Question:

Parents’ depression linked to children’s allergy – Article X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 4.64 Posted for informational purposes only. Gain from it what you will… Parents’ depression linked to children’s allergy By Michelle RizzoThu Jun 9 Parents with major depression or panic disorder are more likely to have children with asthma and other allergy-based conditions, according to study findings published in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine. The fact that the association held only for biological children supports the idea of a "shared genetic liability." Dr. Ramin Mojtabai, from Columbia University, in New York, assessed the link between childhood allergy disorders and parental major depression, generalized anxiety disorder, and panic attacks in a sample of 9,240 parent-child pairs drawn from the 1999 US National Health Interview Survey. The Composite International Diagnostic Interview, Short Form was used to make parental psychiatric diagnoses, and allergic disorders included hay fever, respiratory allergies, eczema, wheezing, food allergies and asthma. A total of 8686 of the parent-child pairs were biological and 554 were nonbiological. Thirty-one percent of the children and 19 percent of the adults had allergic disorders. Major depression was diagnosed 6 percent of the parents, panic attacks in 3 percent and generalized anxiety disorder in 3 percent. A statistically significant association between major depression and panic attacks in parents and allergic disorders in children was seen only in biological parent-child pairs. Further, in analyzes restricted to biological parent-child pairs, the association between parental major depression and panic attacks and childhood allergy-based disorders was statistically significant only in mothers. Mojtabai, who is currently at the Beth Israel Medical Center in New York, observed an association between parental allergic disorders and childhood allergic disorders in biological and nonbiological parent-child pairs. There were no gender differences found in the association of parental and childhood allergic disorders. An additive effect of parental allergic disorders and psychopathology was observed in the risk of allergic disorders in children These findings should be viewed in the context of previous studies that found an increased risk of depression in children of parents with allergic disorders, Mojtabai told Reuters Health. "In this context, data from the present study further support the possibility of common genes for depression and panic disorder on the one hand, and allergic disorders on the other hand," Mojtabai said. SOURCE: Psychosomatic Medicine, May 2005. — Elliott      remove eee to eeemail http://home.earthlink.net/~ejk2/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:: panic disorder are more likely to have children ::with asthma and other allergy-based conditions, My son has been asthmatic since he was two. Terrible allergies too. Interesting article. Thanks for posting it Jackie ~*~Dreaming permits each of and every one of us to be quietly and safely insane every night of our lives~*~ -William Dement — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:: panic disorder are more likely to have children ::with asthma and other allergy-based conditions, My son has been asthmatic since he was two. Terrible allergies too. Interesting article. Thanks for posting it

My daughter is also asthmatic and there is no asthma in mine or Christie’s family. I find this interesting too (and not a little weird). Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:: panic disorder are more likely to have children ::with asthma and other allergy-based conditions, My son has been asthmatic since he was two. Terrible allergies too. Interesting article. Thanks for posting it My daughter is also asthmatic and there is no asthma in mine or Christie’s family. I find this interesting too (and not a little weird).

This is strange.  My daughter has mild asthma, no one else in the family has it.  There are a few of us in the family who have other allergies, me being one of them, and that certainly has passed it’s way on to my daughter. Tono — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

You are fun to be around Charlie Brown Lucy — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :: panic disorder are more likely to have children ::with asthma and other allergy-based conditions, My son has been asthmatic since he was two. Terrible allergies too. Interesting article. Thanks for posting it My daughter is also asthmatic and there is no asthma in mine or Christie’s family. I find this interesting too (and not a little weird). Philip

My daughter is also asthmatic..Her father is also asthmatic..The poor child stood no chance! Caz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

We keep polluting our air with toxins from car exhausts, among other things. For some reason, our society thinks that breathing polluted air is healthy for us and our unborn children. Plus, all of the garbage and sewerage that goes into our oceans and air, each day from the developing world. A poisoned world will result in this planet being less inhabitable for humans, animals and plants. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

Society doesn’t think it’s healthy.  It’s just that there is no easy solution at this point.  If you could stop generating pollution and garbage you would do it right?

Response:

We keep polluting our air with toxins from car exhausts, among other things. For some reason, our society thinks that breathing polluted air is healthy for us and our unborn children. Plus, all of the garbage and sewerage that goes into our oceans and air, each day from the developing world. A poisoned world will result in this planet being less inhabitable for humans, animals and plants. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted. “Woody Long” <woodylon…@hotmail.com wrote in message news:2e82b89c.0410201421.60532162@posting.google.com… Quacks scratching their heads Kids’ illnesses baffle researchers More children then ever are contracting asthma, autism and other maladies, prompting plans for a major study to find the causes

If scientists need a major study to find the causes, then I suggest that no one here leap to conclusions about air pollution or any other popular boogeymen. Let the scientists do their job and we’ll see. Remember how there were a thousand things they used to blame for peptic ulcers?  Emotional stress, “Type A personality,” spicy food, too much food, etc. etc. etc.?  Research finally revealed it to be a previously unsuspected bacterium–H. pylori. That should teach us not to blame things we personally don’t like (whether it’s air pollution or stress) without doing the science first. –

Response:

Are these conditions caused by

toxins? By genetics? Too much television? Bad diets? Home situations?

Response:

We should have placed a priority on alternative and renewable fuels DECADES ago. Our country is dependent on a resource, oil, which causes unhealthy pollution, and which is going to less available and much more expensive. Our energy policy is insane.

We keep polluting our air with toxins from car exhausts, among other

things.

For some reason, our society thinks that breathing polluted air is

healthy

for us and our unborn children. Plus, all of the garbage and sewerage

that

goes into our oceans and air, each day from the developing world. A poisoned world will result in this planet being less inhabitable for humans, animals and plants. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted. <snip Society doesn’t think it’s healthy.  It’s just that there is no easy solution at this point.  If you could stop generating pollution and garbage you would do it right?

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You can’t possibly believe that air pollution is good for one’s health? I don’t have to wait for the “pc” scientists to make their findings. Air pollution, coming from fossil fuels, is a major cause of health problems, and it is going to get worse before it gets better. Have you heard about the Asian Brown Cloud? It is two miles thick, and spreads out over a huge area, including India (which doesn’t surprise me). We are slowly choking this planet to death with oil byproducts and through our abuse of the Earth’s resources. I feel sorry for future generations having to breath poisons into their lungs 24 hours per day.

If scientists need a major study to find the causes, then I suggest that no one here leap to conclusions about air pollution or any other popular boogeymen. Let the scientists do their job and we’ll see. Remember how there were a thousand things they used to blame for peptic ulcers?  Emotional stress, “Type A personality,” spicy food, too much food, etc. etc. etc.?  Research finally revealed it to be a previously unsuspected bacterium–H. pylori. That should teach us not to blame things we personally don’t like (whether it’s air pollution or stress) without doing the science first.

Response:

You can’t possibly believe that air pollution is good for one’s health?

It;s one factor and a negative one all right but air quailty in our cities here is already far far better than in many third world cities (as you point out) where I think asthma rates are lower.

I don’t have to wait for the “pc” scientists to make their findings. Air pollution, coming from fossil fuels, is a major cause of health problems, and it is going to get worse before it gets better. Have you heard about the Asian Brown Cloud? It is two miles thick, and spreads out over a huge area, including India (which doesn’t surprise me). We are slowly choking this planet to death with oil byproducts and through our abuse of the Earth’s resources. I feel sorry for future generations having to breath poisons into their lungs 24 hours per day.

Response:

CanDo wrote:

You can’t possibly believe that air pollution is good for one’s health?

Where’s the evidence that air pollution causes autism (one of the illnesses cited in Woody Long’s cited article)?

I don’t have to wait for the “pc” scientists to make their findings. Air pollution, coming from fossil fuels, is a major cause of health problems,

Scientists don’t deny that.  But they are trying to learn the specific causes of specific illnesses like autism.  I don’t think there’s any evidence that air pollution causes autism, just like there’s no evidence it causes peptic ulcers. It’s not the scientists who are “pc,” it’s the laypersons who are trying to bend science to fit their own preconceived ideologies.  I’ll bet you don’t feel that the scientists who are trying to prove the magnitude of the global warming problem are “pc”.  That’s because you ideologically agree with that issue but not the other issue.

Have you heard about the Asian Brown Cloud? It is two miles thick, and spreads out over a huge area, including India (which doesn’t surprise me). We are slowly choking this planet to death with oil byproducts and through our abuse of the Earth’s resources.

We Americans aren’t choking this planet to death at all.  We’ve done more to clean up our own air than most Third World countries have.  The fact that you have had to cite an example from the Third World is proof of that.  Another example of that is the fact that the Kyoto Protocol specifically exempted China and India from the restrictions placed on U.S. greenhouse gases.  Why?  Because they don’t want anybody interfering with their industrialization despite its contribution to greenhouse gas emissions. I’ve been to Mexico City and let me tell you, the pollution there is far worse than any place in America–even Los Angeles.

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sorry about posting 2 long uneducated posts.My intention was to post one long uneducated and that would be it.I didn’t think my 1st post was gonna go through so i rewrote another

Response:

I have worked in some schools on the floors.Doing removal of asbestos tiles as well as install new floor tiles.One thing that blew me away was the janitors called us back the naxt day saying some tiles came loose.These morons took a garden hose and hosed the gym floor real good.water got under the tiles some to the point where they floated up off the floor completely.Those were the only ones we replaced.The whole dam floor should have been pulled and these guys fired.What were they thinking? you get water under there and behind the baseboards and black mold starts thriving of the construction materials in a perfect enviorment.Your kids are in there doing all this physical activity breathing in real deeply while killer mold spores are flying through the air.While i don’t believe the garden hose is a common practice though regular practices are about the same from what i seen.I have seen this done at grocery stores as well.And i don’t believe they are using a hospital grade disenfectant and a’m not sure it would matter when your dealing with that much moisture.I’m only a uneducated construction worker so i don’t really know but i think it’s a very valid point from what i have read about black mold.I got a whole huge section wall full of this stuff at work and have been pretty much sick since i started this new job.I never really knew about black mold untill i started digging around on the internet for facts about it and health.Trying to figure why my sinus problems without seeing a doctor.That’s how i found this forum and thought i’d post.Gonna try nasal irrigation and see if it helps me.I haven’t had the mold tested at work and it is not my responsibility.Seems there’s a big lack of concern for the fellow man when it comes to money.If i’m being poisoned at work from toxic mold and kids are as well in schools then people need to get off there asses and find out why.Seems the ball is just getting rolling on this black mold issue but after alot more people get sick and die it’s gonna be huge.Just wondering how many kids will need live a life of hell before we find solid answers as to why.Kinda makes you think that’s what they want.but i’m pretty sick at the present and can’t really think to clear with these sinus problems making me dizzy giving me headaches etc…

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Haven’t read all the post but sounded like CanDo hit the nail on the head as it is probally multiple factors.I have installed flooring commercially for 8 years and have worked in many schools.One big problem i notice is the way they clean the floors without any common sense.I seen these clowns literally hosing down a gym floor(yes they had a garden hose hooked up)then mop it up.They did this right after we layed new tile.I know this cause they called us back and were like “some tiles came loose and we need repairs”This was like the next day after we installed the new floor.Walmart did the same thing but just sloshed water over all the floor with a mop sealed it in with wax.I can’t believe these idiots, no common sense when it comes to a simple task as mopping a floor.Water gets uder the tiles and loosens up the glue tiles come loose but not all.You know there is water under there trapped.Water under tiles and behind the wall base and you get toxic black mold.Your kid is playing basketball or whatever they do in the gym and breathes in the killer spores.Gets allergies lung disease etc..lives a life of hell.This is so baffeling.Though i don’t believe it anyone thing that is t blame but everything as cando posted.Not to mention half the schools around here still got asbestos tile on the floor.You can always tell asbestos tile from newer tiles by there size.Abs tiles are 8 inches square where modern vct tiles are 12″ square.Tiles are 1 percent asbestos the glue used was 3%.Anyway my point being that black mold is probally something that needs to be looked into and people need to stop being so ignorant.I started a job about a year ago and have been sick ever since.Just more than usual this week.Could be the massive infestation of black mold at my workplace might not be.I haven’t seen a doctor yet or tested the mold.Noone really seems to be concerned.after reading about black mold it’s really scarey and even more scary when you say to yourself.I got all those symptoms.The curse of king tuts tomb makes so much sense.I just hope i live more than 5 years.A couple weeks ago a never really even know what black mold was though it could be killing me as well as your children due to some dumb ass janitors not having a clue how to do a simple job.I mean weather you know what black mold is or not this is stupid eather way.Sorry about my poor grammar and rambling.What you expect from a construction worker? Just thought i would throw that into the fire.

