Question:

hi karen, welcome to asd! lots of people who are not multiple get hives…it’s a physical reaction to stress, although it can also occur in allergic reactions to meds and other occasions. of course, if you have d.i.d., you (or one of your insiders) may also have problems with stress or anxiety, so in that way they could be related. glad you decided to post.  this is a good place to learn about stuff and just hang out. diane, of Ravensong – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so. So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

"If you feel bad, blow bubble stuff or watch the snails after it rains.  That always makes me feel better."                                     – Katy, of Ravensong

Response:

Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so. So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

Response:

Hi karen Welcome to ASD While not plagued with h*ves, we’ve had to deal with several stress related problems.. Stress..like DID is a personal thing.. Kinda hard to put your finger on the cause …too!! High stress in DIDers is probably pretty common! Perhaps since you noticed an increase in relapses in the last 6 mths… It might be worthwhile to investigate any new  or newly compounded stressors in your life! You wouldn’t happen to be in therp? would you? That can be a real stressor!! I’m not particularly knowledgable about this.. but it seems within reason.. body memories could appear as hives ’specially if specific places are being affected… Anyway… Hi Hi    welcome J/c

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so. So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

Response:

Welcome to the group! Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces.

Yep, that sounds familiar. I was officially labeled in 1992 although it was pretty obvious before that and a t’pist tried to suggest it in 1982 but I at least wasn’t paying attention. It took quite a while before any of us inside got a handle on the idea of being multiple and it took me probably two/three years before I personally accepted it. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so.

Yes, it could be stress related, or a body memory or… have you checked to see if you might have anything _real_ going on? Like I have heard that hotels in the US are having an increase in bedbugs for some reason. Maybe you have a new comforter or new detergent or… fleas or whatever. Maybe it’s an allergy or… In my/our case several body type problems got worse at first when we were working on healing because the body memories got stronger. We used hypnosis quite a bit (guided imagery with the t’pist, self hypnosis and meditation at home) and that really helped stop or decrease the problems like this. Maybe your t’pist can help in this way? Other options would include biofeedback, relaxation, and any thing else you can think of to help short circuit the process. As I understand hives and itching and those types of reactions they are histimine related and you can control this reaction in your body. People with asthma and allergies can do this with help and practice. For example, I used to have what seemed like asthma attacks but they weren’t. I learned to control the way my throat relaxed and contracted to get those muscles to relax and not constrict which was causing my asthmatic like reactions. I also did the same thing with the passages leading to my lungs for the same reason. I personally used biofeedback and self hypnosis to do this. One thing I just thought of that would be an example of how my system would have worked on this type of problem. I would learn a guided imagery ’scene’ with my t’pist that involved me mentally putting on a special lotion on the parts that get itchy. Then I would practice this over and over (several times a day at home for a week or more) and each time I would tell myself that when I put on this special lotion it would allow my body to feel safe and relaxed and not itchy. Then I would go out and get a very specific lotion that I liked (if you like a certain scent maybe that or in my case it would be some very unscented but special lotion, not just your typical lotion from the grocery store) and then I would actually put the lotion on at times I wasn’t reacting and I would again use guided imagery to point out to myself that I was putting on this special lotion and that my skin did not itch and it felt safe. Eventually my mind and body would get the message (it might take a while like several months) that if I put on the lotion I wasn’t going to be itchy. But of course I would make sure there wasn’t a real problem happening first, like an allergy to my clothes detergent!!!! I would also work very hard in t’py to see if there was some direct connection to the problem like a memory and I would also work on generalized stress reduction. It might just be your body’s reaction to stress and if you fix this problem without teaching yourself a new way to handle stress it will just show up in a different way like stomach problems or whatever (been there and done that, I _strongly_ recommend you learn to handle stress if you are going to start changing how your body handles stress cause the new way your body decides to express stress might be _really_ annoying!!) Rainbow Colors (Jill) So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

hi RC just jumping in for one question/comment [major snippage] For example, I used to have what seemed like asthma attacks but they weren’t. I learned to control the way my throat relaxed and contracted to get those muscles to relax and not constrict which was causing my asthmatic like reactions. I also did the same thing with the passages leading to my lungs for the same reason. I personally used biofeedback and self hypnosis to do this.

Could you please elaborate what you mean by asthmalike attacks and the kinda cure you used? It seems sometimes we’ll have something like that but only at night. We don’t even notice it (just sometimes we catch a glimpse, so to say, either when it’s just starting while we fall asleep or when it’s ending while we’re waking up) but our SO of course notices it (it keeps him awake and has him worried). Went to the doctors for this but they couldn’t find anything (we sorta suspected some kinda allergic asthma developing here). So maybe it’s a psychosomatic thing or related to body memories. Yet, what you wrote sounded sorta similar – so maybe you got any helpful ideas for the usses? TIA & we hope we’ll get back to a more regular posting as well as e-mailing mode one of these days *sigh* mischa’s chaos

Response:

Thank you all for your warm welcomes and suggestions.  I find it frustrating that so many things could be DID related or could not. The itching, rashes, and hives occurs when I am out and about, not just at home.  But they are definitely worse at night … however, it could just seem that way because I have more time to dwell on it. At any rate, I do plan on going to an allergist in a couple weeks and hopefully have the full gamet of allergy tests done.  In the back of my mind, though, I am worried that it will show nothing. karen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so. So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

Response:

Hello karen, and welcome.  I am not an MD or a psych., just an educated and experienced DIDer – and my opinion is that, yes, it could be related to DID, and then again, it could be not related to DID.  How’s that for a helpful answer?  I would say try to have physical stuff checked out – allergies and stuff – keeping some kind of record of when the stuff occurs and what is occurring at the same time and stuff.  Go from there. Take care – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello.  I am a new poster and decided it was time to introduce myself.  I have been dx for less than a year.  To tell you truth, I still sometimes have trouble accepting it, but I am starting to understand and become more aware … when I am not feeling like I am in pieces. Anyway, I have a question about whether something is related to DID.  It is so hard to know sometimes.  I have quite a problem with hives and itching. It usually comes at n*ght.  Sometimes it is focused on a specific place and other time it is just everywhere!  I did discuss this with my medical doctor (who does not know of my dx) and he said it was just stress.  I have had this problem for a long while, but has gotten much worse within last 6 months or so. So … does anybody else have a problem such as this?  Is it DID related or am I in the wrong ball park?  Just trying to make sense of things … thanks. karen

Response:

hi RC

just jumping in for one question/comment

Just plopping in for a reply then – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -[major snippage] For example, I used to have what seemed like asthma attacks but they weren’t. I learned to control the way my throat relaxed and contracted to get those muscles to relax and not constrict which was causing my asthmatic like reactions. I also did the same thing with the passages leading to my lungs for the same reason. I personally used biofeedback and self hypnosis to do this. Could you please elaborate what you mean by asthmalike attacks and the kinda cure you used? It seems sometimes we’ll have something like that but only at night. We don’t even notice it (just sometimes we catch a glimpse, so to say, either when it’s just starting while we fall asleep or when it’s ending while we’re waking up) but our SO of course notices it (it keeps him awake and has him worried). Went to the doctors for this but they couldn’t find anything (we sorta suspected some kinda allergic asthma developing here). So maybe it’s a psychosomatic thing or related to body memories. Yet, what you wrote sounded sorta similar – so maybe you got any helpful ideas for the usses?

Ok, so I’ll just ramble on about it and you fit it into your situation as you can. First, as a child I had chronic asthmatic bronchitis because of my dad’s chain smoking. All the kids in the family had _something_ related to it. When I left home I was able to get a humidifier for the furnace and that helped quite a bit. In this problem the airways in the lungs get constricted and inflamed and the humidity helps them to relax and open up. I also used an over the counter asthma inhaler and that helped too but it made me _really_ wired. I also had a problem that might be related to dry air or might be all in my head or who knows. In this problem. I would get what felt like a tickle in my throat and it would make me cough a dry little nothing like cough. It would irritate my throat and inflame it so that it made me wheeze (asthma like). Several things helped this. One was to increase the humidity in the air (remember chicago in the winter is really really dry so _any_ increase in humidity helps), one was to use saline spray in my nose to increase mositure in my sinuses, one was to drink _lots_ of water and one was to suck on hard candy to keep my throat moist. No one ever knew if it was real or in my head when it happened. I also had a problem that caused my most severe asthma like symptoms (wheezing, fast breathing) that never related to anything I could figure out. In this case I learned to slow my breathing down, relax my throat and lung muscles and then convince myself that I could breathe normally. I did this in t’py using hypnosis and guided imagery. It is possible that all of my problems were real and were directly related to damage from my dad’s smoking or the dry air in Illinois. I have had basically no problems since moving to Colorado. When I was preg I did have some minor problems with the cough thing but just using saline spray in my nose fixed it so it might have been related to preg hormones. If the problems were/are real the solution is to increase humidity, increase the amount of water you drink and learn to relax your muscles so that your lungs can work better. These are all common sense type things they teach kids with asthma btw. Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

x-no-archive. hi Melissa please scroll. Could you please elaborate what you mean by asthmalike attacks and the kinda cure you used? It seems sometimes we’ll have something like that but only at night. We don’t even notice it (just sometimes we catch a glimpse, so to say, either when it’s just starting while we fall asleep or when it’s ending while we’re waking up) but our SO of course notices it (it keeps him awake and has him worried). Went to the doctors for this but they couldn’t find anything (we sorta suspected some kinda allergic asthma developing here). So maybe it’s a psychosomatic thing or related to body memories. Yet, what you wrote sounded sorta similar – so maybe you got any helpful ideas for the usses? Actually, this sounds more like "Sleep Apnea." (what do I know. I’m not a Dr. But still….) Have you ever been checked for that?

not really. the doc thought about this one, though. yet as our SO insist we don’t stop breathing when this happens and as we wouldn’t be able to sleep anywhere else properly, we didn’t go through with this. like … when we sleep at home/next to our SO, we can be very "lively" in our sleep at times. yet, every time we sleep somewhere else, we will be invisible and nobody will hear a thing. so we know we don’t sleep deep enough or relaxed enough when our SO’s not there … oh well, prolly this is all worrying about nothing anyway. yet, thanks for taking your time to reply. and we hope it’s okay it took us a while to say this. mischa’s chaos

Response:

hi RC [major snippage] Could you please elaborate what you mean by asthmalike attacks and the kinda cure you used? It seems sometimes we’ll have something like that but only at night. We don’t even notice it (just sometimes we catch a glimpse, so to say, either when it’s just starting while we fall asleep or when it’s ending while we’re waking up) but our SO of course notices it (it keeps him awake and has him worried). Went to the doctors for this but they couldn’t find anything (we sorta suspected some kinda allergic asthma developing here). So maybe it’s a psychosomatic thing or related to body memories. Yet, what you wrote sounded sorta similar – so maybe you got any helpful ideas for the usses? Ok, so I’ll just ramble on about it and you fit it into your situation as you can.

hehe so ramble on. thanks for the reply, btw. )) First, as a child I had chronic asthmatic bronchitis because of my dad’s chain smoking. All the kids in the family had _something_ related to it. When I left home I was able to get a humidifier for the furnace and that helped quite a bit. In this problem the airways in the lungs get constricted and inflamed and the humidity helps them to relax and open up. I also used an over the counter asthma inhaler and that helped too but it made me _really_ wired.

*yuck* I also had a problem that might be related to dry air or might be all in my head or who knows. In this problem. I would get what felt like a tickle in my throat and it would make me cough a dry little nothing like cough.

hm that sounds very much like what’s happening here. the tickle, I mean. so maybe we could try to do something about the maybe dry air? *scratching the head* It would irritate my throat and inflame it so that it made me wheeze (asthma like). Several things helped this. One was to increase the humidity in the air (remember chicago in the winter is really really dry so _any_ increase in humidity helps), one was to use saline spray in my nose to increase mositure in my sinuses, one was to drink _lots_ of water and one was to suck on hard candy to keep my throat moist. No one ever knew if it was real or in my head when it happened.

hm, as you know, we already dring a lot … drinking more would prolly mean getting rid of the occassional coughing by more or less permanently spening our nights on the toilet. )) I also had a problem that caused my most severe asthma like symptoms (wheezing, fast breathing) that never related to anything I could figure out. In this case I learned to slow my breathing down, relax my throat and lung muscles and then convince myself that I could breathe normally. I did this in t’py using hypnosis and guided imagery.

ah – but the imagery etc. was helping you with stuff relatd to fast beathing, right? so prolly here things are very different with the usses. we breath very very very slow and deep. It is possible that all of my problems were real and were directly related to damage from my dad’s smoking or the dry air in Illinois. I have had basically no problems since moving to Colorado. When I was preg I did have some minor problems with the cough thing but just using saline spray in my nose fixed it so it might have been related to preg hormones. If the problems were/are real the solution is to increase humidity, increase the amount of water you drink and learn to relax your muscles so that your lungs can work better. These are all common sense type things they teach kids with asthma btw. Rainbow Colors (Jill)

thanks again. and then, it’s always good to talk to you! mischa’s chaos

Response:

Today we were reading a paper about something.  Mind goes blank. Today we were reading a paper about recovery from Trauma.  It goes on about how to help Trauma Survivors become more functional, especially job ready.  And also about the anger Trauma Survivors feel and is it appropriate or not.  The paper seems to say the way we express anger might not be appropriate.  It did say that sometimes Trauma Survivors get retraumatized by th*py but said nothing to address that.  It just shouldn’t happen I guess.  But it said Nothing about the pain and healing the pain.  Does anyone else have a problem with this? Does anyone else experience intense pain at times that makes working and everything else totally like outside the realm of possible to think about? Does anyone else wish they’d say something about the pain and wish that other people understood the pain?  So sad.  So invalidating.  Head just hurts. Anita/alc (from Butterflypuzzle System)

Response:

