‘ for all demographics in general is getting more play, and maybe it will lead somewhere, as in the worm therapy… which I am sure will be marketed at some point.  Jews have had a long standing dietary protocol for thousands of years.  I have heard that it is North American Jews that are experiencing the greatest increase in auto-immune diseases.  I would offer, as a hypothesis, that more and more novel foods are suddenly finding their way into a population that no longer follows as rigidly its centuries old guidelines, and they lack the adaptation to handle them.  But of course, we are all experiencing huge increases in our disease rates, and we should all look to our ability to deal with certain foods, especially in the quantities we find them. Think of diet and stress as trigger factors in a disease with many possible factors. You may want to hypothesize on stress within various cultures also… as many people have negative disease reactions during stress periods.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi—i was wondering if crohn’s first appeared in jews because their food was cleaner—kosher practices.  later as more people ate cleaner food, they consumed less foreign substances—worms and germs.  any comment? anyway—my prayer is that the worms work for all ibd patients–without side effects–it does seem possible from the early results.  still don’t know why some alternative health company doesn’t market worms as a natural supplement. mel Bruce wrote… "I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system."… you’ve got a darn good hope there Bruce, and one I’ll ask for tonight in my prayers… be well and thanks for your thoughts… nite,Wayne Hi Bruce, I’m wondering, why is it that you feel an elevated white blood cell count is indicative of an overactive immune system? Typically, WBC’s are elevated in dealing with a problem and this is a normal immune response. For the record, I never said that a high WBC was indicative of a "over-reactive" immune system but rather that is is often elevated in active cases of IBD, and is just another tool a physician can use to diagnose a patient.  That the problem persists is indicative of a serious and persistent condition, one the immune system is not up to handling without help…  but this does not necessarily prove an immune system run amok.  I think these immune building therapies and lifestyle changes, that have helped people, indicate that maybe our bodies just need help in dealing with a very persistent and aggressive set of circumstances.  I do think that the immune response can and does increase the inflammation when it is unable to defeat the problem and then begins to work against the body, but it is not self-reactive, just overwhelmed.  This would explain why some people gain remission by supporting their immune systems by reducing stress, optimizing diet, exercising or using some of these immune enhancing therapies, antibiotics, probiotics/worm therapies. . What you describe above sounds similar to what happens with TB, the body contains or controls the Mycobacteria but doesn’t eliminate it totally, instead forming granuloma’s where the Mycobacteria are "walled" off. In this case it is not a autoimmune response, however this has yet to be shown to be the case in IBD and most evidence leads to an autoimmune reaction. In an autoimmune response the body’s immune cells react with self-antigens or self-tissue causing destruction and disease symptoms. A person might ask why would my body attack itself?  The answer is something I’ve mentioned before, molecular mimicry, where a foreign organism/virus stimulates an immune response but once the offending organism/virus has been eliminated the immune response continues.  It continues because the body’s cells have antigens similar to those found on the organism/virus and the body simply cannot tell the difference at that point. Stimulating the immune system is only going make this response worse, you have an aggressive immune process already, than stimulating the immune system will only lead to more inflammation, and thus more disease activity.  This is why immune suppression works so well for so many patients with IBD. Now this is the just the average model of IBD and what is thought to happen. Does it happen like this in every case? Probably not, there some cases where it may be like you said, a immune response that is for whatever reason unable to eliminate an organism but not neccessarily self reactive.  However these are probably not in the majority of cases. I don’t want to be painted as someone who isn’t open to new ideas. Probiotics and worm therapies have long sounded promising to me and actually may work in some cases.  I always say there are over 400 species of bacteria in the colon, it’d be hard to believe that they don’t at least play some role in the pathogenesis in IBD. The worm therapy is actually in line with the hygiene theory that has been postulated to be the cause of asthma.  In the past(I don’t mean last year, but hundreds and thousands of years ago)the body encountered countless helminths and other parasites of that nature in the environment. The body evolved very well to deal with these worms, Ig E antibodies and eosinophils, among other components, were produced to eliminate the worms.  As sanitation and hygiene increased in the developed world, helminths and other parasites were all but eliminated leaving the the Ig E antibodies, eosinophils, mast cells etc. without any worms in the gut to eliminate and thus it’s been theorized that these cells and antibodies might be more prone to react with self-tissue.  Asthma and IBD are quite different obviously, but to finish this point, putting "worms" back into the gut might direct the immune response away from the human gut and toward the worms. I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system.

Response:

hi—i was wondering if crohn’s first appeared in jews because their food was cleaner—kosher practices.  later as more people ate cleaner food, they consumed less foreign substances—worms and germs.  any comment? anyway—my prayer is that the worms work for all ibd patients–without side effects–it does seem possible from the early results.  still don’t know why some alternative health company doesn’t market worms as a natural supplement. mel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bruce wrote… "I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system."… you’ve got a darn good hope there Bruce, and one I’ll ask for tonight in my prayers… be well and thanks for your thoughts… nite,Wayne Hi Bruce, I’m wondering, why is it that you feel an elevated white blood cell count is indicative of an overactive immune system? Typically, WBC’s are elevated in dealing with a problem and this is a normal immune response. For the record, I never said that a high WBC was indicative of a "over-reactive" immune system but rather that is is often elevated in active cases of IBD, and is just another tool a physician can use to diagnose a patient.  That the problem persists is indicative of a serious and persistent condition, one the immune system is not up to handling without help…  but this does not necessarily prove an immune system run amok.  I think these immune building therapies and lifestyle changes, that have helped people, indicate that maybe our bodies just need help in dealing with a very persistent and aggressive set of circumstances.  I do think that the immune response can and does increase the inflammation when it is unable to defeat the problem and then begins to work against the body, but it is not self-reactive, just overwhelmed.  This would explain why some people gain remission by supporting their immune systems by reducing stress, optimizing diet, exercising or using some of these immune enhancing therapies, antibiotics, probiotics/worm therapies. . What you describe above sounds similar to what happens with TB, the body contains or controls the Mycobacteria but doesn’t eliminate it totally, instead forming granuloma’s where the Mycobacteria are "walled" off.  In this case it is not a autoimmune response, however this has yet to be shown to be the case in IBD and most evidence leads to an autoimmune reaction. In an autoimmune response the body’s immune cells react with self-antigens or self-tissue causing destruction and disease symptoms. A person might ask why would my body attack itself?  The answer is something I’ve mentioned before, molecular mimicry, where a foreign organism/virus stimulates an immune response but once the offending organism/virus has been eliminated the immune response continues.  It continues because the body’s cells have antigens similar to those found on the organism/virus and the body simply cannot tell the difference at that point. Stimulating the immune system is only going make this response worse, you have an aggressive immune process already, than stimulating the immune system will only lead to more inflammation, and thus more disease activity.  This is why immune suppression works so well for so many patients with IBD. Now this is the just the average model of IBD and what is thought to happen. Does it happen like this in every case? Probably not, there some cases where it may be like you said, a immune response that is for whatever reason unable to eliminate an organism but not neccessarily self reactive.  However these are probably not in the majority of cases. I don’t want to be painted as someone who isn’t open to new ideas. Probiotics and worm therapies have long sounded promising to me and actually may work in some cases.  I always say there are over 400 species of bacteria in the colon, it’d be hard to believe that they don’t at least play some role in the pathogenesis in IBD. The worm therapy is actually in line with the hygiene theory that has been postulated to be the cause of asthma.  In the past(I don’t mean last year, but hundreds and thousands of years ago)the body encountered countless helminths and other parasites of that nature in the environment. The body evolved very well to deal with these worms, Ig E antibodies and eosinophils, among other components, were produced to eliminate the worms.  As sanitation and hygiene increased in the developed world, helminths and other parasites were all but eliminated leaving the the Ig E antibodies, eosinophils, mast cells etc. without any worms in the gut to eliminate and thus it’s been theorized that these cells and antibodies might be more prone to react with self-tissue.  Asthma and IBD are quite different obviously, but to finish this point, putting "worms" back into the gut might direct the immune response away from the human gut and toward the worms. I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system.

Response:

Bruce wrote…

"I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system."… you’ve got a darn good hope there Bruce, and one I’ll ask for tonight in my prayers… be well and thanks for your thoughts… nite,Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bruce, I’m wondering, why is it that you feel an elevated white blood cell count is indicative of an overactive immune system? Typically, WBC’s are elevated in dealing with a problem and this is a normal immune response. For the record, I never said that a high WBC was indicative of a "over-reactive" immune system but rather that is is often elevated in active cases of IBD, and is just another tool a physician can use to diagnose a patient.  That the problem persists is indicative of a serious and persistent condition, one the immune system is not up to handling without help…  but this does not necessarily prove an immune system run amok.  I think these immune building therapies and lifestyle changes, that have helped people, indicate that maybe our bodies just need help in dealing with a very persistent and aggressive set of circumstances.  I do think that the immune response can and does increase the inflammation when it is unable to defeat the problem and then begins to work against the body, but it is not self-reactive, just overwhelmed.  This would explain why some people gain remission by supporting their immune systems by reducing stress, optimizing diet, exercising or using some of these immune enhancing therapies, antibiotics, probiotics/worm therapies. . What you describe above sounds similar to what happens with TB, the body contains or controls the Mycobacteria but doesn’t eliminate it totally, instead forming granuloma’s where the Mycobacteria are "walled" off.  In this case it is not a autoimmune response, however this has yet to be shown to be the case in IBD and most evidence leads to an autoimmune reaction. In an autoimmune response the body’s immune cells react with self-antigens or self-tissue causing destruction and disease symptoms. A person might ask why would my body attack itself?  The answer is something I’ve mentioned before, molecular mimicry, where a foreign organism/virus stimulates an immune response but once the offending organism/virus has been eliminated the immune response continues.  It continues because the body’s cells have antigens similar to those found on the organism/virus and the body simply cannot tell the difference at that point. Stimulating the immune system is only going make this response worse, you have an aggressive immune process already, than stimulating the immune system will only lead to more inflammation, and thus more disease activity.  This is why immune suppression works so well for so many patients with IBD. Now this is the just the average model of IBD and what is thought to happen. Does it happen like this in every case? Probably not, there some cases where it may be like you said, a immune response that is for whatever reason unable to eliminate an organism but not neccessarily self reactive.  However these are probably not in the majority of cases. I don’t want to be painted as someone who isn’t open to new ideas. Probiotics and worm therapies have long sounded promising to me and actually may work in some cases.  I always say there are over 400 species of bacteria in the colon, it’d be hard to believe that they don’t at least play some role in the pathogenesis in IBD. The worm therapy is actually in line with the hygiene theory that has been postulated to be the cause of asthma.  In the past(I don’t mean last year, but hundreds and thousands of years ago)the body encountered countless helminths and other parasites of that nature in the environment. The body evolved very well to deal with these worms, Ig E antibodies and eosinophils, among other components, were produced to eliminate the worms.  As sanitation and hygiene increased in the developed world, helminths and other parasites were all but eliminated leaving the the Ig E antibodies, eosinophils, mast cells etc. without any worms in the gut to eliminate and thus it’s been theorized that these cells and antibodies might be more prone to react with self-tissue.  Asthma and IBD are quite different obviously, but to finish this point, putting "worms" back into the gut might direct the immune response away from the human gut and toward the worms. I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system.

Response:

Hi Bruce, I’m wondering, why is it that you feel an elevated white blood cell count is indicative of an overactive immune system? Typically, WBC’s are elevated in dealing with a problem and this is a normal immune response.

For the record, I never said that a high WBC was indicative of a "over-reactive" immune system but rather that is is often elevated in active cases of IBD, and is just another tool a physician can use to diagnose a patient.  That the problem persists is indicative of a serious and persistent condition, one the immune system is not up to handling without help…  but this does not necessarily prove an immune system run amok.  I think these immune building therapies and lifestyle changes, that have helped people, indicate that maybe our bodies just need help in dealing with a very persistent and aggressive set of circumstances.  I do think that the immune response can and does increase the inflammation when it is unable to defeat the problem and then begins to work against the body, but it is not self-reactive, just overwhelmed.  This would explain why some people gain remission by supporting their immune systems by reducing stress, optimizing diet, exercising or using some of these immune enhancing therapies, antibiotics, probiotics/worm therapies.

. What you describe above sounds similar to what happens with TB, the body contains or controls the Mycobacteria but doesn’t eliminate it totally, instead forming granuloma’s where the Mycobacteria are "walled" off.  In this case it is not a autoimmune response, however this has yet to be shown to be the case in IBD and most evidence leads to an autoimmune reaction. In an autoimmune response the body’s immune cells react with self-antigens or self-tissue causing destruction and disease symptoms. A person might ask why would my body attack itself?  The answer is something I’ve mentioned before, molecular mimicry, where a foreign organism/virus stimulates an immune response but once the offending organism/virus has been eliminated the immune response continues.  It continues because the body’s cells have antigens similar to those found on the organism/virus and the body simply cannot tell the difference at that point. Stimulating the immune system is only going make this response worse, you have an aggressive immune process already, than stimulating the immune system will only lead to more inflammation, and thus more disease activity.  This is why immune suppression works so well for so many patients with IBD. Now this is the just the average model of IBD and what is thought to happen. Does it happen like this in every case? Probably not, there some cases where it may be like you said, a immune response that is for whatever reason unable to eliminate an organism but not neccessarily self reactive.  However these are probably not in the majority of cases. I don’t want to be painted as someone who isn’t open to new ideas. Probiotics and worm therapies have long sounded promising to me and actually may work in some cases.  I always say there are over 400 species of bacteria in the colon, it’d be hard to believe that they don’t at least play some role in the pathogenesis in IBD. The worm therapy is actually in line with the hygiene theory that has been postulated to be the cause of asthma.  In the past(I don’t mean last year, but hundreds and thousands of years ago)the body encountered countless helminths and other parasites of that nature in the environment. The body evolved very well to deal with these worms, Ig E antibodies and eosinophils, among other components, were produced to eliminate the worms.  As sanitation and hygiene increased in the developed world, helminths and other parasites were all but eliminated leaving the the Ig E antibodies, eosinophils, mast cells etc. without any worms in the gut to eliminate and thus it’s been theorized that these cells and antibodies might be more prone to react with self-tissue.  Asthma and IBD are quite different obviously, but to finish this point, putting "worms" back into the gut might direct the immune response away from the human gut and toward the worms. I don’t know anymore than you do what causes IBD, there are lots of plausible theories out there. Hopefully one of these days we’ll get a breakthrough or at least a medication that doesn’t require the suppression of a normal or beneficial component of the immune system.