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wrote: I wonder if cats are reacting to crud in the wall-to-wall carpeting. After all, unlike humans, they lie down right on the carpeting most of the time.

It could be but that close to the floor all sorts of pollutants are liekly to be concentrated.

(1) stayed away from a somewhat smoky office – now I work at home What sort of smoke?  Cigarette smoke?

Yes.  Smoking is banned now in most of the building but it still is allowed in the cafeteria and you can smell itr everywhere. This is a tobacco state and this particular employer is tied to that industry. I work 99% at home now though….

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It’s now known that *indoor* air pollution can be up to 100 times worse than outdoor air pollution, due to the tightly sealed buildings (to conserve energy), wall-to-wall carpeting, etc. In the last 20 years, veterinarians have noted a sharp increase in feline asthma (asthma in pet cats). Wow!

I wonder if cats are reacting to crud in the wall-to-wall carpeting. After all, unlike humans, they lie down right on the carpeting most of the time. Here is an asthma inhaler made specifically for pet cats: http://www.aerokat.com/overview.htm

I think indoor air pollution is certainly what did me in. I was starting to get worse again after surgery until I both (1) stayed away from a somewhat smoky office – now I work at home

What sort of smoke?  Cigarette smoke?

Response:

You can’t possibly believe that air pollution is good for one’s health? It;s one factor and a negative one all right but air quailty in our cities here is already far far better than in many third world cities (as you point out) where I think asthma rates are lower.

I think you mean *outdoor* air quality. It’s now known that *indoor* air pollution can be up to 100 times worse than outdoor air pollution, due to the tightly sealed buildings (to conserve energy), wall-to-wall carpeting, etc. In the last 20 years, veterinarians have noted a sharp increase in feline asthma (asthma in pet cats).  I’ll bet feral cats don’t have that problem.

Response:

I think you mean *outdoor* air quality.

Yes I was referring to outdoor air quality in the context of pollution.

Response:

It’s now known that *indoor* air pollution can be up to 100 times worse than outdoor air pollution, due to the tightly sealed buildings (to conserve energy), wall-to-wall carpeting, etc. In the last 20 years, veterinarians have noted a sharp increase in feline asthma (asthma in pet cats).

Wow!

I’ll bet feral cats don’t have that problem.

I think indoor air pollution is certainly what did me in. I was starting to get worse again after surgery until I both (1) stayed away from a somewhat smoky office – now I work at home (2) maximized ventilation at home Now my nose and sinuses are opening up wider and wider again. What really made an enormous difference was running a fan out another window all the time during the summer.   Just a solid two weeks of that seems to have made a *permanent” change – it finally started to open up on the right as well as the left. But going back into that office for even half a day sets me back for a day or two. A can see now exactly where the balance point lies. It’s so funny because other people work in that office for decades and  don’t react at all….

Response:

We keep polluting our air with toxins from car exhausts, among other things. For some reason, our society thinks that breathing polluted air is healthy for us and our unborn children. Plus, all of the garbage and sewerage that goes into our oceans and air, each day from the developing world. A poisoned world will result in this planet being less inhabitable for humans, animals and plants. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted.

Quacks scratching their heads Kids’ illnesses baffle researchers More children then ever are contracting asthma, autism and other maladies, prompting plans for a major study to find the causes BY TOM WEBB ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS WASHINGTON – In ever-growing numbers, something seems to be poisoning America’s children. But what? Rates are soaring for diagnoses of childhood asthma, autism, allergies and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Scientists don’t fully understand what’s happening among this generation of children — but they’re worried by a mounting toll of sick kids and the growing costs to families, schools, taxpayers and society. In Minnesota, autism diagnoses have grown twentyfold in a generation, making a once-rare condition an unhappy fact of modern life. Now, the federal government hopes to unravel the mystery by launching the largest study of children in U.S. history. It’s called the National Children’s Study, a two-decade-long effort that would track 100,000 children from the womb into adulthood, examining their genetic makeup, environment, eating habits, home situations and health. The cost: $2.7 billion. “It’s big science. It’s the same order of magnitude as the human genome project,” said Dr. Peter Scheidt, director of the study’s program office, at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. The study seeks to answer questions now raging within medical circles, among educators and in parent groups. Are these conditions caused by toxins? By genetics? Too much television? Bad diets? Home situations? Possibly some combination? It has many supporters, who cite the staggering cost in medical care and in the effect on families. They welcome the effort to systematically explore why this is happening. But in Washington, the competition for research money is always fierce, and even some children’s advocates are unsure the data produced will be worth the cost. Mary Powell, director of the Autism Society of Minnesota, would welcome some answers. In the past 15 years, she has seen an explosion in the number of Minnesota kids diagnosed with autism-related conditions, from about 100 children to nearly 3,000. Some of that growth reflects better diagnosis of autism, but she suspects something else is happening, too — with troubling consequences. The root cause of autism is “the nagging question forever for parents,” Powell said, “because they’re always saying, ‘If there’s something I could have done.’ That’s a very profound question in parents’ minds because they never get rid of the feeling that, somehow, the course of their children’s life could have been different.” For Gretchen Moen of Eagan, Minn., it’s asthma that has altered her family’s life. Her athletic son, Patrick, now 18, has asthma, and she vividly remembers the early struggles. “When you have a kid with a chronic illness, it affects everybody in the family,” she said. “He missed probably half of kindergarten, and half of first grade” because he was too sick to attend school. “He was the kind of kid who’d get a cold, and it would last him the entire winter.” Her son’s story does have a happy ending: with determination, medication and some allowances, Patrick has become a star athlete at St. Thomas Academy. But his mother remembers the worry, too. “There were many, many nights when you’d stay up all night listening to your child breathe, just to make sure he keeps breathing.” UNEXPLAINED INCREASE Despite much medical detective work, scientists still do not fully understand the soaring rates for childhood asthma, allergies, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and several other health conditions. Even childhood obesity, although better-understood, has elements that remain puzzling. “They’re all conditions that are pretty common in children, and are increasing,” Scheidt said, “and clearly there are multiple factors that are contributing to these conditions — genetic predisposition, behavior, environmental exposures, the way they’re managed.” Minnesota school districts large and small are struggling to meet the ever-rising demand for expensive services. Ann Hoxie has been a school nurse in the St. Paul public schools for 20 years. Like many frontline professionals, she’s seeing much more childhood asthma. In St. Paul, it afflicts at least 8 percent of the students. In Minneapolis, it’s 12 percent. “Last fall was a bad allergy season, and we had lots of kids having problems with asthma, and a fair number of 911 calls, just because we didn’t have the right meds for kids. We didn’t see nearly so much of that 20 years ago,” said Hoxie, the district’s administrator for student wellness. “We had a student die of asthma last year. Students don’t die at school! But we did have that happen.” The children’s study won’t focus only on those problems. It will examine many aspects of child development — including family structure, ethnicity, prenatal care and family income. The hoped-for answers run the gamut, too, with researchers craving insights into the causes of cerebral palsy, schizophrenia and other conditions. Still, the urgency is being driven by the unexplained spike in childhood conditions. Dr. Duane Alexander, director of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, last month told a Casey Journalism Center seminar that if only some answers emerge, the study’s cost will be more than covered. The study was authorized by Congress back in 2000, but the tough part will be finding the money in the federal budget. The real money crunch will come in a year, maybe two, Scheidt said, when hundreds of millions of dollars will be needed to start recruiting, then interviewing and tracking, 100,000 parents. UNCERTAIN OUTCOME Dr. Sheldon Berkowitz, medical director at Children’s Hospitals and Clinics in Minneapolis, notes that studies on this scale are unique and don’t always follow predictable lines, so he’s a bit wary about the talk of finding root causes. “The grand scale of it is what’s so overwhelming,” Berkowitz said of the study. “My guess is that, with a study like this, you’re going to have a whole lot of things falling out of this that you never really expected… and you may be disappointed on stuff that you hoped to get.” Berkowitz wondered if a smaller study might be adequate, noting, “I wonder if$2.7 billion is best spent in this way, when there’s all these immediate pressing needs for kids.” Scheidt explained that with 100,000 children, researchers will be able to examine large subgroups to compare and contrast. If the study pins down some hard-to-define problems, that may be useful, too. Thomas Dickhudt, superintendent of the Chisago Lakes school district, knows that more kids are being diagnosed with autism and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, but he wonders: Are there more sick kids, or just changes in how kids are diagnosed? “That’s the part I’m having trouble with,” he said. The U.S. Department of Education tracks soaring rates of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. A decade ago, 83,000 U.S. students were counted in a broad category that included the syndrome. Last year, that had increased nearly fivefold. Moen is active in the Minnesota Asthma Coalition, where each year she sees more and more children with asthma — reflecting better diagnosis, she says, but perhaps something more. She would welcome answers to fears that bedevil a million parents. “Are we doing something to our children, so to speak, that has caused this? I think that’s what everybody wants to know.”

