Question:
Nasaboy, I read several of your posts one Google. You are NOT a rocket scientist.
Response:
Aaah, very witty, no, i’m no doctor (and no, I’m no barber) but do I need to be. I am human and I just get so frustrated when I hear all these stories.
You think _you’re_ frustrated? We have to hear these same fairy tales ("it’s nutrition." "It’s television." "It’s the school system") time and again, and usually from people who spell better than you do, too. Small wonder your nonsense got such short shrift here. I don’t see where this has come from.
There are none so blind as those who are not smart enough to see. Why is this suddenly an issue now or have we been secretly tolerating this mystery illness since the dawn of man.
Accidentally, you raise a valid question. First time for everything, I guess. You might like to check out some of the research and theories on that question before proceeding. You must see that it can only be in respose to a change in the environment with which we live in and therefor are in control of.
Like sunspot activity? Are ADD sufferers really so alienated from their own bodies that they can’t control there attention levels
Um, you have _read_ the diagnostic criteria for ADHD, right? No? Too many big words? Maybe someone could help you sound them out and look them up. and if the answer is yes how can we treat this as safe and how (in other posts by other authors in this ng) can some say that they deserve special treatment (and understanding) to get a place in University next to people without it.
Oh, your concern now becomes clear. You don’t want to sit next to one of "those" ADHD’ers in University. Given your evidenced level of education, I doubt that’s an issue. You’ll still have to suffer with sitting next to us on the bus, though…modern medicine and science means we don’t have to sit in the back anymore. Get used to it.
Response:
I mean the part where she says she was "aware and a little concerned". I’m sorry, but were I live parents talk to the teachers often and when "concerned" ASK.
Normally that happens…what happens when you come across a teacher who insists on doing things her own way, and refuses the types of communication essential to student success? I actually had that happen last year, even though "daily written communication" was written in my son (then 10, ADHD/gifted/aspergers-autistic)’s IEP….kind of hard to talk when the teacher refuses to do so…. Luckily for my son, it was only the teachers in his 5th grade…the teachers in his current school are definately communicative with parents… IMHO, you came across sounding a bit pretentious…perhaps you have never had to deal with the situations we are describing? Sound like every kid I went to school with. Let her fail and then make her feel like a failure. Stop making excuses for her. Now let’s see. On the one hand you whine "take a more active role". OTOH, now she _is_ taking a "more active role" and you’re saying "knock off and let the kid fail". The former would have been preventative. By taking a cooperative and active role encouragement (not doing it for her) may have prevented the latter, which was not intended as along term solution.
This only works if BOTH sides are cooperating…if the parent is the only one trying to do this, the child is doomed to fail–because the *school* is causing the failure…. No small mind yours. How mature.
I have not seen much maturity in your posts so far, either….again, perhaps you have not had to deal with these issues as a parent? So define "active role" then. Communicating in-depth with the child on a daily basis. As many
activities with the child as possible, where possible encorporating subjects being studied at school and regular communication with the teacher (2 to 3 times weekly). Before you say we don’t have the time, it may be reflective of a commitment to parenthood.
Communicating with the child is only *part* of the solution…one needs to have a school that also communicates with the parents…*especially* when dealing with children outside of the norm. ??? How is "hounding her to get these projects done" "making excuses for her"? "Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting." Show me a child that doesn’t. OK, I take that back, there are some, but they are very rare. I always struggled with long term projects as did most of my friends. The difference being we where told we where lazy, punished and worked harder
next time. Most of the students in my sons classes are able to do this without having the sensory distractions that they do….I understand this as well, for even when looking up a word in the disctionary, I have to literally force myself not to look at the other words, which often prove too interesting to ignore. Have you ever read _You Mean I’m Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy?!_ by Kelly/Ramundo? One other concept…imagine that you are being told that you are lazy, and should be working harder next time….and months (years) later you find out that the reason you had such a hard time was because you needed glasses. Would you still say, "No, don’t wear the glasses, because I did just fine compensating without them for so long….because I muddled through it, everyone else in this situation should have to as well…"? — Buny ——"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." ~ Albert Camus ——One size does NOT fit all, heck, one size don’t even fit MOST!
Response:
THIS IS ALL JUSTIFICATION FOR LAZINESS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO WEAK!!!
Very simply, we have a character flaw. You don’t want to call it "ADHD" and you don’t want us to deal with it using the methods that are proven to work, but you don’t have anything better to offer, so quit your whining, you worthless git. You are a member of the human race, stop making excuses and contribute! If your bloodline can’t handle the pace evolution will remove you.
And how will it do this? If you want your bloodline to stay here, you have to earn it!
Well, actually, all you have to do is open your legs or find someone who will open hers, then wait 9 months. You seem to have a rather quaint notion of how evolution works. If [we, the contributing community] give you a book advance, write the damn book!