Response:

Hi Bruce, I’m wondering, why is it that you feel an elevated white blood cell count is indicative of an overactive immune system? Typically, WBC’s are elevated in dealing with a problem and this is a normal immune response.  That the problem persists is indicative of a serious and persistent condition, one the immune system is not up to handling without help…  but this does not necessarily prove an immune system run amok.  I think these immune building therapies and lifestyle changes, that have helped people, indicate that maybe our bodies just need help in dealing with a very persistent and aggressive set of circumstances.  I do think that the immune response can and does increase the inflammation when it is unable to defeat the problem and then begins to work against the body, but it is not self-reactive, just overwhelmed.  This would explain why some people gain remission by supporting their immune systems by reducing stress, optimizing diet, exercising or using some of these immune enhancing therapies, antibiotics, probiotics/worm therapies. Some people get results by reducing the inflammation directly or by forcing a disconnect of some immune responses, but I personally wonder if this doesn’t leave a persistent problem behind, because long term use of such therapies always seem to fail and lead to multiple surgeries.  I think this disease needs to focus on the breakdown in the mucosal barrier that should keep food proteins and bacteria within the gut… once you have food proteins and bacteria in the gut lining and in the bloodstream, you develop auto-immune responses, those pesky little antigens running around… ever wonder why so many auto-immune diseases wind up in folks with other auto-immune diseases?  What about that arthritis?  It’s called intestinal permeability… look for it, as it turns up in a lot of abstracts.  Decrease the permeability and the symptoms improve…  a lot of things can help decrease the permeability and they SEEM conflicting, but they aren’t… because they are just limiting some symptoms that increase permeability… unfortunately, they leave behind the root problem which is probably a gene sequence or maybe viral agent that keeps triggering and starts everything up all over again. The good news here is, that these triggers seem to me to be often environmental/lifestyle… and that is why we always hear about people who, like DaveA in this post, take control of their disease with exercise, or stress management, diet,  and even worm therapy.   Our bodies are pushed to the max in resisting incredible changes in our environment and lifestyle over the last century, and it is little wonder that disease rates are increasing dramatically.   we can fight back in ways that will complement and extend the benefits of these new drug treatments… our bodies have not so much run amok as they have been assaulted. In analyzing any disease, it is important to develop a model that incorporates the many (sometimes seemingly conflicting) elements that emerge in the symptomology/treatment of that condition. Bruce, many things are happening and many things are pushing that old model ,  don’t turn your back on these things simply because they don’t conform to an old rule… the fat lady ain’t sung yet!!! Have a good one, Wayne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ? There was an article a couple of months ago that showed some evidence that stimulating the immune system with granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor(GM-CSF), could be a potential treatment for some patients with Crohn’s.  This is still very controversial and hasn’t undergone extensive testing yet. Unless you are enrolled in a clinical trial testing this cytokine then you probably won’t be able to get it to treat your IBD. The current theory still remains that a self-reactive immune response results in UC or Crohn’s.  Since it is an inflammatory response that causes the damage and destruction seen in IBD, it also indicates that an "over-active" immune response is to blame.  Quite often if you get a complete blood count while you have an active case of IBD, your white blood cell counts will be on the higher end of the scale. I know it sucks that general immune suppression is often part of a treatment regimen, since the inflammation is usually confined to the bowel, but currently it’s the best medicine can do since we still don’t understand IBD very clearly at the molecular level. New drugs however, particularly the monoclonal antibody drugs are at least starting to address these issues as some of the new ones will attempt to inhibit only those white blood cells involved directly in the inflammatory process.

Response:

Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ?

Response:

Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ?

Yes!  after looking at both sides of the coin… it was a pretty simple choice. Ken.W  7 Years Med free

Response:

As a matter of fact there is a new clinical trial going on right now. Use www.google.com and search leukine and crohns. Leukine stimulates the immune system. Mike F

Response:

Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ?

There was an article a couple of months ago that showed some evidence that stimulating the immune system with granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor(GM-CSF), could be a potential treatment for some patients with Crohn’s.  This is still very controversial and hasn’t undergone extensive testing yet. Unless you are enrolled in a clinical trial testing this cytokine then you probably won’t be able to get it to treat your IBD. The current theory still remains that a self-reactive immune response results in UC or Crohn’s.  Since it is an inflammatory response that causes the damage and destruction seen in IBD, it also indicates that an "over-active" immune response is to blame.  Quite often if you get a complete blood count while you have an active case of IBD, your white blood cell counts will be on the higher end of the scale. I know it sucks that general immune suppression is often part of a treatment regimen, since the inflammation is usually confined to the bowel, but currently it’s the best medicine can do since we still don’t understand IBD very clearly at the molecular level. New drugs however, particularly the monoclonal antibody drugs are at least starting to address these issues as some of the new ones will attempt to inhibit only those white blood cells involved directly in the inflammatory process.

Response:

i heard about it in a study is all. jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ?

Response:

Has anyone had – or heard – of any successes in treating CD by boosting – rather than suppressing – the immune system ?

Hi I have had success by boosting my immune system through exercise. I’ve had CD about 13 years. For the first six or seven years I was not good. About 6   years ago my blood count was low and even running 20m tired me. I was prescribed a course of iron injections. It gave me a bit of energy boost. I decided enough was enough. I bought an exercise bike and did 10mins every few days. I increased the amount over time. I then joined a gym. Even when I had the pain I still went to the gym (even if I didn’t acheive much). Over time I increased the amount I did. It wasn’t easy but I’m a determined sod. Today I have no symptoms at all. I train six times a week and have run a half marathon to raise money for Crohns research. I strongly believe it’s because my immune system is as strong as an ox that I am so well. It’s through exercise that my immune system is so strong. My regime can’t be for everyone and I’m not forcing it on anyone so please don’t be offended. But I really do believe that this new drug treatment ‘luk-something-or-other’ will be another string in the bow of Crohns treatments. Dave

Response:

Question:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:ao3vr9$dtc$1@bob.news.rcn.net…

who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions?

I have antiphospholipid syndrome (Hughes) and my rheumatologist says "perhaps a touch of lupus" (LOL)  can’t get too definite about these things!!!  I guess count me as a yes Lyndal

Response:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message: who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions?

</snip

I have sle with discoid rashes – (+ raynauds and  sjogrens – both secondary to sle). — from Shelagh Co-ordinator Of Valley-Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus Subgroup of BC Lupus Society http://www.bclupus.org/ and Lupus Canada http://www.lupuscanada.org/

Response:

Hi Jules, I haven’t been diagnosed with Lupus, but seem to have had a few Lupus-like symptoms.  I have been diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis.

1.    Do you have allergies?

Not as far as I know.   Do have reactions to Sulpha drugs – seem to have drug sensitivity.  Water causes rashes (may be from our old pipes).

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

No.

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic

reactions? No anaphylactic reactions.  Just intollerance to certain foods. Peanuts (last time I had peanuts in cookies – ended up vomitting, strawberries, eggs, alpha sprouts (these I don’t eat ever!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post

here or email

me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for

possible research

papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

Hi Jules SLE and Sjogrens here as far as autoimmune goes ~ Sal

Response:

In article <ao3vr9$dt…@bob.news.rcn.net

, "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote:

who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions?

ANA and kidney biopsy negative for lupus, positive RA and high ESR; urine very high in IgG; eosinophils high. Kidney biopsy showed as many as three different diseases present. Non-insulin-resistant diabetes type 2. The docs aren’t really sure what’s wrong with me or what to do about it, so my symptoms get treated, and my doctor tries to hide when I come in for an appointment.

Response:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message <news:ao3vr9$dtc$1@bob.news.rcn.net… who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions?

SLE including SCLE rash, Reynaud’s, Sjogren’s, fibromyalgia, hypothyroidism, waiting on results of antiphospholipid antibody testing, new CNS symptoms being examined to rule out MS. Just to keep things interesting, throw in IBS, asthma, allergies (trees, grasses, cats, iodine, sulfa, methotrexate), migraines, endometriosis, early menopause, hmmm…. I’m forgetting a couple of things… mild Meniere’s… @:-) Rebecca in Denver

Response:

Yes, environmental allergies – mold, grass, dust, cats, dogs,etc… Tetracycline causes a rash Yes, had test done years ago, and took allergy shots for about 2 years. No anaphlactic food allerties. Although, when I had my scratch test done, I had a reaction to milk, peanuts, and eggs!!  Eggs were the highest of the three. dawn "REP" <r…@inanna.com

wrote in message

news:rep-ya02408000R1010020327050001@news.sf.sbcglobal.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

1.    Do you have allergies? Yes. Medicines: Allopurinol, Penicillin, Ceclor and sulphas. Penicillin

and

Ceclor cause severe asthma attacks; all cause rashes. Allergic to grass, trees, roses, mold and mildly allergic to cats (have cats anyway!) 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? Long time ago, for non-medicinal allergies. 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic

reactions?

Not anaphylactic, but allergic to: apricots, apple skin, cherries.

Apricots

and cherries make my throat itch badly, and apricots cause wheezing. If I bite into a whole apple, my gums swell badly, but if I cut an apple up, no problems. I have a severe GI reaction to lettuce and grapes (immediate voiding), but I have an unspecified small bowel problem characeterized by swelling of the terminal ilieum, hypermotility, intense pain, chronic

fever

and chronic diarrhea that is currently being called Crohn’s disease. And I don’t have SLE, just a lot of things that act like lupus.

Response:

In article <Afcp9.50091$g9.145…@newsfeeds.bigpond.com

, Lyndal Parker-

Newlyn and Phill Newlyn <l.p.new…@bigpond.com

wrote

[

no anaphylaxis to foods, but metabisulphite allergies.  Naturally occur in stone fruits, preservative inmany dried and cikled foods, wine, sauces etc. I can get away with a small amount (handful of dried apricots, 1 peach, 1 small glass wine ) if I go over that I get wheezy , flushed and itchy

I vaguely recall that "organic wine" doesn't have metabi preservative. You may wish to do some in-depth research on that...

Am I a pain in the backside or what??!!

what -- Andy [Editor, Austrian Philatelic Society] For Austrian philately <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps

For Lupus <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus

For my other interests <URL:http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk

Response:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:ao23in$747$1@bob.news.rcn.net…

Hi everyone, As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a

frequent

poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies?

Yes

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

Yes

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions?

Some spices, cumin and wintergreen spring to mind (forgive please, I’m exhausted and stressed out).bee and ant stings, also, many meds, petro products, perfumes, there are more – I just cannot think straight right now.

Response:

"JRogow" <JRo…@Ridgenet.net

wrote in message:

 |(forgive please, I’m | exhausted and stressed out). |- I just cannot think straight right now. </snip

Hey there Judity, Are you ok? You don’t sound okay to me…. make sure you take care of yourself and don’t burn the candle at both ends… nothing is worth getting sick over… including work assignments! Be careful and keep us all up on what you are doing and how you are doing, really. Don’t stress out and DO get lots of rest and ‘down time’ for your bod! Worrying about you after that post! You sound brain-fogged and  tired out! (((Judity))) — from Shelagh Co-ordinator Of Valley-Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus Subgroup of BC Lupus Society http://www.bclupus.org/ and Lupus Canada http://www.lupuscanada.org/

Response:

I have SLE, P.A, Hashimotos. BJ-Sk.Canada "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:ao3vr9$dtc$1@bob.news.rcn.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> who does, and doesn’t have lupus? > SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions? > "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

> news:ao23in$747$1@bob.news.rcn.net… > > Hi everyone, > > As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is

in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a frequent poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies? 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post here or email me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible

research

papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

Jules wrote:

who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions?

Good one !  There was another one I thought of, that you might want to include, but now I forget. When I saw this post, I chuckled. Reminded me when I was building databases at work. I learned an important lesson. Plan Ahead ; J

Response:

On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:28:18 -0400, "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote:

1.    Do you have allergies?

yup.

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

only if you count "hmmm, can I eat this?" <hurl, gag, writhe in agony

"Nope."  :-)

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions?

no anaphylaxis as yet.  Allergic to peanuts and to onion. cause projectile vomiting, severe gut spasms and other unpleasant digestive problems. my official dx is "undifferentiated Connective Tissue Disease".

Response:

On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:02:25 -0400, "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote:

quick question: is the alfalfa allergy the general lupus patient intolerance, or is it an allergic reaction?

this is a general statement. I recognize that Shelagh’s allergy is different from this. The reason why lupus patients (and most autoimmune patients really) should avoid alfalfa in quantity is that it contains an amino-acid that actually increases inflammation.  In high doses this could mean a flare.  People do not always realize there is alfalfa in a lot of supplements.  So while a sandwich with sprouts now and then shouldn’t be an issue, daily intake certainly could be.  This is true for other legumes but alfalfa has the highest concentration of this amino acid (l-canavanine).

Response:

1.  yes — pollens (grasses, trees, etc), molds, cats (although we have two) 2.  yes 3.  no — no known sensitivies to /flares from alfalfa, etc. CP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jules wrote:

Hi everyone, As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a frequent poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies? 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post here or email me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible research papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message is the alfalfa

allergy the general lupus patient intolerance, or is it an

allergic reaction?

</snip

Hi again Julia, I know that all lupus patients are intolerant to the ’sprout’ foods, especially alfalfa and bean sprouts; however I am ‘allergic’ to the alfalfa itself, systemically, in that it makes me ‘rash out’, throwup, feverish and in general puts me into a full-bodied illness that is referred to as an ‘allergy’ by the docs. and I am to avoid it like the plague.  (to me it is like entering a lupus flare only the pred. etc. doesn’t have much effect.) Hope that helps you. (BTW the sulpha actually did much the same and again I was put into ‘allergy’ classification as opposed to only the lupus intolerance; the metals are contact-cutaneous allergies as well as subcutaneous.) ~GOOD LUCK!~ from Shelagh Co-ordinator Of Valley-Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus Subgroup of BC Lupus Society http://www.bclupus.org/ and Lupus Canada http://www.lupuscanada.org/

Response:

Hi Jules Congrats on the grad school starting!

1.    Do you have allergies?

 yes … to cat hair (uh, now I have a dog, it is more dog hair *sigh* still love em though), those lemon/citrus based cleaning products that were recently mentioned in another post (can’t breathe/headaches), certain plants; we have native shrubs here like grevillae/bottlebrush (bad news!) lilies, aloe vera is real bad … blisters my skin, most scented/coloured creams I get rashy, SSRI meds are a no-no got every adverse reaction in the book, powdered gloves at work is another one, and the anti-microbial soaps they insist on using there (contact dermatitis), scrubbing in betadine not a chance, use chlorhexidine instead.

2.    Have you had allergy testing done? no … did enough of that

pruning the bottlebrush tree one day lol, the rest has been by trial and error, dermatologist said contact dermatitis and left it at that

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic

reactions? have to watch out for MSG added to food, rotten headaches and nausea

I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible

research

papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence.

Sounds interesting! Keep us posted! ~ Sal

Response:

who does, and doesn’t have lupus? SLE or discoid?  other autoimmune conditions? "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:ao23in$747$1@bob.news.rcn.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi everyone, As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a

frequent

poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies? 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post here or

email

me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible research papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

1.    Do you have allergies?

yes –     anaphylaxis + asthma to aspirin, NSAIDS, penicillin, sulpha             rash from codeine pethidine morphine             asthma to metabisulphite preservatives in foods (although this has improved ++ with singulair)             contact dermatitis from nickel containing metals, rashes from some perfumes and cosmetics

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

yes – negative to the usual molds, animals, birds grass etc         positive contact reaction to nickel         attempted aspirin desensitisation program by allergist(when I needed anticoagulation) but could not overcome anaphylaxis

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions?

no anaphylaxis to foods, but metabisulphite allergies.  Naturally occur in stone fruits, preservative inmany dried and cikled foods, wine, sauces etc. I can get away with a small amount (handful of dried apricots, 1 peach, 1 small glass wine ) if I go over that I get wheezy , flushed and itchy Am I a pain in the backside or what??!! LPN

Response:

1.    Do you have allergies?

Yes. Medicines: Allopurinol, Penicillin, Ceclor and sulphas. Penicillin and Ceclor cause severe asthma attacks; all cause rashes. Allergic to grass, trees, roses, mold and mildly allergic to cats (have cats anyway!)