Response:

Quacks scratching their heads Kids’ illnesses baffle researchers More children then ever are contracting asthma, autism and other maladies, prompting plans for a major study to find the causes BY TOM WEBB ST. PAUL PIONEER PRESS WASHINGTON – In ever-growing numbers, something seems to be poisoning America’s children. But what? Rates are soaring for diagnoses of childhood asthma, autism, allergies and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Scientists don’t fully understand what’s happening among this generation of children — but they’re worried by a mounting toll of sick kids and the growing costs to families, schools, taxpayers and society. In Minnesota, autism diagnoses have grown twentyfold in a generation, making a once-rare condition an unhappy fact of modern life. Now, the federal government hopes to unravel the mystery by launching the largest study of children in U.S. history. It’s called the National Children’s Study, a two-decade-long effort that would track 100,000 children from the womb into adulthood, examining their genetic makeup, environment, eating habits, home situations and health. The cost: $2.7 billion. “It’s big science. It’s the same order of magnitude as the human genome project,” said Dr. Peter Scheidt, director of the study’s program office, at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development. The study seeks to answer questions now raging within medical circles, among educators and in parent groups. Are these conditions caused by toxins? By genetics? Too much television? Bad diets? Home situations? Possibly some combination? It has many supporters, who cite the staggering cost in medical care and in the effect on families. They welcome the effort to systematically explore why this is happening. But in Washington, the competition for research money is always fierce, and even some children’s advocates are unsure the data produced will be worth the cost. Mary Powell, director of the Autism Society of Minnesota, would welcome some answers. In the past 15 years, she has seen an explosion in the number of Minnesota kids diagnosed with autism-related conditions, from about 100 children to nearly 3,000. Some of that growth reflects better diagnosis of autism, but she suspects something else is happening, too — with troubling consequences. The root cause of autism is “the nagging question forever for parents,” Powell said, “because they’re always saying, ‘If there’s something I could have done.’ That’s a very profound question in parents’ minds because they never get rid of the feeling that, somehow, the course of their children’s life could have been different.” For Gretchen Moen of Eagan, Minn., it’s asthma that has altered her family’s life. Her athletic son, Patrick, now 18, has asthma, and she vividly remembers the early struggles. “When you have a kid with a chronic illness, it affects everybody in the family,” she said. “He missed probably half of kindergarten, and half of first grade” because he was too sick to attend school. “He was the kind of kid who’d get a cold, and it would last him the entire winter.” Her son’s story does have a happy ending: with determination, medication and some allowances, Patrick has become a star athlete at St. Thomas Academy. But his mother remembers the worry, too. “There were many, many nights when you’d stay up all night listening to your child breathe, just to make sure he keeps breathing.” UNEXPLAINED INCREASE Despite much medical detective work, scientists still do not fully understand the soaring rates for childhood asthma, allergies, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and several other health conditions. Even childhood obesity, although better-understood, has elements that remain puzzling. “They’re all conditions that are pretty common in children, and are increasing,” Scheidt said, “and clearly there are multiple factors that are contributing to these conditions — genetic predisposition, behavior, environmental exposures, the way they’re managed.” Minnesota school districts large and small are struggling to meet the ever-rising demand for expensive services. Ann Hoxie has been a school nurse in the St. Paul public schools for 20 years. Like many frontline professionals, she’s seeing much more childhood asthma. In St. Paul, it afflicts at least 8 percent of the students. In Minneapolis, it’s 12 percent. “Last fall was a bad allergy season, and we had lots of kids having problems with asthma, and a fair number of 911 calls, just because we didn’t have the right meds for kids. We didn’t see nearly so much of that 20 years ago,” said Hoxie, the district’s administrator for student wellness. “We had a student die of asthma last year. Students don’t die at school! But we did have that happen.” The children’s study won’t focus only on those problems. It will examine many aspects of child development — including family structure, ethnicity, prenatal care and family income. The hoped-for answers run the gamut, too, with researchers craving insights into the causes of cerebral palsy, schizophrenia and other conditions. Still, the urgency is being driven by the unexplained spike in childhood conditions. Dr. Duane Alexander, director of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, last month told a Casey Journalism Center seminar that if only some answers emerge, the study’s cost will be more than covered. The study was authorized by Congress back in 2000, but the tough part will be finding the money in the federal budget. The real money crunch will come in a year, maybe two, Scheidt said, when hundreds of millions of dollars will be needed to start recruiting, then interviewing and tracking, 100,000 parents. UNCERTAIN OUTCOME Dr. Sheldon Berkowitz, medical director at Children’s Hospitals and Clinics in Minneapolis, notes that studies on this scale are unique and don’t always follow predictable lines, so he’s a bit wary about the talk of finding root causes. “The grand scale of it is what’s so overwhelming,” Berkowitz said of the study. “My guess is that, with a study like this, you’re going to have a whole lot of things falling out of this that you never really expected… and you may be disappointed on stuff that you hoped to get.” Berkowitz wondered if a smaller study might be adequate, noting, “I wonder if$2.7 billion is best spent in this way, when there’s all these immediate pressing needs for kids.” Scheidt explained that with 100,000 children, researchers will be able to examine large subgroups to compare and contrast. If the study pins down some hard-to-define problems, that may be useful, too. Thomas Dickhudt, superintendent of the Chisago Lakes school district, knows that more kids are being diagnosed with autism and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, but he wonders: Are there more sick kids, or just changes in how kids are diagnosed? “That’s the part I’m having trouble with,” he said. The U.S. Department of Education tracks soaring rates of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. A decade ago, 83,000 U.S. students were counted in a broad category that included the syndrome. Last year, that had increased nearly fivefold. Moen is active in the Minnesota Asthma Coalition, where each year she sees more and more children with asthma — reflecting better diagnosis, she says, but perhaps something more. She would welcome answers to fears that bedevil a million parents. “Are we doing something to our children, so to speak, that has caused this? I think that’s what everybody wants to know.”

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent. Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent. steve Yes, by the State. Not, of course, by the infants. The issue, to me, is did the state in so consenting, really have the best interests of those particular children in mind? I would suspect not; and I think that they should be required to defend the decision.

As I note in my post to Di, NIH has strict oversight for clinical trials in which vulnerable, special populations are being studied. This includes orphans, disabled people, prisoners, etc. The oversight is considered necessary precisely because one can conceive of situations where consent might not be truly informed. We’ve learned the hard way in medicine from such things (amongst many) as Tuskegee. Modern clinical trials are quite rigorous in getting informed consent, and NIH oversight is rigid and sometimes painful. I’m running two trials right now and have two more coming up. My colleagues in our research group do numerous clinical trials, some involving children (with asthma). Those trials have very stiff standards for informed consent. If there is an allegation that the state (in the case that started this whole discussion) erred in providing informed consent, by all means investigate it. But everything published so far says that what the state did, after scrutiny, was okay. steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent. Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent. Children cannot give informed consents. Which is why the parents of the child do so. Every pediatrician knows that. When the child is an orphan and is in foster care, the responsible agents of the state provide informed consent. In clinical trials, NIH demands tighter oversight of special populations (elderly, prisoners, ORPHANS, disabled people, etc) precisely because they’re seen as vulnerable. In such trials the process of informed consent is especially rigorous. You might actually try reading about this stuff prior to commenting on it. steve

Response:

And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent. Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent.

Children cannot give informed consents.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – steve

Response:

And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent. Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent. Children cannot give informed consents.  

Which is why the parents of the child do so. Every pediatrician knows that. When the child is an orphan and is in foster care, the responsible agents of the state provide informed consent. In clinical trials, NIH demands tighter oversight of special populations (elderly, prisoners, ORPHANS, disabled people, etc) precisely because they’re seen as vulnerable. In such trials the process of informed consent is especially rigorous. You might actually try reading about this stuff prior to commenting on it. steve

Response:

Linda asks: What in God’s name does NIH, a governmental organization which oversees medical research have to do with adoption?  Do tell, Laura, I’m dying to hear this.

Silly, silly, Linda. Of *course* the NIH is part of the Grand Secret Adoption Conspiracy!  I’ll let Laura tell you how. I seem to have misplaced my memo. P2P

Response:

And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent.

Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent. steve

Response:

Unfortunately,our government historically has done a poor job in this regard. Post-war research in the U.S. too often relied on unknowing test subjects, whether it involved military personnel stationed on the perimeter of atomic test sites, subjected to hallucinogenic drugs, or exposed to various other chemical and biological weapons, to name a few that come to mind. As a rule, I’d prefer to see captive test subjects as off limits. J.

Yes, I think I agree with that. The issue, as I see it, is that it is nearly impossible for an institution to value individual human life in the same way as the individual (or the parents of the individual) would do. And in some sense, I think that is necessary. Sometimes, society has to subordinate the rights of individuals to the greater good. But using orphan children is not, I think, one of them. As Steve points out, there are trials that have been performed on children whose parents have consented. That, to me, is fair. Performing the same trials on orphans whose guardian, the State, has consented, somehow squicks me. Rupa

Response:

And so much for the medical profession’s Nuremberg Code that prohibits human experimentation without informed consent. Except in the cited issue, there WAS informed consent. steve

Yes, by the State. Not, of course, by the infants. The issue, to me, is did the state in so consenting, really have the best interests of those particular children in mind? I would suspect not; and I think that they should be required to defend the decision. Rupa

Response:

They have been careful to avoid using children with living parents, who might sue their asses for pain and suffering, or negligence or malpractice.

Except, of course, that these trials were properly done, so there’s no pain, suffering or malpractice involved. Other than that, moo away. I’d suggest that is why they used orphaned children as test subjects. I believe they were fully aware that parents have a more profound and passionate interest in their children’s wellbeing than the state does. I also believe they realized that dead parents can’t sue.  Call me a cynic.

Cynic, no. Nutter, yes. What is the standard of medical care to which foster kids are entitled? If a child is HIV infected, is it not entitled to anti-retrovirals or whatever is considered standard care? In which case, why is it a relevant argument that these trials afforded them care they would not otherwise have received? Agreed.  And if it is a relevant argument, why were all parents not invited to volunteer their children for these trials?

Because 1) not all parents have children with HIV, and 2) the children were sick, such that a clinical trial was appropriate. I can certainly show you clinical trials involving children with HIV done in non-foster children, who were indeed recruited via their parents. That would blow your conspiracy theory all to hell, and I really hate to disappoint you like that. Powerful entities in the American child welfare bureaucracy routinely place children at risk.  Many don’t think carefully about it; they just do it.  It’s their livelihood that comes first, not our and our children’s lives.

Careful, the black helicopters will hear you. steve

Response:

The only real objection is the question of consent. Perhaps prisoners could be offered time off their sentences in return for taking part in these tests? (Of course, those who would be a danger to society if released early could not be used.)

Can’t do that. That’s an improper inducement to volunteer in a clinical trial, and isn’t allowed. Seriously. Being adults, they would be able to cooperate with the researchers in describing the effects they experience.

Sure, and that can be very helpful. The particular trials in question were done in children because the regimens to treat HIV in children are different (as it turns out, thanks in part to research like this) than those used to treat adults. steve

Response:

Laura said of the National Institutes of Health It’s not strict about overseeing the adoption experiment it promotes, or  objective or professional, either.

What in God’s name does NIH, a governmental organization which oversees medical research have to do with adoption?  Do tell, Laura, I’m dying to hear this.  And, I’m sure the biostatistician I’m married to would like to hear as well. Stop mistaking me for someone who gives a damn about your and others’ alleged "professional objectivity."  The proof is in the pudding.  It doesn’t take a college education or letters after one’s name to see that. Laura

As Steve said, stop breaking your pills in half, you need the full dosage. Talk to your shrink about some of the new major anti-psychotics. The proof is in the pudding, eh?  As has been said to Di in another thread, your notion of "proof" is not understood by anyone who has ever done real research. Is NIH perfect?  No.  But the controls they have in place are damn good.   NIH works as well as any human institution I know of. Linda

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Phase I trials are indeed to find out toxicity, but there is some expectation (hope) that they’ll work based on previous in vitro and animal-based experiments. With cancer drugs it’s a real hit-and-miss affair. With anti-HIV drugs and drug regimens there’s a more realistic chance of the child getting some benefit. I have no quarrel whatsoever with careful scrutiny of drug trials, the more so in children, and especially in orphans. From what I’ve seen, this is much ado about nothing — the responsible parties did everything right. It does look as though they have been reasonably careful. But I would suggest that when someone else — especially the State or other entity — is acting in loco parentis, it should be held to a higher standard of care than if the child’s own parent (whether b or a) is its guardian. It’s not too difficult to visualize a bureaucrat who has only a professional interest in the children authorizing such trials, without the careful consideration a truly interested party would use. What is the standard of medical care to which foster kids are entitled? If a child is HIV infected, is it not entitled to anti-retrovirals or whatever is considered standard care? In which case, why is it a relevant argument that these trials afforded them care they would not otherwise have received? While I buy your argument that human testing is essential for drugs, I have a problem with tests on any population where informed consent can be an issue: people who are intellectually challenged; people who are in an institutional setting as in the army or in prison; children who are not represented by individuals who can reasonably be supposed to care passionately about their best interests. I am not saying the tests are all wrong. I think they help the world. But I think the State (or any powerful entity) has to think carefully before placing at risk other human beings without their consent.