I don’t know if this is related to what you read or are thinking about, Anita/alc, but here’s what I started thinking about when I read your post.     As long and as much as I can remember of my adult life I have made very conscientious efforts to understand my own anger at particular moments about particular things and communicate effectively with people to try and change the things that I felt the anger about.  I have studied and practiced lots and lots of communication techniques.  In the feminist movement I attended and participated in assertiveness trainings and anger management workshops. In school I studied writing, visual arts, and music.  I’ve studied other languages than my original one.  I’ve gone to thrpy.     When I find myself in a situation that I feel anger about, or when I know of something that I feel anger about, I refrain from expression for a bit and reflect on the situation.  I decide on what my options are and proceed as best I can toward achieving the best result that I can figure out of the situation.  Here’s a recent example:                                         I went to a local organization that offered me resources for the tenant rights work that I’m doing to print up some fliers.  The exec. dir. told me that he was getting funding to hire a tenant organizer.  I told him I would be glad to have that job.  He told me to write up a memo re: how I would proceed and give it to him with a resume. So I did.  The next time I saw him he stacked up a bunch of resumes, one by one, in front of me, from young men who have degrees of various sorts from fancy colleges, lots of ivy league places, and said, "All these people are trying to get me to give them a job."  The last one he tossed, literally, in front of me, was one with a photo of the young man.  The e.d. said, "This guys a crack economist from Cornel.  I hired him to do an analysis for me." I chuckled a little and said, "And you can count on it because the guy went to Cornel, right?"  The e.d. answered, "We all have our biases."     So, I was angry inside because I got the msg from this guy that he preferred young men with fancy degrees to a middle aged woman with degrees from a state univ. and many years of organizing experience and an established community network built upon many and varied accomplishments in politics and organizing.  But I thought that I couldn’t really confront the guy about this because I still need the resources that he controls to get the work done that I want to accomplish.  So, I politely told him that I was getting a little confused, that I wasn’t sure why he showed me all of those resumes and I was wondering if he still though that he might have some money to fund my project.  To this he responded, "Well, are you ready to be accountable?"  I felt a little more anger then.  I thought he should either offer me a job with the specified qualifications, skills, and duties and let me either demonstrate my qualifications or decline, and then, if I applied he could evaluate me, based on my education and experience and references to decide or he should tell me there isn’t an opening.  But I said to him, "Well, that depends.  Accountable to what?"  He only answered, "To me."  So, again, I spoke politely to him.  I said, "I would need to know what the standards and expectations are that you would want me to be accountable to. I also need to know how much involvement I would have in the program development.  Ideally, I think that the group of tenants as a whole should be directing the actions that we pursue to protect our homes and rights. Perhaps we could meet at another time and discuss it in detail."     "There isn’t anything to discuss, " he said.  "I just wanted to know if you were willing to be accountable."     I needed to leave for a couple of different reasons and I didn’t think that the conversation could go anywhere else, anyway.  So I politely withdrew.  I felt plenty of anger, but I wanted to keep having access to the meeting space, the printing privileges, and the canvassers who might distribute some info for me.  I went home to think about how best to proceed with this guy.     I do the same thing in personal relationships, too.  If a friend does or says something that angers me I weigh that situation or moment against all the good stuff that I can think of about the friend, take some time and decide how to either communicate with the person about the problem or to let it go.     Meanwhile, when I go to thrpy I express my frustrations and anger to the t.  I tell him about what happens to me inside in response to particular situations.  And he tells me that I have a lot of rage and fury.  As if it is bad for me to be angry.     This confuses me.     I really don’t think it is bad for me to be angry.  I think that the guy at the organization where I print stuff is elitist and controlling.  I think I’m the righteous person in our relationship.  I don’t get to tell him what I think because he controls the resources and I am the begger in that regard.  I didn’t get to tell the vet who tried to exmine my dog where I couldn’t see what was happening what I thought because she was the vet at an animal clinic for low income people and I am poor.  I don’t get to tell my landlord what I think because he has the right to evict me with no explanation, according to the real property code of the state that I live in.  I don’t get to tell the doctors who treat me with disrespect and improper attention what I think because I might have an emergency and need them to get me into a hsptl and that’s how my health care plan works.  If I tell a friend of mine who recently put her step-mother out of her home, after her father d*ed, so she could sell the place and collect the money, that I think that was heartless (her step-mother now lives in a trailer. She married my friend’s father after my friend and her siblings were grown and their mother had d*ed), my friend will likely have hurt feelings, nothing will be changed except for a strain on our friendship, but meanwhile my respect for my friend has gone down at least one notch.     Anyway, I guess I’m ranting.  Ah, anger.     I’m just trying to show the array of things that anger me.     And I think that I’m justified in feeling anger.  And I think that I don’t use it detrimentally, not socially anyway.  I have done some self-destructive things.   (But then, what happens to anyone’s anger after sie get’s told repeatedly to can it, that it is inappropriate to express it, that it is wrong, that sie should not feel it?  How can it help but turn against oneself?  In the end I feel as if I am somehow inferior because I cannot succeed at communicating what I intend or mean.  After awhile I figure that if no one will give me adequate health care I probably don’t deserve it.  Who cares if I can never use my hands again?  (i’ve written other posts about the deterioration of my hands and the difficulty I’m finding in getting the problem attended to.)  And after even awhile more of numerous and continuous frustrations how is it possible for anyone to conclude anything other than sie shouldn’t even live any longer.  It’s just too much trouble and besides nobody cares and hir life is of no consequence, either positive or negative, except for her own g*ddam pain!)     But still, my t criticizes me for my external expression of anger.     And still, I defiantly disagree with his assessment.  I continue to find it to be rooted in the prevailing ideology that makes the anger of women inappropriate in just about every circumstance.     Long-winded, I am.  Sorry.  Maybe it’s a symptom of my anger.  Anyway, it’s a difficult subject.  I don’t think it is healthy for us to deny our anger.  I tend to become more angry when others try to tell me how to express my anger, especially if those others are part of the source of my anger.  You know, like if Dubya said that nobody should ever demonstrate in front of the white house again, you can bet I’d be there with as many people as could be pulled together from all over the country in as little time as possible. Huh.  I’m starting to fear judgment here so now I’m gonna shut up. trill p.s.  Did I spell "Cornel" correctly?  I don’t even know.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today we were reading a paper about something.  Mind goes blank. Today we were reading a paper about recovery from Trauma.  It goes on about how to help Trauma Survivors become more functional, especially job ready. And also about the anger Trauma Survivors feel and is it appropriate or not. The paper seems to say the way we express anger might not be appropriate.  It did say that sometimes Trauma Survivors get retraumatized by th*py but said nothing to address that.  It just shouldn’t happen I guess.  But it said Nothing about the pain and healing the pain.  Does anyone else have a problem with this? Does anyone else experience intense pain at times that makes working and everything else totally like outside the realm of possible to think about? Does anyone else wish they’d say something about the pain and wish that other people understood the pain?  So sad.  So invalidating.  Head just hurts. Anita/alc (from Butterflypuzzle System)

Response:

weeell, of course Anita! expressing pain is what i’ve been doing for the past several years on these ng’s. as i have said, i am the last person i looked at in all this mess. now it’s time to deal with me. i never could express anything – good or negative. as to expressing anger – society feels uncomfortable with expressions of anger. what’s the use to express it (any emotions) if the person we express it toward can’t handle it. i thought the whole idea of expressing anger was to – um, express anger, not be thought of as out of control. anger isn’t allowed anymore. it isn’t a trust worthy emotion used (expressed) for better purposes. too bad for this. cliff

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Hihi Cliff,  It’s the pain that gets to me.  I just feel this intense searing pain in my head~not physically but like a burning coal in the middle of my mind sometimes.  As if I’m soffocating an can’t seem to get my eyes to focus an everything is spinning around and I feel as if I am gonna drown.  That’s when I think of my own addictions~something, anything, even de*th to get the pa*n to go away.  Hard to catch my breath at those times.  I want someone to be with me to know how bad I am suffering.  I take a breath an then like facing a huge gigantic monster I begin to look the monster in the eyes.  I feel the monster’s breath on my neck an whispers of destruction in my ears. But I walk forward toward the monster and it shrivels.  It sends out a blast of flame right into my chest, my arms tremble an my legs give way.  I try to get the dark swirls in front of my eyes to clear so that I can see what’s before me but they only swirl sickeningly more and my insides all wretch and want to vom*t.  I put my hands out but they only tremble before me.  My throat is grasping for moisture.  I feel as if all h*ll is rising up around me.  With hands feeling along and fighting to keep breathing pulling back the darkness so that I may look into the face of the dragon once more I step forward.  The earth trembles and I think I am gonna quake and fall into the abyss.  My knees buckle but my hand grasps the pen and I write.  I write I know not what.  I write and I write and write.  In my mind I hear the dragon rumbling round, will I be edible food, will I survive.  I write.  The dragon calms.  I look up.  Could it be, is it possible the dragon has shrunk.  Faster I write, faster, words coming more and more.  The dragons backs.  I write.  The dragon backs.  I cry, I scream, I gurgle inside.  The dragon shrinks.  Tears stream down past my face they splash steam on the hot floor.  My trembling fingers come out of the darkness.  My head swirls in blue smoke.  I begin to breathe.  Sweat pours from my forehead and drips down onto the paper.  I turn to look at the dragon.  It is gone~no not gone shrunk.  It looks sad and small and pathetic.  I regret having given it such power.  It turns twittering away~walking with it’s tail between it’s legs around the corner of the room.  Perhaps I was wrong~that wasn’t a dragon as I thot runs thru my mind.  As the last of it’s tail flows round the corner I hear it say, "I’ll be back".  And I know. Anita

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Hi Trill, I am only going to express an opinion here but it is mine and so it counts for I matter! You express yourself eloquently almost inspirationally in a true revolutionary sense.  The others are clueless.  100 years from now they will still be looking for people to silence while you will be looking for people you can give voice to.  That voice will last long after you’re gone for your fingers have typed the sacred~the truth of a spirit.  Their words have sought to cripple a spirit~a spirit that would not for all the chains in this world be crippled.  A spirit bound not by human limitations but only under it’s own valued discipline. ((((((hugs)))))) if o.k. Anita

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hello, Anita. i think i misunderstood the pain you spoke about in the first post of this thread. your description of the dragon is clear. Anita, this sort of pain you speak about, and i am sorry for asking if i seem intrusive – is this symptom one that is common amongst us?  i have heard of "pressure" before. hope yo are doing ok. safe  {{((hugs))}} cliff

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Hello Cliff, Thanks for asking.  I was thinking about the pain of memories in both  e-mails or for me there is a pain that’s like that which runs excruciating thru my mind but it seems to be only about tapes or messages I got in my developing years.  Either way looking directly at the thing causing the pain generally relieves it for me.  Now here I have to admit that most of the ab*se which tore my life apart (I’m a multi)  was what I saw happen to other people~my siblings~not things that actually happened to me.  It was rough but when I hear other people’s stories I think I don’t know if I could survive re-experiencing that.  For me it’s been so hard with my own mem*res that I’ve had to check into a psych hospital 4 X in my life just to be safe.  I really don’t recommend that other people do things the way I do.  But for me all the self-soothing stuff just keeps me in the pain and crazy acting out behaviors. When the pain comes up all I want to do is just get thru it and be over it.  If I were unsafe doing this tho I’d proly take a different tack.  I’m just saying that I respect people’s needs to take care of themselves in the way that meets their needs best cause I certainly don’t have the answers for others there.      Sendin you wishes for sunshine in your day.  {{{{hugs}}}}, Anita

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yes we mistunderstod the pain too we don’t have head pain sometims we have other bodypain]but we talking about emtoinst beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello, Anita. i think i misunderstood the pain you spoke about in the first post of this thread. your description of the dragon is clear. Anita, this sort of pain you speak about, and i am sorry for asking if i seem intrusive – is this symptom one that is common amongst us?  i have heard of "pressure" before. hope yo are doing ok. safe  {{((hugs))}} cliff

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Yes soemtimes we feel so bad we can’t do anything.] beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Today we were reading a paper about something.  Mind goes blank. Today we were reading a paper about recovery from Trauma.  It goes on about how to help Trauma Survivors become more functional, especially job ready.  And also about the anger Trauma Survivors feel and is it appropriate or not.  The paper seems to say the way we express anger might not be appropriate.  It did say that sometimes Trauma Survivors get retraumatized by th*py but said nothing to address that.  It just shouldn’t happen I guess.  But it said Nothing about the pain and healing the pain.  Does anyone else have a problem with this? Does anyone else experience intense pain at times that makes working and everything else totally like outside the realm of possible to think about? Does anyone else wish they’d say something about the pain and wish that other people understood the pain?  So sad.  So invalidating.  Head just hurts. Anita/alc (from Butterflypuzzle System)

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We think soemtism seing pain of others hurts so much more than having own – and yours tory sasy that – we so sorry = want better for you – beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Cliff, Thanks for asking.  I was thinking about the pain of memories in both  e-mails or for me there is a pain that’s like that which runs excruciating thru my mind but it seems to be only about tapes or messages I got in my developing years.  Either way looking directly at the thing causing the pain generally relieves it for me.  Now here I have to admit that most of the ab*se which tore my life apart (I’m a multi)  was what I saw happen to other people~my siblings~not things that actually happened to me.  It was rough but when I hear other people’s stories I think I don’t know if I could survive re-experiencing that.  For me it’s been so hard with my own mem*res that I’ve had to check into a psych hospital 4 X in my life just to be safe.  I really don’t recommend that other people do things the way I do.  But for me all the self-soothing stuff just keeps me in the pain and crazy acting out behaviors. When the pain comes up all I want to do is just get thru it and be over it.  If I were unsafe doing this tho I’d proly take a different tack.  I’m just saying that I respect people’s needs to take care of themselves in the way that meets their needs best cause I certainly don’t have the answers for others there.      Sendin you wishes for sunshine in your day.  {{{{hugs}}}}, Anita