"We"? You are not the publisher, you did not provide the advance, hell, you’ve probably never bought a book in your life, so don’t claim authority where you hold none. Now, do you have a methodology by which this person may coerce himself into writing (hint-look up "writer’s block") by all means share it. It’s easy to give orders when you aren’t responsible for ensuring that they are actually obeyed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Louise Brolic Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504. I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it? Never mind, it’s just a rhetorical question. Thanks for the reminder. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. This sounds so familiar. I can relate. I feel your pain and frustration, Kats. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Pretty typical ADHD behavior. BTDT and so have plenty of other parents and their ADHD kids. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning. And with both parents having ADD/ADHD, we’re not the best possible choices to help her learn these skills, try as we might. I flunked my senior history seminar in college precisely because I couldn’t do the 15-30 page paper using primary resources. Just couldn’t pull it all together. My husband got a book advance several years ago and has yet to write said book. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time. I made a lot of calls today trying to find a tutor here in Tucson who specializes in ADHD kids. No luck yet, but will follow up on it until I find one. I also called the 7th grade guidance counselor. Her first and primary suggestion was to go to www.loveandlogic.com. I’ve always tried to use natural and logical consequences, give choices, etc., for daily living kinds of things, although the last few months I’ve probably not been as good at it as I used to be, partly because I’ve felt I had to be so constantly on top of both kids with their school work, and partly because, well, I’ve been struggling with my own and marriage problems. I also remain unconvinced that the use of consequences for such things as school work is effective, unless letting a child do nothing and fail is truly an "option." Look at it this way, suppose the reason that your daughter couldn’t do her assignments was a purely physical one. Would you and the school continue to let her struggle and fail or would you and the school do something to help her do the work despite the physical problem (or exempt her from the work if accommodations weren’t possible)? And, if your daughter failed a class because of a physical problem, would she then be more willing or able to do the work? You and the school need to work together on this to try to develop your daughter’s executive management skills and provide accommodations for her lack of them until she is able to develop them. A friend of my daughter’s who has physical disabilities doesn’t take regular PE classes but adaptive PE. Her friend who is dyslexic gets study guides for tests a week in advance (then her mother drills her for hours over the next week). But the school staff is struggling (and at this point, so am I) with how to help my daughter, who tests gifted on nearly every test, comes across as highly verbal and bright, but whose performance rarely meets up with her potential. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project. She has a 504. It’s got a lot on it (I even posted the text of it here a few months ago), but functionally, I’m not sure it has mattered at all or made any difference. Four or 5 of her teachers would be working out well even without a 504, partly because of the way they run their classes, and partly because they "click" with DD. The others are mostly okay, except for these two long projects. One of these is the SFA teacher. SFA (Skills for Adolescents) is supposed to teacher these kids exactly what DD has trouble with: organization, goal-setting, time management, research, note-taking, and some personal growth and peer relationships type stuff. Unfortunately, what I see looks more like grading them on what they already know or can pick up quickly than on actually teaching them anything, at least where DD is concerned. I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? I wish I could say "no," but, my son is now a senior in high school, and to some extent, we still have to make sure he’s making progress on long term projects, although, we don’t actually have to supervise his doing the research and writing anymore. I really worry about what’s going to happen in college. <sigh I honestly don’t know how I managed to graduate. My transcript has everything from As to Fs. I had to stay an extra year to switch to a different major that wouldn’t require a paper to complete. Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504. Exempt her? How in the world do I get them to do that? Seriously. I can see major MAJOR resistance from teachers on this one and from the counselors who don’t want to present this idea to teachers. 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own. Not likely, given her genetic inheritance. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. Hmmm. Nah. I was only tempted for a second or two. <g My current plan: 1. Talk to the 2 teachers who assigned these two long-term research projects. See if they have any flexibility, and suggestions. Be willing to take whatever grade she gets, but reassure her that we have a plan to help her before the next time there’s a long-term project. 2. Find an ADD-knowledgable psychiatrist
… read more »
Response:
Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. A teacher is not a replacement parent, take an active role! You are illiterate. Read what was written. She said that these projects were supposed to be done _in_ _class_. What is she supposed to do, invade the classroom?
I mean the part where she says she was "aware and a little concerned". I’m sorry, but were I live parents talk to the teachers often and when "concerned" ASK. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. Sound like every kid I went to school with. Let her fail and then make her feel like a failure. Stop making excuses for her. Now let’s see. On the one hand you whine "take a more active role". OTOH, now she _is_ taking a "more active role" and you’re saying "knock off and let the kid fail".
The former would have been preventative. By taking a cooperative and active role encouragement (not doing it for her) may have prevented the latter, which was not intended as along term solution. No small mind yours.
How mature. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired Nice precedent you’ve set, well done. Why would she do it when she knows mum & dad will jump in in the end So define "active role" then.
Communicating in-depth with the child on a daily basis. As many activities with the child as possible, where possible encorporating subjects being studied at school and regular communication with the teacher (2 to 3 times weekly). Before you say we don’t have the time, it may be reflective of a commitment to parenthood. of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the Yes that’s your job as a parent, encouragement and to teach the way of the world. Which does not mean making excuses for her or doing it for her. ??? How is "hounding her to get these projects done" "making excuses for her"?
"Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting." Show me a child that doesn’t. OK, I take that back, there are some, but they are very rare. I always struggled with long term projects as did most of my friends. The difference being we where told we where lazy, punished and worked harder next time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? You signed up to be a parent, now take responsibility! You’re child is a member of the human race, their are many of us, competition is fierce. Stop pampering her. Stop making excuses. She will never survive under a cloud of false justification. And where is this "could of false justification"? Go back to hair–there’s a reason barbers are no longer allowed to practice medicine.