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

Long time ago, for non-medicinal allergies.

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions?

Not anaphylactic, but allergic to: apricots, apple skin, cherries. Apricots and cherries make my throat itch badly, and apricots cause wheezing. If I bite into a whole apple, my gums swell badly, but if I cut an apple up, no problems. I have a severe GI reaction to lettuce and grapes (immediate voiding), but I have an unspecified small bowel problem characeterized by swelling of the terminal ilieum, hypermotility, intense pain, chronic fever and chronic diarrhea that is currently being called Crohn’s disease. And I don’t have SLE, just a lot of things that act like lupus.

Response:

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message:

 

1.    Do you have allergies?

</snip

Yes….. sulpha drugs,  all metals (except gold)

2.    Have you had allergy testing done?

</snip

No testing…. just dxd by my allergic reactions to above.

3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic

reactions? </snip

alfalfa sprouts and no anaphylactic reactions… just major flare. Good to ’see’ you again and good luck with your classes and your research! Be sure to keep us all updated. — from Shelagh Co-ordinator Of Valley-Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus Subgroup of BC Lupus Society http://www.bclupus.org/ and Lupus Canada http://www.lupuscanada.org/

Response:

Answer for me to all the questions are NOPE.. sorry that is to the point.  LOL so far I have been lucky.  Only thing I am allergic to is medications. Plaquenil, demerol and percodan… ugh make me sick janers

Response:

thanks… I’ll keep you posted on what I find/think of. quick question: is the alfalfa allergy the general lupus patient intolerance, or is it an allergic reaction? back to studying… does it ever end? ~julia "Shelagh" <valleylu…@telus.net

wrote in message

news:mg1p9.514$wU3.23826@news0.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

"Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com wrote in message:   1.    Do you have allergies? </snip Yes….. sulpha drugs,  all metals (except gold) 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? </snip No testing…. just dxd by my allergic reactions to above. 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? </snip alfalfa sprouts and no anaphylactic reactions… just major flare. Good to ’see’ you again and good luck with your classes and your research! Be sure to keep us all updated. — from Shelagh Co-ordinator Of Valley-Lupus – Invisible in Plain Sight http://www3.telus.net/valleylupus Subgroup of BC Lupus Society http://www.bclupus.org/ and Lupus Canada http://www.lupuscanada.org/

Response:

Hi everyone, As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a frequent poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies? 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post here or email me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible research papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

Hi Julia, The answers to your questions are: yes, yes, yes ( anaphylactic to only one food) I hope this helps. I have always wondered if there is a connection to allergies and autoimmune diseases. Perhaps you will find the answer. BJ-Sk. Canada "Jules" <itsjul…@hotmail.com

wrote in message

news:ao23in$747$1@bob.news.rcn.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Hi everyone, As some of you know I’m just starting grad school again and my interest is in autoimmune conditions as well as a few other things.  I’m not a

frequent

poster but am around from time to time — school’s so chaotic these days that I’m crashing every day afterwards to avoid a flare (if that’s even possible). 1.    Do you have allergies? 2.    Have you had allergy testing done? 3.     Do you have any food allergies?  are they anaphylactic reactions? that’s all.  I would really appreciate responses – either post here or

email

me: itsjulesyNOS…@hotmail.com  (remove the NOSPAM) I’ve got a few little ideas churning away in my mind for possible research papers, but wanted to get some idea of the prevalence. thanks so much! take care, julia

Response:

Question:

What is sauce for the goose may be sauce for the gander but is not necessarily sauce for the chicken, the duck, the turkey or the guinea hen. Alice B. Toklas

I think this just sums up the sauce and good.

Response:

Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce. Is there such a thing as a Michigoose? No, but there is plenty of mishegoss..

…and attendant geshreying out loud…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce. Is there such a thing as a Michigoose? No, but there is plenty of mishegoss.. …and attendant geshreying out loud…

hochen a chainik, as it were. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce. Is there such a thing as a Michigoose?

No, but there is plenty of mishegoss..

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I thought it was what is good for the goose is good for the gander.What does sauce in this respect mean whereever you are from? I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." Anyone else?     Lp Yes, I have heard it that way as well, but not always.

What is sauce for the goose may be sauce for the gander but is not necessarily sauce for the chicken, the duck, the turkey or the guinea hen. Alice B. Toklas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." It could be the part of the country you live in as this is the first time I have heard it expressed this way. I am an old southern boy. Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce. I’m from California and always said "good", however sauce was probably the first usage, if the following is accurate: WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER What is good for one is good for the other … equality with no regard to gender. The expression is referenced in English Rogue, Head and Kirkman (1671): "I could not justly complain seeing what was sauce for a goose was sauce for the gander."

You’ve just pretty well discovered my age, haven’t you?     Larry

Response:

Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce.

Is there such a thing as a Michigoose?

Response:

You’ve just pretty well discovered my age, haven’t you?    Larry

Whatever your age, you are very well Preusserved.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I thought it was what is good for the goose is good for the gander.What does sauce in this respect mean whereever you are from? I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." Anyone else?     Lp

Yes, I have heard it that way as well, but not always.

Response:

I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose."

It could be the part of the country you live in as this is the first time I have heard it expressed this way. I am an old southern boy.

Response:

I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." It could be the part of the country you live in as this is the first time I have heard it expressed this way. I am an old southern boy.

Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce. — Lisa M. DeSavage Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." It could be the part of the country you live in as this is the first time I have heard it expressed this way. I am an old southern boy. Nope.  I’m a Michigander like Larry.  always said "good"  not sauce.

I’m from California and always said "good", however sauce was probably the first usage, if the following is accurate: WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER What is good for one is good for the other … equality with no regard to gender. The expression is referenced in English Rogue, Head and Kirkman (1671): "I could not justly complain seeing what was sauce for a goose was sauce for the gander."

Response:

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I thought it was what is good for the goose is good for the gander.What does sauce in this respect mean whereever you are from?

Response:

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I thought it was what is good for the goose is good for the gander.What does sauce in this respect mean whereever you are from?

I have always heard it as "sauce for the goose." Anyone else?     Lp

Response:

Well no. At least two prominent doctors in the past did eat their words or should have done so. Probably the proportion is very much higher among dabblers and dilettanti. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You said regarding your postings in favour of Buteyko that you were talking nonsense. Well guess what? You are still talking nonsense Thanks for your eternal and untiring efforts to give asthmatics a vivid picture of quackery by practical demonstration. All extremely indigestible, but maybe worth while in the long run at some stretch of imagination. Hence the harking back to "The Compleat Angler" by  Izaak Walton, on fish and fishing and not on quack spotting. If Carl Sagan were still alive, he might have given us a special chronic disease version of the "Baloney Detection Kit" as follows. (The Kit was derivied from his wrtiings  by someone else). Beware of: Claims that the cure is not able to be debunked, i. e. is not falsifiable Confidence tricks such as demonstrating some  misleadingly therapeutic effect "which the doctors never tell you about" such as getting an analgesic effect from   breathing slowly and accumulating carbon dioxide. (Take a look at CBI’s comment "Morphine will make those in respiratory distress feel better too. I would say it would probably make you feel better than conventional asthma treatments for the short term."  FYI, morphine is a well known pain killing substance.) The confidence trickster does not stick to his guns and avoids any sort of cross examination on his claims. Reliance on obscure texts, (such as a Russian one highlighting an alleged importance of carbamates in asthma. But maybe, quite apart from having givenus the Buteyko Fiasco,  B. deserves some credit for having been the first to discover these compounds!!) A mystical, soliloquizingly uncertain approach. Reliance on outlandish notions (such as "deep breathing" to mean non-acute hyperventilation, which is in any case a red hering and) as a cultiist’s tactic to create cognitive dissonance. BTW, for anybody intersted in a med-free treatment for asthma, consider SIMT which has been shown by orthodox research scientits to produce improvements in hard data, which are what doctors are looking for. The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

You said regarding your postings in favour of Buteyko that you were talking nonsense. Well guess what? You are still talking nonsense

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for your eternal and untiring efforts to give asthmatics a vivid picture of quackery by practical demonstration. All extremely indigestible, but maybe worth while in the long run at some stretch of imagination. Hence the harking back to "The Compleat Angler" by  Izaak Walton, on fish and fishing and not on quack spotting. If Carl Sagan were still alive, he might have given us a special chronic disease version of the "Baloney Detection Kit" as follows. (The Kit was derivied from his wrtiings  by someone else). Beware of: Claims that the cure is not able to be debunked, i. e. is not falsifiable Confidence tricks such as demonstrating some  misleadingly therapeutic effect "which the doctors never tell you about" such as getting an analgesic effect from   breathing slowly and accumulating carbon dioxide. (Take a look at CBI’s comment "Morphine will make those in respiratory distress feel better too. I would say it would probably make you feel better than conventional asthma treatments for the short term."  FYI, morphine is a well known pain killing substance.) The confidence trickster does not stick to his guns and avoids any sort of cross examination on his claims. Reliance on obscure texts, (such as a Russian one highlighting an alleged importance of carbamates in asthma. But maybe, quite apart from having givenus the Buteyko Fiasco,  B. deserves some credit for having been the first to discover these compounds!!) A mystical, soliloquizingly uncertain approach. Reliance on outlandish notions (such as "deep breathing" to mean non-acute hyperventilation, which is in any case a red hering and) as a cultiist’s tactic to create cognitive dissonance. BTW, for anybody intersted in a med-free treatment for asthma, consider SIMT which has been shown by orthodox research scientits to produce improvements in hard data, which are what doctors are looking for. The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

The respiratory mechanics are so delicately balanced that once one becomes aware of their breathing, they will do it improperly.

I have done this myself when under stress.

Response:

        FAQ Peter Kolb Royal Perth Hospital http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=428A700836748.4868981481%40anonym ous.poster&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain give son chronic hyperventilation: Alex was a very angry little kid and had a dreadful temper. One night I put him into the Bathroom all night. I removed toilet rolls, dangerous objects, anything he could destroy and just left him in there kicking at the door and screaming. We never had a problem with him again after that.

Response:

Thanks for your eternal and untiring efforts to give asthmatics a vivid picture of quackery by practical demonstration. All extremely indigestible, but maybe worth while in the long run at some stretch of imagination. Hence the harking back to "The Compleat Angler" by  Izaak Walton, on fish and fishing and not on quack spotting. If Carl Sagan were still alive, he might have given us a special chronic disease version of the "Baloney Detection Kit" as follows. (The Kit was derivied from his wrtiings  by someone else). Beware of: Claims that the cure is not able to be debunked, i. e. is not falsifiable Confidence tricks such as demonstrating some  misleadingly therapeutic effect "which the doctors never tell you about" such as getting an analgesic effect from   breathing slowly and accumulating carbon dioxide. (Take a look at CBI’s comment "Morphine will make those in respiratory distress feel better too. I would say it would probably make you feel better than conventional asthma treatments for the short term."  FYI, morphine is a well known pain killing substance.) The confidence trickster does not stick to his guns and avoids any sort of cross examination on his claims. Reliance on obscure texts, (such as a Russian one highlighting an alleged importance of carbamates in asthma. But maybe, quite apart from having givenus the Buteyko Fiasco,  B. deserves some credit for having been the first to discover these compounds!!) A mystical, soliloquizingly uncertain approach. Reliance on outlandish notions (such as "deep breathing" to mean non-acute hyperventilation, which is in any case a red hering and) as a cultiist’s tactic to create cognitive dissonance. BTW, for anybody intersted in a med-free treatment for asthma, consider SIMT which has been shown by orthodox research scientits to produce improvements in hard data, which are what doctors are looking for. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

As it is almost inconceivable that one would deliberately underbreath when under stress, hyperventilation is the result.

Overbreathing would seem to be a sign of weakness in a face to face conflict, a fight out. Breathing techniques are for example included in courses offered for dealing with fear of flying. Mind and body synergize to give control. To take a non-asthma example, forcing a smile influences your feelings. The mind tells the body what to do and the body obliges by affecting the mind. The mind is not solely and completely in control.  By extension, you cannot compare using asthma meds with fitting spare parts to your car (this would be the biomedical model). Maybe I was once a typical example of the bias towards meds.  Confronted by a chest doc with the choice of meds, relaxation training and psychotherapy for my asthma I felt insulted by anything other than the meds option. Was this the most crippling symptom of the disease? The pharmaceuticals industry profits from it quite a bit and who is really to condemn it? "Know thyself" as the saying goes. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Scientifically trained physiologists and physicians recognize acute hyperventilation as a response to, rather than a cause of, asthma. The most appropriate therapy is explanation and encouragement, so that those suffering from the acute CO2-depletion symptoms recognize the benign nature of the problem.   Just as the term allergy has been misused by many who are referring to everything from sunburn to Mondays at work, hyperventilation syndrome has been misused by those with fanciful concepts of pulmonary physiology – we have lost another specific and useful word.     Larry

Response:

This article, if found at all, probably says you can treat asthma by consciously concentrating on training breathing to stop one symptom of the disease, namely excessive carbon dioxide loss. Probably there is the highly ideological approach (thanks be to God that I’m not ideological one bit!) that more carbon dioxide is a sovereign remedy for a whole host of diseases. There does not appear to be any scientific evidence that this is a sound approach on asthma.