I think we’re in agreement. I certainly want people who are at a disadvantage (be it children in state care or any other disadvantaged population) to have an extra level of protection. The NIH agrees with that, by the way, and mandates such review whenever a clinical trial is to be done. I’ve filled out a few IRB forms in my day, and whenever one proposes to work with a special population, the scrutiny is much, much higher. steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — children were born with AIDS or born to HIV-infected mothers — each was an orphan (parents dead likely due to AIDS) — studies had oversight from an Institutional Review Board at Columbia — more oversight from the state — more oversight from NIH (NIH is VERY strict about this). Would you give your child an AIDS drug if it had never been tested? This is all true, Steve…but Phase I trials? Aren’t those for toxicity, rather than efficacy? It’s difficult to argue that the best interest of those particular children were served if they were being used in Phase I trials. One does have to wonder whether the state acted appropriately in loco parentis. Phase I trials are indeed to find out toxicity, but there is some expectation (hope) that they’ll work based on previous in vitro and animal-based experiments. With cancer drugs it’s a real hit-and-miss affair. With anti-HIV drugs and drug regimens there’s a more realistic chance of the child getting some benefit. I have no quarrel whatsoever with careful scrutiny of drug trials, the more so in children, and especially in orphans. From what I’ve seen, this is much ado about nothing — the responsible parties did everything right. It does look as though they have been reasonably careful. But I would suggest that when someone else — especially the State or other entity — is acting in loco parentis, it should be held to a higher standard of care than if the child’s own parent (whether b or a) is its guardian. It’s not too difficult to visualize a bureaucrat who has only a professional interest in the children authorizing such trials, without the careful consideration a truly interested party would use. What is the standard of medical care to which foster kids are entitled? If a child is HIV infected, is it not entitled to anti-retrovirals or whatever is considered standard care? In which case, why is it a relevant argument that these trials afforded them care they would not otherwise have received? While I buy your argument that human testing is essential for drugs, I have a problem with tests on any population where informed consent can be an issue: people who are intellectually challenged; people who are in an institutional setting as in the army or in prison; children who are not represented by individuals who can reasonably be supposed to care passionately about their best interests. I am not saying the tests are all wrong. I think they help the world. But I think the State (or any powerful entity) has to think carefully before placing at risk other human beings without their consent. Rupa

Unfortunately,our government historically has done a poor job in this regard. Post-war research in the U.S. too often relied on unknowing test subjects, whether it involved military personnel stationed on the perimeter of atomic test sites, subjected to hallucinogenic drugs, or exposed to various other chemical and biological weapons, to name a few that come to mind. As a rule, I’d prefer to see captive test subjects as off limits. J. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had thought that non consenual medical experimentation on children had been stopped at least in the civilized world –  I was wrong. I felt ill when I read this http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,73691185358,00.html http://tinyurl.com/393q8  UK firm tried HIV drug on orphans GlaxoSmithKline embroiled in scandal in which babies and children were allegedly used as ‘laboratory animals’ Antony Barnett in New York Sunday April 4, 2004 The Observer Orphans and babies as young as three months old have been used as guinea pigs in potentially dangerous medical experiments sponsored by pharmaceutical companies, an Observer investigation has revealed. British drug giant GlaxoSmithKline is embroiled in the scandal. The firm sponsored experiments on the children from Incarnation Children’s Centre, a New York care home that specialises in treating HIV sufferers and is run by Catholic charities. The children had either been infected with HIV or born to HIV-positive mothers. Their parents were dead, untraceable or deemed unfit to look after them. According to documents obtained by The Observer, Glaxo has sponsored at least four medical trials since 1995 using Hispanic and black children at Incarnation. The documents give details of all clinical trials in the US and reveal the experiments sponsored by Glaxo were designed to test the ’safety and tolerance’ of Aids medications, some of which have potentially dangerous side effects. Glaxo manufactures a number of drugs designed to treat HIV, including AZT. Normally trials on children would require parental consent but, as the infants are in care, New York’s authorities hold that role. The city health department has launched an investigation into claims that more than 100 children at Incarnation were used in 36 experiments – at least four co-sponsored by Glaxo. Some of these trials were designed to test the ‘toxicity’ of Aids medications. One involved giving children as young as four a high-dosage cocktail of seven drugs at one time. Another looked at the reaction in six-month-old babies to a double dose of measles vaccine. Most experiments were funded by federal agencies like the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Until now Glaxo’s role had not emerged. In 1997 an experiment co-sponsored by Glaxo used children from Incarnation to ‘obtain tolerance, safety and pharmacokinetic’ data for Herpes drugs. In a more recent experiment, the children were used to test AZT. A third experiment sponsored by Glaxo and US drug firm Pfizer investigated the ‘long-term safety’ of anti-bacterial drugs on three-month-old babies. The medical establishment has defended the trials arguing they enabled these children to obtain state-of-the-art therapy they would otherwise not have received for potentially fatal illnesses. However, health campaigners argue there is a difference between providing the latest drugs and experimentation. They claim many of the experiments were ‘phase 1 trials’ – among the most risky – and that HIV tests for babies were not a reliable indicator of actual infection and therefore toxic drugs could have been given to healthy infants. HIV drugs are similar to those used in chemotherapy and can have serious side-effects. Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, said the children had been treated like ‘laboratory animals’. ‘These are some of the most vulnerable individuals in the country and there appears to be a policy of giving drug firms access to them,’ she said. ‘Throughout the history of medical research we have seen prisoners abused, the mentally ill abused and now poor kids in a care home.’ Sharav has urged the US Food and Drug Administration to investigate and has demanded full disclosure of all adverse effects suffered by the children, including deaths. Brooklyn Democrat councillor Bill de Blasio is also demanding that New York’s Administration for Children’s Services, which approved the trials, reveal who gave consent and on what grounds. Glaxo has confirmed it provided funds for some of the experiments but denied any improper action. A spokeswoman said: ‘These studies were implemented by the US Aids Clinical Trial Group, a clinical research network paid for by the National Institutes of Health. Glaxo’s involvement in such studies would have been to provide study drugs or funding but we would have no interactions with the patients. ‘Generally speaking, clinical research is carefully regulated in the US and it would be the responsibility of the appropriate authorities to ensure all subjects in a clinical trial provided appropriate, informed consent to conform with all local laws and regulations regarding legal authority in the case of minors.’ The Incarnation trials were run by Columbia University Medical Centre doctors. Columbia spokeswoman Annie Bayne said there had been no clinical trials at Incarnation since 2000 and that consent for the children was provided by the Administration for Children’s Services, which uses a panel of doctors and lawyers to determine whether the benefits of a trial for each child outweighs the risks. ‘There are many safeguards in the system. HIV is eventually a fatal disease, but drug therapy has lengthened life significantly,’ said Bayne. A spokesman for Incarnation said: ‘The purpose of the trials was to test the efficacy of HIV medication … These trials were based on scientific evidence of their potential value in the treatment of HIV-infected children.’ Special reports Aids Medicine and health Special investigation February 2003: Saving Grace – why 30m people with Aids can’t get the drugs they need Full text UN Aids report, November 2002 UN report into Aids, July 2002 Useful links NHS Direct: HIV/Aids British HIV Association Eldis HIV/Aids guide National Aids Trust Terrence Higgins Trust Elton John Aids Foundation Children with Aids M

Question:

a troll? Nah .

ignore her, steve laurie is one of the reasons alt.support.anxiety-panic.moderated was formed. dr phil isnt my cup of tea but if he is yours, then you are entitled to say so

Response:

Hi Anony,  Thanks for the insight.I know about the fighting that use to go on etc in these groups. One hopes we just learn a little , from all this . For me its getting to a better understanding, not necessarily who is right,. Sometimes we have to be wrong to know what is right.:)  take care, Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – a troll? Nah . ignore her, steve laurie is one of the reasons alt.support.anxiety-panic.moderated was formed. dr phil isnt my cup of tea but if he is yours, then you are entitled to say so

Response:

a troll? Nah . Your taking your energy, your frustration and your projecting your dissatisfaction with that . Dr.Phil cuts to the chase in a world that is constantly changing . How can I be sure? (an old rascals song) . By the way I feel the pain your experiencing, please open up whats up. I have been thru the system. I have seen many people die alone , depressed and anxious. I could have been there or who knows might still happen.  Again he is only a talk show host, you are free to take from his show  whatever you want to, I just think you can get some good from it also if you realize the limitations. Too many people walk around saying I don’t know whats wrong and too many therapists don’t know what to do either One in four now have some kind of mental problem. One in ten children have asthma, One in four children in povery. Every 40 seconds there is a violent crime and you think I and Dr. Phil is the problem? I don’t, I think we tend to not want to deal with our problems headon. . Peace and Love.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-no-archive: yes Dr. Phil doesn’t need to be mentioned in every post you make and in replies you make to other’s seeking help.  In a way, I see it as a form of spam. Either that, or you’re a troll. If I am wrong, then I at least hope you realize that a lot of people find Dr. Phil to be an idiot who is making a fortune off of people’s problems. I for one wouldn’t give him my idea of the time of day.  He’d twist it around and find something wrong with my opinion. Frankly, Dr. Phil is a sad, pathetic person sucking the green out of even sadder, more pathetic people. JMO —  

Question:

hi susan, today i aint doing so good, nothing to do with UC that seems to be under control, just got an awful cough and sore throat, gotta be careful it doesnt turn into a chest infection ive heard as i am taking azathioprine. as for the UC, currently on 150mg azathioprine a day, and 12.5 mg of pred which i hope to lower to 10 soon. tried pentasa a couple of weeks ago but that made me sick straight away, looks like all ASA drugs are off for me. appeities getting better anyway, my uni housemates cant believe i am getting so excited about feeling hungry then eating something but its a novelty after the last 6 months. dont think i am quite in remission but all is pretty good. was so sorry to see you arent getting on too well, still, lets hope for some good news after your appointment

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Robert How are you doing?  UM MOM Susan ive been onit for about 8 months and thats a long time, 5mg isnt much though but pred is still meant to be short term Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Are you refering to Prednisolone or Prednisone though?

It’s two names for the same thing.  A couple of my children have asthma, and I always have the 5mg soluble tabs of Pred in the house.  Sometimes the packet says one name; sometimes t’other, but it’s always the same stuff inside. — Fran

Response:

My mum did ask my consultant about suspensions that I could take but they said there wernt any and they could only make tablets or granuals.