Aaah, very witty, no, i’m no doctor (and no, I’m no barber) but do I need to be. I am human and I just get so frustrated when I hear all these stories. I don’t see where this has come from. Why is this suddenly an issue now or have we been secretly tolerating this mystery illness since the dawn of man. You must see that it can only be in respose to a change in the environment with which we live in and therefor are in control of. Are ADD sufferers really so alienated from their own bodies that they can’t control there attention levels and if the answer is yes how can we treat this as safe and how (in other posts by other authors in this ng) can some say that they deserve special treatment (and understanding) to get a place in University next to people without it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Louise Brolic — — –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Response:
Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. A teacher is not a replacement parent, take an active role!
You are illiterate. Read what was written. She said that these projects were supposed to be done _in_ _class_. What is she supposed to do, invade the classroom? Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. Sound like every kid I went to school with. Let her fail and then make her feel like a failure. Stop making excuses for her.
Now let’s see. On the one hand you whine "take a more active role". OTOH, now she _is_ taking a "more active role" and you’re saying "knock off and let the kid fail". No small mind yours. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired Nice precedent you’ve set, well done. Why would she do it when she knows mum & dad will jump in in the end
So define "active role" then. of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the Yes that’s your job as a parent, encouragement and to teach the way of the world. Which does not mean making excuses for her or doing it for her.
??? How is "hounding her to get these projects done" "making excuses for her"? consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? You signed up to be a parent, now take responsibility! You’re child is a member of the human race, their are many of us, competition is fierce. Stop pampering her. Stop making excuses. She will never survive under a cloud of false justification.
And where is this "could of false justification"? Go back to hair–there’s a reason barbers are no longer allowed to practice medicine. http://www.users.bigpond.com/jadebarton/pertan/add.html — Louise Brolic
– — –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Response:
Reinforcement and rewards is another idea. After so many ___ weeks of having homework done, reward her with something she may enjoy. Maybe getting her nails or toes painted with you. It allows bonding time in a comfortable area.
I’m not saying that long-term rewards don’t work for every ADHD child–they may work for some. But we had no success at all with them. And, in fact, they made things worse because if my son didn’t achieve his reward, and it was something he really wanted, he felt terrible. And, sometimes, after a day or so, he’d forget about or didn’t care about the reward anymore. IMO, rewards for an ADHD child work best if they are immediate. "After Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Response:
I’m not saying that long-term rewards don’t work for every ADHD child–they may work for some. But we had no success at all with them. And, in fact, they made things worse because if my son didn’t achieve his reward, and it was something he really wanted, he felt terrible. And, sometimes, after a day or so, he’d forget about or didn’t care about the reward anymore. IMO, rewards for an ADHD child work best if they are immediate. "After
Both points have value-depending on the child. Since I am also in school-with the piles of homework <grin…often when the boys come home from school, we *all* sit down for X amount of time to do our work…if it is a lot, we set the timer for, say, 30 minutes. When the timer rings, we stop and take a 15 minute break-watch tv, play video games, whatever-and then when *that* timer rings, back to another 30 minutes…we have done this cycle for up to 2 hours (but luckily, that doesn’t happen often). What has worked for us is both large and small rewards…the smaller ones are rather immediate, the larger ones require a bit more time. Right now, the "contract" with our kids is: "Grades will be monitored on a weekly basis (one school has online access-the other is working up to that, so right now we rely on prinouts from the counselor). If the GPA in any given class falls to a D, no computers allowed during the week, but only on weekends, until the GPA comes back up to C. If any GPA falls to an F, no computer time at all until it rises back to a C. " My older son has been on the latter restriction for a few weeks now–his GPA in 2 classes fell to a low F. Working with his teachers-staying after school to make up work he failed to do- he has brought one up to a C, and the other is 1 point away from a C. I admit, it has been almost as hard on me to enforce this one, but hopefully he is learning the value of doing the work as he goes. I *do* check to see if he has homework, but as a 9th grader, I have not required him to have his agenda book initialed by all his teachers (one does-and he has kept his grades up in that class)…but if he continues this, I will… — Buny ——"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal." ~ Albert Camus ——One size does NOT fit all, heck, one size don’t even fit MOST!
Response:
And, I’m unconvinced that "consequences" won’t make things better if the child *cannot* do better. How can they?
But nknisley meant to write: And, I’m unconvinced that "consequences" will make things better if the child *cannot* do better. How can they? Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Response:
I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it?
Because the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree? :-)
Response:
In early to middle teens, I had to subtract five to seven years from the calendar age before I had a somewhat accurate gauge of how much to expect about things like patience, persistence, organization, abstraction, anticipation of consequences, etc. etc. The milestones of individual kids will vary enormously, but overall it is helpful to quit asking "what should it be?" and just ask "what works to get it done?" instead.
That’s what I keep reminding myself. What works? Of course just figuring that out is its own task . . .
Response:
That’s what I keep reminding myself. What works? Of course just
figuring that out is its own task . . .<< LOL and so true, Emma!
Response:
I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it? Because the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree? :-)
That’s the way the cookie bounces– I mean, the way the ball crumbles–I mean, ….. — Wes Groleau http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau
Response:
Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem.