  I am very sorry to see this term taken over by a group of one-size-fits-all explainers of asthma. All chest physicians, as a matter of fact all physicians, deal with people with acute hyperventilation. Most of it is produced by anxiety, often by anxiety about the very real difficulty they are having breathing. The respiratory mechanics are so delicately balanced that once one becomes aware of their breathing, they will do it improperly. As it is almost inconceivable that one would deliberately underbreath when under stress, hyperventilation is the result. Scientifically trained physiologists and physicians recognize acute hyperventilation as a response to, rather than a cause of, asthma. The most appropriate therapy is explanation and encouragement, so that those suffering from the acute CO2-depletion symptoms recognize the benign nature of the problem.   Just as the term allergy has been misused by many who are referring to everything from sunburn to Mondays at work, hyperventilation syndrome has been misused by those with fanciful concepts of pulmonary physiology – we have lost another specific and useful word.     Larry

Response:

This article, if found at all, probably says you can treat asthma by consciously concentrating on training breathing to stop one symptom of the disease, namely excessive carbon dioxide loss. Probably there is the highly ideological approach (thanks be to God that I’m not ideological one bit!) that more carbon dioxide is a sovereign remedy for a whole host of diseases. There does not appear to be any scientific evidence that this is a sound approach on asthma. A popular work on the "hyperventilation syndrome" by Dinah Bradley, like anything else I’ve seen on the subject, leaves one in the dark as to why diaphragmatic breathing, suggested as a remedy, should be curative. Reading the book, it is not possible to see why (a) breathing with the diaphragm should have any different effect to (b) breathing with the rib muscles.  They both expand the lungs. The bottom line is that one has got to breathe less. Why should a switch from rib to diaphragmatic breathing be any use here? The basic theory therefore seems to be generally misleading, even although diaphragmatic breathing is accepted in mainstream health care as being therapeutic for asthma. The hyperventilation syndrome approach seems to be a question of recommending the right thing for the wrong reason and with ineffective methods. Bradley’s methods for switching to diaphragmatic breathing include (1) lying on the back and moving a weight on the belly up and down by breathing and furthermore (2) suppressing upper chest breathing. A logically and scientifically presented diaphragm training protocol is to be found in the medical journal Chest (1992, 1357-61) for some (like me) to pin their faith on. In this case scientific principles of muscle training are used, namely by loading the breathing muscles by increasing the work of breathing on inspiration, as opposed to simply putting a weight on the abdomen like Bradley and many others recommend. The work or effort of breathing is increased by breathing in through a resistance. Muscles are recruited for a particular task. This preferentially trains the diaphragm. The article points out that diaphragmatic breathing opens the lungs better than merely chest breathing and overcomes the resistance due to asthma. It seems that the one key aim of those believing in the existence of a "hyperventilation syndrome", namely improving diaphragmatic breathing with benefits for asthma are much more easily and scientifically achieved by the loading techniques as advocated in the Chest article. For suitable devices, do a Net search with the words "inspiratory" plus "asthma" to review the claims of various manufacturers, and not forgetting that a similar inspiratory resistance effect can be gotten by breathing in (but not out) through a 1/8 inch bar straw. In particular Dr. Alison McConnell of Birmingham University (England) has published a lot on the subject. Like Peter I do think that asthma has somehow gotten out of hand. There is a much wider issue involved.  See http://www.cyclery.com/lists/coaching/coaching-archive-hyper/coaching… for correspondence on the Olympic Games at Lillehammer 1994. A truly interdisciplinary  scrutiny of the role of relievers and preventers seems called for, last but not least because muscle training, when scaled up, might be better than these popular "asthma drugs" (NEJM) and might POSSIBLY BE REASONABLY SAFE. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma. Peter Kolb Free information provided by grateful ex-asthmatics     http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm

Response:

The British Holistic Medical Association, in its latest journal "Holistic Health", has just published a series of excellent articles on chronic hyperventilation including how it relates to asthma.

We would rather see some actual evidence that ‘chronic hyperventilation’ exists. So far you have had almost 50 years and you still cannot demonstrate that it even exists. "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Carl Sagan

Response:

Question:

        I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve.         Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid.         My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Antonio, You must have us mixed up with another group, there are 2 pain groups.  This one has only been active about a year.  Although our sense of humor may irritate you, to most of us it is a way to relieve the tenison of our pains. Anyway, I have only  been on Skelaxin and Norco nothing stronger.  I have not been on OC or Kadian, so I cannot help you.  Maybe someone else here can. Sharon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Sharon he cross posted this as you can see.  I already answered him over in the dot group. Ronnie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Antonio, You must have us mixed up with another group, there are 2 pain groups. This one has only been active about a year.  Although our sense of humor may irritate you, to most of us it is a way to relieve the tenison of our pains. Anyway, I have only  been on Skelaxin and Norco nothing stronger.  I have not been on OC or Kadian, so I cannot help you.  Maybe someone else here can. Sharon I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Well shut my mouth and roll me over, tell me how you know that?  I don’t know how they do it. Sharon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sharon he cross posted this as you can see.  I already answered him over in the dot group. Ronnie Antonio, You must have us mixed up with another group, there are 2 pain groups. This one has only been active about a year.  Although our sense of humor may irritate you, to most of us it is a way to relieve the tenison of our pains. Anyway, I have only  been on Skelaxin and Norco nothing stronger.  I have not been on OC or Kadian, so I cannot help you.  Maybe someone else here can. Sharon I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

By looking at the newsgroups line.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well shut my mouth and roll me over, tell me how you know that?  I don’t know how they do it. Sharon Sharon he cross posted this as you can see.  I already answered him over in the dot group. Ronnie Antonio, You must have us mixed up with another group, there are 2 pain groups. This one has only been active about a year.  Although our sense of humor may irritate you, to most of us it is a way to relieve the tenison of our pains. Anyway, I have only  been on Skelaxin and Norco nothing stronger.  I have not been on OC or Kadian, so I cannot help you.  Maybe someone else here can. Sharon I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

HMMM AOL must have left off MY newsgroup line!! rb Hawki…..the nurse practitioner

Response:

I have another kind of drug interaction problem: because of chronic fatigue I never get enough sleep, so I’m on trazodone. But when the pain meds run out, the trazodone just stops working for me.

I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and

hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really

different. I talked to my – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

This group is alot lot lot older than a year (active). But I agree it has not changed ever, not a single day. It is rare to see any other focus to this group than what you are seeing now. Entertaining and a little helpfull/halffull.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Antonio, You must have us mixed up with another group, there are 2 pain groups. This one has only been active about a year.  Although our sense of humor may irritate you, to most of us it is a way to relieve the tenison of our pains. Anyway, I have only  been on Skelaxin and Norco nothing stronger.  I have not been on OC or Kadian, so I cannot help you.  Maybe someone else here can. Sharon I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Narcotic Analgesic use can cause drowsiness and very short periods of sleep-resulting in sleep loss at night. We see this more common with the MS Contin and Oxycontin, because of the delay-release formulation I’m not that familiar with Kadian, but am following some studies of this formulation, and it does look promising. Hope this is of some help to you. Dave/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Narcotic Analgesic use can cause drowsiness and very short periods of sleep-resulting in sleep loss at night. We see this more common with the MS Contin and Oxycontin, because of the delay-release formulation I’m not that familiar with Kadian, but am following some studies of this formulation, and it does look promising. Hope this is of some help to you. Dave/

        What is it that looks promising? Is it the 24 hour formula or the fact that it might help you sleep better. I kinda always figured that the short acting meds would cause you to wake up more as they wear off after you go to bed. I was thinking about asking doc to change to oramorph or ms contin as I believe these to be less expensive. I do have insurance but I pay 20% of brand names and only $5 for generic.         What would the difference be between taking Kadian versus Ms Contin? Aside from the obvious – taking it more times per day.

Response:

: : Narcotic Analgesic use can cause drowsiness and very short periods of : sleep-resulting in sleep loss at night. We see this more common with the MS : Contin and Oxycontin, because of the delay-release formulation : : I’m not that familiar with Kadian, but am following some studies of this : formulation, and it does look promising. : : Hope this is of some help to you. : Dave/ : : : What is it that looks promising? Is it the 24 hour formula or the fact that : it might help you sleep better. Very good question, and I should have made it in my original post! The longer delay in action seems to avoid peaks and troughs of pain management (i.e.-warring off, and pain waking you up) Also, OxyContin and MS contin do not seem to last 12 hours. 9 is more like it, from my client’s experiences. What looks promising is if the proper dose Kadian is given, the peak is low, effectiveness longer, close to 24 hours, which will allow the return of the normal sleep pattern, stopping the "nodding off" problem with analgesic use. Hope this is helpful. Dave/

Response:

Hey Dave, Since you are discussing the long acting meds, I have a question for you. I can’t take MSContin or OxyContin due to spasms of the sphincter of oddi, but prior to that being a problem, I always had problems with long acting meds (not just opiates…..long acting Ditropan, Macrobid, etc.).  Seems like when I would take a long acting med, I would feel sick…not really sick, but just would feel weird ( I know, that is so descriptive for you …).  It was as if my body just didn’t like the formulation or something….any long acting med, I don’t do well, but the short acting, I am okay. Why is there a difference to my body?  I know they release slowly…do I feel the way I do because of the release mechanism? Robin I am *not* a Medical Doctor (MD) or *any* type of Medical Professional. PLEASE consult your own Dr. for medical advice.  The information posted is what I have learned from researching or personal experiences. Remove "NOSPAM" from addy to email me.

Response:

Just proves that people have different reactions to meds.  I was on Oxy 80mg 3X day w/percodan for breakthru…..I finally had to get off the Oxy.  My system built a tolerance for it and besides I was tired of the side effects. I’ve tried Kadian, 100mg and it did zero for my pain but I have idiopathic neuropathy and as you know nerve pain is very difficult to relieve to a comfortable level….without the sufferer being a zombie or od on meds. Take care and I’m glad the meds. work for you.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve followed this group for a couple of years and posted very sparingly. I would like to proclaim that this group used to be a little more focused on helping people with legitimate pain related questions. I don’t particularly like to see this nonsense constantly receiving the attention it simply does not deserve. Now to the matter at hand (climbing off my soap box). I have been on different mixtures of opiate based pain medications for about 1 1/2 years. Mostly differing strengths of immediate release oxy and hydro. About 4 months ago I started Oxycontin (40 mg every 8 hours) with Skelaxin (#180 limit to 6 per day) and Norco (#300 limit to 10 per day) for rescue doses. During the 2nd month of taking OC I began having a difficult time getting to sleep. I assumed it was the OC since nothing else was really different. I talked to my doc about it and he said some people react to oxy like it is a stimulant. So he put me on Kadian 100 mg at bedtime and cut back OC from tid to bid. My questions: 1 Anybody out there been rx’d a combo like this? 2 Anybody have the stimulant effect with OC? 3 Kadian is suppose to last 24 hours anyone think it actually does? – personally I think it comes a whole lot closer to working for 24 hours than OC does to working 12 hours.

Response:

Robin, I’m afraid that is a question I have no answer for-but will watch the literature for you. I do know that some proton-pump inhibitors (such as Prilosec, Prevacid) can alter gastric acid production enough to prevent dissolution of some medications, sustained release or IR formulas, more so than zantac or pepcid. (BTW, stay away from OTC Tagamet-The drug-drug interactions and metabolism changes keep piling up, so this med. is one to avoid, unless it is the only one you are taking!.) I’ll try to find an answer for you- I agree, this is a puzzle…. Dave/

: Hey Dave, : : Since you are discussing the long acting meds, I have a question for you. : : I can’t take MSContin or OxyContin due to spasms of the sphincter of oddi, but : prior to that being a problem, I always had problems with long acting meds (not : just opiates…..long acting Ditropan, Macrobid, etc.).  Seems like when I : would take a long acting med, I would feel sick…not really sick, but just : would feel weird ( I know, that is so descriptive for you …).  It was as if : my body just didn’t like the formulation or something….any long acting med, I : don’t do well, but the short acting, I am okay. : : Why is there a difference to my body?  I know they release slowly…do I feel : the way I do because of the release mechanism? : : Robin : : I am *not* a Medical Doctor (MD) or *any* type of Medical Professional. PLEASE : consult your own Dr. for medical advice.  The information posted is what I have : learned from researching or personal experiences. : Remove "NOSPAM" from addy to email me.

Response:

Thanks so much, Dave!  I really do appreciate your help.  You are a Godsend to all of us. Robin Path: lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cpk

-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone .tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!twister.southeast.rr.com.POSTED !53ab2750!not-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.chronic-pain Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.28.247.150 X-Trace: twister.southeast.rr.com 1028515657 24.28.247.150 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:47:37 EDT) Organization: RoadRunner – Triad Robin, I’m afraid that is a question I have no answer for-but will watch the literature for you. I do know that some proton-pump inhibitors (such as Prilosec, Prevacid) can alter gastric acid production enough to prevent dissolution of some medications, sustained release or IR formulas, more so than zantac or pepcid. (BTW, stay away from OTC Tagamet-The drug-drug interactions and metabolism changes keep piling up, so this med. is one to avoid, unless it is the only one you are taking!.) I’ll try to find an answer for you- I agree, this is a puzzle…. Dave/ : Hey Dave, : : Since you are discussing the long acting meds, I have a question for you. : : I can’t take MSContin or OxyContin due to spasms of the sphincter of oddi, but : prior to that being a problem, I always had problems with long acting meds (not : just opiates…..long acting Ditropan, Macrobid, etc.).  Seems like when I : would take a long acting med, I would feel sick…not really sick, but just : would feel weird ( I know, that is so descriptive for you …).  It was as if : my body just didn’t like the formulation or something….any long acting med, I : don’t do well, but the short acting, I am okay. : : Why is there a difference to my body?  I know they release slowly…do I feel : the way I do because of the release mechanism? : : Robin : : I am *not* a Medical Doctor (MD) or *any* type of Medical Professional. PLEASE : consult your own Dr. for medical advice.  The information posted is what I have : learned from researching or personal experiences. : Remove "NOSPAM" from addy to email me.

I am *not* a Medical Doctor (MD) or *any* type of Medical Professional. PLEASE consult your own Dr. for medical advice.  The information posted is what I have learned from researching or personal experiences. Remove "NOSPAM" from addy to email me.

Response:

 Hello  Has anyone heard anything about FROVATRIPTAN SUCCINATE? It is for migraines. New Migraine Drug Approved by FDA. It is expected to be available in pharmacies by early, 2002.                                        Thanks Ron would love to hear anything that you all might have heard about it.