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So very glad that you have moved beyond the emotional pain (mostly) in terms of being able to function.  I am not sure how much of my dysfunction is emotional and how much is because of bipolar and how much because of behaviorally ingrained habits – I just don’t know.  A lot of it is a feeling of being overwhelmed – like it’s too much, so I don’t do anything;  or that whatever it is I have to do, I am inadequate (which usually is ridiculous, rationally, yet the feeling paralyzes). Anyhow – I remain so glad you have gone past the emotional stuff that was keeping you down (except for sometimes) – and wish for your passage through this rougher time w/as much strength and peace as possible. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hihi Beauty, We don’t have a lot of physical stuff so we don’t know much there.  We’re sorry bout your back pains tho.  Wish we could give you a back rub to help~please kno we’re sending one across the e-lines ifn that’s o.k.       We kno bout the emotional stuff tho and how much that hurts n paralyzes us.  We don’t usually have that so much any more tho lately has been a bit rough.  But when it use to be there it would really take us down so that we couldn’t focus or function or anything.  It was just awful for 3 years and then it began to ease up and every year it’s gotten lots better.  Right now in the work we’re doing we’re running up against things that are really hard for us and we have to work on ourselves more but we kno we’ll get thru this also so that we’ll feel like we’re moving to the other side again after a while. Wishing you a good day, Yur frend, Anita

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Hihi Beauty, We don’t have a lot of physical stuff so we don’t know much there.  We’re sorry bout your back pains tho.  Wish we could give you a back rub to help~please kno we’re sending one across the e-lines ifn that’s o.k.       We kno bout the emotional stuff tho and how much that hurts n paralyzes us.  We don’t usually have that so much any more tho lately has been a bit rough.  But when it use to be there it would really take us down so that we couldn’t focus or function or anything.  It was just awful for 3 years and then it began to ease up and every year it’s gotten lots better.  Right now in the work we’re doing we’re running up against things that are really hard for us and we have to work on ourselves more but we kno we’ll get thru this also so that we’ll feel like we’re moving to the other side again after a while. Wishing you a good day, Yur frend, Anita

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Thank *you* for reminding us how much it hurts to see others hurt.  It’s important to have that known – I think it is so little emphasized how traumatizing it is. Still hoping things get better.  We are better today, thanks. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awww Thank you, Beauty for writing an for understandin how much it hurts to see other pepl hurt. We want better for you too, my frend. (((hugs))) ifn o.k. Anita We think soemtism seing pain of others hurts so much more than having own – and yours tory sasy that – we so sorry = want better for you – beautys.

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Unfortunately, it happens to us a lot – but it’s emotional pain.  The physical pain – well, it’s that back stuff we have, and it does limit what we can do – we can do only so much and then we have to lie down.  But that we don’t mind so much – it’s the emotional stuff that we hate.  Or whatever the name for the inertia is.  Emotional paralysis. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Awww Beauty, we’re sooo sorryyy.  It only happens to us occasionally.  We wish you didn’t kno that kind of pain. {{{hugs}}} ifn o.k., Anita Yes soemtimes we feel so bad we can’t do anything.] beautys.

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Awww Beauty, we’re sooo sorryyy.  It only happens to us occasionally.  We wish you didn’t kno that kind of pain. {{{hugs}}} ifn o.k., Anita – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Yes soemtimes we feel so bad we can’t do anything.] beautys.

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Awww Thank you, Beauty for writing an for understandin how much it hurts to see other pepl hurt.   We want better for you too, my frend. (((hugs))) ifn o.k. Anita – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We think soemtism seing pain of others hurts so much more than having own – and yours tory sasy that – we so sorry = want better for you – beautys.

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Anita – Not only does this not cause offense, it profoundly moves me.  Thank you for putting those thoughts into words.  I want to save them so as to be able to read them in many later times. Wishing you much the best – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you Beauty for your kind answer. So very glad that you have moved beyond the emotional pain (mostly) in terms of being able to function. Yes, we have moved thru the emotional pain except for occassionally.  At the same time we have a great respect for those who’ve had a lot more pain than us.  We are well aware that there are great sa*nts among our people who’ve borne far more in their lives than we’d ever think possible.  We hold those with this vast store of pain in great respect in our hearts and minds.  Our own suffering has been but a little~enuf to let us know a fraction of how great that suffering can be.  For us it is a privilege to do whatever we can to support and encourage those among us who are trying to heal not only their own lives but this planet as well.  We truly believe that everytime a Survivor heals some of the pain in their own life that it lifts a little of the suffering out of this planet as well.  That is just our philosophy and we hope it doesn’t cause you any distress. Sendin {{{hugs}}}ifn o.k. N comforts. In frendship, Anita

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Thank you Beauty for your kind answer. So very glad that you have moved beyond the emotional pain (mostly) in terms of being able to function.

Yes, we have moved thru the emotional pain except for occassionally.  At the same time we have a great respect for those who’ve had a lot more pain than us.  We are well aware that there are great sa*nts among our people who’ve borne far more in their lives than we’d ever think possible.  We hold those with this vast store of pain in great respect in our hearts and minds.  Our own suffering has been but a little~enuf to let us know a fraction of how great that suffering can be.  For us it is a privilege to do whatever we can to support and encourage those among us who are trying to heal not only their own lives but this planet as well.  We truly believe that everytime a Survivor heals some of the pain in their own life that it lifts a little of the suffering out of this planet as well.  That is just our philosophy and we hope it doesn’t cause you any distress. Sendin {{{hugs}}}ifn o.k. N comforts. In frendship, Anita

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I’m not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask in this newsgroup, but I have always been curious..

Re: the s*ap and the did character. Yeah, I’ve seen it and I think she does a decent job. Actually as an actress she does an incredible job. As for the portrayal, that is difficult to say exactly, because each of us expresses our did differently. I believe tptb on the show try and stay current with the newest information. Curiosity: why do you ask? Is you did? (giggle) or just curious? Eve

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<<Curiosity: why do you ask? Is you did? (giggle) or just curious? Hi, I started watching O*e Li*e to L*ve in 95 because of a storyline with this character. I found it very fascinating and I became interested in D*D. On the show, this had been a recurring problem for the character for 30 years, but it was only recently explored in depth (ie… the cause..) They just began a new storyline about it and I was just curious to here opinions from those who actually live with it. Anyway, thanks for responding:)

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Wow!  I had no idea that there is a character dxed with DID on a soap.  I never watch them, except for E] R. <snicker     I don’t mind your question and I’m interested in seeing any answers if anybody here has seen this show.     Something we do at this ng is to splat stuff like titles of t.v. shows and movies and famous people etc. to keep search engines that hunt for those topics from bringing people who might pose triggery hazards to us into our arena.  I’ll add them to your post so you can get the idea. trill p.s.  don’t forget to scroll down and look at my edit job.  embies recently reposted a bunch of important posts on our asd etiquette and how we conduct ourselves otherwise that might help you enter into our conversations.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask in this newsgroup, but I have always been curious.. Have any of you ever seen the soap On* Lif* To Liv*(e). I am asking particularly about the character of V*ki/N*ki(i)/Je*n(a)/etc… and her DID.. Do and you of you find it realistic.. if so, why…if not, why?? Thanks and I apologize if I offended anyone

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I’m not sure if this is an appropriate question to ask in this newsgroup, but I have always been curious.. Have any of you ever seen the soap One Life To Live. I am asking particularly about the character of Viki/Niki/Jean/etc… and her DID.. Do and you of you find it realistic.. if so, why…if not, why?? Thanks and I apologize if I offended anyone

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spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly.

Did yuo reed the on i rote? I am sory i didnt’ spell good that day. We are beeng confosed in side from terpy. Jamie My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message?

Jill tells you this be loe but I now waht disosheashun meens (jill readed the wurds to me yuo rote) from terpy. it meens we live in a bodey and we have to help each other out to be happy and it is from bad things tat happind be for. it meens we go in side and are sleeping and anuther one dos out side thnigs som time. I dont’ now what alt meens and is support that we dont’ fall downe? Anna I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads.

I dont’ like windows. I dont’ use it and I use the computer a lot. I use dos and I play games. It is eesy. Butch T.L.

Good question! There are actually two separate answers to this (don’t worry, they are both from me, Jill *grin*) First, I work with kids of all sorts. I’ve worked with kids as young as three and also kids with _severe_ developmental disabilities (ie. mental retardation). It is relatively easy to teach a kid who has the motor coordination of a two year old to turn on a computer and monitor. It is even easier with computers (like mine) that are left on at all times so that all you have to do is turn on the monitor. As for the actual use of the computer, all I have to do is write a shell program that incorporates everything I want the kid to be able to do. I teach the kid to click on an icon or type a single word (that is posted on the side of the monitor so the kid just copies the word, letter for letter). Again, I’ve taught kids as young as three and kids with the cognitive functioning level of a two year old to do this, in real. I believe the reason most adults have trouble with computers is because they are trying to understand the ‘how’ and the ‘why’ and not just follow the simple 1-2-3 step approach, and because they are trying to figure out much more than the simple steps of a) turn on monitor b) type letters xyz c) click on the smiley face icon In fact, when I first started here I was pretty net illiterate so my SO (who is a serious computer guru) set it up for me pretty much just like this. I log on, type trn and *bingo* the rest is easy. I use ‘f’ or ‘F’ to set up news replies and ‘r’ or ‘R’ to reply in mail. That’s as complicated as it gets. I’m sure I could teach any external seven year old to follow these steps Now to the issue of inside kids (alters) typing and reading here. This system has three kids around the age of seven. All of them can read at about the second grade level. All of them can spell at about the second grade level. My nephew (in real) ‘writes’ me email letters. His spelling is _terrible_ but I can figure it out by guess and luck (he is four). The second graders I work with spell about as well as my inside kids. Also, we are co-aware inside which means the inside kids can always ask an adult for help spelling or typing. We are also co-conscious at times so they could get the adults to do the typing too if they asked. However, more than any of this, inside kids (alters) aren’t _real_ kids in the outside sense.  This is a common mistake people make in trying to understand multiplicity. I have never believed that the inside kids were _real_ kids who just happen to live inside my body. I’ve always known they were different in some way (well at least since high school. When I was five and six I really did think Anna was another girl just like me and that when I was asleep she was in charge of the body, and when I awake she was sleeping.) Therapists who don’t understand multiplicity well enough make this mistake often. This is where the idea of alters ‘dying’ due to integration came from. Also, this is why some therapists (and other outside people) make the mistake of treating each alter as a totally separate individual with no connection to the others in the system. Inside kids are made of very complex unconscious processes and so they are _not_ ‘real’ in the sense that an outside kid is. My inside kids are very knowledgeable about some things no seven year old would know about, and are equally naive about some things that probably _all_ seven year olds would know about. This is just part of the whole DID experience. For example, one of my inside kids has used a chainsaw for real. Obviously to do that she had to use the outside body (which is that of a thirty four year old female). No matter how much the body feels to the _kid_ like a seven year old body, in external reality it _is_ an adult’s body. There is no way I would let an outside seven year old use that chainsaw, it is _much_ too heavy for one thing. However, the seven year old alter had the benefit of adult muscles to make it safer, and possible. From what I know of dissociation, the more dissociated the system is the less this would work. I am sure there are multiples in this group who have inside kids who are incapable of using the computer, or are no more capable than an external kid of the same age. These inside kids probably don’t have the advantage of getting inside help as they are too cut off from each other inside. Insiders (kids or adults) are separate _personalities_ not separate _persons_. This is a difficult difference to explain, and it doesn’t mean that each insider isn’t real and doesn’t exist. It helps to realize that as a separate personality, each insider is cut off from the others just like you are cut off from me (boundaries in other words), while at the same time as a personality sharing a body with other personalities, each insider is not complete as a specific _person_ like you are from me (the fragmentation of the self doesn’t result in different _selves_ but different aspects of a self that have developed separately from each other, and have erected ‘walls’ between these alters over time). I hope this helps! Rainbow Colors (Jill, with input from the kids) —      I choose to post non-anon because my abusers are afraid.      They would have to admit something happened in order to      confront me; this they will never do. They are the only      people who will be upset if they know who I am, and they      are too afraid to admit to what they did.                        Black of Rainbow Colors

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L. Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs have gotten everything already set up for them!

Yeah, but even IF that were true, the posts that are supposed to be made by "littles", are done in baby-talk. A kid starts kindergarten at 5 years old, and then just starts to learn the alphabet, and I don’t think actual reading and writing start until 1st grade. A five year old kid is way past talking in the baby-talk these supposed "littles" are talking in. The baby talk they do sounds like a kid of about 2 or 3, maybe 4. At that age they wouldn’t know letters, or how to form words, let alone how to type on a keyboard (even one key at a time), and much less, how to work a computer. It looks to me like "BIGS" trying to appear little.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L.