A teacher is not a replacement parent, take an active role! Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her.
Sound like every kid I went to school with. Let her fail and then make her feel like a failure. Stop making excuses for her. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired
Nice precedent you’ve set, well done. Why would she do it when she knows mum & dad will jump in in the end of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the
Yes that’s your job as a parent, encouragement and to teach the way of the world. Which does not mean making excuses for her or doing it for her. consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we?
You signed up to be a parent, now take responsibility! You’re child is a member of the human race, their are many of us, competition is fierce. Stop pampering her. Stop making excuses. She will never survive under a cloud of false justification. http://www.users.bigpond.com/jadebarton/pertan/add.html — Louise Brolic
Response:
THIS IS ALL JUSTIFICATION FOR LAZINESS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO WEAK!!! You are a member of the human race, stop making excuses and contribute! If your bloodline can’t handle the pace evolution will remove you. If you want your bloodline to stay here, you have to earn it! If [we, the contributing community] give you a book advance, write the damn book! — Louise Brolic – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504. I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it? Never mind, it’s just a rhetorical question. Thanks for the reminder. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. This sounds so familiar. I can relate. I feel your pain and frustration, Kats. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Pretty typical ADHD behavior. BTDT and so have plenty of other parents and their ADHD kids. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning. And with both parents having ADD/ADHD, we’re not the best possible choices to help her learn these skills, try as we might. I flunked my senior history seminar in college precisely because I couldn’t do the 15-30 page paper using primary resources. Just couldn’t pull it all together. My husband got a book advance several years ago and has yet to write said book. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time. I made a lot of calls today trying to find a tutor here in Tucson who specializes in ADHD kids. No luck yet, but will follow up on it until I find one. I also called the 7th grade guidance counselor. Her first and primary suggestion was to go to www.loveandlogic.com. I’ve always tried to use natural and logical consequences, give choices, etc., for daily living kinds of things, although the last few months I’ve probably not been as good at it as I used to be, partly because I’ve felt I had to be so constantly on top of both kids with their school work, and partly because, well, I’ve been struggling with my own and marriage problems. I also remain unconvinced that the use of consequences for such things as school work is effective, unless letting a child do nothing and fail is truly an "option." Look at it this way, suppose the reason that your daughter couldn’t do her assignments was a purely physical one. Would you and the school continue to let her struggle and fail or would you and the school do something to help her do the work despite the physical problem (or exempt her from the work if accommodations weren’t possible)? And, if your daughter failed a class because of a physical problem, would she then be more willing or able to do the work? You and the school need to work together on this to try to develop your daughter’s executive management skills and provide accommodations for her lack of them until she is able to develop them. A friend of my daughter’s who has physical disabilities doesn’t take regular PE classes but adaptive PE. Her friend who is dyslexic gets study guides for tests a week in advance (then her mother drills her for hours over the next week). But the school staff is struggling (and at this point, so am I) with how to help my daughter, who tests gifted on nearly every test, comes across as highly verbal and bright, but whose performance rarely meets up with her potential. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project. She has a 504. It’s got a lot on it (I even posted the text of it here a few months ago), but functionally, I’m not sure it has mattered at all or made any difference. Four or 5 of her teachers would be working out well even without a 504, partly because of the way they run their classes, and partly because they "click" with DD. The others are mostly okay, except for these two long projects. One of these is the SFA teacher. SFA (Skills for Adolescents) is supposed to teacher these kids exactly what DD has trouble with: organization, goal-setting, time management, research, note-taking, and some personal growth and peer relationships type stuff. Unfortunately, what I see looks more like grading them on what they already know or can pick up quickly than on actually teaching them anything, at least where DD is concerned. I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? I wish I could say "no," but, my son is now a senior in high school, and to some extent, we still have to make sure he’s making progress on long term projects, although, we don’t actually have to supervise his doing the research and writing anymore. I really worry about what’s going to happen in college. <sigh I honestly don’t know how I managed to graduate. My transcript has everything from As to Fs. I had to stay an extra year to switch to a different major that wouldn’t require a paper to complete. Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504. Exempt her? How in the world do I get them to do that? Seriously. I can see major MAJOR resistance from teachers on this one and from the counselors who don’t want to present this idea to teachers. 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own. Not likely, given her genetic inheritance. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. Hmmm. Nah. I was only tempted for a second or two. <g My current plan: 1. Talk to the 2 teachers who assigned these two long-term research projects. See if they have any flexibility, and suggestions. Be willing to take whatever grade she gets, but reassure her that we have a plan to help her before the next time there’s a long-term project. 2. Find an ADD-knowledgable psychiatrist for a meds evaluation. She hasn’t had one in almost 2 years. Although her pediatrician handled switching her from Adderall to Concerta, she’s not comfortable evaluating the Zoloft dosage or other meds that might be more appropriate. 3. Find a therapist familiar with ADHD to work with DD on emotional, behavioral, and social issues. Perhaps also a family therapist and a marriage counselor to work on some of the other rough spots in our lives. 4. Find a tutor with expertise in ADHD children, preferably also ADHD children who are gifted. DD may have dysgraphia or a related LD. Although her keyboarding skills have helped a lot, Thanks so much, Nancy, for everything. Kats
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504.