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I haven’t heard of it yet, but you might try sci.med.pharmacy.  They would probably know about it.   Jen

Response:

General Information The FDA has approved Frova (frovatriptan succinate) for the acute treatment of migraine attacks with or without aura in adults. Frovatriptan, the active ingredient in Frova, works by binding to and stimulating serotonin (5-HT) receptors. Some scientists believe that migraines are caused by a constriction and sudden dilation of the blood vessels in the head, neck or scalp. Frova is believed to inhibit excessive dilation of the arteries associated with migraine attacks. Frova offers a unique benefit in terms of its improved half-life. Migraine attacks generally last four to seventy-two hours. In contrast to currently marketed triptans, which have a half-life of six hours or less, Frova 2.5 mg tablets have a 26-hour half-life. Clinical Results Five randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, outpatient trials demonstrated the effectiveness of Frova in treating migraine headaches. Two of the trials were dose finding, in which subjects received doses of Frova from 0.5 to 40 mg, while the remaining three evaluated only one dose (2.5 mg). In these controlled short-term trials, subjects were instructed to treat a moderate to severe headache. Headache response, defined as a reduction in headache severity from moderate or severe pain to mild or no pain, was assessed for up to 24 hours after dosing. Associated symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, photophobia and phonophobia were also evaluated. In two of the trials, a second dose of Frova was provided after the initial treatment to counter a recurrence of the headache within 24 hours. In all five of the trials, the percentage of subjects achieving a headache response two hours after treatment was significantly greater for the Frova-treated group compared to placebo-treated subjects. The data showed that lower doses of Frova (1 mg or 0.5 mg) were not effective, and higher doses (5 mg to 40 mg) caused a greater incidence of adverse events without being more effective than a 2.5 mg dose. Additionally, in subjects with migraine-associated nausea, photophobia and phonophobia at baseline, those treated with Frova experienced a decreased incidence of these symptoms compared to subjects receiving placebo. Side Effects Side effects associated with Frova include the following: Dizziness Fatigue Tingling Dry mouth Hot flashes Feeling hot or cold Chest pain Indigestion Skeletal pain Patients with the following conditions should not use Frova: Uncontrolled high blood pressure Heart disease Hemiplegic or basilar migraine History of stroke Circulation problems Mechanism of Action Frovatriptan is a 5-HT receptor agonist that binds with high affinity to 5-HT1B and 5-HT1D receptors. Frovatriptan has no significant effects on GABA mediated channel activity and has no significant affinity for benzodiazepine binding sites. Frovatriptan is believed to inhibit excessive dilation of extracerebral intracranial arteries in migraine. In anesthetized dogs and cats, intravenous administration of frovatriptan produced selective constriction of the carotid vascular bed and had no effect on blood pressure or coronary resistance. (from Frova Prescribing Information) http://www.centerwatch.com/patient/drugs/dru731.html "

Response:

Hello All,         My doc just put me on some new meds and I was hoping some one could tell me if they have had any experiences good or bad with them  The first is Vanceril double strength-2 puffs 2 times a day.  The other: proventil tablets to be taken 2 times a day starting 7 – 10 days before me period.  I have a horrible time during those days. Any response would be great. Thanks, Ann

I take Vanceril DS, 2 pf x2; and more if needed for symptoms or low peak flows (have Peak Flow meter at home). This is beclomethasone, the original steroid inhaler; has been in use since late 70’s. Proventil tabs–I have never taken these (and don’t intend to) Proventil is a long-acting bronchodilator which can help minimize use of the steroid inhaler (Vanceril DS) However the more common and easily tolerated drug of this type is the Serevent inhaler, 2 pf x2. The second most common one is TheoDur; it has the advantage of being both a long-acting bronchodilator and having mild anti-inflammatory properties. So tell your doctor of the side effects with the Proventil tabs. (This gives you high dose albuterol with side effects of nervousness for many people.) Note–you should have a Proventil or Ventolin inhaler on hand for quick relief or ‘rescue’. (This gives a much lower dose of albuterol than the oral version, since it goes directly to the lungs) The substitute for the Proventil tabs is either Serevent, increased Vanceril DS, or TheoDur. Current asthma guidelines are to use a Peak Flow Meter at home to monitor lung function and stay in green zone (80% personal best) An Action Plan is used to increase meds when peak flow goes into yellow zone (50-80% PB), usually steroid dose is doubled and Ventolin/Proventil inhaler used as needed. Ellis

Response:

Hello All,         My doc just put me on some new meds and I was hoping some one could tell me if they have had any experiences good or bad with them  The first is Vanceril double strength-2 puffs 2 times a day.  The other: proventil tablets to be taken 2 times a day starting 7 – 10 days before me period.  I have a horrible time during those days. Any response would be great.

The Vanceril is an inhaled steroid.  The purpose is to reduce the airways inflamation that is the root cause of asthma attacks.  By inhaling the medication rather than taking it in pill form, you get the same effectivness with approx. 1/10th the medication.  Also, this puts the medication directly where it is needed, rather than all through your body (allthough a small amount is still absorbed). The albuterol pills have me somewhat confused.  Have you discussed using a long acting bronchodilator such as Serevent with your doctor?  He may have good reasons for the oral albuterol, but an inhaled medication is less likely to produce side effects.

Response:

Hello All,         My doc just put me on some new meds and I was hoping some one could tell me if they have had any experiences good or bad with them  The first is Vanceril double strength-2 puffs 2 times a day.  The other: proventil tablets to be taken 2 times a day starting 7 – 10 days before me period.  I have a horrible time during those days. Any response would be great. Thanks, Ann

Response:

well i just got the glucophage that my mom got for me in Bancok 7 months worth for only 30.00 they look different but i can live with that….:) — Ken T-2 9/27/99 Glucophage 500mg X2 Last A1c=4.9

Response:

Hi Ken, I’d like to know more about where your mother got your glucophauge. Barbara

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – well i just got the glucophage that my mom got for me in Bancok 7 months worth for only 30.00 they look different but i can live with that….:) — Ken T-2 9/27/99 Glucophage 500mg X2 Last A1c=4.9

Response:

Question:

In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out.

Sofia, not everyone here is anti-breeder. IMO there’s nothing wrong with the choices you made. Congrats on your new kitty.

Response:

|Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes |to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg |to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. | |But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says |two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, |you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because |legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were |allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. In the apt I live in previously, they had allowed pets with a pet deposit.   On the pet deposit, and the lease there were no limits on the # of pets providing you paid the deposit.  The majority of people in the complex had pets and usually that meant multiple.  This did end up becoming a problem when the owner sold the building(meaning every apt needed to be inspected) and the new owner sent out and required a new lease(that specifically limited the # of pets to 1.) be signed.  The funny part of it was, the apt manager came around to everyone with pets and said that if she was the one being inspected that the pets would be under the requirement.  So what ended up happening is my furballs spent a day or two with friends while that went on.  

Response:

Well the shelters in my area (within 2 hours driving distance) need all the family members in your house hold to be there and fill out paper work, and also do a background check.  I went to the websites and look at their adoption policies.  Background check would be them calling the mgmt. office again and then me being rejected again. The cats that I mentioned that didn’t get along with other cats or dogs were from specific breed Rescues in my area.  There are listings with each animal and their personality/preferences. I.e. "No Dogs"  "Does not get along with other cats" were most of the ones listed. Like I said in my first post too, I would rather have a full grown cat than a kitten.  I’m not the type of person that will only get a kitten or a puppy, just the opposite infact. I have never in my life had a dog from a breeder, all shelter dogs, and in one case a dog a friend of mine was going to put down cause he didn’t feel like taking care of anymore (f*cking a**hole), and I am now on my 7th dog. Although I have been around cats for long periods of time in my life, I have never personally owned one myself until a year ago, so I haven’t had much of an opportunity, minus this past year, to adopt a cat.  I’m only 22 I’m sure I will adopt many in my lifetime. In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

Don’t worry – this poster (CP) can get stuck in a groove & doesn’t budge out of it, once entrenched; happens a lot. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

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: The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex : that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management : is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my : friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost Did their previous contract say they could have those dogs? If so the new management is either going to have to let them live there as long as their contract states or let them move out with no breaking of contract fees (as the new management broke teh contract, not them). If this is the case (which I don’t know if it is), I’d suggest your friend get a lawyer or at least fight it and tell the management that legally tehy don’t have a leg to stand on. : to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed : their lease renewal letters. Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

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Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home.

But in this case, it seems it was more a case of adopting a cat from a breeder or not adopting a cat at all. Apparently this is not really a case of one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Look, I’ve known other people who tried to adopt at shelters, couldn’t, and then went to breeders. It’s not always so black and white. For example, I have a friend who wanted to adopt a kitten about six months after her cat died. The shelters she went to wouldn’t let her have a kitten because she works during the day. So she bought a kitten from a breeder. Maybe you think she should have agreed with the shelters’ policy and adopted an adult cat, but she didn’t want to. You can’t force people to adopt cats they don’t want. IMO, if in this case another shelter kitten didn’t get a home, it was not my friend’s fault–she tried. And I don’t really fault the shelters either–overall that rule is in the best interest of the kittens, but you can’t expect people who disagree not to go elsewhere.

Response:

Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

Well if that happened I would move… simple as that.  I’m not hard up for cash (other than saving to own again).  If they asked me to get rid of one of my animals I would ask them to find a new tenant… I cant deal with these bugs invading my home anyhow. I broke the lease on my last apartment cause my landlord was stealing our mail, and coming into our apartment whenever he wanted to (then writing notes for us about the garbage being too full, or the ash tray having too many butt’s in it).  For 2K a month I didn’t think I deserved that.  With this place if I felt I was being treated unfairly I would leave. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Yeah but here is the kicker here. This person said they only went to one shelter and then went to a breeder when their plan failed. I would have checked with other shelters and even the no-kill ones. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost impossible with a dog (or cat for that matter) or starve their dogs to hit the limit of 40 lbs.  We all find this ridiculous as what the heck does 40 lbs. have to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed their lease renewal letters. I know a few years ago my apartment complex tried to ban cats in the building and found that if they did that, they would have a very empty apartment building as we all have cats.  It’s so fun to walk outside to my car and have all these kitties to say hi to. take care – jackie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually.

Response:

To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Yeah but what if the deception behind getting the cat that caused the mess? — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Yep, that pretty much covers it Brad

Response:

Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones).

Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Sethran

Response:

: Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not : affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short : order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Heh, the one shelter I went to didn’t turn me down cause of asthma, but I’m not sure they asked though. Then again they let me take the cat home the same day (pretty much because he was already spayed, but filled out a questionnaire, they called my apt, things looked good, I got the cat.. I don’t even think I got interviewed or anything. Questionnaires are easy to lie on. Though I will say I think it was pretty good they insist on spaying and neutering the cat before it goes home. Personally I think it’s more convenient cause then it’s just part of the adoption fee and I don’t have to worry about getting them fixed). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

: I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats).  Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma.   We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad

I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

Response:

For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

: For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption?   Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

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In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out.

Sofia, not everyone here is anti-breeder. IMO there’s nothing wrong with the choices you made. Congrats on your new kitty.

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|Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes |to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg |to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. | |But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says |two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, |you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because |legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were |allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. In the apt I live in previously, they had allowed pets with a pet deposit.   On the pet deposit, and the lease there were no limits on the # of pets providing you paid the deposit.  The majority of people in the complex had pets and usually that meant multiple.  This did end up becoming a problem when the owner sold the building(meaning every apt needed to be inspected) and the new owner sent out and required a new lease(that specifically limited the # of pets to 1.) be signed.  The funny part of it was, the apt manager came around to everyone with pets and said that if she was the one being inspected that the pets would be under the requirement.  So what ended up happening is my furballs spent a day or two with friends while that went on.  

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Well the shelters in my area (within 2 hours driving distance) need all the family members in your house hold to be there and fill out paper work, and also do a background check.  I went to the websites and look at their adoption policies.  Background check would be them calling the mgmt. office again and then me being rejected again. The cats that I mentioned that didn’t get along with other cats or dogs were from specific breed Rescues in my area.  There are listings with each animal and their personality/preferences. I.e. "No Dogs"  "Does not get along with other cats" were most of the ones listed. Like I said in my first post too, I would rather have a full grown cat than a kitten.  I’m not the type of person that will only get a kitten or a puppy, just the opposite infact. I have never in my life had a dog from a breeder, all shelter dogs, and in one case a dog a friend of mine was going to put down cause he didn’t feel like taking care of anymore (f*cking a**hole), and I am now on my 7th dog. Although I have been around cats for long periods of time in my life, I have never personally owned one myself until a year ago, so I haven’t had much of an opportunity, minus this past year, to adopt a cat.  I’m only 22 I’m sure I will adopt many in my lifetime. In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

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Don’t worry – this poster (CP) can get stuck in a groove & doesn’t budge out of it, once entrenched; happens a lot. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

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: The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex : that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management : is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my : friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost Did their previous contract say they could have those dogs? If so the new management is either going to have to let them live there as long as their contract states or let them move out with no breaking of contract fees (as the new management broke teh contract, not them). If this is the case (which I don’t know if it is), I’d suggest your friend get a lawyer or at least fight it and tell the management that legally tehy don’t have a leg to stand on. : to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed : their lease renewal letters. Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

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Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home.

But in this case, it seems it was more a case of adopting a cat from a breeder or not adopting a cat at all. Apparently this is not really a case of one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Look, I’ve known other people who tried to adopt at shelters, couldn’t, and then went to breeders. It’s not always so black and white. For example, I have a friend who wanted to adopt a kitten about six months after her cat died. The shelters she went to wouldn’t let her have a kitten because she works during the day. So she bought a kitten from a breeder. Maybe you think she should have agreed with the shelters’ policy and adopted an adult cat, but she didn’t want to. You can’t force people to adopt cats they don’t want. IMO, if in this case another shelter kitten didn’t get a home, it was not my friend’s fault–she tried. And I don’t really fault the shelters either–overall that rule is in the best interest of the kittens, but you can’t expect people who disagree not to go elsewhere.

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Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

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Well if that happened I would move… simple as that.  I’m not hard up for cash (other than saving to own again).  If they asked me to get rid of one of my animals I would ask them to find a new tenant… I cant deal with these bugs invading my home anyhow. I broke the lease on my last apartment cause my landlord was stealing our mail, and coming into our apartment whenever he wanted to (then writing notes for us about the garbage being too full, or the ash tray having too many butt’s in it).  For 2K a month I didn’t think I deserved that.  With this place if I felt I was being treated unfairly I would leave. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

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Yeah but here is the kicker here. This person said they only went to one shelter and then went to a breeder when their plan failed. I would have checked with other shelters and even the no-kill ones. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

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The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost impossible with a dog (or cat for that matter) or starve their dogs to hit the limit of 40 lbs.  We all find this ridiculous as what the heck does 40 lbs. have to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed their lease renewal letters. I know a few years ago my apartment complex tried to ban cats in the building and found that if they did that, they would have a very empty apartment building as we all have cats.  It’s so fun to walk outside to my car and have all these kitties to say hi to. take care – jackie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually.

Response:

To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Yeah but what if the deception behind getting the cat that caused the mess? — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Yep, that pretty much covers it Brad

Response:

Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones).

Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Sethran

Response:

: Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not : affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short : order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Heh, the one shelter I went to didn’t turn me down cause of asthma, but I’m not sure they asked though. Then again they let me take the cat home the same day (pretty much because he was already spayed, but filled out a questionnaire, they called my apt, things looked good, I got the cat.. I don’t even think I got interviewed or anything. Questionnaires are easy to lie on. Though I will say I think it was pretty good they insist on spaying and neutering the cat before it goes home. Personally I think it’s more convenient cause then it’s just part of the adoption fee and I don’t have to worry about getting them fixed). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

: I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats).  Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma.   We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad

I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

Response:

For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

: For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption?   Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out.

Sofia, not everyone here is anti-breeder. IMO there’s nothing wrong with the choices you made. Congrats on your new kitty.

Response:

|Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes |to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg |to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. | |But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says |two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, |you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because |legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were |allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. In the apt I live in previously, they had allowed pets with a pet deposit.   On the pet deposit, and the lease there were no limits on the # of pets providing you paid the deposit.  The majority of people in the complex had pets and usually that meant multiple.  This did end up becoming a problem when the owner sold the building(meaning every apt needed to be inspected) and the new owner sent out and required a new lease(that specifically limited the # of pets to 1.) be signed.  The funny part of it was, the apt manager came around to everyone with pets and said that if she was the one being inspected that the pets would be under the requirement.  So what ended up happening is my furballs spent a day or two with friends while that went on.  