T.L. when my child parts come out they usually have an older alter with them. These older alters know how to work the computer, it is our lifeline with the outside. And if these child parts post and dont know a word or how to spell the others help them. but we try not to take away their tone of voice, cause that takes away their personality, which is special. if my child parts came out, when the computer was not on, they would not know how to use it. if they post, its cause they came out, when an older part was already online. I used to wonder this same question, that you are asking, in my early dxdenial. so it helps me to write this out so I can learn from it as well. Annabelle of AllofDark (this is just how it is for my system , could probably be totally different to others) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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T.L.,

Why do you want to know how our littles get here and why do you care? Laura L & Co. (snip of your post)

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much of the answer that we were going to write, so we can be lazy and just add to this post   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly.

btw, almost no one in the literature (and no one here) uses the term alter ego.  that is a *very* old term.  currently, the terms used in the professional literature are "alter" or "personality state" for parts that are split off enough to maintain a separate sense of identity and experiences.  there is also "ego state" which refers to a dissociated part that is experienced as only partially separated, so that the sense is that there is only one self, but there are times the person feels very different from other times (like feeling like one becomes really young, but still remaining the same person you are when you are adult). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did yuo reed the on i rote? I am sory i didnt’ spell good that day. We are beeng confosed in side from terpy. Jamie My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? Jill tells you this be loe but I now waht disosheashun meens (jill readed the wurds to me yuo rote) from terpy. it meens we live in a bodey and we have to help each other out to be happy and it is from bad things tat happind be for. it meens we go in side and are sleeping and anuther one dos out side thnigs som time. I dont’ now what alt meens and is support that we dont’ fall downe? Anna I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. I dont’ like windows. I dont’ use it and I use the computer a lot. I use dos and I play games. It is eesy. Butch T.L. Good question! There are actually two separate answers to this (don’t worry, they are both from me, Jill *grin*) First, I work with kids of all sorts. I’ve worked with kids as young as three and also kids with _severe_ developmental disabilities (ie. mental retardation). It is relatively easy to teach a kid who has the motor coordination of a two year old to turn on a computer and monitor. It is even easier with computers (like mine) that are left on at all times so that all you have to do is turn on the monitor. As for the actual use of the computer, all I have to do is write a shell program that incorporates everything I want the kid to be able to do. I teach the kid to click on an icon or type a single word (that is posted on the side of the monitor so the kid just copies the word, letter for letter). Again, I’ve taught kids as young as three and kids with the cognitive functioning level of a two year old to do this, in real. I believe the reason most adults have trouble with computers is because they are trying to understand the ‘how’ and the ‘why’ and not just follow the simple 1-2-3 step approach, and because they are trying to figure out much more than the simple steps of a) turn on monitor b) type letters xyz c) click on the smiley face icon In fact, when I first started here I was pretty net illiterate so my SO (who is a serious computer guru) set it up for me pretty much just like this. I log on, type trn and *bingo* the rest is easy. I use ‘f’ or ‘F’ to set up news replies and ‘r’ or ‘R’ to reply in mail. That’s as complicated as it gets. I’m sure I could teach any external seven year old to follow these steps

there is also the possibility of switching while reading posts.  or someone who knows how to do the task helping the other to do it.  I think that the question assumes that alters can not be in communication with one another, which is a fallacy.  lots of times, there is lots of inner communication between alters, copresence, coconsciousness…things like that.  actually, in general, I think that it is only the host (or presenter) that is usually completely oblivious to the fact that there are others inside.  there is usually some sort of alliance network, where folks can talk directly to at least some of the others.  so the kids are rarely totally isolated. Now to the issue of inside kids (alters) typing and reading here. This system has three kids around the age of seven. All of them can read at about the second grade level. All of them can spell at about the second grade level. My nephew (in real) ‘writes’ me email letters. His spelling is _terrible_ but I can figure it out by guess and luck (he is four). The second graders I work with spell about as well as my inside kids. Also, we are co-aware inside which means the inside kids can always ask an adult for help spelling or typing. We are also co-conscious at times so they could get the adults to do the typing too if they asked.

yup.  mine, however, are *stubborn*.  they want to do it by themselves, so even if someone tries to help with the spelling, they ignore the suggestions.  *shrug*   However, more than any of this, inside kids (alters) aren’t _real_ kids in the outside sense.  This is a common mistake people make in trying to understand multiplicity. I have never believed that the inside kids were _real_ kids who just happen to live inside my body.

absolutely.  a five-year-old little is not the same as a five-year-old outside child, nor the same as a retarded adult with the mental age of five.  a five-year-old little will *process* like a five-year-old child, meaning that the thinking *style* will be the same, and that feelings will be experienced and understood the same.  but no five-year-old outside child has more than five years of experienced events and learning opportunities, which all five-year-old littles *do* have.  so the fund of information is going to be larger.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve always known they were different in some way (well at least since high school. When I was five and six I really did think Anna was another girl just like me and that when I was asleep she was in charge of the body, and when I awake she was sleeping.) Therapists who don’t understand multiplicity well enough make this mistake often. This is where the idea of alters ‘dying’ due to integration came from. Also, this is why some therapists (and other outside people) make the mistake of treating each alter as a totally separate individual with no connection to the others in the system. Inside kids are made of very complex unconscious processes and so they are _not_ ‘real’ in the sense that an outside kid is. My inside kids are very knowledgeable about some things no seven year old would know about, and are equally naive about some things that probably _all_ seven year olds would know about. This is just part of the whole DID experience. For example, one of my inside kids has used a chainsaw for real. Obviously to do that she had to use the outside body (which is that of a thirty four year old female). No matter how much the body feels to the _kid_ like a seven year old body, in external reality it _is_ an adult’s body. There is no way I would let an outside seven year old use that chainsaw, it is _much_ too heavy for one thing. However, the seven year old alter had the benefit of adult muscles to make it safer, and possible.

yup.  and *all* of the popular media accounts of multiplicity have vastly oversimplified the experience.  for one, it is almost impossible to write a book or a story that is not somehow linear…and dissociation is *not* a linear experience. From what I know of dissociation, the more dissociated the system is the less this would work. I am sure there are multiples in this group who have inside kids who are incapable of using the computer, or are no more capable than an external kid of the same age. These inside kids probably don’t have the advantage of getting inside help as they are too cut off from each other inside.

and as people work on healing, the levels of internal communication increase.  that is the *purpose* Insiders (kids or adults) are separate _personalities_ not separate _persons_. This is a difficult difference to explain, and it doesn’t mean that each insider isn’t real and doesn’t exist. It helps to realize that as a separate personality, each insider is cut off from the others just like you are cut off from me (boundaries in other words), while at the same time as a personality sharing a body with other personalities, each insider is not complete as a specific _person_ like you are from me (the fragmentation of the self doesn’t result in different _selves_ but different aspects of a self that have developed separately from each other, and have erected ‘walls’ between these alters over time). I hope this helps! Rainbow Colors (Jill, with input from the kids)

I’m going to speak to the challenge underlying this question.  beyond the explanations above that point out the fact that what happens when a little posts is plausible, tl has also (in another post) expressed skepticism based on "rarity" of did.  there has been research suggesting that DID occurs in about 1% of the population (I think this was Colin Ross’ work). 1% is pretty rare (that’s about the incidence of schizophrenia), but let’s assume that that … read more »

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L.

Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs have gotten everything already set up for them!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L.

I would like to respond to what you said, but first I need to ask you a question.  Are sincerely interested in answers to your questions, or are they intended to be provocative and hurtful?  Just in case they are partially sincere I will respond. The "alter egos" as you call them comprise a System which is the person as a whole.  At different stages of healing there is different cooperation levels in the System between alters.  When one can not speak, another may help by speaking for them, when a little needs to express themselves on the internet there may be several alters involved in assisting them to get to the place where they can type in what they want.  In my System, when a little wants to express themselves, they usually write in big letters, but most of the spelling and grammer is correct, not because they know how to do that themselves, but because others correct them as they go, not necessarily just to be helpful, but mostly out of being afraid others will think we are ignorant if they don’t– so it’s a "selfish" motive, but it still helps communication. Cari — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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    spoiler   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that   they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that   they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly.   My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t   remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to   turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and   how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet,   where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find   the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what   the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and   send a message?   I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all   that through their heads.     T.L.  Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs  have gotten everything already set up for them!  actually, in my case, that’s exactly the situation. if lilly wants to say something, i help her. i’ll set up the computer, dial in, log on, get into news, and set up the post. then i’ll let her type. hope this helps, willow

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Yeah, but even IF that were true, the posts that are supposed to be made by "littles", are done in baby-talk. A kid starts kindergarten at 5 years old, and then just starts to learn the alphabet, and I don’t think actual reading and writing start until 1st grade. A five year old kid is way past talking in the baby-talk these supposed "littles" are talking in. The baby talk they do sounds like a kid of about 2 or 3, maybe 4. At that age they wouldn’t know letters, or how to form words, let alone how to type on a keyboard (even one key at a time), and much less, how to work a computer. It looks to me like "BIGS" trying to appear little.

i don’t know about you, but i learned to read by the age of three. by age 5 i could read and write at a high school level.  so lilly, who is about 3 years old, reads and writes just fine, if a bit slowly. she doesn’t baby talk, she mis-spells a lot (but then again so do i), and she makes quite a few typos. hope this helps, willow .

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * [...] My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and [...] There are a number of answers for us, I’m sure some other multiples have different answers Sometimes an older alter will help them post. That’s what happens mostly for us, Nita or I do all the techie stuff and then let the littles actually write the posts. Sometimes the littles will take over when most of the techie stuff is already done.

<snip         Also I wanted to say that I am very good at video games. My nephew also is good at these he is three. He plugs into tv turns on Sega this stuff is not hard. Computer to me is just video game. This day I am being monitored because my lady does not want me to get hurt, so my spelling is better than usual. I am very good at sonic the hedgehog. I mention this because everybody acts like this is hard " littles need supervision" type stuff. I can post how I like. When I talk to people that arent in a computer I have to be watched because I can weird out grownups or look dumb. I am not mean though.         munkses of NOJ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * Some posts are written like a little child wrote them. I suppose that they are alter egos (LITTLES), that have come out and are so young that they don’t know how to spell or talk correctly. My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and how to open it, then how to logon to the internet, then once on internet, where to find the newsreader, how to open it, from there, where to find the correct newsgroup (alt.support.dissociation, if they even know what the word means), then how to open the newsgroup, then how to post and send a message? I’ve seen adults who were trying to learn Windows not be able to get all that through their heads. T.L. Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs have gotten everything already set up for them!

        Yup. Thats the most convenient for me.         You act like you making fun, but you got lotta littles too I seen them peekin hallo hallo.         I’m not talkin to the mean lady just saying hello to littles. What names littles? How old? I am usually three or five an they call us munkses. I wrote once about my room caught fire and lady made fun, I dont hate you for it, she is in denial. I understand that. It is hard when bigs are in denial. I hope they let you see tv and eat nice food. One thing I like is going to Walgreens and buying little cars. Matchbox cars.  I hope you are well today.         NOJ

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – —–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * * [...] My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and [...] There are a number of answers for us, I’m sure some other multiples have different answers Sometimes an older alter will help them post. That’s what happens mostly for us, Nita or I do all the techie stuff and then let the littles actually write the posts. Sometimes the littles will take over when most of the techie stuff is already done. For some of our littles they’re groups of alters of varying ages, so some of the older members of the group can do some of the more difficult things. Some littles can spell better than they choose to; for them spelling badly is a "loud" way of saying "We’re littles so you gotta treat us like littles!". One of the effects of childhood abuse is almost always to make children "grow up" too fast, instead of having the safety and freedom to be kids they have to take responsibility for all kinds of things children wouldn’t normal need to do. For them it is important to be given the room to be care-free children (who can afford to spell badly and not get punished for it) as it was stolen from them as children. Littles, like all kids, are pretty good at watching and mimicing what they saw. I think if you went and looked at outside children with a lot of access and exposure to this technology you’d see them displaying all the same behaviours. Many 5 and 6 year old are competent computer users while their spelling is not yet adult-like. Anita MPD/Dissociation book list http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~anita/dissociation.html —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQB1AwUBMpjH/rrT0T7yLTnVAQEgrwL+K9IOJ8upPYSoIhSBbdRNj5cUfLhP1p0G eK8fH/r1/HqQyvBvqp7tX13fEw1Q9usXaVUSRrNtJu3q4n/KVvxHOXkLKYZ3GiAt /OFTiGHG4YgLnUDCa4irQgc0CGYsSy4q =vr+i —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

That was a good explanation, Anita.  We like it!  for us, its like ther’s a big person adult who writes what we have to say, but we use the keyboard,too.  sometimes spelling is bad, sometimes spelling is good.  like now it’s good cause the grownup (who is it?) helping is not sleeping.  Little Ann

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Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs have gotten everything already set up for them!        Yup. Thats the most convenient for me.        You act like you making fun, but you got lotta littles too I seen them peekin hallo hallo.        I’m not talkin to the mean lady just saying hello to littles. What names littles? How old? I am usually three or five an they call us munkses. I wrote once about my room caught fire and lady made fun, I dont hate you for it, she is in denial. I understand that. It is hard when bigs are in denial. I hope they let you see tv and eat nice food. One thing I like is going to Walgreens and buying little cars. Matchbox cars.  I hope you are well today.        NOJ

Hi Jackie, I tried emailing this to you but my email isn’t working, so I’m posting it. Anyway, maybe someone else can answer my question too. How do you know if you have littles? What are the signs? If they are connected and communicating between themselves, how do you know it’s not just one person talking inside themselves? If I do have them, I’m scared to let them show themselves. But I’m not certain that I have them. I’m sorry I was mean to your littles. T.L.