I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it? Never mind, it’s just a rhetorical question. Thanks for the reminder. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. This sounds so familiar. I can relate. I feel your pain and frustration, Kats. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Pretty typical ADHD behavior. BTDT and so have plenty of other parents and their ADHD kids. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning.
And with both parents having ADD/ADHD, we’re not the best possible choices to help her learn these skills, try as we might. I flunked my senior history seminar in college precisely because I couldn’t do the 15-30 page paper using primary resources. Just couldn’t pull it all together. My husband got a book advance several years ago and has yet to write said book. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time.
I made a lot of calls today trying to find a tutor here in Tucson who specializes in ADHD kids. No luck yet, but will follow up on it until I find one. I also called the 7th grade guidance counselor. Her first and primary suggestion was to go to www.loveandlogic.com. I’ve always tried to use natural and logical consequences, give choices, etc., for daily living kinds of things, although the last few months I’ve probably not been as good at it as I used to be, partly because I’ve felt I had to be so constantly on top of both kids with their school work, and partly because, well, I’ve been struggling with my own and marriage problems. I also remain unconvinced that the use of consequences for such things as school work is effective, unless letting a child do nothing and fail is truly an "option." Look at it this way, suppose the reason that your daughter couldn’t do her assignments was a purely physical one. Would you and the school continue to let her struggle and fail or would you and the school do something to help her do the work despite the physical problem (or exempt her from the work if accommodations weren’t possible)? And, if your daughter failed a class because of a physical problem, would she then be more willing or able to do the work? You and the school need to work together on this to try to develop your daughter’s executive management skills and provide accommodations for her lack of them until she is able to develop them.
A friend of my daughter’s who has physical disabilities doesn’t take regular PE classes but adaptive PE. Her friend who is dyslexic gets study guides for tests a week in advance (then her mother drills her for hours over the next week). But the school staff is struggling (and at this point, so am I) with how to help my daughter, who tests gifted on nearly every test, comes across as highly verbal and bright, but whose performance rarely meets up with her potential. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project.
She has a 504. It’s got a lot on it (I even posted the text of it here a few months ago), but functionally, I’m not sure it has mattered at all or made any difference. Four or 5 of her teachers would be working out well even without a 504, partly because of the way they run their classes, and partly because they "click" with DD. The others are mostly okay, except for these two long projects. One of these is the SFA teacher. SFA (Skills for Adolescents) is supposed to teacher these kids exactly what DD has trouble with: organization, goal-setting, time management, research, note-taking, and some personal growth and peer relationships type stuff. Unfortunately, what I see looks more like grading them on what they already know or can pick up quickly than on actually teaching them anything, at least where DD is concerned. I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? I wish I could say "no," but, my son is now a senior in high school, and to some extent, we still have to make sure he’s making progress on long term projects, although, we don’t actually have to supervise his doing the research and writing anymore. I really worry about what’s going to happen in college.
<sigh I honestly don’t know how I managed to graduate. My transcript has everything from As to Fs. I had to stay an extra year to switch to a different major that wouldn’t require a paper to complete. Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504.
Exempt her? How in the world do I get them to do that? Seriously. I can see major MAJOR resistance from teachers on this one and from the counselors who don’t want to present this idea to teachers. 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own.
Not likely, given her genetic inheritance. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either.
Hmmm. Nah. I was only tempted for a second or two. <g My current plan: 1. Talk to the 2 teachers who assigned these two long-term research projects. See if they have any flexibility, and suggestions. Be willing to take whatever grade she gets, but reassure her that we have a plan to help her before the next time there’s a long-term project. 2. Find an ADD-knowledgable psychiatrist for a meds evaluation. She hasn’t had one in almost 2 years. Although her pediatrician handled switching her from Adderall to Concerta, she’s not comfortable evaluating the Zoloft dosage or other meds that might be more appropriate. 3. Find a therapist familiar with ADHD to work with DD on emotional, behavioral, and social issues. Perhaps also a family therapist and a marriage counselor to work on some of the other rough spots in our lives. 4. Find a tutor with expertise in ADHD children, preferably also ADHD children who are gifted. DD may have dysgraphia or a related LD. Although her keyboarding skills have helped a lot, Thanks so much, Nancy, for everything. Kats
Response:
Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem.
Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her.
This sounds so familiar. I can relate. I feel your pain and frustration, Kats. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects.
Pretty typical ADHD behavior. BTDT and so have plenty of other parents and their ADHD kids. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript?
Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time. Look at it this way, suppose the reason that your daughter couldn’t do her assignments was a purely physical one. Would you and the school continue to let her struggle and fail or would you and the school do something to help her do the work despite the physical problem (or exempt her from the work if accommodations weren’t possible)? And, if your daughter failed a class because of a physical problem, would she then be more willing or able to do the work? You and the school need to work together on this to try to develop your daughter’s executive management skills and provide accommodations for her lack of them until she is able to develop them. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project. I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we?
I wish I could say "no," but, my son is now a senior in high school, and to some extent, we still have to make sure he’s making progress on long term projects, although, we don’t actually have to supervise his doing the research and writing anymore. I really worry about what’s going to happen in college. Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504. 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Response:
<snip Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504. I knew this. I really did know this. Why didn’t I act on it? Never mind, it’s just a rhetorical question. Thanks for the reminder.