Response:

Well the shelters in my area (within 2 hours driving distance) need all the family members in your house hold to be there and fill out paper work, and also do a background check.  I went to the websites and look at their adoption policies.  Background check would be them calling the mgmt. office again and then me being rejected again. The cats that I mentioned that didn’t get along with other cats or dogs were from specific breed Rescues in my area.  There are listings with each animal and their personality/preferences. I.e. "No Dogs"  "Does not get along with other cats" were most of the ones listed. Like I said in my first post too, I would rather have a full grown cat than a kitten.  I’m not the type of person that will only get a kitten or a puppy, just the opposite infact. I have never in my life had a dog from a breeder, all shelter dogs, and in one case a dog a friend of mine was going to put down cause he didn’t feel like taking care of anymore (f*cking a**hole), and I am now on my 7th dog. Although I have been around cats for long periods of time in my life, I have never personally owned one myself until a year ago, so I haven’t had much of an opportunity, minus this past year, to adopt a cat.  I’m only 22 I’m sure I will adopt many in my lifetime. In the mean time I regret trying to share my joy with anyone, as it has been badly received. This probably means that no one here has ever gotten a cat from a breeder, and if I want to talk about cats that I didn’t adopt I should go to another news group because my questions and comments are not welcome here… this seems a lot more like alt.cats now. Thanks to all those who have been polite, and helped me out. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

Don’t worry – this poster (CP) can get stuck in a groove & doesn’t budge out of it, once entrenched; happens a lot. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

: The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex : that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management : is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my : friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost Did their previous contract say they could have those dogs? If so the new management is either going to have to let them live there as long as their contract states or let them move out with no breaking of contract fees (as the new management broke teh contract, not them). If this is the case (which I don’t know if it is), I’d suggest your friend get a lawyer or at least fight it and tell the management that legally tehy don’t have a leg to stand on. : to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed : their lease renewal letters. Ouch… Did they read the lease reneal letters? did it mention any chagnes to the previous lease? If not, I’d think the management still had no leg to stand on cause tehy renewed the lease that they had aggred on before. But, the person’s original point still stands. When the contract only says two cats and you have three and management decides to change their mind, you are the one that is going to have the problem, not them because legally you signed a contract saying that you knew only two animals were allowed, and they are under no obligation to allow you three. Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home.

But in this case, it seems it was more a case of adopting a cat from a breeder or not adopting a cat at all. Apparently this is not really a case of one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Look, I’ve known other people who tried to adopt at shelters, couldn’t, and then went to breeders. It’s not always so black and white. For example, I have a friend who wanted to adopt a kitten about six months after her cat died. The shelters she went to wouldn’t let her have a kitten because she works during the day. So she bought a kitten from a breeder. Maybe you think she should have agreed with the shelters’ policy and adopted an adult cat, but she didn’t want to. You can’t force people to adopt cats they don’t want. IMO, if in this case another shelter kitten didn’t get a home, it was not my friend’s fault–she tried. And I don’t really fault the shelters either–overall that rule is in the best interest of the kittens, but you can’t expect people who disagree not to go elsewhere.

Response:

Actually the way you worded seemed like you only went to one and then from that experience drew conclusions that the rest of the shelters or local groups did not have compatable cats. I think you could have waited instead of going to a breeder. I never agree with Dom much but I can say he is correct in stating that no matter how responsible a breeder might be, that by supporting one that is one less cat or kitten in the shelter that loses a home. You say you work at shelters which is commendable but I have a hard time believing you had such a difficult time finding a cat.  Remember cats are not like picking up a six pack at the store. It seems that you wanted the cat that ended up adopted and no other cat. Be glad that cat got adopted and hope that the feline went to a good home. If you really wanted to adopt a shelter cat you really should have waited as many cats are brought into shelters each day in this country (I am guessing you are in the U.S.) and I am sure that there was probably at least one cat that was brought in that gets along with other cats. I may not work at a shelter but I also know from reading and watching that I see plenty of cats that are turned in by humans to the shelters and that they always have a handfull of felines that get along with other cats. You also have to remember that cats also need to be introduced slowly into new households that already have cats so to find one that you feel is just perfect and will be instantly ok with other cats would be nice. However, cats are like people and I am sure that no matter how instant you think a new cat will take to your cats there is always one feline that will not like the newcomer or at least tolerates it. Cats are cats and going to a breeder for one is simply not the answer. Supporting breeders only adds to the problem of overpopulation and if you look at it this way, by going to a shelter you are already getting a cat or kitten from a breeder in a way as many of the felines who end up there are the result of someone who failed to be responsbile by spaying or neutering their cat. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

Well if that happened I would move… simple as that.  I’m not hard up for cash (other than saving to own again).  If they asked me to get rid of one of my animals I would ask them to find a new tenant… I cant deal with these bugs invading my home anyhow. I broke the lease on my last apartment cause my landlord was stealing our mail, and coming into our apartment whenever he wanted to (then writing notes for us about the garbage being too full, or the ash tray having too many butt’s in it).  For 2K a month I didn’t think I deserved that.  With this place if I felt I was being treated unfairly I would leave. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Yeah but here is the kicker here. This person said they only went to one shelter and then went to a breeder when their plan failed. I would have checked with other shelters and even the no-kill ones. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

The scary thing about this is that it just happened at a local apartment complex that two of my friends live in…they have big big dogs and now the management is saying that no dogs over 40 lbs. can live there after July 30….so either my friends have to find a new place now, not easy in a college town, almost impossible with a dog (or cat for that matter) or starve their dogs to hit the limit of 40 lbs.  We all find this ridiculous as what the heck does 40 lbs. have to do with anything.  BTW, this notice to tenants came AFTER everyone signed their lease renewal letters. I know a few years ago my apartment complex tried to ban cats in the building and found that if they did that, they would have a very empty apartment building as we all have cats.  It’s so fun to walk outside to my car and have all these kitties to say hi to. take care – jackie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually.

Response:

To play devil’s advocate if the management company changes hands the new management can enforce new rules if they wish. I’d read your lease closely and look for that clause that basically says that the management can change or enforce rules at their discretion. You may not think its fair but that is the way it goes if you are renting. Management does have the final say usually. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Yeah but what if the deception behind getting the cat that caused the mess? — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Yep, that pretty much covers it Brad

Response:

Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Ugh if you read my first post you would know, I did visit other shelters, I tried rescues, retired breeders, and then as a very last resort I went to a breeder.  I work in a shelter, I would have loved to take any of those cats home… all I wanted to do was post some pictures not get grilled.  If you really want to hear the full story and all the avenues I exhausted before coming to the decision to go to a breeder (after researching many) I will be happy to go over that with you… I didn’t do that in the original post because I didn’t realize it would be necessary, and it would have made for a very long post. I want to apologize to anyone that my post has offended.  I wasn’t aware that it was going to go in this direction, or that I would be put in a position where I would have to explain the entire history of my search for another cat. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

I didn’t know the pet policy before I tried to adopt him, I looked over my lease and it didn’t say anything about a limit of pets, but when the shelter worked called (on me SECOND VISIT to this shelter) the management office and asked what their policy was someone told them limit 2 cats. When I got my apartment they knew how many pets I had, they never said it was too many.  So the thought didn’t even cross my mind.  I asked one of the girls about it and she said she didn’t have any problem with it. So if the building manager doesn’t care how many pets I have, and the people who work in the management office don’t care how many pets I have, but their stupid friggin policy says 2 cats is it really that wrong? The shelter I volunteer at has let other volunteers with the same restrictions I supposedly have adopt more animals out of favoritism for those people… which I can understand because they really haven’t known me long enough to make that kind of judgment. With the particular cat I was trying to adopt from the first shelter mentioned it was one that had a problem with spraying, I was willing to deal with it as he was so friendly, and I didn’t ever think he would get adopted because of that, so I sent my husband back… when he told me that cat was no longer there he also asked if I would like him to pick out another one… I said no. I’m not some kind of psycho cat hoarder or anything so I don’t get the whole red flag thing.  I’m a perfectly normal person with a love for animals, I even moved into a larger apartment in my complex to accommodate the new addition. http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy I’m normal, my home is clean, my animals are happy and well taken care of. These again are pictures of them, my home, my family. -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then why were you surprised that they turned you down? You knew the pet policy and then try to lie in order to adopt. No wonder the shelter turned you down. I mean if they see deception then why would they adopt out to you? I can see they are doing what is in the best interest for the animal and if someone uses the tactics you used to adopt then it raises a lot of red flags. What is worse getting others to cover you in the lie. I hate to say this (which may sound harsh) but you were responsible for the problem that you created. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats). Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones).

Depends on who you ask.  I see no reason to support a breeder.  Responsible as he or she may be, that’s still one more shelter kitten that won’t be going home. Sethran

Response:

: Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not : affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short : order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Heh, the one shelter I went to didn’t turn me down cause of asthma, but I’m not sure they asked though. Then again they let me take the cat home the same day (pretty much because he was already spayed, but filled out a questionnaire, they called my apt, things looked good, I got the cat.. I don’t even think I got interviewed or anything. Questionnaires are easy to lie on. Though I will say I think it was pretty good they insist on spaying and neutering the cat before it goes home. Personally I think it’s more convenient cause then it’s just part of the adoption fee and I don’t have to worry about getting them fixed). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

: I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a : cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for : declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and : then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting : good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a : breeder in the first place. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a breeder. There’s something wrong with supporting a irresponsible breeder (unfortunately the irresponsible ones outnumber the responsible ones). Alice — The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation.  People just aren’t worth very much any more, and they know it.  Makes ‘em testy. …Bev     |    _,,,—,,_          Tigress    /,`.-’`’    -.  ;-;;,_     http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress  ’—”(_/–’  `-’_)         Cat by Felix Lee.

Response:

Here’s my guess: that she was truthful about her asthma (even if it’s not affected by cats), & the shelter was afraid she’d return the cat in short order, due to "allergies" – one of the big reasons cats are turned in. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

Because although the management office knows how many pets I have, and don’t care, when a shelter calls and ask’s what their pet policy is they have to tell them limit 3 pets (for some reason only 2 of those can be cats).  Since the shelter workers had already seen me there, and my mom wouldn’t cover for me if I used her address I sent my husband. The shelter I volunteer at wont let me adopt for the same reason, although they have made acceptations to this rule with some long term volunteers I’m not much of a kitten person because you don’t know what their personality will be like when they are older.  With adult cats their personality is pretty much established, same with dogs.. I’ll only adopt adults.  So I’m nervous and excited at the same time!! -Sofia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption? Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

I am sorry to hear about your cat but it seems very strange to me. First you got turned down for adoption for reasons of asthma and then lied about it and now say that your wife’s asthma was not affected by the cats as far as you know. I am curious as to what the shelter’s reasons were for turning you down for adoption? You didn’t seem to state what they said. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma. We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? We are not cat-free…we still have our other little bundle of joy; Cappuccino, a goofy little 5 year old tortoiseshell that keeps us content.  She is lonely, but we do the best we can to help her along too.  We have another month to go before we can get another cat. My wifes astham is not affected by the cats as far as we can tell.  She is more affected by pollen and the heat.  She is on Advair to deal with her asthma. Brad

Response:

I have to wonder why you got turned down? Was your home unsuitable for a cat? Did you have problems because you are against spaying or are all for declawing. I also have to wonder why you didn’t visit another shelter and then went to a breeder? There are so many cats in shelters that are awaiting good homes so I am wondering if you fully had intended on supporting a breeder in the first place. — Cat Galaxy- The Internet radio station for cats. Meow meow meow!! http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station Real Player and Winamp: 66.28.48.193:10518 Windows Media Player http://www.live365.com/play/231353 The forum for felines everywhere. Join the Cat Galaxy Forum today! Meow! http://communities.msn.com/CatGalaxy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

My wife was turned down when we tried to adopt our first cat, Jessie, because she had asthma.   We lied, and told them that Jessie would live with me, and that my then fiance was living with her mother.  Got the cat no problem. Now we ahve to do it all over again, as Jessie passed away two months ago from FIP. Brad

I’m sorry to hear about Jessie.  Can I ask, how will your wife deal with the new cat and her asthma? Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043

Response:

For those who remember… I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here tomorrow!!!!! If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. -Sofia

Response:

: For those who remember… : I tried to adopt a few times and got turned down, so sent my hubby to adopt : a cat I had totally fallen in love with (the cat that sprayed) from a : shelter that was over an hour away, the cat was already adopted. : Local rescue groups didn’t have any cats that got along with both other : cats, and dogs.  So as a last resort I opted to get a kitten from a breeder, : heh after not being able to find a suitable adult cat.  Well he’ll be here : tomorrow!!!!! : If anyone would like to see pictures of him (Ajax) they are at : http://photos.yahoo.com/flesh58chevy on the last page of the "Pets" folder. : Once he arrives I will take more pictures of him and post them there. He’s a sweetheart!  I’m curious, though.  Why were you repeatedly turned down for adoption?   Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

Mrs. M replied… I am NOT the "Mrs. M" that "Dan L. Merkel"  wrote about. This post gave me a bit of a start! BTW, I don’t know anything about that company. Sorry! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -First, I realize that this is OT, but it isn’t that far off… Mrs. M. and I are about three months away from celebrating our 25th. anniversary.  I’m already making some plans for the special occasion, and I want to include something especially romantic for her to wear… Anyone had any experience with "Intimate Attitudes"?  They are a part of Shirley of Hollywood that specializes in fuller-figure lingerie.  I know there’s been some discussion of this topic here earlier.  I’ve seen a few different comapnies mentioned, both favorably and unfavorably, but not IA.  Anyone have any experiece with their merchandise; quality, price, etc? Anyone have another suggestion for a better option? Thanks, and may all of you be as happy as we have been over the last 25 years! dlm — Dan L. Merkel bright.net-BRT =====  Your Local Link to the                              Internet in Hancock County  < < =====

Mrs. M To reply via e-mail, remove "nospam" from the address.

Response:

First, I realize that this is OT, but it isn’t that far off… Mrs. M. and I are about three months away from celebrating our 25th. anniversary.  I’m already making some plans for the special occasion, and I want to include something especially romantic for her to wear… Anyone had any experience with "Intimate Attitudes"?  They are a part of Shirley of Hollywood that specializes in fuller-figure lingerie.  I know there’s been some discussion of this topic here earlier.  I’ve seen a few different comapnies mentioned, both favorably and unfavorably, but not IA.  Anyone have any experiece with their merchandise; quality, price, etc? Anyone have another suggestion for a better option? Thanks, and may all of you be as happy as we have been over the last 25 years! dlm — Dan L. Merkel bright.net-BRT =====  Your Local Link to the                               Internet in Hancock County  < < =====

Response:

Mrs. M replied… I am NOT the "Mrs. M" that "Dan L. Merkel"  wrote about. This post gave me a bit of a start! BTW, I don’t know anything about that company. Sorry! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -First, I realize that this is OT, but it isn’t that far off… Mrs. M. and I are about three months away from celebrating our 25th. anniversary.  I’m already making some plans for the special occasion, and I want to include something especially romantic for her to wear… Anyone had any experience with "Intimate Attitudes"?  They are a part of Shirley of Hollywood that specializes in fuller-figure lingerie.  I know there’s been some discussion of this topic here earlier.  I’ve seen a few different comapnies mentioned, both favorably and unfavorably, but not IA.  Anyone have any experiece with their merchandise; quality, price, etc? Anyone have another suggestion for a better option? Thanks, and may all of you be as happy as we have been over the last 25 years! dlm — Dan L. Merkel bright.net-BRT =====  Your Local Link to the                              Internet in Hancock County  < < =====

Mrs. M To reply via e-mail, remove "nospam" from the address.