Sarah – I  had a quick word with Beth today, and hopefully she’ll drop you a line.  The main reason the suspensions aren’t usually given is that they’re far more expensive that way – but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.  Apparently the hospital wrote to the pharmacist explaining how one of the meds was to be made up, and it was done according to the ‘recipe’ in the shop as and when required.  Another was available as suspension, but because of the expense was only rarely offered.  Arianne was offered it because at the time she was only 3 1/2 yrs old.  If it can be done in S Wales it can surely be done in Northants… you’ll just have to persevere.  Beth’ll be able to give you full details as and when she gets back on line – she’s very busy at the moment helping a friend prepare for her wedding on Wednesday.   Beth’ll be doing the flowers and stuff tomorrow; she’s already done a lovely silk bouquet and a ring pillow and a garter for the bride to wear.  I won’t see her now until it’s all over, because Emily (2) would only be in the way if we were to drop in for a cuppa before then, and what I know about doing flowers can be written on the back of a postage stamp! — Fran

Response:

I would talk to my GI doctor about getting off Pred as soon as you can. Ask him about 6MP, much better for long term. I was on Pred 5mg every other day for 20 years and now have osteoporosis. best of luck, Fred, CD 40 years —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

i don’t know about the equivelents.  all i know is that they are essentially the same.  hi doses in the ranges i mention can cause damage rapidly, dosages in the 5mg range "normally" don’t cause such rapid damage. jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Are you refering to Prednisolone or Prednisone though?  The two have different dosaging I think so  a high level of prednisolone would only count as a low level of prednisone. it is only 5mg.  don’t alarm her needlessly.  big difference between 5 mg and something like 60, 80 or even 120 for a year. jeffy Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Remember her age.  5mg might be a lot for her esp for so long.  Check with your consultant about a different med.  There are a lot for children that can’t take pills. UMMOM Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i don’t know about the equivelents.  all i know is that they are essentially the same.  hi doses in the ranges i mention can cause damage rapidly, dosages in the 5mg range "normally" don’t cause such rapid damage. jeffy Are you refering to Prednisolone or Prednisone though?  The two have different dosaging I think so  a high level of prednisolone would only count as a low level of prednisone. it is only 5mg.  don’t alarm her needlessly.  big difference between 5 mg and something like 60, 80 or even 120 for a year. jeffy Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

excellent point, was not thinking of age. jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remember her age.  5mg might be a lot for her esp for so long.  Check with your consultant about a different med.  There are a lot for children that can’t take pills. UMMOM Susan i don’t know about the equivelents.  all i know is that they are essentially the same.  hi doses in the ranges i mention can cause damage rapidly, dosages in the 5mg range "normally" don’t cause such rapid damage. jeffy Are you refering to Prednisolone or Prednisone though?  The two have different dosaging I think so  a high level of prednisolone would only count as a low level of prednisone. it is only 5mg.  don’t alarm her needlessly.  big difference between 5 mg and something like 60, 80 or even 120 for a year. jeffy Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Hi Fran, I tried the prednisolone which you have to dissolve in water but I had a really bad reaction to that and they stopped it right away and put me onto the pred tablets. My mum did ask my consultant about suspensions that I could take but they said there wernt any and they could only make tablets or granuals. If you could get some details on Ariannes suspensions or anything that would be alot of help and I will inquire (again) with my consultant or pharmacy. I wouldnt mind the jam but last time i tried that I swallowed the jam and not the tablet because the tablet was heavier and so sank to the bottom of my mouth! One of these days you never know, it may just happen! Thanx Sarah

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Quite a few of them can come in liquid form!  I’ll check with Beth if you like – Arianne can’t take tablets at all (she’s only 6 now, remember) so all the meds she’s had have been made available for her in some form of suspension. Whether or not the good ol’ NHS would do that for an old lady like yourself (!) is another matter of course, but maybe your pharmacist could help?  Let’s see… Arianne’s had Azathioprine and Sulfasalazine, as well as the Pred, and I’m sure they both came as liquids.  How are you at swallowing a mouthful of jam or something similar?  Would you be able to ‘hide’ a tablet in a teaspoon of jam perhaps? — Fran

Response:

Are you refering to Prednisolone or Prednisone though?  The two have different dosaging I think so  a high level of prednisolone would only count as a low level of prednisone. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it is only 5mg.  don’t alarm her needlessly.  big difference between 5 mg and something like 60, 80 or even 120 for a year. jeffy Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Sarah- what about using applesauce to take the pills?? that worked for me.

Response:

ive been onit for about 8 months and thats a long time, 5mg isnt much though but pred is still meant to be short term

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Hi Robert How are you doing?  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ive been onit for about 8 months and thats a long time, 5mg isnt much though but pred is still meant to be short term Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

I have been on Pred. for 30 years off and on. As high as 60mg. and as low as 10-15mg. per day. Sure it is a major bad Med. but it is a necessary evil. Effect can be worst then the illness, many things will break down in the long run. I have had many things happen due to the Pred. but I survive. They work differently on each of us. I can tell you horror stories and the there is me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Applesauce? I’ll give it a go, thanks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sarah- what about using applesauce to take the pills?? that worked for me.

Response:

Sarah – There are also some enemas and suppositories available that can work very well for UC, depending on how much of your colon is affected.  Don’t know about there, but in the States the enemas are Rowasa and Hydrocortisone and the suppositories are also HC and Canasa. I know they both sound gross, but they really are not that bad.  Worth perhaps checking with your consultant on.  HTH Christine CD 03/UC 01

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Norman, Yeah, im from Northamptonshire but I go to my local hospital in Kettering (NHS). My consultant there is Dr A Steel, he is a nice person but I was just concerned weather he actually realises the long term effects of prednisolone. He is listed as a general medicine specialist with intrest into gastroenterology. There are no proper gastroenterology specialists at my hospital either. Yes, I have heard about the special coating on the tablets so they act in the right part of the intestines but I really cannot swallow tablets no matter how much I try! That is probably the reason the mesalazine isnt working for me! Sarah Hi Sarah, From what I remember you’re in Northhants (you may remember that i’m in Cambs), se we could noth see the same GI. Mine’s a certain R.J Dickenson who’s based at the Hitchingbrooke at Huntingdon. From what experince I have of him he’s excellent, well he got me of pred a.s.a.p and onto Asacol which has been good also. As a slight aside, this _may_ be because i get treated under BUPA (and see Dr Dickenson at the Lea in Cambridge), which I get mambership to as part of my job, Are you NHS or private? It’s that at some point i’m probably going to have to be maintained on the NHS rather than rely on employment related rovate care, and i’m curious as to how it works. (The same question goes out to any other Brits reading this.) Oh, and i’m sure that you’re hard this before but (most) UC tablets are designed to deliver the active in the colon, soooooooo if you really could get used to swallowing them whole then it would help your treatment. Norman Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Hi Norman, Yeah, im from Northamptonshire but I go to my local hospital in Kettering (NHS). My consultant there is Dr A Steel, he is a nice person but I was just concerned weather he actually realises the long term effects of prednisolone. He is listed as a general medicine specialist with intrest into gastroenterology. There are no proper gastroenterology specialists at my hospital either. Yes, I have heard about the special coating on the tablets so they act in the right part of the intestines but I really cannot swallow tablets no matter how much I try! That is probably the reason the mesalazine isnt working for me! Sarah

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sarah, From what I remember you’re in Northhants (you may remember that i’m in Cambs), se we could noth see the same GI. Mine’s a certain R.J Dickenson who’s based at the Hitchingbrooke at Huntingdon. From what experince I have of him he’s excellent, well he got me of pred a.s.a.p and onto Asacol which has been good also. As a slight aside, this _may_ be because i get treated under BUPA (and see Dr Dickenson at the Lea in Cambridge), which I get mambership to as part of my job, Are you NHS or private? It’s that at some point i’m probably going to have to be maintained on the NHS rather than rely on employment related rovate care, and i’m curious as to how it works. (The same question goes out to any other Brits reading this.) Oh, and i’m sure that you’re hard this before but (most) UC tablets are designed to deliver the active in the colon, soooooooo if you really could get used to swallowing them whole then it would help your treatment. Norman Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

it is only 5mg.  don’t alarm her needlessly.  big difference between 5 mg and something like 60, 80 or even 120 for a year. jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

i don’ think you are critical with the pred at this point.  5mg is quite low, but eventially you need to come off it.  how would you like to be on 80 to 120 mg,day for a year?  now that would make a difference.  still, i would be taking a calcium supplement. jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form.

Quite a few of them can come in liquid form!  I’ll check with Beth if you like – Arianne can’t take tablets at all (she’s only 6 now, remember) so all the meds she’s had have been made available for her in some form of suspension.   Whether or not the good ol’ NHS would do that for an old lady like yourself (!) is another matter of course, but maybe your pharmacist could help?  Let’s see… Arianne’s had Azathioprine and Sulfasalazine, as well as the Pred, and I’m sure they both came as liquids.  How are you at swallowing a mouthful of jam or something similar?  Would you be able to ‘hide’ a tablet in a teaspoon of jam perhaps? — Fran

Response:

Doh ! I should read better, you have tried Mesalazine. Sorry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Sarah, From what I remember you’re in Northhants (you may remember that i’m in Cambs), se we could noth see the same GI. Mine’s a certain R.J Dickenson who’s based at the Hitchingbrooke at Huntingdon. From what experince I have of him he’s excellent, well he got me of pred a.s.a.p and onto Asacol which has been good also. As a slight aside, this _may_ be because i get treated under BUPA (and see Dr Dickenson at the Lea in Cambridge), which I get mambership to as part of my job, Are you NHS or private? It’s that at some point i’m probably going to have to be maintained on the NHS rather than rely on employment related rovate care, and i’m curious as to how it works. (The same question goes out to any other Brits reading this.) Oh, and i’m sure that you’re hard this before but (most) UC tablets are designed to deliver the active in the colon, soooooooo if you really could get used to swallowing them whole then it would help your treatment. Norman Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Hi Sarah, From what I remember you’re in Northhants (you may remember that i’m in Cambs), se we could noth see the same GI. Mine’s a certain R.J Dickenson who’s based at the Hitchingbrooke at Huntingdon. From what experince I have of him he’s excellent, well he got me of pred a.s.a.p and onto Asacol which has been good also. As a slight aside, this _may_ be because i get treated under BUPA (and see Dr Dickenson at the Lea in Cambridge), which I get mambership to as part of my job, Are you NHS or private? It’s that at some point i’m probably going to have to be maintained on the NHS rather than rely on employment related rovate care, and i’m curious as to how it works. (The same question goes out to any other Brits reading this.) Oh, and i’m sure that you’re hard this before but (most) UC tablets are designed to deliver the active in the colon, soooooooo if you really could get used to swallowing them whole then it would help your treatment. Norman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

I don’t know either;  Sorry but get yourself off the pred as soon as possible.   Maybe someone else has an idea. Going to sleep now.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form. Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Thats what I thought! My consultant hasnt tried me on any other drugs except Mesalazine and that isnt working too well and I think hes hesitant to try anything else because of my age (thats what he said once, anyway!). I cant swallow tablets either (mum has to crush them for me!) which kinda limits my options somewhat. Not really sure what else they could try as they tell me that none of the meds come in liquid form.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Sarah the simple answer is yes way too long.  Talk to your consultant about checking you bones. UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Ok, so when I was first diagnosed as having UC in the summer of 2001 my consultant put me on something like 20mg daily of Prednisolone. I have since reduced that down to 5mg daily but Im concerned about how long it should be taken for. From what I’ve read or heard, most people only use it for a short time but I have been on prednisolone for about one and a half years now, so what I want to know is is it ok to take it for this long especially since i am only 15yrs old? I have so far suffered no ill effects of this drug and I am also taking 1200mg of mesalazine daily (which for me doesnt seem to be working!). Im still in a bit of a flare but nothing too bad yet and the only thing that has helped so far is the prednisolone. Sarah

Response:

Question:

Becca,   What is Purell?. S’nd I

Response:

<<Becca,

Question:

Some people say that manure is good for rhubarb…. …. I prefer ice-cream! Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would be disingenuous of me to pretend that the comments I am about to make are without a small degree of scepticism regarding the reasons why some of these products ever saw the light of (marketing) day, so: Grape seed "anything" made from what is left after grape seed oil is extracted from the waste from wine making. Marine Pine bark "anything" from what’s left after making marine pine planks, the fact its French adds a nice marketing touch though. Apricot pit anything, from the waste from apricot processing for the food industry – anyone for vitamin B17? Get my drift? Good point.  Waste-product marketing thrives.