I wished I’d have had me, knowing what I know now, giving advice to me when I didn’t know what I know now. I could kick myself for every time I should have been more proactive and wasn’t. Things rarely turned out for the best. 
I don’t know why you didn’t act, but I know some of reasons I didn’t act in similar situations: I listened to teachers and school counselors who said "He needs to learn to do this on his own"; I was dealing with more critical problems with other family members; I was discouraged, weary, and frustrated about having to oversee the homework assignments–and kind of resentful that other parents with kids my son’s age didn’t have to do that anymore; I was just worn-out dealing with teachers and the school; and it was difficult to work so hard on someone’s behalf when that someone sometimes saw me as a co-conspirator with the school and teachers in making him do that hated homework. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning. And with both parents having ADD/ADHD, we’re not the best possible choices to help her learn these skills, try as we might. I flunked my senior history seminar in college precisely because I couldn’t do the 15-30 page paper using primary resources. Just couldn’t pull it all together. My husband got a book advance several years ago and has yet to write said book.
At least you can relate to what your DD is going through. My DH just cannot understand why OS does what he does (and doesn’t do what he doesn’t do), and sometimes I, too, can get pretty exasperated with a kid who consistently forgets the most important or most basic things. And, another good thing is that neither you or your DH have to hear: "Well, she doesn’t take after me!" 
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time. I made a lot of calls today trying to find a tutor here in Tucson who specializes in ADHD kids. No luck yet, but will follow up on it until I find one. I also called the 7th grade guidance counselor. Her first and primary suggestion was to go to www.loveandlogic.com. I’ve always tried to use natural and logical consequences, give choices, etc., for daily living kinds of things, although the last few months I’ve probably not been as good at it as I used to be, partly because I’ve felt I had to be so constantly on top of both kids with their school work, and partly because, well, I’ve been struggling with my own and marriage problems. I also remain unconvinced that the use of consequences for such things as school work is effective, unless letting a child do nothing and fail is truly an "option."
And, I’m unconvinced that "consequences" won’t make things better if the child *cannot* do better. How can they? I’d suggest to the counselor it isn’t "logical" to let a child fail because she can’t do something because of her ADHD. Where’s the logic, or love, in that? Would the counselor suggest to a parent of a child with asthma to just let that child learn to "breathe on her own" and suffer the consequences if she couldn’t? Why should a child with a disorder of the brain be given any less support and understanding than a child with a disorder of the lungs? <snip A friend of my daughter’s who has physical disabilities doesn’t take regular PE classes but adaptive PE. Her friend who is dyslexic gets study guides for tests a week in advance (then her mother drills her for hours over the next week). But the school staff is struggling (and at this point, so am I) with how to help my daughter, who tests gifted on nearly every test, comes across as highly verbal and bright, but whose performance rarely meets up with her potential.
In the current situation, I’d suggest that they could help by: breaking down long term assignments into smaller ones and monitoring your daughter to make sure each of the smaller steps have been taken at the appropriate intervals. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project. She has a 504. It’s got a lot on it (I even posted the text of it here a few months ago),
Now I remember. And a good 504 it was too! You did a good job advocating for your daughter. but functionally, I’m not sure it has mattered at all or made any difference. Four or 5 of her teachers would be working out well even without a 504, partly because of the way they run their classes, and partly because they "click" with DD. The others are mostly okay, except for these two long projects. One of these is the SFA teacher. SFA (Skills for Adolescents) is supposed to teacher these kids exactly what DD has trouble with: organization, goal-setting, time management, research, note-taking, and some personal growth and peer relationships type stuff. Unfortunately, what I see looks more like grading them on what they already know or can pick up quickly than on actually teaching them anything, at least where DD is concerned.
That stinks! <snip Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504. Exempt her? How in the world do I get them to do that? Seriously. I can see major MAJOR resistance from teachers on this one and from the counselors who don’t want to present this idea to teachers.
Of course there will probably be major resistance. However, if nothing else works, you gotta do what you gotta do. And, look at it this way, if you go into the next 504 meeting with a list of alternative ways to deal with the long-term project problem and "exemption" is one of them, maybe your other alternatives will look better to the school. Then again, maybe not. <sigh 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own. Not likely, given her genetic inheritance. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. Hmmm. Nah. I was only tempted for a second or two. <g
Like many temptations, it looks good now, but you’ll only suffer for it later. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My current plan: 1. Talk to the 2 teachers who assigned these two long-term research projects. See if they have any flexibility, and suggestions. Be willing to take whatever grade she gets, but reassure her that we have a plan to help her before the next time there’s a long-term project. 2. Find an ADD-knowledgable psychiatrist for a meds evaluation. She hasn’t had one in almost 2 years. Although her pediatrician handled switching her from Adderall to Concerta, she’s not comfortable evaluating the Zoloft dosage or other meds that might be more appropriate. 3. Find a therapist familiar with ADHD to work with DD on emotional, behavioral, and social issues. Perhaps also a family therapist and a marriage counselor to work on some of the other rough spots in our lives. 4. Find a tutor with expertise in ADHD children, preferably also ADHD children who are gifted. DD may have dysgraphia or a related LD. Although her keyboarding skills have helped a lot,
The next time a troll comes into ASAD and claims that ADHD results from bad parenting or that parents of ADHD kids use medication for a quick fix, you’ll be one of the shining examples showing just how wrong they are. Thanks so much, Nancy, for everything.