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—–BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE—– spoiler * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[...] My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and

[...] There are a number of answers for us, I’m sure some other multiples have different answers Sometimes an older alter will help them post. That’s what happens mostly for us, Nita or I do all the techie stuff and then let the littles actually write the posts. Sometimes the littles will take over when most of the techie stuff is already done. For some of our littles they’re groups of alters of varying ages, so some of the older members of the group can do some of the more difficult things. Some littles can spell better than they choose to; for them spelling badly is a "loud" way of saying "We’re littles so you gotta treat us like littles!". One of the effects of childhood abuse is almost always to make children "grow up" too fast, instead of having the safety and freedom to be kids they have to take responsibility for all kinds of things children wouldn’t normal need to do. For them it is important to be given the room to be care-free children (who can afford to spell badly and not get punished for it) as it was stolen from them as children. Littles, like all kids, are pretty good at watching and mimicing what they saw. I think if you went and looked at outside children with a lot of access and exposure to this technology you’d see them displaying all the same behaviours. Many 5 and 6 year old are competent computer users while their spelling is not yet adult-like. Anita MPD/Dissociation book list http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~anita/dissociation.html —–BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE—– Version: 2.6 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQB1AwUBMpjH/rrT0T7yLTnVAQEgrwL+K9IOJ8upPYSoIhSBbdRNj5cUfLhP1p0G eK8fH/r1/HqQyvBvqp7tX13fEw1Q9usXaVUSRrNtJu3q4n/KVvxHOXkLKYZ3GiAt /OFTiGHG4YgLnUDCa4irQgc0CGYsSy4q =vr+i —–END PGP SIGNATURE—–

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i don’t know about you, but i learned to read by the age of three.

wow. We’re gonna share one of our biggest secrets: they taught us read and write at the age of 2 1/2. And we always were ashamed of it and didn’t tell in kindergarten… we still got some letters of this time… can’t look at them without getting severe headaches… by age 5 i could read and write at a high school level.  so lilly, who is about 3 years old, reads and writes just fine, if a bit slowly. she doesn’t baby talk, she mis-spells a lot (but then again so do i), and she makes quite a few typos. hope this helps, willow

thank you for sharing this, willow. Being able to read and write at such an early age always made us feel different and it felt like a "secret knowledge" and inappropriate, and for sure it was something other people mustn’t find out… Chiquitita —           Some things are melting now           what’s it gonna take till my baby’s all right? — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Where are all the people who dissociate? They are lurking of course! *waves and smiles to all the lurkers!:)* And I assume you are talking about only physical bodies in your count right? Otherwise I’m sure we have well over 1000 people posting here *grin* Heck, there were times when it felt like my system alone added up to 1000!! Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      I choose to post non-anon because my abusers are afraid.      They would have to admit something happened in order to      confront me; this they will never do. They are the only      people who will be upset if they know who I am, and they      are too afraid to admit to what they did.                        Black of Rainbow Colors

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : i don’t know about you, but i learned to read by the age of three. : wow. We’re gonna share one of our biggest secrets: they taught us read : and write at the age of 2 1/2. And we always were ashamed of it and : didn’t tell in kindergarten… we still got some letters of this time… : can’t look at them without getting severe headaches… : : by age 5 i could read and write at a high school level.  so lilly, : who is about 3 years old, reads and writes just fine, if a bit slowly. : she doesn’t baby talk, she mis-spells a lot (but then again so do i), : and she makes quite a few typos. [...] : willow :

I also learned to read and write before kindergarten. Multiplication tables and other stuff. It was very hard. My kindergarten teach was very unhappy with me. And I was restless. I remember being punished for it. Thanks for sharing this I thought I was the only one. Some parts though dont write well and thats always confused me. Bree – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : thank you for sharing this, willow. Being able to read and write at such : an early age always made us feel different and it felt like a "secret : knowledge" and inappropriate, and for sure it was something other people : mustn’t find out… : Chiquitita This came up before (boy, I’m switching a lot this morning, keep forgetting what I’m writing mid-sentence) but I think a lot of people here now weren’t around then, early this year. It seems that lots of dissociative people learned to read/write very early.  I was reading at 3-4.  There’s a photo of me at about 3 1/2, totally lost in a book. My daughter learned to read just as early, so this may be part of the genetic tendency to dissociation that some writers talk about.  (She also shows a mild tendency to dissociate, space out, etc. but I’m trying to avoid anything that would make that worse.)   — C —                          Pope C the Anonymous                  "Candide is dead.  Pollyanna shot him."                             — Babs Woods

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My question is, if they are alter egos and so young, or that they don’t remember or know how to spell or talk, how is it that they know how to turn on the computer and monitor, know where the dial up program is and [...] There are a number of answers for us, I’m sure some other multiples have different answers Sometimes an older alter will help them post. That’s what happens mostly for us, Nita or I do all the techie stuff and then let the littles actually write the posts. Sometimes the littles will take over when most of the techie stuff is already done. For some of our littles they’re groups of alters of varying ages, so some of the older members of the group can do some of the more difficult things. I think for there to be that much conscious control over the whole thing and that much connection between the different personalities, that it points to the fact that they are not seperate personalities. "Split personality" as they used to call it, means SPLIT, not CONNECTED. To be connected and communicating, means they are one. (in my opinion). Some littles can spell better than they choose to; for them spelling badly is a "loud" way of saying "We’re littles so you gotta treat us like littles!". One of the effects of childhood abuse is almost always to make children "grow up" too fast, instead of having the safety and freedom to be kids they have to take responsibility for all kinds of things children wouldn’t normal need to do. For them it is important to be given the room to be care-free children (who can afford to spell badly and not get punished for it) as it was stolen from them as children. Littles, like all kids, are pretty good at watching and mimicing what they saw. I think if you went and looked at outside children with a lot of access and exposure to this technology you’d see them displaying all the same behaviours. Many 5 and 6 year old are competent computer users while their spelling is not yet adult-like. Anita I think if all these "littles" are so well connected, that they must all be one person. That if they are communicating between themselves, that it is just the person talking within themselves, and not seperate selves. I think to actually have an alter personality it would have to be totally seperate from the others. I think that people have different feelings, moods and emotions at different times, and this thing with the "littles", is just putting names on your moods and feelings. You might feel like a child sometimes, so do I, but I think that is YOU  feeling like a child, not a different entity. It obviously is you, and not a seperate entity, that needs a different name, because, after all, there is only one body and one brain present. I think people that have been abused and not given the chance to be children, or not given enough attention as children, probably have low self esteem and feel they are unworthy of the attention they need. That they might feel unworthy of the attention because they are adults, or because they don’t think they deserve the attention, because of the low self esteem caused by their abuse. I think they feel that by showing another personality, that of a child, that they will get that attention. Maybe it’s not a conscious thing. This is what I personally think. Of course, I know I could be wrong, but it looks that way to me. T.L. Hi, I want to introduce myself to the group. My name is Jennifer. I’m T.L.’s friend and she posted from my place. So don’t get mad and bombard me with mail for her. <g

        T.L wantsa write stuff alla time but nobody allowed talk back or email. I dont think tnis is responsible." oh she talk here but nobody respond." I gonna respond seperate from j letter. I’ve been lurking here for awhile. I posted one time before. I had asked what a spoiler was.

        Did you find out? T.L. told me about this group and I’ve been reading the posts and feel like I can relate to some of the people here.

        This is good thank you T.L. I’ve been in therapy too and a friend of mine who thinks she has alters wonders if I do too, but I’m not sure.

        If you real mutlpie you never be sure its the sign:) Anyway, I just wanted to say hi to the people here.

        Hi, are you nice? Jennifer

Nation of Jackie this account borrowed from jcash

Response:

Maybe the "littles" conveniently wait to come out, only, after the bigs have gotten everything already set up for them!        Yup. Thats the most convenient for me.        You act like you making fun, but you got lotta littles too I seen them peekin hallo hallo.        I’m not talkin to the mean lady just saying hello to littles. What names littles? How old? I am usually three or five an they call us munkses. I wrote once about my room caught fire and lady made fun, I dont hate you for it, she is in denial. I understand that. It is hard when bigs are in denial. I hope they let you see tv and eat nice food. One thing I like is going to Walgreens and buying little cars. Matchbox cars.  I hope you are well today.        NOJ Hi Jackie,

        Hallo! I tried emailing this to you but my email isn’t working, so I’m posting it. Anyway, maybe someone else can answer my question too.

        Okay. I hope your email starts working. I wont email you unless you want me to because this is very personal space to go in somebody mailbox. What kind server you got? Mebbe somebody can help you fix? How do you know if you have littles?

        We didnt know forever then one day we met a multoiple lady and she was sooooooooooooo like us that we went hmmmmmmmm. And another freind named Tweety ( is codename ) said no you cannot be mp and she argued and argued and this made it hard because I cannot think about difficult thing if other lady all time callin me up and presenting new thing why it cannot be. Alla time very persistent an finally our lady inside ( we got a bunch we call this lady Lady an another lady we call Mom but we dont say that to asd cause moms are tricky here anyway Im waay off track segue:) finally our lady inside was at a dinner with Tweety freind and said "Look this is very hard for me! I do not want this to be true! Its not a matter of me wanting to be MP or special or following trend this is me askin what is truth and if answer is Yes than that means I dont know myself and I thought I did so Im totally humiliated and upset and fearful so quit arguing my head okay? "          Anyway our freind Tweety finally said that she was so persistent because if *I* was then what about *her* cause we so similar. *Also* she also thought she was mp because of freind and had finally decided No, and she thought " I will spare her my struggle because shes like me so answer is: No just like me and she better not argue cause I gotta big stake in this." Stake in my heart more like:) So I unnerstan this whole issue very edgy upsetting an I unnerstan you confused upset and angry too prolly. Very messy stuff. Very hard.   What are the signs?

         Do you become younger person who does not know stuff you know? This is basic issue, but is very complicated.  Also just like our lady she did not *want* this so she very skeptical and also she sometimes thinks shes me just fooling but is not true.         Just not true.         The truth is we are alters in a multiple system, and we can switch very quickly indeed. I spent many years covering up for the munkses the boys the dogs etc, thinking up new ways to explain away my behavior. It was hella hard for me to admit. Its been a year since I figured out my diagnosis. A whole year, and until recently I still believed in my MomLady heart that I was the whole enchilada. I have no idea if you are mp or dd or anything. I cannot diagnose you. There are few definite "signs", and those that exist can be covered up even from yourself.           For what its worth munks had been talking in her own voice to my husband for three years before we discovered I was MP. He didnt know what she was, she called him "dudie" ( I dont! ) and she had her own definite personality. I thought it was…I dunno, babytalk? I wasnt very concious of it. After I mentioned my possibly being MP he said " You know its the only thing that fits".         For years Id come into his room and weep over my own behavior and say " this isnt me! Tell me you know I am not like this" and he’d say " I know, I dont know what it is, but its true." And then I’d say " Theres something going on with me right? Its not just me imagining" and he’d says " Yes, I dont know what." I knew something was weird, if I just knew what my diagnosis was I’d fix it.          Now I know. And it was absolutely disconcerting, humiliating, and scary to even process. If they are connected and communicating between themselves, how do you know it’s not just one person talking inside themselves?

        I asked a couple therps about this. Supposedly "normal" people do not hold conversations inside themselves. Thats the difference. When I wander around going " "Whered you put the keys Jackie? I dont know and quit asking cause I dont even wanna be up!" This is a *conversation*. Normals supposedly have to *try* in order to hold conversations with themselves, and if you find yourself in a heated argument, I’d say thats something to look at.          What I did was I just proceeded on the assumption that I had alters, and I tried to make it safe for them to communicate. And they did. And they are *so* not me! Thats what convinced me, was reading stuff I’d never ever write! Wouldnt be caught dead in them clothes, with that freind, etc. If I do have them, I’m scared to let them show themselves.

        Me too man:) It was dang brave to admit that. But I’m not certain that I have them.

        Even if you did have alters, there are people who do not have littles. I’m sorry munks said that you did, she was talking what she thinks, which is risky and not same as talk what I know. Im sorry I did that. I’m sorry I was mean to your littles.

        Really??? No way! For real? I cant tell if you mean it or you just setting rug under me to pull out? If you really mean it we cautiosly sayin wow and thank you. Wow. Neat. I would like it if we were not enemies that would be neat. I’m not allowed get hopes up cause they say I gotta be protected ( but they creepin up anyways ) so we anticipate response. T.L.

Nation of Jackie this account borrowed from jcash

Response:

T.L. I’m going to take a chance and assume that ths is a legit. question and not simply an occasion to provoke.  There are a couple of possibilities about how "littles" can maneuver around the computer when they can’t spell or talk properly.  First, my 4 year old niece can work the computer.  She can’t read or write, but she knows certain programs, how to get into them, how to work them, play games, color, etc.  She only has to be shown once and she has it down.  Well, many of us have co-consciousness, where it is possible for the "adult" to be out with or close beside the "little one."  The adult can show the "little" how to work the computer, then let the younger part write as it can, in whatever way it best expresses itself.  I’ve done that in journaling on the computer, where I’m very competent in getting into the right program and then the younger part writes with no punctuation, poor spelling, etc.  If I wanted, I could go back and correct all those mistakes, but to do so would take away from the efforts of that young part.  Alters are not always completely closed off from one another — mine are often aware of when others are out and of what they are saying and doing.  Sometimes the adult me observes what is going on but couldn’t interfer even if she wanted to.   At other times I’m out with the little, reading to it, so that both of us are out together.  This may be more than you wanted to know.  suffice it to say that the apparent discrepency between a "little" who knows how to work the computer is not a contradiction but is simply part of the reality we live in. Land of the Lost — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -T.L. I’m going to take a chance and assume that ths is a legit. question and not simply an occasion to provoke.  There are a couple of possibilities about how "littles" can maneuver around the computer when they can’t spell or talk properly.  First, my 4 year old niece can work the computer.  She can’t read or write, but she knows certain programs, how to get into them, how to work them, play games, color, etc.  She only has to be shown once and she has it down.  Well, many of us have co-consciousness, where it is possible for the "adult" to be out with or close beside the "little one."  The adult can show the "little" how to work the computer, then let the younger part write as it can, in whatever way it best expresses itself.  I’ve done that in journaling on the computer, where I’m very competent in getting into the right program and then the younger part writes with no punctuation, poor spelling, etc.  If I wanted, I could go back and correct all those mistakes, but to do so would take away from the efforts of that young part.  Alters are not always completely closed off from one another — mine are often aware of when others are out and of what they are saying and doing.  Sometimes the adult me observes what is going on but couldn’t interfer even if she wanted to. At other times I’m out with the little, reading to it, so that both of us are out together.  This may be more than you wanted to know.  suffice it to say that the apparent discrepency between a "little" who knows how to work the computer is not a contradiction but is simply part of the reality we live in. Land of the Lost

No, I didn’t ask this question to provoke. It is an honest question. My next question is: If the alters communicate and are connected, how are they considered different personalities? Isn’t it just you naming different moods and emotions? If you have that much control over the situation, to be able to set up the program for them and help them along, aren’t you the one actually in control? T.L.