Response:

First, I realize that this is OT, but it isn’t that far off… Mrs. M. and I are about three months away from celebrating our 25th. anniversary.  I’m already making some plans for the special occasion, and I want to include something especially romantic for her to wear… Anyone had any experience with "Intimate Attitudes"?  They are a part of Shirley of Hollywood that specializes in fuller-figure lingerie.  I know there’s been some discussion of this topic here earlier.  I’ve seen a few different comapnies mentioned, both favorably and unfavorably, but not IA.  Anyone have any experiece with their merchandise; quality, price, etc? Anyone have another suggestion for a better option? Thanks, and may all of you be as happy as we have been over the last 25 years! dlm — Dan L. Merkel bright.net-BRT =====  Your Local Link to the                               Internet in Hancock County  < < =====

Response:

Question:

Hi I found that I have had to give all my candles away and thank god my husband does the deep cleaning for me.  I can’t wear perfume either but I have one bottlle that is my favorite I will not give that one up!!!!   I have had to buy the non scented soaps and hairspray’s My only escape is my very hot bubble bath’s and it really helps me relax.

Response:

As a middle-aged female who has been diagnosed with asthma just within the past year, I am extremely interested in any sources of information on chemical triggers.

Chemicals that causes occupational asthma also act as chemical triggers for "conventional" asthmatics. Maybe this part of the FAQ for alt.support.asthma can be of some help: 1.4.3  What is Occupational Asthma?      Occupational Asthma is asthma that is caused by sensitization from      exposures in the workplace.  Asthmatics whose asthma is exacerbated by      exposures in the workplace would not be classified as having      occupational asthma.      There are over 200 substances that have been documented as causing      occupational asthma, but there are probably more that have not been      recognized. The substances that are known to cause occupational asthma      can be divided into two main categories.      High molecular weight proteins of animal or plant origins are common      causes.  Things like animal dander, flour proteins, and animal scales      are frequently causes of occupational asthma.  These same things are      also common causes of non-occupational asthma.  These are usually      IgE-mediated responses.      Low molecular weight chemicals that have the ability to bind with      proteins or act as haptans are causes of occupational asthma.  There      may be other mechanisms involved besides the classic IgE-mediated      responses as not all those that are sensitized have specific      antibody production.  Reactions may have reflex, inflammatory,      pharmacological, or immunologic pathways or a combination of several.      Often occupational asthma is difficult to diagnosis.  There are may be      immediate, late, or biphasic reactions.  In late reactions the      symptoms may not occur until away from the work place.  Frequently the      asthma worsens as the workweek progresses and improves over the      weekend.      Treatment for occupational asthma is basically the same as any other      asthma with a few very important exceptions.  For those that have      chemically induced asthma from sensitization to that chemical;      avoidance of the trigger is essential.      While steroids and other medications are helpful in treating the      symptoms, they do not prevent the underlying sensitivity from      increasing.      Once sensitized to a substance, some react to minute amounts.  Levels      below current TLV levels still trigger reactions. For a sensitized      individual any exposure can cause symptoms.      Continued exposure to the triggering chemical can cause permanent lung      damage, chronic asthmatic conditions, and even death.  Medication      should never be used to allow the worker to continue to work in an      environment where there is exposure to the triggering substance.      Early recognition and removal from exposure is essential in preventing      long term disability from asthma.      Chemically induced asthma can occur both in the workplace and outside      of the workplace.  There are many exposures outside of the workplace      that there are exposures to chemicals that can induce asthma.  Most      physicians are not familiar with this type of asthma. For anyone that      has chemically induced asthma, avoidance of the trigger is essential. 1.4.1  What is intrinsic/extrinsic asthma?      Intrinsic and extrinsic asthma are outdated terms which have now      been replaced by terms related to the asthma trigger, since the      inflammatory response of the airways is the same independent of      the cause of the asthma. What was known as extrinsic asthma is now called allergic asthma, while asthma triggered by non-allergic factors, formerly called intrinsic asthma, is separated into such categories as exercise-induced asthma and occupational (chemical-induced) asthma. —     _/_/_/    - jh –    www.taglinesgalore.com – The problem with political jokes is that they get elected …

Response:

18 February 2002 As a middle-aged female who has been diagnosed with asthma just within the past year, I am extremely interested in any sources of information on Any web sites or even reference books, texts from the library (please give ISBN # – makes it easier to find), would be really helpful. K Jackson

KJackson, http://users.lanminds.com/~wilworks/ehnindex.htm I have found the above website helpful. It has so many links it is difficult to get through, but take your time and you will find useful information. Good luck. Sally

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 18 February 2002 As a middle-aged female who has been diagnosed with asthma just within the past year, I am extremely interested in any sources of information on chemical triggers.  The chemical triggers which cause me the most difficulty are: 1) perfume and perfumed products (including hairspray, deodorants, aftershaves) 2) household and industrial cleaners (includes solid/spray air fresheners), and really aggravating are fabric softeners (both on clothing – it really does linger after it comes out of the dryer and as it is expelled from household clothes dryers) 3) gasoline fumes (especially public transit and those big wheelers) There are more such as paint, certain glues, etc. but the list is too big. Any web sites or even reference books, texts from the library (please give ISBN # – makes it easier to find), would be really helpful. As I live in Ontario, Canada, if anyone can give me contact names and/or telephone numbers of health authorities, asthma groups, support groups, etc., please do so it would definitely be appreciated. be nice to have it posted to this group. Thanks kindly to all who reply.      K Jackson

Check out: http://www.lung.ca/ Canadian Lung Assoc. http://www.on.lung.ca/ Ontario Lung Assoc. http://www.on.lung.ca/asthmaaction/asthmaaction.html Ontario – Asthma Action Call to order your Asthma Action program Order your free copy of our Asthma Action program, complete with a 36-page Asthma Action handbook, including an Asthma Action plan and diary card, along with ten Asthma Action fact sheets, call the Lung Association’s toll-free Asthma Action Helpline at 1-800-668-7682. Contact a Certified Asthma Educator        Help is online and on the phone Certified Asthma Educators can coach and advise you how to avoid asthma triggers, how to use your medications effectively, teach you  about proper environmental control and how to achieve good control  of your asthma. By e-mail If you have questions or concerns about asthma, contact our Certified Asthma Educator, Shelagh Finlayson, by e-mail at By phone Ontario residents can also reach our Certified Asthma Educators through our toll-free Asthma Action Helpline at 1-800-668-7682. They are available week days during business hours. Ellis

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18 February 2002 As a middle-aged female who has been diagnosed with asthma just within the past year, I am extremely interested in any sources of information on chemical triggers.  The chemical triggers which cause me the most difficulty are: 1) perfume and perfumed products (including hairspray, deodorants, aftershaves) 2) household and industrial cleaners (includes solid/spray air fresheners), and really aggravating are fabric softeners (both on clothing – it really does linger after it comes out of the dryer and as it is expelled from household clothes dryers) 3) gasoline fumes (especially public transit and those big wheelers) There are more such as paint, certain glues, etc. but the list is too big. Any web sites or even reference books, texts from the library (please give ISBN # – makes it easier to find), would be really helpful. As I live in Ontario, Canada, if anyone can give me contact names and/or telephone numbers of health authorities, asthma groups, support groups, etc., please do so it would definitely be appreciated. be nice to have it posted to this group. Thanks kindly to all who reply. K Jackson

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 18 February 2002 As a middle-aged female who has been diagnosed with asthma just within the past year, I am extremely interested in any sources of information on chemical triggers.  The chemical triggers which cause me the most difficulty are: 1) perfume and perfumed products (including hairspray, deodorants, aftershaves) 2) household and industrial cleaners (includes solid/spray air fresheners), and really aggravating are fabric softeners (both on clothing – it really does linger after it comes out of the dryer and as it is expelled from household clothes dryers) 3) gasoline fumes (especially public transit and those big wheelers) There are more such as paint, certain glues, etc. but the list is too big. Any web sites or even reference books, texts from the library (please give ISBN # – makes it easier to find), would be really helpful. As I live in Ontario, Canada, if anyone can give me contact names and/or telephone numbers of health authorities, asthma groups, support groups, etc., please do so it would definitely be appreciated. be nice to have it posted to this group. Thanks kindly to all who reply. K Jackson

Hi Karen, There’s probably books but some of these links will be helpful http://www.nih.gov/health/chip/nhlbi/asthma/ National Institute of Health http://books.nap.edu/books/0309064961/html/9.html Clearing the Air: Asthma and Indoor Air Exposures  Institute of Medicine (IOM) http://www.fpinva.org/ Betty Bridges (Fragrances Products) http://www.ourlittleplace.com/chemicals.html Our Little Place In addition, in recent years, the Ontario Medical Association, if I recall, has stated that our (Ontario) air quality is responsible for many respiratory deaths each year. The key is avoidance (of your triggers) and appropriate medications including rescue inhalers. You’ll find similar people on alt.support.mcs who aren’t afraid to talk about some of the triggers, as opposed to just talking about the various medications. http://groups.google.com/groups?as_ugroup=alt.support.mcs&as_scoring=… Hope this helps so you know that you are not alone with this problem. J

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Question:

It is perfectly clear to me that metals are toxic in high levels. What is not obvious is whether the levels are equally dangerous when they are too low, since the symptoms often resemble other types of malingering illness. I am aware of the problems associated with too high a level. Miro

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Zinc, and especially copper are also poisonous, in excess or if inhaled as with welding fumes. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author) Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels. And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it. The only time ‘hair analysis’ is useful is if the doctor suspects some sort of poisoning.  A competent doctor will be able to detect any dietary deficiency using real diagnostic procedures. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium. Muscle cramps can have many causes. For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake. Are you aware that selenium is poisonous? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

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Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels. And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it.

That is because hair analysis has been shown to be worthless and unreliable. The level in hair does not correlate to anything in reality and even if it did it would not matter because when identicle samples ares ent to different labs markedly different results are obtained. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium. For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake.

I don;t suppose you have any references to original clinical research to support any of this, do you? All such offerings should be associated with the general advice to consult a pharmacist or doctor prior to attempting to undertake such a course of action. If it is safe then it is harmless, is it not.

Why consult a doctor? If he isn’t a quack he will tell you not to waste your money. If he advises hair analysis to guide mineral supplementation he is. If it diverts money from resources that could have actually helped it is dangerous. — CBI, MD

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Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels. And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it.

The only time ‘hair analysis’ is useful is if the doctor suspects some sort of poisoning.  A competent doctor will be able to detect any dietary deficiency using real diagnostic procedures. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium.

Muscle cramps can have many causes.   For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake.

Are you aware that selenium is poisonous? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

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About a year or so ago my daughter had an allergic reaction and in the ER they gave her mag. IV…as well as the standard IV steroids, epi injection and braething treatments..etc.   She was having hives, swelling and difficulty breatning

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Zinc, and especially copper are also poisonous, in excess or if inhaled as with welding fumes. Boyd — "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." (Ellen Parr- author)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels. And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it. The only time ‘hair analysis’ is useful is if the doctor suspects some sort of poisoning.  A competent doctor will be able to detect any dietary deficiency using real diagnostic procedures. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium. Muscle cramps can have many causes. For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake. Are you aware that selenium is poisonous? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

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Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels.

The original poster stated that magnesium supplements were a treatment for asthma.  This is an asthma support group.  The advice of the original poster was not good advice.  Are you stating that low magnesium levels "cause" asthma or increase its frequency or severity? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium. For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake. All such offerings should be associated with the general advice to consult a pharmacist or doctor prior to attempting to undertake such a course of action. If it is safe then it is harmless, is it not.

What does any of this have to do with asthma?  It may be safe, but a waste of money, which could be harmful if the it took money that could be used to purchase effective medications.  It could lead to a false sense that the disease was being treated when in fact it wasn’t.  There are two harmful outcomes.

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Magnessium supplements are not a treatment for asthma, they are a treatment for low magnessium levels. And for the most part, 90% of doctors do not test these levels in patients. Most doctors fail to observe a simple hair analysis test for many asthmatics, which leads me to believe that you can only patch the problem if you dont treat it. A severe lack of this metal ion causes cramps in most people, and in many cases is compounded by medications which affect the biological activity of regulation requiring Magnessium. For other people it is zinc, copper or selenium, cromium that needs to be addressed, and in this way it is very individual and personal. To use a broad blanket to dismiss the suggestion, is blocking the opportunity to try an alternative pathway, which if done in moderation and over a small period of time is unlikely to lead to complications, if the medications in use by the person do not directly confilct with the metal ion intake. All such offerings should be associated with the general advice to consult a pharmacist or doctor prior to attempting to undertake such a course of action. If it is safe then it is harmless, is it not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oral magnesium supplements have been tested in clinical trials as a treatment for asthma and were found to be useless.  Of course the people selling the stuff hide this fact. If the stuff worked your doctor would be prescribing it.

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Mark, Your advice is valuable, just remember to have your Mg levels checked before they go too high. You may also want to try Zinc, before you go to bed. As Zinc causes nausea in most people.

Actually, the below advice is not valuable.  It is based on nothing more than advertising hype and misrepresented scientific research. Oral magnesium supplements have been tested in clinical trials as a treatment for asthma and were found to be useless.  Of course the people selling the stuff hide this fact. If the stuff worked your doctor would be prescribing it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Miro I am not selling tablets nor am I endorsing them.  I simply am passing on valueable information that I found to be helpful – that’s all.  If you don’t believe me, it’s too bad, because the fact is, it does work for me.  I am a high school teacher and am not trying to get anyone to buy something – they can be purchased over the counter at any drug store.  Do some research on the Internet and you’ll see for yourself – the information is out there. Just do a search on asthma & magnesium and see for yourself. Mark Strassburger I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

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This form of magnessium is a metal oxide, not the chelated metal ion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t forget if you try magnesium that it has laxative properties (e.g. "Milk of Magnesia)!  If you’re going to try taking some to help your asthma, as least try taking some calcium (hardener) along with it.

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Mark, Your advice is valuable, just remember to have your Mg levels checked before they go too high. You may also want to try Zinc, before you go to bed. As Zinc causes nausea in most people. Miro

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not selling tablets nor am I endorsing them.  I simply am passing on valueable information that I found to be helpful – that’s all.  If you don’t believe me, it’s too bad, because the fact is, it does work for me.  I am a high school teacher and am not trying to get anyone to buy something – they can be purchased over the counter at any drug store.  Do some research on the Internet and you’ll see for yourself – the information is out there. Just do a search on asthma & magnesium and see for yourself. Mark Strassburger I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

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Your altrustic post is lost on this crowd.  They’re closed-minded and seem to love their disease.