Glad I could help. Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Response:
Nancy wrote.. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and
she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. <<< I agree entirely with your bottom line, especially the last step above. Boy do I remember that "logical consquences" phase in middle school, with both my ADD kids. It didn’t help a thing, any more than it would have helped to tell them to "snap out of it." Perhaps the best thing that parents can do, from middle on through high school, is consider themselve to be longterm coaches, who expect to work themselves out of that job, by inches, over a verrrrrrrry long time. The real challenge is to undertake that job knowing it comes with no pay and little, if any, short term gratitude <g.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Nancy wrote.. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. <<< I agree entirely with your bottom line, especially the last step above. Boy do I remember that "logical consquences" phase in middle school, with both my ADD kids. It didn’t help a thing, any more than it would have helped to tell them to "snap out of it." Perhaps the best thing that parents can do, from middle on through high school, is consider themselve to be longterm coaches, who expect to work themselves out of that job, by inches, over a verrrrrrrry long time. The real challenge is to undertake that job knowing it comes with no pay and little, if any, short term gratitude <g.
Excellent post, Carla. As a person who will have kids in Jr. High pretty soon, I am going to print it out and reread it.
Response:
Thanks for letting me know that what I said was useful, Emma (in this venue, you can never be quite sure what ever gets seen <grin.) I sometimes wonder how candid to be with parents who are newer to the ADD scene, as if they knew just how long they’d probably have to remain actively engaged in being a "hall monitor for the brain" <g, they might throw up their hands in prospective exhaustion before they even begin. Yet at the same time, I’ve seen the most conflict and disappointment arise when they hope/expect that Johnny will get his diagnosis, take his meds, and get enough help at school that they then can return to having the "regular" expectations about what their child should be doing at a given age, such as having logical consequences be sufficient by the early teens. If there is any hallmark of ADD, beyond attentional variability, it’s about delayed development the sheer amount of time it takes to grow up past it, and how slowly it usually occurs. It took until about age 20 for the attentional/emotional age of my own kids to be fairly close to their intellectual and calendar ages, and for some ADD adults it never completely synchronizes. In early to middle teens, I had to subtract five to seven years from the calendar age before I had a somewhat accurate gauge of how much to expect about things like patience, persistence, organization, abstraction, anticipation of consequences, etc. etc. The milestones of individual kids will vary enormously, but overall it is helpful to quit asking "what should it be?" and just ask "what works to get it done?" instead.
Response:
Kats, I totally agree with Chris Green’s idea of weekly reports. My parents did weekly reports from first or second grade through highschool with my brother who’s ADD. They worked for him with added help from my parents, of course! :) I know it may seem hard now to deal with your daughter and I wish I could say it will get easier…but it won’t if she falls in the hands of our school system. My brother suffered from elementary school through his sophomore year in highschool. He was lucky if he achieved a 2.0 GPA. My parents pulled him out of H.S. and put him into a private school. That is an idea if you can afford it! My parents had to cut quite a few costs but saving their mental state was definitely worth it! Reinforcement and rewards is another idea. After so many ___ weeks of having homework done, reward her with something she may enjoy. Maybe getting her nails or toes painted with you. It allows bonding time in a comfortable area. Hope this helps! Beermann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? Kats
Response:
Excellent post, Nancy. Parents, remember 7TH GRADE IS HELL! There is enormous psychological pressure around that age especially if its the first year in a large school. My ADD daughter started having problems with her locker in 7th grade and we got bad reports back from a few teachers. She was a good enough student with fabulous reading speed and visual memory that she got by without her ADD getting diagnosed. Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class.
With all the distractions that go on in class are you surprised that she is behind? Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem.
And the result is? Based on my experience, you should never assume that a teacher will call you if there is a problem unless the teacher has an established track record of doing that. Heck, in my experience, you can’t even count on teachers to contact you when that’s written into a 504.
Yup. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. This sounds so familiar. I can relate. I feel your pain and frustration, Kats. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade.
That’s how schools work. Don’t blame your kid. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects.
Maybe she hates them as much as you do. Many of these projects are busywork rich and learning poor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Pretty typical ADHD behavior. BTDT and so have plenty of other parents and their ADHD kids. What often looks like a lack of willingness or motivation can very well be a lack of difficulty getting focused and the result of deficient executive function skills like organization, time management and planning. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? Based on my personal experience, I feel that letting an ADHD child fail under circumstances such as this teaches the child only that she is a failure. It won’t make her any more willing, or able, to do the project next time. Look at it this way, suppose the reason that your daughter couldn’t do her assignments was a purely physical one. Would you and the school continue to let her struggle and fail or would you and the school do something to help her do the work despite the physical problem (or exempt her from the work if accommodations weren’t possible)? And, if your daughter failed a class because of a physical problem, would she then be more willing or able to do the work? You and the school need to work together on this to try to develop your daughter’s executive management skills and provide accommodations for her lack of them until she is able to develop them. I don’t remember if your daughter has an IEP or 504, but those can include helpful accommodations like breaking down projects into smaller steps, each with their own deadline, and keeping you informed if your daughter is having a problem making progress on a long-term project. I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? I wish I could say "no," but, my son is now a senior in high school, and to some extent, we still have to make sure he’s making progress on long term projects, although, we don’t actually have to supervise his doing the research and writing anymore. I really worry about what’s going to happen in college.