Response:

Cari Grace, Thank you for your explanation.  It fits in so well with what I know of myself, my system.  Yet sometimes I wonder if I’m making it all up.  Reading of other people’s experiences with their selves, and seeing how similar they are to my experiences, really helps validate both those experiences and myself as a multiple.   Land of the Lost — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

And yet another reply Im on AOL and we have a "heart" file called favorite places you just click on heart file then click on the fav. place you want to go Any kid could do that any time you find a site that you want to revisit. instead of trying to remember how you got there in the first place or the web address, you just click heart file and it asks you if you want  to add to your heart file None of my little kids have posted here that I know of, but a couple of them sure could if they wanted to however, I have kids who have trouble just talking, have no knowledge of alphabet, numbers etc and if they stay that way you won’t be hearing from them here The original question assumed to find this ng, would be very complicated Not so on my server once I had been there the first time ACESTAR

Response:

About the apparent baby talk.  It is not true that 5 year olds are way beyond baby talk.  It used to worry me that I had a number of 6 year old alters, some of whom spoke in ways that I thought were much younger.  then my sister’s kids turned 5 and 6, and guess what?  They still spoke in incomplete sentences, used poor grammar (especially for past tenses), and generally spoke in ways similar to my child parts.  and then I met some other kids of a similar age, and they too spoke in ways that were closer to baby talk than adult talk.  So it’s not "putting it on" for a little one to talk baby talk.  In fact, if the adult were pretending, she would do a much better job developmentally — at least I would have not used such primitive  language skills because I thought that 5 and 6 year olds were more sophisticated than they actually are. Land of the Lost — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation I AM SORRY IF i AM SOUNDING A LITTLE UNEDUCATED BUT ALOT OF THE PPL HERE TALK ABOUT "PERPS" COULD i ASK WHAT IS A "PERP" [Prev][Next]

I am sure someone has already explained, but I would like to add this note that was sent to me e-mail by a certain Ph.d.  I will not attatch their name in case it might make them uncomfortable being identified. Since this response I have curbed my using of the abbreviating therapist. I still do not guaruntee all of my writing free of this word, but I am truly trying to not offend anyone.  Not offending is a hard thing to accomplish here at asd. *Note by a currently licensed Ph.d.: *"But can I make a request? Please consider that "therp" is a little close to "perp" and that some therapists find that label is irritating and unfair. For myself, I have mostly gotten accustomed to viewing it as asd lingo, so I don’t have much of a reaction to it any more."

Response:

this is not ment to offend anyone just another way of dividing the letters of therapist to mean different things another way that therp not only could sound like perp but also therapist could be :     " the – rapist" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation I AM SORRY IF i AM SOUNDING A LITTLE UNEDUCATED BUT ALOT OF THE PPL HERE TALK ABOUT "PERPS" COULD i ASK WHAT IS A "PERP" [Prev][Next] I am sure someone has already explained, but I would like to add this note that was sent to me e-mail by a certain Ph.d.  I will not attatch their name in case it might make them uncomfortable being identified. Since this response I have curbed my using of the abbreviating therapist. I still do not guaruntee all of my writing free of this word, but I am truly trying to not offend anyone.  Not offending is a hard thing to accomplish here at asd. *Note by a currently licensed Ph.d.: *"But can I make a request? Please consider that "therp" is a little close to "perp" and that some therapists find that label is irritating and unfair. For myself, I have mostly gotten accustomed to viewing it as asd lingo, so I don’t have much of a reaction to it any more."

Response:

I am sure someone has already explained, but I would like to add this note that was sent to me e-mail by a certain Ph.d. [snip] *Note by a currently licensed Ph.d.: *"But can I make a request? Please consider that "therp" is a little close to "perp" and that some therapists find that label is irritating and unfair. For myself, I have mostly gotten accustomed to viewing it as asd lingo, so I don’t have much of a reaction to it any more."

Aw, c’mon. We know it sounds like perp. That’s why I like it. I thought therapists expected their clients to have these transference-based relationships with them. If we don’t call you something that reminds us of our parents and other significant ppl in our lives, how are we gonna openly acknowledge our transference? Do you want us to be less than honest about what’s going on? My only other transference is to be unavailable, both emotionally and physically. I don’t think that would work, unless you want to do phone therapy or cyber-therapy.  (Most therapists won’t and I think they have good reasons not to.) I feel a double bind here. This is a serious question: Do you want transference-based relationships with your clients or not? If so, I don’t see why you’d mind being called something that sounds like perp. I’d think you’d be relieved to have the opportunity to deal with it this directly. If you don’t want to have transference-based relationships with your clients, what other basis for a relationship with one’s therapist should there be (from a therapist’s point of view), since a therapist typically reveals very little personal info?  I don’t see that there’s much beyond transference (and counter-transference and our sorting out and working through both of them) in my relationship with my therapist. If I’m missing something, please let me know. I really like to understand other ppls’ point of view. I learn a lot that way.  e — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

posted and e-mailed     (I took off the x-no bc I don’t care if this part gets in Deja News. astri, if you’re reading, you may want to repost your post on this, bc I don’t care if it’s in Deja News since it has no personal stuff in it. Thanks for respecting my desire to not have my posts made easily accessible, though. Jill, FWIW, I think that you may be talking about classical transference, while astri and I are talking about the more modern view. I’m just guessing about this based upon a brief discussion of the two different views of transference in _Treating the Adult Survivor of Childhood Sexual Abuse_, J.M. Davies and M.G. Frawley, Basic Books (1994) and _Projective Identification & Psycho-therapeutic Technique, T.H. Ogden, Aronson (1993 reprint of 1982 original). I’ll quote Ogden, bc I think his discussion is more complete (even though he is writing about schizophrenics, not dissoids – except those dissoids who are wrongly classified as schizophrenics or those dissoids who are, or have alters who are, schizophrenic, of course .         Classically, transference is defined in terms of the         distortion of a present object representation on the basis of         experience in a previous object relationship; one’s feelings         about a present object are altered in accordance with feelings         originating in a previous relationship [citations of Freud].         Thus, transference is conceptualized as an intrapsychic event         that can be defined without reference to the way in which that         event influences or is affected by the personality system of         another person.   I think the part of the way I define transference that follows the esp. (i.e., esp. to the extent that it’s an overgeneralization instead of a generalization) is based upon the classical version of transference. Ogden states the more modern (relational) view of transference as follows:         Transference is thus conceptualized in terms of three         interrelated facets: (1) the projection of an internal self-         and/or object-representation onto the psychic representation         of the therapist (an intrapsychic event); (2) the         interpersonal actualization of that fantasy such that the         therapist is exposed to interpersonal pressure to conform to         the unconscious projective fantasy (projective         identification); and (3) the patient’s limitation of his own         psychological capacities in congruence with the state of his         ego as depicted in the internalized object relationship (an         intrapersonal actualization). While I’m at it, I may as well throw in Ogden’s view of resistance, since it is closer to my conceptualization of the term than yours probably is.         Resistance was seen by Freud [citation] as the manifestation         of the patient’s opposition to becoming aware of dynamically         unconscious meanings [citation]. The concept has been         broadened by others to include all manifestations of the         patient’s opposition to psychological growth [citiation]. [My         gratuitous and somewhat condescending - since it implies that         any therapist who adopts this view is acting at least         partially on delusions of grandeur and omniscience if they         believe that they or other clinicians or authorities are the         ones who should define this - comment: Growth as defined by         whom?] In this latter tradition, I would propose that         resistance be understood as also involving the patient’s         opposition to change in his capacity for thought and         experience, that is, opposition directed against enlarging the         functioning of formerly limited capacities that exist on a         level superordinate to that of repressed meanings. Opposition         to an ending of a limitation of psychological capacities for         thought and experience are equally a manifestation of         resistance as the patient’s opposition to the uncovering of         the repressed. IOW, the schizophrenic not only resists         awareness of meanings, but also resists creating and         maintaining both conscious and unconscious meanings and         representations. It is the latter form of resistance that has         led to the schizophrenic so often being declared ego-defective         and unanalyzable. [Note: I left in the last two sentences bc I         think that dissociation can also make it difficult to maintain         conscious and unconscious meanings and representations.] I hope this helps.   e Here’s the prior discussion: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] And yes, you _do_ define transference more broadly than I do. I was going to look up the word but of course all my books are packed fwiw, we define transference more closely to how e has defined it than to how Jill has defined it. This has been bugging me since the topic started. I think I think of ‘transference’ as a very specific Freudian type thing. I know that in college that’s the only time the word was used and I’ve rarely run into it in the literature since then unless it was Freudian in some way. However, there _is_ a term that was used in school all the time that means what astri and e are talking about, I just can’t remember what it is! At the moment all I can come up with is ‘generalization’ and I’m not sure this is it… [...] But isn’t that because of the ‘type’ of therapist you have? I have a very professional, close, important, almost ‘colleague’ (but not exactly), maybe ‘mentor’ would be a better word?, type relationship with my therapist. It is very _not_ based on transference! Jill, I wonder if you are talking about transference in terms of whether or not a therapist *uses* it as a focus of the treatment, not whether it exists?  different things happen in a relationship when the transference aspects of it are emphasized, but that doesn’t mean that transference doesn’t exist–it simply may not be considered a crucial aspect of treatment (unless there is an extreme, non-reality-based reaction like the type you have talked about as reqiring focus). See, this is it. As far as I can remember, transference _can_ exist or not exist, because it has to do with a specific theoretical model. It is both that the therapist uses it _and_ that the client does it. In some models this doesn’t happen, it’s called something else and it is different in some ways… Transference, as I think of it, doesn’t exist in my relationship with my therapist. But this other thing that both of you are talking about and I can’t remember the term I learned for it, does. ARGH Let’s see, this ‘thing’ is a connection between the two people in a way that the client makes general assumptions about the therapist and relates to the therapist in a pre-determined way because of these assumptions. It may have nothing to do with parents (as in, I see ‘you’ as my mother) or it may. Oh, this is _so_ annoying!! The more I talk about it the more I can remember talking about it in school and in a therapy group I was in. The difference in this from transference is that transference is more unconscious, is directly related to the immediate family and is most often something that gets in the way of the relationship. I don’t know to what extent my relationship with my therp is due to the "type" of therp I have. I do know that my therp treated me more like a real person than anyone else I interviewed (except maybe one or two others who were also very good at this but who had other serious drawbacks). Maybe your therapist can be your colleague or mentor, bc you are a therapist. I’m not. My therp is not my colleague or mentor. I don’t want him to be my colleague or mentor. I said this wrong. I didn’t mean colleague because I’m a therapist, I meant colleague because this is _my_ process and _my_ healing and he is just a guide. I said mentor because he is teaching me how to use new techniques and tools inside to heal. I’m now trying to imagine a relationship with a therapist that isn’t like what I describe and I can see how it wouldn’t work for _me_. I can see how it would work for someone else, because people are different. But personally (and regardless of my therapistness) I have to have the type of relationship I have with my therapist in order to get anywhere in healing. and there are probably a whole bunch of transference elements in this      but why mess with em if they are useful for you to keep as they are?  transference has no moral or psychological valence, as far as I am concerned. Or maybe it’s this other thing I can’t remember the name of! What _am_ I trying to remember!?!?!?! The type of relationship you ’should’ have is based on the therapist’s theoretical orientation, the dynamics that happen naturally between the two people (or more if there are alters involved:), the basic personality of everyone, and so on. Transference only enters into it if 1) the client ‘does’ it and 2) if the therapist wants to put emphasis on it. see, we disagree with #1 here.  everyone always "does" it.  it enters into the therapy relationship if the therapist (or the client) puts emphasis on it. But as I understand transference my therapist doesn’t remind me of _anyone_ in my family and doesn’t do _anything_ that is triggering or interfering in my relationship with him that is related to my past. Of course he has his ‘moments’ but they aren’t from the past. Now I did experience transference with a psychiatrist I worked with once. He ‘was’ my father. It was very frustrating and got in the way of the work. Unfortunately, when I mentioned it he wasn’t interested in working on it so I dumped him. And I’ve seen it happen in the therapy group I was in. There

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Response:

writes: for me, the best way to resolve all this therp vs. therapist stuff is to call my therapist my shrinky-dink or shrinky-dinky-do.  shrink-ums works too.  ;)

i like shrinky doo-doo myself! but i propose that any therp or shrink who has his/her egos tied up in what a name for them "sounds" like should think about finding a nice, safe profession….like oh, hermit.

Response:

writes: for me, the best way to resolve all this therp vs. therapist stuff is to call my therapist my shrinky-dink or shrinky-dinky-do.  shrink-ums works too.  ;) i like shrinky doo-doo myself! but i propose that any therp or shrink who has his/her egos tied up in what a name for them "sounds" like should think about finding a nice, safe profession….like oh, hermit.

Best laugh I’ve had in weeks… hehe… shrinky-dinky-do…. or doo-doo… I can’t get over myself…. heheh  hahaha….. Loud cackle….