Just as you love to troll? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits." Einstein

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The best indicator of low Magnessium levels, is a strong chocolate craving and cramps in tired muscles. Often in the hands or legs. Caveat: Magnessium levels can not be corrected rapidly and long term usage of Mg pills should not replace vegetables, seafood and fruit as a source. Some Magnessium supplements can disrupt metabolic function in high levels. The best therapy is to consider moderate doses taken with dinner for a period of one month. If symptoms improve, then consider having hair analysis or a blood test to measure levels. Long term Magnessium consumption in high doses can be negative and outweigh the benefits. Miro

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

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Don’t forget if you try magnesium that it has laxative properties (e.g. "Milk of Magnesia)!  If you’re going to try taking some to help your asthma, as least try taking some calcium (hardener) along with it. — (650) 236-2231 [daytime]        http://www.wsrcc.com/alison/ The real puzzle of thermodynamics is not why entropy always increases with time, but why it was ever so low in the first place.  – H. Price

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Don’t forget if you try magnesium that it has laxative properties (e.g. "Milk of Magnesia)!  If you’re going to try taking some to help your asthma, as least try taking some calcium (hardener) along with it.

Are you sure about that? I have cramping problems from my inhalers (twitching problems too). I am also diabetic so I try to exercise a lot and cramping can be a problem – I am especially vulnerable to calf cramps when swimming, bicycling, running so I take magnesium in pill form to help and its sort of constipating but as they say YMMV Jerry Freedman,Jr

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Your altrustic post is lost on this crowd.  They’re closed-minded and seem to love their disease. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sorry to have bothered everyone in this group about this matter.  I didn’t know it was such a private group.  All I intended was to share something about asthma that a friend passed on to me as helpful advice.  All I’m getting from this group (except Joanne) is nothing but a lot of grief.  I’m sorry to have posted in this group – I never will again, especially since I have been treated so harshly as if I’m some kind of criminal. Mark

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Excuse me……I don’t think people are stupid. I don’t know how long you have been monitoring this group but there is some quick fix promoted here pretty regularly. Skeptical, look it up, it does not mean STUPID. Denise Indianapolis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with you.  I have heard the same thing and it is also good for the heart.  Thanks for the reminder.  Too bad some people are stupid.  I am a junior high teacher. Joanne

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Sorry to have bothered everyone in this group about this matter.  I didn’t know it was such a private group.  All I intended was to share something about asthma that a friend passed on to me as helpful advice.  All I’m getting from this group (except Joanne) is nothing but a lot of grief.  I’m sorry to have posted in this group – I never will again, especially since I have been treated so harshly as if I’m some kind of criminal. Mark

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Sorry to have bothered everyone in this group about this matter.  I didn’t know it was such a private group.  All I intended was to share something about asthma that a friend passed on to me as helpful advice.  All I’m getting from this group (except Joanne) is nothing but a lot of grief. I’m sorry to have posted in this group – I never will again, especially since I have been treated so harshly as if I’m some kind of criminal. Mark

Sorry your initial experience has been so unfriendly. It is just that this group gets so many snake oil salesmen that the people tend to be a bit hyperalert for it. The good news is that it would seem that you are not trying to sell anything. The bad news is that the particular topic you have introduced has been discussed many times. The fact is that magnesium and asthma have been well studied. There does not seem to be a link between asthma and magnesium deficiency and therapeutic trials have been disappointing. Most of the people claiming otherwise are selling it. I’m glad your asthma is doing better. I would suggest that the dose of magnesium you are taking is too small to be significant (assuming typical sized tablets), lending further support tot he supposition that the improvement is due to coincidence or placebo. The standard advice when joining a newsgroup is to either lurk for a while or at least search an archive on your topic prior to posting. The alternative is to risk an unwelcome response. — CBI, MD

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I agree with you.  I have heard the same thing and it is also good for the heart.  Thanks for the reminder.  Too bad some people are stupid.  I am a junior high teacher. Joanne

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am not selling tablets nor am I endorsing them.  I simply am passing on valueable information that I found to be helpful – that’s all.  If you don’t believe me, it’s too bad, because the fact is, it does work for me.  I am a high school teacher and am not trying to get anyone to buy something – they can be purchased over the counter at any drug store.  Do some research on the Internet and you’ll see for yourself – the information is out there. Just do a search on asthma & magnesium and see for yourself. Mark Strassburger I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.

Why did you say this was a secret?  Try an archive search of asa for magnesium, we’ve discussed it numerous times. I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html

This is a page from a site of a "Homecare and Wellness Center" apparently operated by a chiropracter.  Why should I believe what it says about asthma and magnesium?  If you want to search the net for info on asthma and magnesium why not start with PubMed?  I would hardly call that a "scientific article".  And why should I believe you when you say your not making money off of magnesium?  You have never posted here before, why did you search out this group? Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

If your interested in reading about the results of a double blind study that was published in a refereed journal here’s one link. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… _uids=11314826&dopt=Abstract       Eur J Emerg Med 2001 Mar;8(1):9-15  Intravenous magnesium is ineffective in adult asthma, a randomized trial. Porter RS, Nester, Braitman LE, Geary U, Dalsey WC. Department of Emergency Medicine, Albert Einstein Medical Center, Philadelphia, PA 19141, USA. Intravenous magnesium sulphate (MgSO4) has been tried in the emergency department treatment of asthma since the mid-1980s, but published reports vary as to its efficacy. The literature suggests that it may be effective in the more severely ill asthmatic. We evaluated i.v. MgSO4 in adult asthmatics having a moderate to severe exacerbation. The study was performed in a convenience sample of adult asthmatics between the ages of 18 and 55 presenting to the emergency department with a peak expiratory flow (PEF) of < 100 l/min or < 25% of predicted flow. Patients received either 2.0 grams of MgSO4 or placebo in a randomized, double-blind fashion. All patients received inhaled bronchodilators and i.v. steroids. Outcome variables were: improvement in PEF, subjective respiratory distress as measured by the Borg dyspnoea scale (BDS) and hospital admission. The first visits of 42 patients presenting with acute asthma exacerbations were evaluated, 18 receiving MgSO4 and 24 receiving placebo. The t = 60 peak flow in the MgSO4 group was 174 l/min versus 212 l/min in placebo, p = 0.04. Controlling for age, heart rate, initial PEF and initial BDS in ordinal logistic regression, the t = 60 Borg scale of subjective dyspnoea had an odds ratio of 1.54 in favour of more dyspnoea in MgSO4 (95% C.I., 0.36-6.67; p = 0.56). Five of 18 patients (28%) receiving MgSO4 were admitted compared with 5 of 24 (21%) receiving placebo (p = 0.72). In moderately severe adult asthmatics, 2.0 grams of MgSO4 i.v. resulted in less improvement in peak expiratory flow compared with placebo. MgSO4 did not appear to decrease subjective dyspnoea or the hospital admission rate. This evidence does not support the use of MgSO4 in the treatment of acute asthma.

Response:

I am not selling tablets nor am I endorsing them.  I simply am passing on valueable information that I found to be helpful – that’s all.  If you don’t believe me, it’s too bad, because the fact is, it does work for me.  I am a high school teacher and am not trying to get anyone to buy something – they can be purchased over the counter at any drug store.  Do some research on the Internet and you’ll see for yourself – the information is out there. Just do a search on asthma & magnesium and see for yourself. Mark Strassburger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

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I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking

Well, there hasn’t been all that much SPAM lately, maybe this is the beginning of a new round.

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Hmmm….and they would cost how much and we would be buying them to benefit you how??????? Denise Indianapolis

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

Response:

I don’t know if anyone on this list has ever mentioned this, but there is a very strong conection between asthma and magnesium defficiency.  By taking a magnesium supplement in a tablet form (available over the counter) one can possibly prevent asthma attacks from occuring.  Someone told me about this secret a few months ago and I decided to try it out.  I have NOT had a single attack this summer!  I swear by it.  There are articles on the Internet about it and here is a link to one of them: http://www.hom.net/smith/N1269.html Read it for yourself and try it out.  The dosage may vary depending on how severe your asthma is (1-3 pills, once or twice a day).  I have been taking only 1 tablet a day and it has worked for me.  Hopefully someone reading this post will try it and also find it helpful.  Good luck! Mark Strassburger

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Question:

I have some cedar that is NOT aromatic.  It has the same markings yet a bit lighter.  Going to make a chest out of it but want to know if 1. Works like Aromatic. 2. is bug resistant like Aromatic. — Young Carpenter "If you’re not confused, You’re not trying hard enough!" —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

If it is Inland Red Cedar the biggest drawback to using it for a chest is that it is extremely soft.  It is bug resistant, more so if it is old growth rather than 2nd or 3rd growth.  Good luck. Jeff Clausen — [:To reply, remove sliver from e-mail address.]

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The other thing I’ve noticed about it is that there is a significant difference in hardness between the dark streaks and the light wood.  So when you sand it the soft would gets worn away faster and the surface becomes uneven. Never worked with the aromatic cedar though so I don’t know if it has the same issues. Don’t know how you plan on finishing it, but I just tung oiled and waxed some tables for the wife’s greenhouse and they looked very nice afterward. (wife didn’t appreciate the natural grey look). If it is Inland Red Cedar the biggest drawback to using it for a chest is that it is extremely soft.  It is bug resistant, more so if it is old growth rather than 2nd or 3rd growth.  Good luck. Jeff Clausen — [:To reply, remove sliver from e-mail address.]

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I am building a gazebo. While in the process I had a small setback ( I broke my hand) SOOO I didn’t get to put a sealer on it quick enough and it is turning whitish in color . Is there any way I can get the "reddish/ purple" color back or at least close to it ???? ,, How bout you syl you seem to use the eastern cedar Thanx in advance

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try washing with Oxalic Acid (not sure that is the correct spelling)….It should return the wood to it’s near natural colors…. Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am building a gazebo. While in the process I had a small setback ( I broke my hand) SOOO I didn’t get to put a sealer on it quick enough and it is turning whitish in color . Is there any way I can get the "reddish/ purple" color back or at least close to it ???? ,, How bout you syl you seem to use the eastern cedar Thanx in advance

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There are products available for this, usually marketed as brighteners. I believe both Behr and Cabot make them, for example. After brightening, use Cabot 3000 for a final coat. I used this for our cedar gazebo and the results were very nice. Mike. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am building a gazebo. While in the process I had a small setback ( I broke my hand) SOOO I didn’t get to put a sealer on it quick enough and it is turning whitish in color . Is there any way I can get the "reddish/ purple" color back or at least close to it ???? ,, How bout you syl you seem to use the eastern cedar Thanx in advance

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The boys have got it right.  Use one of the commercial brighteners to restore the original color.  Then you can either stain and I suggest Cabot and/or top it with Cabot’s Harbor Master UV Formula Poly (comes Gloss, Semi and Satin).  should be fine. Hope the hand feels better. — — Sy Kaplan Proprietor Black Sheep Woodworks http://www.blacksheepwoodworks.com "If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his salary?"

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I am building a gazebo. While in the process I had a small setback ( I broke my hand) SOOO I didn’t get to put a sealer on it quick enough and it is turning whitish in color . Is there any way I can get the "reddish/ purple" color back or at least close to it ???? ,, How bout you syl you seem to use the eastern cedar Thanx in advance

Some prefer that barnwood look.  If it hasn’t gone on too long it won’t be too deep at all, so try sanding. Dan.

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Has anyone heard of any problems associated with exposure to cedar dust. Any information would be appreciated.  If possible I would like to have documentation as to the source of the information.  Thank you very much.

A couple of recent references: 1.  Red cedar dust has the lowest allowable air concentration (2.5 mg/m3) according to federal regulations — therefore it’s presumably thought to be the most hazardous — Wood and Wood Products, vol. 100, p. 125 (1995) 2.  Red cedar contains plicatic acid, a possible cause of asthma (Occup. Environ. Med., vol. 52, p. 54 (1995). — Rick Larson  1101 W Peabody Drive  UIUC Urbana IL 61801 Tel 217-333-7269 Fax 217-333-8046 WWW http://ux1.cso.uiuc.edu/~larson/home.html

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Has anyone heard of any problems associated with exposure to cedar dust. Any information would be appreciated.  If possible I would like to have documentation as to the source of the information.  Thank you very much.

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Just used Henry #107 Asphalt Emulsion on a redwood box.  Building Supply said it is used on concrete as moisture barrier below grade  Label says "Waterproof".   For long term durability, I’d suggest lining the box. Traditionally, this is done with a sheet metal box that’s soldered, with a few drain holes (over holes in the wooden box). I’ve seen variations using other materials.

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I came across some real nice Cedar. It looks red however I have idea if that is the criteria for being Red Cedar. I’m new to wood working. I want to make some flower boxes and will be left outside. The wood has been faced both sides.I figure the natural oil is throughout the wood. Not just on the  surface. I’d prefer not to put anything on them however I don’t want them to rot in 6 months. Thanks

If it’s really cedar, it is naturally preserved (ie won’t rot).  That’s why it used in fencing.  However, outside it will turn nice light gray with age.  If you don’t want it to do this (turn gray), I would advise coating it with a good quality clear UV resistant polyurethane or, better yet, a decking preservative.  Of course, you will have to recoat it every six to twelve months or so because the sun will "eat off" the coating.    —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

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There are plastic liners available which are very good.  Just dimension your window boxes according to their dimensions. I use Cabot’s Harbor Master UV Formula Satin Polyurethane on my window boxes.  It performs very well.  The cedar that was left out for the winter shows no signs of deterioration in finish, though the cedar did fade a bit. I may try some Spar Urethane on a few test pieces, but I haven’t found one with UV protection yet.  I spray the Poly thinned with Naphtha and some Japan Dryer to speed curing.  On a sunny day I’m usually dust free in under 30 minutes. — Sincerely, Sy Kaplan Proprietor Black Sheep Woodworks 14 Smith Farm Road N. Chittenden, VT  05763 (802) 483-2600 http://www.blacksheepwoodworks.com "We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know that it’s not true."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came across some real nice Cedar. It looks red however I have idea if that is the criteria for being Red Cedar. I’m new to wood working. I want to make some flower boxes and will be left outside. The wood has been faced both sides.I figure the natural oil is throughout the wood. Not just on the  surface. I’d prefer not to put anything on them however I don’t want them to rot in 6 months. Thanks

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I was going to line it with weed fabric and it already has 3  1" holes and stones for draining water. That has worked well on other boxes. They however were not faced. Just and rough so I’m not sure if the faacing will make them last a bit less.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For long term durability, I’d suggest lining the box. Traditionally, this is done with a sheet metal box that’s soldered, with a few drain holes (over holes in the wooden box). I’ve seen variations using other materials. If in constant contact with moist soil, any wood will fail in a shorter time than when kept dry and isolated from the dirt.

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For long term durability, I’d suggest lining the box. Traditionally, this is done with a sheet metal box that’s soldered, with a few drain holes (over holes in the wooden box). I’ve seen variations using other materials. If in constant contact with moist soil, any wood will fail in a shorter time than when kept dry and isolated from the dirt. — George Burdo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I came across some real nice Cedar. It looks red however I have idea if that is the criteria for being Red Cedar. I’m new to wood working. I want to make some flower boxes and will be left outside. The wood has been faced both sides.I figure the natural oil is throughout the wood. Not just on the  surface. I’d prefer not to put anything on them however I don’t want them to rot in 6 months. Thanks

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I came across some real nice Cedar. It looks red however I have idea if that is the criteria for being Red Cedar. I’m new to wood working. I want to make some flower boxes and will be left outside. The wood has been faced both sides.I figure the natural oil is throughout the wood. Not just on the  surface. I’d prefer not to put anything on them however I don’t want them to rot in 6 months. Thanks

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