Response:

It would be disingenuous of me to pretend that the comments I am about to make are without a small degree of scepticism regarding the reasons why some of these products ever saw the light of (marketing) day, so: Grape seed "anything" made from what is left after grape seed oil is extracted from the waste from wine making. Marine Pine bark "anything" from what’s left after making marine pine planks, the fact its French adds a nice marketing touch though. Apricot pit anything, from the waste from apricot processing for the food industry – anyone for vitamin B17? Get my drift? That said: I must admit to having a cupboard containing my own fair share of (sensible) vitamins and dietary supplements. Pete

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feel compelled to mention the antioxidants I personally use.  From grape seed and marine pine bark.  From France. Claims to be twenty times as strong as vitamin E.  Dr Bob if you know about this I wold appreciate your input. Jack, Grape seed extract is a source of antioxidants known as proanthocyanadins. Proanthocyanadins are also found in marine pine bark extract and is most commonly marketed as a product named Pycnogenol . However, many nutritionally oriented health care practitioners prefer grape seed extract because it contains a broader spectrum and greater concentration of proanthocyanadins than marine pine bark extract. Because of the greater awareness of grape seed extract, many are now combining grape seed extract with marine pine bark extract.  I suspect this is a similar preparation to what you have from France. Personally, I am not a big fan of high dose herbals, but that’s just me.  As far as these antioxidants being 20 times more potent than vitamin E, I do not know.  The supplements I use have low doses of these in them, in addition to a broad spectrum of both vitamins and minerals. My advice is to let your doctor know what you are taking, and it would be prudent to do a search on possible side effects from using these herbal preparations with any meds you are currently taking. And of course, there is also the very important question to ask yourself, "How do I feel?"  My personal belief is that we are always managing our health, and our nutritional requirements change as we get older.  We tend to absorb less of our nutrients over time, therefore it is considered prudent to take at least a full-spectrum vitamin/mineral supplement. As for antioxidants, due to ever-increasing oxidants in our environment, it’s definitely prudent to consider them in one’s diet, both through eating fresh, wholesome foods and supplementation. I might add one more thought, that there is no substitute for good quality, fresh food.  One cannot eat junk food and expect to be healthy by taking supplements in an attempt to compensate for a lousy diet.  This isn’t exactly germane to your question about pycnoginol vs. vitamin E, but just realize there is no magic bullet, as many here have mentioned.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It would be disingenuous of me to pretend that the comments I am about to make are without a small degree of scepticism regarding the reasons why some of these products ever saw the light of (marketing) day, so: Grape seed "anything" made from what is left after grape seed oil is extracted from the waste from wine making. Marine Pine bark "anything" from what’s left after making marine pine planks, the fact its French adds a nice marketing touch though. Apricot pit anything, from the waste from apricot processing for the food industry – anyone for vitamin B17? Get my drift?

Good point.  Waste-product marketing thrives.

Response:

I’m tellin’ ya, they’re good for you. Antioxidant Supplementation and Lung Functions Among Children With Asthma Exposed to High Levels of Air Pollutants Romieu I, Sienra-Monge JJ, Ramirez-Aguilar M, et al. American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. 2002;166(5):703-709 Introduction Exposure to air pollution, specifically oxidants, has been linked to increases in the prevalence and severity of asthma.[1] Studies have shown that utilization of antioxidants may have a protective effect against the impact of pollution.[2,3] This study of children in Mexico City evaluated whether daily dietary supplements with antioxidants would modulate the impact of pollution on their pulmonary function results. Methods A randomized, double-blinded study of 158 children with asthma was conducted to determine whether antioxidant vitamin supplementation would alter the effects of ozone, nitrogen dioxide, and particulates with mass median diameters less than 10 microns on lung function. The children were randomized into either a control group receiving placebo or a vitamin group receiving daily oral supplements of 50 mg/day of vitamin E and 250 mg/day of vitamin C for 12 weeks. Parents provided initial demographic data and daily journals throughout the study period. The journals addressed dietary intake, twice-daily peak flow measurements, and symptoms. Pulmonary function studies were conducted twice a week during the study period. Blood samples were collected at baseline, 6 weeks, and 12 weeks. Results Mean average pollution levels measured during the study were 1-hour maximum ozone level (102 ppb, SD = 47]) and PM10 level (56.7 mcg/m3, SD = 27.4). For both groups, the baseline plasma alpha-tocopherol levels were similar. The levels were significantly higher in the supplement group (n = 80; mean age, 8.6 years) at the 6-week and 12-week follow-up. The placebo group (n = 78; mean age, 8.9) showed no significant change from baseline over the 12-week period. Significant differences in lung function decrements between the two groups for forced expiratory flow FEF25-75 and peak expiratory flow (PEF) were noted. They specifically noted that, on days after high PM10 levels, the decrements in FEF25-75 and forced expiratory volume in 1 second (FEV1) in the placebo group were larger. A subgroup of children with moderate and severe asthma in the placebo group demonstrated an inverse association between ozone and FEF25-75 (-13.32 mL/sec per 10 ppb; P = .000), FEV1 (-4.59 mL/10 ppb; P = .036), and also PEF (-15.01 mL/sec per 10 ppb; P = .04). The association was not noted in a similar subgroup of children receiving the supplement. Conclusion Based on these data, the researchers concluded that supplementation with vitamins E and C may provide some protection to the impact of ozone exposure on the small airways of children with moderate to severe asthma. They noted that ozone levels seemed to be significantly related to alterations in FEF25-75. However, they cautioned that the limited size of their study does not provide data about the optimum dosing of these supplements or their complete impact on airway function. References Committee of the environmental and occupational health assembly of the American Thoracic Society. Health effects of outdoor air pollution. Am J Respir Crit Care Med. 1996;153:3-50. Pryor WA. Can vitamin E protect humans against the pathological effects of ozone in smog? Am J Clin Nutr. 1991;53:702-722. Chatham MD, Eppler JH Jr, Saunder LR, Green D, Kulle TJ. Evaluation of the effects of vitamin C on ozone-induced bronchoconstriction in normal subjects. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1987;498:269-279.

Response:

I’m tellin’ ya, they’re good for you.

Apologies.  This study used vitamins E and C, not A.

Response:

Feel compelled to mention the antioxidants I personally use.  From grape seed and marine pine bark.  From France. Claims to be twenty times as strong as vitamin E.  Dr Bob if you know about this I wold appreciate your input.    

Response:

Feel compelled to mention the antioxidants I personally use.  From grape seed and marine pine bark.  From France. Claims to be twenty times as strong as vitamin E.  Dr Bob if you know about this I wold appreciate your input.    

Jack, Grape seed extract is a source of antioxidants known as proanthocyanadins. Proanthocyanadins are also found in marine pine bark extract and is most commonly marketed as a product named Pycnogenol . However, many nutritionally oriented health care practitioners prefer grape seed extract because it contains a broader spectrum and greater concentration of proanthocyanadins than marine pine bark extract. Because of the greater awareness of grape seed extract, many are now combining grape seed extract with marine pine bark extract.  I suspect this is a similar preparation to what you have from France. Personally, I am not a big fan of high dose herbals, but that’s just me.  As far as these antioxidants being 20 times more potent than vitamin E, I do not know.  The supplements I use have low doses of these in them, in addition to a broad spectrum of both vitamins and minerals. My advice is to let your doctor know what you are taking, and it would be prudent to do a search on possible side effects from using these herbal preparations with any meds you are currently taking. And of course, there is also the very important question to ask yourself, "How do I feel?"  My personal belief is that we are always managing our health, and our nutritional requirements change as we get older.  We tend to absorb less of our nutrients over time, therefore it is considered prudent to take at least a full-spectrum vitamin/mineral supplement. As for antioxidants, due to ever-increasing oxidants in our environment, it’s definitely prudent to consider them in one’s diet, both through eating fresh, wholesome foods and supplementation. I might add one more thought, that there is no substitute for good quality, fresh food.  One cannot eat junk food and expect to be healthy by taking supplements in an attempt to compensate for a lousy diet.  This isn’t exactly germane to your question about pycnoginol vs. vitamin E, but just realize there is no magic bullet, as many here have mentioned.

Response:

Question:

 doctor and in the treatment is as important as ever. Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum, eh?  Art alone obviously didn’t work dependably enough to forestall the development of modern medicine.  Even the most avid belief is incapable of overcoming the stark reality of physical laws.  Legions have gone to their graves with a "faith in the shaman (you seem to prefer this embodiment, although you use the term ‘doctor’), when an antibiotic would have kept them alive.  You invest much too "meta" in metaphysical.  Does the chiropractic faith require it?

Cogito ergo sum?    L.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  doctor and in the treatment is as important as ever. Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum, eh?  Art alone obviously didn’t work dependably enough to forestall the development of modern medicine.  Even the most avid belief is incapable of overcoming the stark reality of physical laws.  Legions have gone to their graves with a "faith in the shaman (you seem to prefer this embodiment, although you use the term ‘doctor’), when an antibiotic would have kept them alive.  You invest much too "meta" in metaphysical.  Does the chiropractic faith require it? Cogito ergo sum?    L.

My variation on it:  "I think I think, therefore I think I am".  I am just echoing the added level of ambiguity that Bob seems to savor.

Response:

Let us not forget that health care is an art, as well as a science. Sometimes that fact seems to get lost in the shuffle of trying to determine what is best for the patient. Science first, art second. We had too many dismal centuries when art was all that we could offer. Something strange about that though; sometimes art alone worked.  Or more accurately, the patient believed that it worked.  Now Descartes comes before the horse (math and science before art) but faith in the doctor and in the treatment is as important as ever.

Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum, eh?  Art alone obviously didn’t work dependably enough to forestall the development of modern medicine.  Even the most avid belief is incapable of overcoming the stark reality of physical laws.  Legions have gone to their graves with a "faith in the shaman (you seem to prefer this embodiment, although you use the term ‘doctor’), when an antibiotic would have kept them alive.  You invest much too "meta" in metaphysical.  Does the chiropractic faith require it?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let us not forget that health care is an art, as well as a science. Sometimes that fact seems to get lost in the shuffle of trying to determine what is best for the patient. Science first, art second. We had too many dismal centuries when art was all that we could offer. Something strange about that though; sometimes art alone worked.  Or more accurately, the patient believed that it worked.  Now Descartes comes before the horse (math and science before art) but faith in the doctor and in the treatment is as important as ever. What a relief that the posting wasn’t for lima beans–I actually like blueberries. You must not be much of a Fava bean fan then.  Are you of mediterranean descent?  Many of those folks are allergic to them.

Not an allergy, if you please, but a reaction to the fava been due to an enzymatic deficiency. I don’t really know that very many are allergic to the bean.     Larry

Response:

The older I get the less objective it all seems. There is a ringing endorsement for intellectual relativism.  Why bother going into a scientific field?  Why not just find something that involves incense or tarot cards?  Or have you? I knew that would get a rise out of you.  Just my way of saying "Good morning Allan"… Let us not forget that health care is an art, as well as a science. Sometimes that fact seems to get lost in the shuffle of trying to determine what is best for the patient.