Response:

Oh my goodness e.  There is so much here that I am inclined to comment on, however, I do not have such luxurious time to spend.  I must say however that this conversation is very intriguing and how I wish I could be in on it, but for now i will just listen with intent. Shiloh

Response:

posted and mailed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] And yes, you _do_ define transference more broadly than I do. I was going to look up the word but of course all my books are packed fwiw, we define transference more closely to how e has defined it than to how Jill has defined it. This has been bugging me since the topic started. I think I think of ‘transference’ as a very specific Freudian type thing. I know that in college that’s the only time the word was used and I’ve rarely run into it in the literature since then unless it was Freudian in some way. However, there _is_ a term that was used in school all the time that means what astri and e are talking about, I just can’t remember what it is! At the moment all I can come up with is ‘generalization’ and I’m not sure this is it…

I learned it using the term transference.  as I learned it, *using* the transference in the classical (and neo-classical) sense is called *interpreting* the transference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] But isn’t that because of the ‘type’ of therapist you have? I have a very professional, close, important, almost ‘colleague’ (but not exactly), maybe ‘mentor’ would be a better word?, type relationship with my therapist. It is very _not_ based on transference! Jill, I wonder if you are talking about transference in terms of whether or not a therapist *uses* it as a focus of the treatment, not whether it exists?  different things happen in a relationship when the transference aspects of it are emphasized, but that doesn’t mean that transference doesn’t exist–it simply may not be considered a crucial aspect of treatment (unless there is an extreme, non-reality-based reaction like the type you have talked about as reqiring focus). See, this is it. As far as I can remember, transference _can_ exist or not exist, because it has to do with a specific theoretical model. It is both that the therapist uses it _and_ that the client does it. In some models this doesn’t happen, it’s called something else and it is different in some ways… Transference, as I think of it, doesn’t exist in my relationship with my therapist. But this other thing that both of you are talking about and I can’t remember the term I learned for it, does. ARGH Let’s see, this ‘thing’ is a connection between the two people in a way that the client makes general assumptions about the therapist and relates to the therapist in a pre-determined way because of these assumptions. It may have nothing to do with parents (as in, I see ‘you’ as my mother) or it may. Oh, this is _so_ annoying!! The more I talk about it the more I can remember talking about it in school and in a therapy group I was in.

this is transference as I learned it.  we always relate to current experiences in terms of what we have learned in past experiences.   The difference in this from transference is that transference is more unconscious, is directly related to the immediate family and is most often something that gets in the way of the relationship.

not what I learned.  we exist in all relationships based on past relationships (similarities and differences of the current versus the past lead us to our current behaviors and evaluations of the relationship).  it *can* get in the way of current relationships if we are *caught* in the past patterns and unable to see that vaguely *similar* aspects of the current relationship to past relationships does not make the current relationship the *same* as the past relationship.   and although family relationships are important, that is only cuz they were the *first* relationships we experienced, so they formed our template for relationships.  however, we *are* able to learn from experiences, and add templates, or change templates, or learn to ignore defective templates.  as far as I learned, this is all transference stuff.   another name for a working relationship with a therapist is positive transference   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know to what extent my relationship with my therp is due to the "type" of therp I have. I do know that my therp treated me more like a real person than anyone else I interviewed (except maybe one or two others who were also very good at this but who had other serious drawbacks). Maybe your therapist can be your colleague or mentor, bc you are a therapist. I’m not. My therp is not my colleague or mentor. I don’t want him to be my colleague or mentor. I said this wrong. I didn’t mean colleague because I’m a therapist, I meant colleague because this is _my_ process and _my_ healing and he is just a guide. I said mentor because he is teaching me how to use new techniques and tools inside to heal. I’m now trying to imagine a relationship with a therapist that isn’t like what I describe and I can see how it wouldn’t work for _me_. I can see how it would work for someone else, because people are different. But personally (and regardless of my therapistness) I have to have the type of relationship I have with my therapist in order to get anywhere in healing. and there are probably a whole bunch of transference elements in this      but why mess with em if they are useful for you to keep as they are?  transference has no moral or psychological valence, as far as I am concerned. Or maybe it’s this other thing I can’t remember the name of! What _am_ I trying to remember!?!?!?!

I have no idea.  a synonym for transference? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The type of relationship you ’should’ have is based on the therapist’s theoretical orientation, the dynamics that happen naturally between the two people (or more if there are alters involved:), the basic personality of everyone, and so on. Transference only enters into it if 1) the client ‘does’ it and 2) if the therapist wants to put emphasis on it. see, we disagree with #1 here.  everyone always "does" it.  it enters into the therapy relationship if the therapist (or the client) puts emphasis on it. But as I understand transference my therapist doesn’t remind me of _anyone_ in my family and doesn’t do _anything_ that is triggering or interfering in my relationship with him that is related to my past. Of course he has his ‘moments’ but they aren’t from the

well, maybe your positive transference with him is that his behaviors are *not* similar to theirs, and your reaction to him is as *not-family*  :)   the *major* reason that the therapist being anything more than a blank slate gets in the way of classical analysis is *because* when the therapist gives us behaviors, we can react using the most appropriate (i.e., reality-based) template.  when we are faced with a blank slate, we *have* to fill it in before we can react (that’s natural human nature), and we tend to go back to the template for the rest of the templates (earliest relationships) in order to do the filling in.  ambiguity is uncomfortable, so we make an attempt to fill it in with what we have learned from the past–but the anxiety causes us to use the earliest, strongest templates. if your therapist is not a blank slate, then transference issues may not play a large part of the treatment, because you have reality-based behaviors to react to. past. Now I did experience transference with a psychiatrist I worked with once. He ‘was’ my father. It was very frustrating and got in the way of the work. Unfortunately, when I mentioned it he wasn’t interested in working on it so I dumped him.

good for you    :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And I’ve seen it happen in the therapy group I was in. There were two women who set each other off because of family resemblances. Fortunately the therapist was good at working on this and things got resolved over time. I guess my view of transference is much broader than yours. I’d include in transference any use of assimilation (within the context of a relationship) if it involves a schema developed as a result of one’s interactions with or relationships to (other – added bc the person to whom one is relating transferentially need not be an SO, imho) SOs (in the broad sense of the term)  in one’s life, esp. to the extent that accommodation would be more appropriate. Your view is probably more correct, since you are a therapist. NOPE!!!!! My view is more _my_ view, and your view is more _your_ view. It’s like an opinion. There is no right or wrong. Mine might be more ‘technically’ correct, but so what? In this discussion all that matters is that we understand each other’s definition. My definition is the very limited one and yours is the very broad one. Ok. and we have training, too.  and we agree more with e’s view than with Jill’s.  but that doesn’t make Jill wrong, actually, cuz we think that Jill is focusing not on whether transference exists, but on whether it is used in the treatment process, or even necessary to the treatment process.  so everybody is right              astri #AKA pink bunnies#             Or I’m focusing on a very rigid classical definition of it and there is some other word I was taught that means the broader type that you two mean. Rainbow Colors (Jill)

maybe             astri #AKA pink bunnies#                                                               `o’_*              |/(((( |/   All conditions

… read more »

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:  That was also the point when I decided to declare myself the Pope of : my own church – I figured as long as I was the Pope, then I would : automatically outrank any boss in my own context, and I wouldn’t need : to worry about authority figures any more.  It may not be the standard : way of dealing with transference, but it worked for me. : :  – C : You know there is another term used for people who think they are the : pope. *grin* Well, I have some official papers to prove that I’m the Pope, actually.  Not to mention the card I carry which says I am a Pope on official business, and people should therefore cooperate with me.

Oh, I know several people with papers like that. If I understand them correctly you can marry people and stuff. I wanted to have either my brother or a friend of mine marry my SO and I. It is supposedly legal and all that, but my SO said it was ‘too religious’.  _I_ have papers that say I’m not crazy. I’m not too sure I put alot of credence into papers *grin* Besides, I’m not sure you can say that *my* believing I’m the Pope is necessarily any more delusional than that other John-Paul guy believing that he’s the Pope.  He’s just convinced a lot more people to go along with him. But since *I* know that *my* being the Pope is delusional, and I’m not sure that *he* knows that *his* being the Pope is just a delusion, who’s the sane one here?  ;-)  – C

Well, sure, but _he_ gets to wear a cool robe and weird hat. Do _you_ have a weird hat? He also has one heck of a cool house (I’ve been there and seen it, it’s HUGE!) with a moat in the basement (I think that was where the moat was *shrug* seen one huge fortress you’ve seen them all so I might be confusing it with some other huge place in Italy) and arrow slits in the outside walls. I really doubt a person can be official without arrow slits in their outside walls! (imo:) Now, Grand Poobah I’ll accept. I don’t think Grand Poobahs need arrow slits or moats. Also, you know that if you can get enough people to go along with you, you aren’t delusional, just really really clever. *grin* That John Paul guy is pretty dang smart!!! OTOH, I just realized that everyone on asd accepts you as ‘pope’ and we certainly have a large enough group, so maybe you _are_ right! Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.

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mail cc:asd Hi, Pope C, I don’t have any idea what’s going on in this thread.  Just dropped in here to see how you are doing… message after your comment … Spoiler for the word ch*rch, reference to another p*p*,  just in case . . . . . . a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :  That was also the point when I decided to declare myself the Pope of : my own church – I figured as long as I was the Pope, then I would : automatically outrank any boss in my own context, and I wouldn’t need : to worry about authority figures any more.  It may not be the standard : way of dealing with transference, but it worked for me. : :  – C : You know there is another term used for people who think they are the : pope. *grin* Well, I have some official papers to prove that I’m the Pope, actually.  Not to mention the card I carry which says I am a Pope on official business, and people should therefore cooperate with me. Besides, I’m not sure you can say that *my* believing I’m the Pope is necessarily any more delusional than that other John-Paul guy believing that he’s the Pope.  He’s just convinced a lot more people to go along with him. But since *I* know that *my* being the Pope is delusional, and I’m not sure that *he* knows that *his* being the Pope is just a delusion, who’s the sane one here?  ;-)  – C —                         Pope C the Anonymous

I agree with you, Pope C.  I believe if you believe you are delusional, then you are the sane one.  Delusional people generally don’t know they are delusional. Take me for instance . . . <grin {cherish}  a  b  c  d  e  f  g  h  i  j  k  l  m  n  o  p  q  r  s  t  u  v  w  x  y  z — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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pope c wroote: Well, I have some official papers to prove that I’m the Pope, actually.  Not to mention the card I carry which says I am a Pope on official business, and people should therefore cooperate with me. Besides, I’m not sure you can say that *my* believing I’m the Pope is necessarily any more delusional than that other John-Paul guy believing that he’s the Pope.  He’s just convinced a lot more people to go along with him. But since *I* know that *my* being the Pope is delusional, and I’m not sure that *he* knows that *his* being the Pope is just a delusion, who’s the sane one here?  ;-)   — C

we not understand who is pope and who is not pope. we understand that we dont like this old man ther in Rome but we do like pope c litles —                      Have to believe we are magic                      nothing can stand in our way                      (Olivia Newton-John, Magic) — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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snipped stuff… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Whew!  Nearly as bad as reading French structuralism, except that this is actually supposed to convey meaning.  Think of all the years of graduate school required to teach people to say things so obscurely!  I’ll give an *example* that, I think, makes it much simpler to understand transference outside of a therapeutic relationship.  Up to my mid-20s, I would have huge problems dealing with male authority figures, especially bosses, and also some teachers.  I would react to them in all kinds of inappropriate ways, either getting angry at them, getting all panicked about living up to expectations I imagined they had of me, or "failing" them in some highly visible way.  At some point I realized "Hey – this is not about my relationship with them, this is about my projections onto them of my bad relationship with my father."  At that point, I started gradually having an easier time sorting things out, started being able to recognize good traits about some of my bosses from that time and adopt them as positive role models, and cut out a lot of these self-sabotaging behaviors in the work context.  That was also the point when I decided to declare myself the Pope of my own church – I figured as long as I was the Pope, then I would automatically outrank any boss in my own context, and I wouldn’t need to worry about authority figures any more.  It may not be the standard way of dealing with transference, but it worked for me.  – C

You know there is another term used for people who think they are the pope. *grin* Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -mail cc:asd Hi, Pope C, I don’t have any idea what’s going on in this thread.  Just dropped in here to see how you are doing… message after your comment … Spoiler for the word ch*rch, reference to another p*p*,  just in case . . . . . . a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o :  That was also the point when I decided to declare myself the Pope of : my own church – I figured as long as I was the Pope, then I would : automatically outrank any boss in my own context, and I wouldn’t need : to worry about authority figures any more.  It may not be the standard : way of dealing with transference, but it worked for me. : :  – C : You know there is another term used for people who think they are the : pope. *grin* Well, I have some official papers to prove that I’m the Pope, actually.  Not to mention the card I carry which says I am a Pope on official business, and people should therefore cooperate with me. Besides, I’m not sure you can say that *my* believing I’m the Pope is necessarily any more delusional than that other John-Paul guy believing that he’s the Pope.  He’s just convinced a lot more people to go along with him. But since *I* know that *my* being the Pope is delusional, and I’m not sure that *he* knows that *his* being the Pope is just a delusion, who’s the sane one here?  ;-)  – C —                         Pope C the Anonymous I agree with you, Pope C.  I believe if you believe you are delusional, then you are the sane one.  Delusional people generally don’t know they are delusional. Take me for instance . . . <grin {cherish} a  b  c  d  e  f  g  h  i  j  k  l  m  n  o  p  q  r  s  t  u  v  w  x  y  z

I *love* this Pope C, I didn’t know you were a *real* pope. I just thought it was a cool name!  Can anybody be a pope? Hmmmm…  Pope Kaleidoscope….. It could happen! — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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posted and e-mailed  (: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, I find that I do it with everyone. I think most ppl do. I think of transference as the overgeneralization: (a) of behaviors, attitudes, etc. learned as a child (or occasionally as an adult) in one’s significant relationships (b) to ppl and situations, esp. to the extent that they are inaccurate or inappropriate (i.e., are overgeneralizations instead of accurate generalizations).   Lionheart would like to comment: I think the way people learn much about life is through transferance, also called categorization or generalization. I think it’s our human alternative to inflexible instinct. I think I have so many problems in life because of transference. For example I do a lot of transference of "mother" onto woman, and of "dangerous person" onto men. (Is that phrasing right?) I think this is the way people form their personalities, and the way people’s lives become affected and constrained by trauma, or by anythign else. While it may be a broader definition than therps use when speaking clinically, I have seen it used that way by  J. Konrad Stettbacher in Making Sense of Suffering. [snip] Like you, e, I would like to use transferance to refer to the process of learning by which we take experiences from specific situations and "predict" their  applicability to other situations, generalizing and categorizing, in other words. It seems to be an important way to learn, but it also gets in the way because we end upp not able to approach new situations with open minds.