There’s some famous lawyer with a disability who’s mom helped him all the way through. OTOH there are lots of 20 somethings in jail who didn’t get any help. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Seems to me that right now your choices are: 1. You and the school work together to help your daughter develop the types of skills she needs to do these projects or exempting her from these types of projects via an IEP or 504. 2. A miracle happens and your daughter suddenly is able to develop these skills on her own. 3. You and the school let your daughter "suffer the consequences" and she continues to fail. If that happens you may not have to worry about high school, as she may drop out, and you won’t have to worry about college either. Nancy Unique, like everyone else
Where the idea cme from that anyone "makes it" all on their own I don’t know. I know it’s easy to fail all on your own. -George
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Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? Kats
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Like most ADD/ADHD kids, my daughter (age 12, 7th grade) has struggled mightily with long-term projects, anything involving research, and anything that can’t be completed in one sitting. She’s now dug herself quite a whole (with the teachers’ help, IMO) on two separate projects, one that was due this week and one that’s due on the 13th. These were both long-term research projects that were supposedly being done in class. Although I was aware and a little concerned, I left it to the teachers to supervise and call me if there was a problem. Last weekend DD worked all day Sunday with her dad, trying to complete as much of the first project as she could. I think she only completed about half of it. This weekend she’ll spend HOURS working on the second project, again with dad, as I’ve opted out because of too many fights with her. I’ve helped her with every project up until these last two, often feeling like *I* was the one who deserved the grade. I’m tired of doing it, not just in a selfish way (although that’s definitely part of it–I feel really resentful), but also because I haven’t seen any progress at all in her ability or willingness to even try to be responsible for these kinds of projects. Should we keep pressing and (what feels like) hounding her to get these projects done? Or is it time to let her suffer the consequences now, while it’s just 7th grade and won’t be on her high school transcript? I/we can’t keep doing this all through high school and college, can we? Kats
Sounds like my son and your 7th grader have a lot in common. 7th grade was a brutal year for him. He would say that he was doing projects in class, when he was doing nothing of the kind, and the first we’d hear that it wasn’t done was when we got a progress report with a zero on it. Consequences may or may not stick. Our son’s ambition in 7th grade was to avoid having to grow up: good or bad grades were no motivation whatsoever. We kept after our son to finish projects, even to the point of keeping him up all night to finish them on a couple occasions. We figured that as long as he wasn’t going to learn anything from a bad grade anyway, we didn’t want them on his record. Some things that have worked for us: Frequent progress reporting. Our son does much better with weekly progress reports in all his classes. We could get daily, but the incremental improvement wouldn’t be near as much. This keeps projects from getting procrastinated into a night-before-it’s-due rush, and it allows us to help him attend to a class in which he’s falling behind or missing assignments. Nondistracting study environment. We are strict about no TV and no computer games during the school year. Nobody and nothing interrupts our son while he’s studying, except we’ll check up and make sure he’s on task and not blocked. His room has a radio (he focuses better with background music, your mileage may vary), but anything that we can tell distracts him gets moved out. Tutoring and reviews. He’ll sometimes miss out completely on a concept that’s been taught, then blow off an assignment or tank on a quiz because he’s lost. This gets back to us quickly because of the progress reports, so I go back and tutor him in whatever it was he missed. We’ll just do whatever it takes until he’s mastered it — guided exploration, extra practice work, memory drills, whatever fits the subject at hand. Structuring assignments. I won’t do assignments for him, but if the assignment requires more than one step, he often gets lost, so I’ll start out by working with him to organize and make sure he understands the steps he has to go through to get it done properly. This may mean, for example, breaking down an essay theme into a series of four or five questions; or writing out a plan for completing a project that has a number of parts. Then he has to follow the plan; if he doesn’t, he has to stop and go back to where he went off. Having the plan in writing and in front of him while he works seems to be enough most of the time. About the third quarter of seventh grade, he seemed to get the idea that school was worth doing well in, and that made it a lot easier to work with him — we could get him to cooperate, instead of having to drag him through everything. He wasn’t diagnosed ADHD until this year (9th grade), and he’s now on Ritalin and in counseling. This is more for the social manifestations of ADHD than the academic ones, as he can make good grades and test scores, and retain what he learns, without more accommodations than we are already used to. The way I’ve explained what we do, it sounds a lot more orderly than it really works in practice. He’s tried to stonewall us many times, and lots of his assignments get done with a lot of loud arguing, but it’s gotten him from making C’s and D’s and not giving a whit about school to making A’s and B’s and finding out that learning things can be enjoyable. If your daughter is diagnosed ADD or ADHD, then the school should be willing to make some substantial accommodations for her that will allow her teachers and you to help her become a better learner. Lots of school teachers, principals, and ed psychs are still totally clueless when it comes to ADD, though, and it will help if you can be patient and persistent with them as well as with your daughter. — Chris Green
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