Science first, art second. We had too many dismal centuries when art was all that we could offer. In the case of blueberries and antioxidant content, my objective was objective; and that was to simply post an interesting reference.

What a relief that the posting wasn’t for lima beans–I actually like blueberries. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Let us not forget that health care is an art, as well as a science. Sometimes that fact seems to get lost in the shuffle of trying to determine what is best for the patient. Science first, art second. We had too many dismal centuries when art was all that we could offer.

Something strange about that though; sometimes art alone worked.  Or more accurately, the patient believed that it worked.  Now Descartes comes before the horse (math and science before art) but faith in the doctor and in the treatment is as important as ever. What a relief that the posting wasn’t for lima beans–I actually like blueberries.

You must not be much of a Fava bean fan then.  Are you of mediterranean descent?  Many of those folks are allergic to them.   http://www.efn.org/~rossr/cont.html

Response:

The older I get the less objective it all seems. There is a ringing endorsement for intellectual relativism.  Why bother going into a scientific field?  Why not just find something that involves incense or tarot cards?  Or have you?

I knew that would get a rise out of you.  Just my way of saying "Good morning Allan"… Let us not forget that health care is an art, as well as a science. Sometimes that fact seems to get lost in the shuffle of trying to determine what is best for the patient. In the case of blueberries and antioxidant content, my objective was objective; and that was to simply post an interesting reference.

Response:

I thought this might be of interest too.  UM MOM Susan Vitamins C, E protect lungs from ozone pollution By Charnicia E. Huggins NEW YORK (Reuters Health) – A diet rich in the antioxidant vitamins C and E may protect the lungs of asthmatic children from the effects of ozone pollution, recent study findings suggest. "Diet appears to be an important cofactor in the respiratory health of children," lead study author Dr. Isabelle Romieu of the National Institute of Public Health in Mexico told Reuters Health. Her study was conducted to determine if antioxidant supplements could protect asthmatic children from air pollution in the metropolitan area of Mexico City. Previous studies have indicated that children in the area have experienced deterioration in their lung function and increased respiratory problems. The 158 children involved in the study were randomly divided into one of two groups that received a daily supplement of either vitamins or inactive placebo pills. They were then followed from October 1998 to April 2000. Overall, the children studied reported getting the recommended daily amount of vitamin C in their diets, but not nearly enough vitamin E. The investigators found that the vitamin supplements protected the study group from the decreases in forced expiratory flow, the amount of air dispelled from the lungs during a certain time period, and peak expiratory volume, a measure of airway resistance, that were seen among those who received placebo pills. Their findings are reported in the September 1st issue of the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. Although the study group included children with mild, moderate and severe asthma, the effect of the vitamin supplements was mostly seen among those with moderate and severe asthma, the report indicates. "This may suggest that children with more advanced asthma are more susceptible to the impact of ozone exposure because of a decrease in antioxidant defenses in the lung," the researchers speculate. In conclusion, "our data suggest that vitamin C and vitamin E supplementation above the minimum dietary requirement in children with asthma with low intake of vitamin E provides some protection against the acute effects of ozone on their lungs," the researchers write. Therefore, "children with heavy exposure to air pollutants need a higher intake of these vitamins to protect their lungs and therefore should have a diet rich in vitamin C and vitamin E," including citrus fruits and green vegetables, Romieu said. Copyright

Question:

– Ozone is like water…we need it to live! We need O2, not O3. Wrong, we need O3 to oxidize the trash and bacteria that people have put into the air and water! Without it this would become a lifeless planet.

Ozone is part of the air you breathe every day, should we stop that also? No.  Ozone is a pollutant.  Ozone is one of those things that is ‘trash.’

The references below indicate a combination of contaminants creating an irritating pollutant! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Would you like to produce some PROOF OF YOUR COMMENT? I think you will find it impossible to produce evidence even from the EPA or the ALA or the FTC…there is NOT ONE SINGLE DOCUMENT that you can produce that proves that ozone is harmful! Environ Health Perspect 2001 Dec;109(12):1215-26 Assessing the public health benefits of reduced ozone concentrations. Levy JI, Carrothers TJ, Tuomisto JT, Hammitt JK, Evans JS. Environ Health Perspect 1995 Mar;103 Suppl 2:103-5 Effect of ozone on respiratory responses in subjects with asthma. Koenig JQ. Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol 2001 Dec;87(6 Suppl 3):12-7 Air pollution in asthma: effect of pollutants on airway inflammation. Peden DB. Clin Exp Allergy 2001 Aug;31(8):1213-9 Ambient ozone exposure is associated with eosinophil activation in healthy children. Frischer T, Studnicka M, Halmerbauer G, Horak F Jr, Gartner C, Tauber E, Koller DY. J Allergy Clin Immunol 2001 Feb;107(2):287-94 Effect of ozone and nitrogen dioxide on the release of proinflammatory mediators from bronchial epithelial cells of nonatopic nonasthmatic subjects and atopic asthmatic patients in vitro. Bayram H, Sapsford RJ, Abdelaziz MM, Khair OA. Allergy 2000 Dec;55(12):1163-9 Prevalence of asthma and rhinitis in relation to long-term exposure to gaseous air pollutants. Ramadour M, Burel C, Lanteaume A, Vervloet D, Charpin D, Brisse F, Dutau H, Charpin D. Am J Respir Crit Care Med 2000 Nov;162(5):1838-45 The effect of ozone on inner-city children with asthma: identification of susceptible subgroups. Mortimer KM, Tager IB, Dockery DW, Neas LM, Redline S. You would probably be surprized to know that much of the documentation that is published by the American Lung Association is FUNDED BY HONEYWELL! Does this strike you as having an agenda? Yes I would be surprised.  I would be even more surprised if you were able to back up this wild claim with verifiable source documents. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

Response:

Thank you for realizing ozone’s natural place in our air. The problem is that for many residences and businesses we have created an air tight situation.  I agree that we do not need a lot of ozone, in fact it doesn’t take huge amounts to clear the air. As to their usage, the need for air purification is being addressed more clearly every day. You will see more of these units in operation with time. Four million units from our perspective is merely a tip of the iceburg.  The more we spend our time indoors, the greater the need. Donna     I’m not going to take issue with you, but ozone is naturally generated by our planet and is replenished naturally. We don’t really need to have ozone generators unless we live in an air tight bubble. With ozone, a little is good, more is not necessarily better.     FWIW, I ma very familiar with electrostatic precipitators, air scrubbers, and other electronic devices. I haven’t seen too many actually being used in a residential environment unless it was in a large apartment building, or retirement home where air quality was an issue.

For the record the following is not written by fadps – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, there’s some great news to tell every major medical group that has been subjecting this matter to rigorous testing for years and has determined that ozone is harmful to lungs–especially those with resipatory disorders. Why do you think there are ‘ozone alerts’? Have you really been informed? Or don’t you realize that OTHER CONTAMINANTS are present in the air…Ususally from car exausts and industrial pollution. DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH  the ALERT? Ozone is like water…we need it to live! We need O2, not O3. Wrong, we need O3 to oxidize the trash and bacteria that people have put into the air and water! Without it this would become a lifeless planet. OH, by the way did you know that NEVER  HAS ANYONE been maimed, harmed or killed by too much OZONE! POLLUTION YES! Ozone No. You are either a very uninformed person, or have a sales agenda. Since you can’t tolerate ignorant talk, you should not subject us to it, and educate yourself.  Try looking at the American Lung Association website as well as the FTC website. Would you like to produce some PROOF OF YOUR COMMENT? I think you will find it impossible to produce evidence even from the EPA or the ALA or the FTC…there is NOT ONE SINGLE DOCUMENT that you can produce that proves that ozone is harmful! You would probably be surprized to know that much of the documentation that is published by the American Lung Association is FUNDED BY HONEYWELL! Does this strike you as having an agenda? No sales pitch from me…I’m breathing clean air…you are just HOT AIR! ps. We do not market ozone generators for residential use. — Cry havoc! and let loose the dogs of war….. — William Shakespeare

Response:

Bob, For me they are both taking something out of context. In a certain setting it may be useful. Ozone may be the useful "flavoring agent" of healthy sea air. But this does not mean that is a good thing to add it to room air using an ionzer. Where is the logic?

This is the "more is better" issue.  Personally, I’ve lived on the coast for most of my life, because of my allergies.  I found the ocean air to be exceptionally clean, at least where I lived.  The cleanliness of the air is what attracted me, not the ozone "flavoring."   Because ozone is such a powerful oxidizer and free radical former, it seems prudent to use filtration devices to clean the air, given the technology that we currently have available.  I’m not a big free radical fan myself.   I’m firmly convinced of the benefit of exercises for the back, like club swinging as in Persia and formerly in India. There are pitfalls of course and the whole thing has to be started up gently. Manipulations of the spine may give the same sort of feeling, just as ozone in a living room might remind someone of healthy sea air. The healthy feeling in the back can be produced without the exercise, but this is more a trick. (:-(

If by a "trick," you mean it is difficult to accomplish without excercise, I agree.   Maybe chiropractic leads to interesting therapeutic relationships between the practitioner and the client like in psychotherapy. But for me exercise which strengthens and coordinates the back (or other) muscles is best for health. From what I know of chiropractic there is too much dependence and too much faith. If you are in business, you’ve got to deliver, as somebody once said.  Regards, Richard.

There are a range of therapeutic relationships that exist between doctor and patient.  It depends alot on the doctor, as to how patients will respond to him/her.  For example, in my office, my focus is on education.  I want to teach my patient how to better take care of himself/herself, to avoid excess treatment, of all types. Therefore, the atmosphere in my office is engaging, fun and upbeat. People are there to get better, and to learn how to continue feeling better.  I count my work successful if they respond well, are functioning well, and are happy with my care. Teaching postural biomechanics, or more efficient ways to do things, helps to reduce the need for care.  Being an athlete for over 40 years has taught me that excercise, like you mention, is exceedingly important and each person should find their own level of activity that provides the most benefit to them. Chiropractic care does not replace exercise.  If someone is going to get dependent on something, let it be exercise.   Dependence and faith are vague terms, but a healthy doctor/patient relationship does involve two things; trust and results.  And yes, you are correct.  "If you are in business, you’ve got to deliver." Bob

Response:

The same sort of objection would seem to apply to chiropractic. A healthy back does give a sense of well being and this is sort of instinct, but the arguments for manipulations seem to be in the same class as those in favor of ozone "treatment" Richard, I find your association with ozone and chiropractic a bit vague.  Would you be so kind as to elaborate a bit, and just know that I am a chiropractor of 20 years. Bob

Bob, For me they are both taking something out of context. In a certain setting it may be useful. Ozone may be the useful "flavoring agent" of healthy sea air. But this does not mean that is a good thing to add it to room air using an ionzer. Where is the logic? I’m firmly convinced of the benefit of exercises for the back, like club swinging as in Persia and formerly in India. There are pitfalls of course and the whole thing has to be started up gently. Manipulations of the spine may give the same sort of feeling, just as ozone in a living room might remind someone of healthy sea air. The healthy feeling in the back can be produced without the exercise, but this is more a trick. (:-( Maybe chiropractic leads to interesting therapeutic relationships between the practitioner and the client like in psychotherapy. But for me exercise which strengthens and coordinates the back (or other) muscles is best for health. From what I know of chiropractic there is too much dependence and too much faith. If you are in business, you’ve got to deliver, as somebody once said.  Regards, Richard.

Response:

The same sort of objection would seem to apply to chiropractic. A healthy back does give a sense of well being and this is sort of instinct, but the arguments for manipulations seem to be in the same class as those in favor of ozone "treatment"

Richard, I find your association with ozone and chiropractic a bit vague.  Would you be so kind as to elaborate a bit, and just know that I am a chiropractor of 20 years. Bob

Response:

Ozone is like water…we need it to live! It kills bacteria, mold, fungus, oxidizes contaminants etc. Don’t you know that good clean outside air, especially at the beech and in the mountains where people flock for their vactions contains the highest levels of ozone?

This looks like an attempt to debunk one of the principles of scientific medicine and a return to "signatures" or symbolism.  In the past infusions of plants which grew with holes in their leaves were recommended for gunshot wounds. Infusions for nervous  troubles had to be tree creepers owing the similarity of the stalks with nerves in the body. The so-called "signature" of the plant ruled the choice, not the observed effects. Use of ozone would not be a logical return to nature because the knowledge about ozone is theory and not part of the common sense you are born with. The same sort of objection would seem to apply to chiropractic. A healthy back does give a sense of well being and this is sort of instinct, but the arguments for manipulations seem to be in the same class as those in favor of ozone "treatment". A bracing sea breeze may be a good thing and the smell it has may be due to ozone, but this is no argument for indulging in doses of ozone in different concentrations. In any case the ozone in sea air may be just a signal and not something beneficial in itself. Regards, Richard Friedel

Response:

The EPA says that VOCs and NOx are pollutants and should be eliminated or controlled. Ozone is nature’s way of trying to oxidize and eliminate these deadly contaminants.

The EPA says that ozone is a pollutant. The bottom line is our equipment is registered with the EPA!

References? This equipment has been granted GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) status by the US GOVT.

References? You have made a lot of claims – can you provide some source materials? — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

Response:

The EPA says that VOCs and NOx are pollutants and should be eliminated or controlled. Ozone is nature’s way of trying to oxidize and eliminate these deadly contaminants. They say ozone  "may"" or  "could"  be harmful…that’s not science! That’s speculation. You can quote from the EPA, FDA, and ALA as much as you want… The bottom line is our equipment is registered with the EPA! This equipment has been granted GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) status by the US GOVT. The US Food and Drug Adm. has formally approved the methods we employ in gaseous (air) and aqueous (water) phases as an antimicrobial agent. The USDA has published studies supporting the success they have had with ion technology in the reduction of dust and the transmission of disease. So you see…we have safe air and water purification systems! Approved technology, registered with the EPA and granted GRAS! Industrial and Environmental Safety Specialists testing facility reported: Airborne mold reduced an average of 49.7% in FOUR MINUTES. Airborne bacteria reduced an average of 54.2% in FOUR MINUTES. VOC (Isobutylene, typical) reduced from 36.5% to 53.7% in FOUR MINUTES. Research scientists from John Hopkins University reported: Airborne fungal concentrations reduced to 51%, and made this comment "Although the exact nature mechanism leading to airborne fungal concentration redutions is unclear, the effect is well substantiated and statistically robust." Handyman has put their seal of approval on these products as well. Member tested and recommended. Mold, Mildew, Bacteria, Allergens –  dust, dander and pollen, Odors, Smoke, Tobacco smoke and cigarette smoke

Question:

It must be that your authority for subjects is selective.

Perhaps Ilsa finds the subject of Acupuncture more interesting and relevant than Chiropractic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Rollie Pollie Ilsa you like to use the NIH as your source of enlightenment. E Pluribus Unum. Have you read what the NIH has to say about chiropractic? No. — Rollie Pollie

Response:

Med Tools: How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ? Here is what the NIH Consensus Report has to say about that:

Ya, that consensus report is 5 years old.  There’s even more new info about Acupuncture’s safety here: http://www.pulsemed.org/challengingbody.htm#2 (Safety of Acupuncture in terms of Insurance Malpractice Claims, Frequency and Types of Adverse Events in 55,291 Acupuncture Treatments, 2 September 2001 Studies of safety of acupuncture in British Medical Journal plus The Safety of Acupuncture compared with that of Biomedicine) Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether  to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of  to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into  their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering  palm upside your head!

First Do No Harm… Actually, that was kinda funny — Brian Benjamin Carter Editor, The PULSE of Oriental Medicine http://www.pulsemed.org

Response:

Med Tools: How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ?

Here is what the NIH Consensus Report has to say about that: One of the advantages of acupuncture is that the incidence of adverse effects is substantially lower than that of many drugs or other accepted medical procedures used for the same conditions. As an example, musculoskeletal conditions, such as fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, and tennis elbow, or epicondylitis, are conditions for which acupuncture may be beneficial. These painful conditions are often treated with, among other things, anti-inflammatory medications (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) or with steroid injections. Both medical interventions have a potential for deleterious side effects but are still widely used and are considered acceptable treatments. The evidence supporting these therapies is no better than that for acupuncture. Like, is it true that the same points are used in the infamous Dim Mak? You

know, Death Touch. Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ?

Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering palm upside your head!

Response:

Well, it appears that selective Rollie is right about their being a rule change on safety testing of adult meds given to children.  Here is the entire article for those interested in this OFF-TOPIC Thread.

Typical nonsense Andrew. Medications for children or anyone is certainly ON TOPIC on any health newsgroup.  For the rest of us, there is the on-topic thread about the risks of Chiropractic adjustments

Like Deconstructing Atlas. Name calling. Foul language. LIES. Belittling. Wishing disabilities on others. etc etc ect

Response:

  And so…… No acupuncturists ever use the deadly, angle, pressure, combination of points? Even by inexperience?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Med Tools: How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ? Here is what the NIH Consensus Report has to say about that: One of the advantages of acupuncture is that the incidence of adverse effects is substantially lower than that of many drugs or other accepted medical procedures used for the same conditions. As an example, musculoskeletal conditions, such as fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, and tennis elbow, or epicondylitis, are conditions for which acupuncture may be beneficial. These painful conditions are often treated with, among other things, anti-inflammatory medications (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) or with steroid injections. Both medical interventions have a potential for deleterious side effects but are still widely used and are considered acceptable treatments. The evidence supporting these therapies is no better than that for acupuncture. Like, is it true that the same points are used in the infamous Dim Mak? You know, Death Touch. Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ? Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering palm upside your head!

Response:

Ilsa you like to use the NIH as your source of enlightenment.  Have you read what the NIH has to say about chiropractic? — Rollie Pollie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Med Tools: How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ? Here is what the NIH Consensus Report has to say about that: One of the advantages of acupuncture is that the incidence of adverse effects is substantially lower than that of many drugs or other accepted medical procedures used for the same conditions. As an example, musculoskeletal conditions, such as fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, and tennis elbow, or epicondylitis, are conditions for which acupuncture may be beneficial. These painful conditions are often treated with, among other things, anti-inflammatory medications (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) or with steroid injections. Both medical interventions have a potential for deleterious side effects but are still widely used and are considered acceptable treatments. The evidence supporting these therapies is no better than that for acupuncture. Like, is it true that the same points are used in the infamous Dim Mak? You know, Death Touch. Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ? Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering palm upside your head!

Response:

 And so…… No acupuncturists ever use the deadly, angle, pressure, combination of points? Even by inexperience?

Uh, did you read my entire reply or is top-reading the other half of your top-posting malfunction? Here it is again: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ? Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering palm upside your head! Med Tools: How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ? Here is what the NIH Consensus Report has to say about that: One of the advantages of acupuncture is that the incidence of adverse effects is substantially lower than that of many drugs or other accepted medical procedures used for the same conditions. As an example, musculoskeletal conditions, such as fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, and tennis elbow, or epicondylitis, are conditions for which acupuncture may be beneficial. These painful conditions are often treated with, among other things, anti-inflammatory medications (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) or with steroid injections. Both medical interventions have a potential for deleterious side effects but are still widely used and are considered acceptable treatments. The evidence supporting these therapies is no better than that for acupuncture. Like, is it true that the same points are used in the infamous Dim Mak? You know, Death Touch. Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ? Yes, as a matter of fact, many acupuncturists get confused as to whether to or not to use the "Quivering Palm" (Death Touch).  They often lose track of to whether or not they are treating a patient that happened to walk into their office or if they are in a caged death match with a trained opponent. Therefore, do not annoy an Acupuncturist or you’ll suffer the quivering palm upside your head!

Response:

Ilsa you like to use the NIH as your source of enlightenment.

E Pluribus Unum. Have you read what the NIH has to say about chiropractic?

No. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Rollie Pollie

Response:

It must be that your authority for subjects is selective. — Rollie Pollie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ilsa you like to use the NIH as your source of enlightenment. E Pluribus Unum. Have you read what the NIH has to say about chiropractic? No. — Rollie Pollie

Response:

How bout one about the risks of acupuncture / acupressure ?  Like , is it true that the same points are used in the infamous Dim Mak ? You know, Death Touch. Do you think that it might be possible for an accident to happen ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, it appears that selective Rollie is right about their being a rule change on safety testing of adult meds given to children.  Here is the entire article for those interested in this OFF-TOPIC Thread.  For the rest of us, there is the on-topic thread about the risks of Chiropractic adjustments, which Rollie regards as off-topic. FDA Suspends Drug-Testing Rule Mon Mar 18, 8:47 PM ET WASHINGTON – The Food and Drug Administration (news – web sites) is suspending a rule that lets the government require safety testing of adult medicines commonly given to children – from asthma treatments to Prozac. The reason: FDA says Congress recently reauthorized financial incentives for manufacturers to do those studies. The FDA said it wants to see if the new law makes the old mandate, which drug makers hated, unnecessary. But three Democrats complained to President Bush (news – web sites) on Monday that the action was halting "an important regulation that protects children from potentially unsafe and improperly dosed medications." Adult medications are commonly given to children without studies of their safety or proper dosing because doctors have no alternative. Drug makers have used the financial incentives to focus their studies on more expensive drugs, like Prozac, rather than cheaper ones that no longer have patent protection, but are used as much if not more in children, wrote Reps. Henry Waxman of California, John Dingell of Michigan and Sherrod Brown of Ohio. The FDA’s so-called "pediatric rule" was adopted in 1998. A conservative think tank and the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons immediately filed suit against it, represented by an attorney recently appointed to be the FDA’s chief counsel. He reportedly has recused himself from the government’s debate of the issue. Shortly after the pediatric rule’s adoption, Congress passed the financial incentives, so it’s unclear to what extent the FDA ever forced manufacturers into child drug studies. The new Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, signed into law in January, reauthorized the financial incentives, plus set up a grant program to allow taxpayer dollars for pediatric studies of drugs their makers, despite the incentives, won’t do. During a two-year suspension of the older mandate, the FDA will assess if the new law takes care of the problem, said spokeswoman Susan Cruzan. But the new law is "no substitute for requiring drug makers to perform safety studies," said Waxman spokeswoman Karen Lightfoot. While the suspension is scheduled to last up to two years, "our intention is to resolve this issue quickly to ensure that children’s medications are safe and used properly," the FDA said in a statement late Monday.

Response:

Well, it appears that selective Rollie is right about their being a rule change on safety testing of adult meds given to children.  Here is the entire article for those interested in this OFF-TOPIC Thread.  For the rest of us, there is the on-topic thread about the risks of Chiropractic adjustments, which Rollie regards as off-topic. FDA Suspends Drug-Testing Rule Mon Mar 18, 8:47 PM ET WASHINGTON – The Food and Drug Administration (news – web sites) is suspending a rule that lets the government require safety testing of adult medicines commonly given to children