I agree! It’s impossible not to do it, bc once these categories or other cognitive schema are in place, it’s easier to just shove perceptions into existing categories than to modify those categories or construct new ones. And in interpersonal interactions, it’s even more difficult bc the other person will unconsciously conform to our expectations of them, as we will unconsciously conform to theirs (at least to some extent). So then we’re not only shoving the person into our view of them WRT our own perceptions and beliefs about them, they start to become more like how we view them (and we become more like how they view us). It’s confusing trying to sort it all out. I also think that dissociation is one way that we’ve learned to see with new eyes. When I dissociate, I forget a lot of info that was useful in one context, but not in another. I think that’s why it works so well and is so difficult to change. It’s an amazing way of temporarily altering one’s schemas into more appropriate (i.e., useful, functional, effective) ones without really modifying them on a long-term basis. Every time I think of this, I kinda wish I would have become a cognitive psychologist, as I’d planned in college. I think it would be fascinating to investigate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you don’t want to have transference-based relationships with your clients, what other basis for a relationship with one’s therapist should there be (from a therapist’s point of view), since a therapist typically reveals very little personal info?  I don’t see that there’s much beyond transference (and counter-transference and our sorting out and working through both of them) in my relationship with my therapist. Lionheart: I have very little transferance with my therp and the reason is this – she is totally unlike anyone I have ever met before, she treats me totally differently than anyone else ever did, and this became clear to me the very first time I saw her. Since she is a *new* exxperience, there is very little from my past that I can transfer onto her (although occassionally she does become ‘mother’ in my eyes and we have to work on that). In case you’re wondering how she is *so* different and new, it’s that she treats me with respect (rather than fear or condescension) and she has wonderful boundaries and treats me as though I have boundaries too.

Mine does that, too, but I still think that my relationship with him is based almost exclusively on transference. I want to think more about what you said and why our experiences are so different here. Or maybe we’re just defining our terms differently. Anyway, I’m glad that you have a good therp who treats you with respect and has good boundaries. (I think that good boundaries are mutual; if someone wants me to respect hir and hir right to choose things for hirself, sie should do the same with me. When something will affect both of us, I think we should negotiate and compromise in order to meet any needs either of us may have .) Lionheart: I think an important aspsect of therapy is to show people like me that transference need not apply, that the past and all the experiences from the past need not be duplicated in the present. That we can have new experiences tht are nothing like our old experiences. I think people like me need "vision training", we need to learn to see with new eyes.

I think that it’s important to learn that the unrealistic things we’ve learned to believe as a result of our abuse (or anything else) don’t usually apply. I think that’s what you’re saying. I do think therapy can help us learn that. (:   Lionheart: As to the relationship with my therp, my therp acts as what Alice Miller calls an "enlightened witnesss", and thus she serves a role tht, again, no one served before (so there’s no possibility of transfereence). She witnesses the abuse I suffered in the past without participating in it (there was no one who did that in the past). Transference is happening, in that I am learning from her to create an enlightened witness in or of myself, and to dare to ask of others that they do the same.

It sounds like you’re doing powerful work together. Kudos, Lionheart, and thanks for the post.  (:   e — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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I have a question. If people who have MPD/DID could tell the people in the world, who don’t and who really don’t have much of an idea what it is all about, what would they want to say? What would people with MPD/DID like to say to the world about the ways they DON’T like being treated when dealing with others who don’t know about MPD/DID.  What things WOULD they like others to do?  How can we ALL learn to deal with each other in a way that is more respectful of each other If I wanted to be friends with someone who has MPD, but I can tell she is scared, what do I do to show that it’s ok with me and I won’t be weird or judgemental? Thanks for any answers. — Ask me about a PPP, shell or WWW account with ViaNet! Serving Northern and Southern California – commercial and business customers.  See http://www.via.net/

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: If people who have MPD/DID could tell the people in the world, who : don’t and who really don’t have much of an idea what it is all about, : what would they want to say? I’d like to say, "Please don’t be hurt that I can’t seem to remember half of our conversations.  It’s not that I don’t care about what you have to say; it’s just that I have trouble keeping track of things." I’d also like to say, "I know you think of me as being moody, and you never know where you stand with me from day to day.  But I do truly care about you; it’s just that I show it in a number of different ways." : What would people with MPD/DID like to say to the world about the ways : they DON’T like being treated when dealing with others who don’t know : about MPD/DID.  What things WOULD they like others to do? The people who I admire most are the people who deal with me as I am *at the moment*.  And almost NONE of these people has any idea about my "parts.  There are just some people out there who value diversity both *among* people and *within* people, and thank goodness for them These were good questions. swiv

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snipped due to newsreader requirements These were good questions. swiv

these were good answers, swiv.

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hey punk,  i’m marcus  spoilerin for talkin bout b*dy confusion bein teen 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1  yo thats a long trip. heh hey punk glad ya wrote. nobody ever seems ta talk about this hey. i’m a male ina female too. i like woman  but ya just can’t go up ta em and try ta talk ta em when ya have ta drag the wrong bod around. i no some may get on me bout what i’m gonna say here but i’ll take me chances. one of the things i found was talkin ta women on the net. cause i can be me. it ain’t the same as f2f but it kinda is nice ta be able ta talk ta women and be me. not have ta be me with someone elses bod.   i got a friend whose mpd too. we talk a lot and she nos my situation. she’s cool ta talk ta.   maybe ya could just try meetin people on the net maybe it would help some. hang in dude marcus http//www.mindspring.com/~theroyals

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Hi, it’s Punk and I gotta question. Is about bein a teen and about s*x and about me bein confused about the whole thing. And I put in such apoiler-thing so nobody has to jump because of this, ‘kay. w a n n a k n o w w h a t t a d o b u t h a v n o c l u e Okay. This is goin to be embarassin I bet … So Im a teen in this bunch and I happen to be male while the body is female. And this sucks. Sucks big way ‘cuz some time ago started to think bout sex (the non-sicko variant, thats for sure) and start to feel all sorta confusin stuff but shit how am I to deal with this? Was much easier when I didnt think about it and not feel anythin in that directiuon but seems its not possible to go back there. So Im stuck. Stuck being me – wrong age wrong body and totally confused about this – and not knowin what to do, how to find out what I want and how to get that. Any ideas anybody? Punk (and I _hate_ to be clueless)

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Hey, Punk. Going down under the spoiler to reply. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, it’s Punk and I gotta question. Is about bein a teen and about s*x and about me bein confused about the whole thing. And I put in such apoiler-thing so nobody has to jump because of this, ‘kay. w a n n a k n o w w h a t t a d o b u t h a v n o c l u e Okay. This is goin to be embarassin I bet … So Im a teen in this bunch and I happen to be male while the body is female. And this sucks. Sucks big way ‘cuz some time ago started to think bout sex (the non-sicko variant, thats for sure) and start to feel all sorta confusin stuff but shit how am I to deal with this? Was much easier when I didnt think about it and not feel anythin in that directiuon but seems its not possible to go back there. So Im stuck. Stuck being me – wrong age wrong body and totally confused about this – and not knowin what to do, how to find out what I want and how to get that. Any ideas anybody? Punk (and I _hate_ to be clueless)

I’m Kiril. 16. Everyone in this body is male, just about. We do use the Net for stuff because you really can be who you are online. There are ‘adult’ social places where you can get the -oldest- person in your System to get a character you can use (Hey, it’s not lying to use the body’s age and stuff. Just bending a  reality a little bit.) We do MUSHes and Muds and a lot of us have personal characters here and there. Feelings is harder, man. Have to think ’bout that…for a long time I didn’t feel -nothing-…all ice…then I did and yah, confusion R us…. Kiril (Part of Ken&) — We are the wounded, healers of angels.

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Hi Kiril, hey, great you replied. I sorta reckoned nobody would cuz theyd either be too embarrassed or too busy fightin or whatever. *grin* Meet ya below the spoiler.  n Hey, Punk. Going down under the spoiler to reply.  n     it’s Punk and I gotta question. Is about bein a teen and about s*x and   about me  bein confused about the whole thing. And I put in such   apoiler-thing so nobody has to jump because of this, ‘kay.   w   a   n   n   a   k   n   o   w   w   h   a   t   t   a   d   o   b   u   t   h   a   v     n   o   c   l   u   e     Okay. This is goin to be embarassin I bet …   So Im a teen in this bunch and I happen to be male while the body is   female. And this sucks. Sucks big way ‘cuz some time ago started to think   bout sex (the non-sicko variant, thats for sure) and start to feel all   sorta confusin stuff but shit how am I to deal with this? Was much   easier when I didnt think about it and not feel anythin in that   directiuon but seems its not possible to go back there. So Im stuck.   Stuck being me – wrong age wrong body and totally confused about this   – and not knowin what to do, how to find out what I want and how to   get that. Any ideas anybody? Punk (and I _hate_ to be clueless)  n  n I’m Kiril. 16. Everyone in this body is male, just about. Hi *grin* So it looks lik ya know the same stuff only from the very opposit angle, right? Guess, must be as embarrassing as my angle … how do you deal with that?  n  We do use the Net for stuff because you really can be who you are  n online. I agree thats a good thing about the net but what if you wanna be who you are in rl life, too?  n  There are ‘adult’ social places where you can get the -oldest- person  n in your System to get a character you can use (Hey, it’s not lying to  n use the body’s age and stuff. Just bending a  reality a little bit.) *grin* Im very well known for using what I call tactical lies. *grin* If its necessary, if the othas wont get it anyway if the price to pay for not doin it is higher than what you got – guess, then thats what one needs.  n We do MUSHes and Muds and a lot of us have personal characters here  n and there. But thats talking, right? Also I think for talkin you sorta need to have a clue whjat to talk abourt and to create a character, well, ya need to know at least sorta general direction, and I think Im too clueless for this. Like I dont know if Id prefer other males or females or whatever.  n Feelings is harder, man. Have to think ’bout that…for a long time I  n didn’t feel -nothing-…all ice…then I did and yah, confusion R us…. I sometims think I felt far too much of the othas (its my job to get them somewher else if somebody starts to feel too intense or whatever) so I never get around to my own feelings most of the time. And, hum, maybe now that Im out more and Im also out more on my own account (cuz I want to cuz I’m curious and not just cuz I sorta havto), thats changing. So how did ya get over the confusion state? Punk

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Hi Kiril, hey, great you replied. I sorta reckoned nobody would cuz theyd either be too embarrassed or too busy fightin or whatever. *grin* Meet ya below the spoiler.

Hey again. We’re pretty hard to embarass, and the other Protector is watching the fight so I don’t gotta. She’s cool, for a leather-dyke type chick. I agree with her, we need a leather trenchcoat. Now if only the others’d  agree. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  n Hey, Punk. Going down under the spoiler to reply.  n   it’s Punk and I gotta question. Is about bein a teen and about s*x and   about me  bein confused about the whole thing. And I put in such   apoiler-thing so nobody has to jump because of this, ‘kay.   w   a   n   n   a   k   n   o   w   w   h   a   t   t   a   d   o   b   u   t   h   a   v   n   o   c   l   u   e   Okay. This is goin to be embarassin I bet …   So Im a teen in this bunch and I happen to be male while the body is   female. And this sucks. Sucks big way ‘cuz some time ago started to think   bout sex (the non-sicko variant, thats for sure) and start to feel all   sorta confusin stuff but shit how am I to deal with this? Was much   easier when I didnt think about it and not feel anythin in that   directiuon but seems its not possible to go back there. So Im stuck.   Stuck being me – wrong age wrong body and totally confused about this   – and not knowin what to do, how to find out what I want and how to   get that. Any ideas anybody? Punk (and I _hate_ to be clueless)  n  n I’m Kiril. 16. Everyone in this body is male, just about. Hi *grin* So it looks lik ya know the same stuff only from the very opposit angle, right? Guess, must be as embarrassing as my angle … how do you deal with that?

Body’s -real- female. Looks like one of those Goddess-statues, big and plump. -Me-? I -should- be well over six foot tall, and thin as wire. (Not to mention the ethnic thing. I’m hispanic.)  n  We do use the Net for stuff because you really can be who you are  n online. I agree thats a good thing about the net but what if you wanna be who you are in rl life, too?

Still working on that. Trying to get the weight off and get us all into something that looks like decent shape. If I can do it, I’m buying myself better clothes. Hrm. Sex stuff, well…no law says you got to have the parts *attached* to you. We keep our penis collection inna dresser drawer. (Yeah, everyone has their own stuff…) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  n  There are ‘adult’ social places where you can get the -oldest- person  n in your System to get a character you can use (Hey, it’s not lying to  n use the body’s age and stuff. Just bending a  reality a little bit.) *grin* Im very well known for using what I call tactical lies. *grin* If its necessary, if the othas wont get it anyway if the price to pay for not doin it is higher than what you got – guess, then thats what one needs.  n We do MUSHes and Muds and a lot of us have personal characters here  n and there. But thats talking, right? Also I think for talkin you sorta need to have a clue whjat to talk abourt and to create a character, well, ya need to know at least sorta general direction, and I think Im too clueless for this. Like I dont know if Id prefer other males or females or whatever.

Explore. You can try stuff out, and find out that way what you really like, without getting into RL risks. The others cool with it? Way we dfo it is share time…we cooperate lots in here.  n Feelings is harder, man. Have to think ’bout that…for a long time I  n didn’t feel -nothing-…all ice…then I did and yah, confusion R us…. I sometims think I felt far too much of the othas (its my job to get them somewher else if somebody starts to feel too intense or whatever) so I never get around to my own feelings most of the time. And, hum, maybe now that Im out more and Im also out more on my own account (cuz I want to cuz I’m curious and not just cuz I sorta havto), thats changing. So how did ya get over the confusion state?

Time. And thinking a lot more’n I wanted to. It’s -strange- for it to be ok to want things, y’know? I was so freaked when Val asked me what *I* wanted to do with my free time. I used to be the one who took pain, and dealt with the scary crap like hospitals, but when Abyss woke up she took the medical foo and I don’t have to do it now…more free time for me. I’m rambling. Feh! More later if I think of something useful. Kiril Punk

– We are the wounded, healers of angels.

Response:

Hi Kiril,

  hey, great you replied. I sorta reckoned nobody would cuz theyd either   be too embarrassed or too busy fightin or whatever. *grin* Meet ya   below the spoiler.  n  n Hey again. Hi.  n  We’re pretty hard to embarass, Usually Id say the same about me. Usually Im pretty big-mouthed. But this topic has me … hum, dunno, embarrased, confused, clueless and a bunch of other very un-punk-like things.  n  and the other Protector is watching the fight so I don’t gotta. We sorta wade through this stuff, at least through the headers, but we don’t read most of it. Doesnt make sense to me, all this fightin, seems about nothin really. At least it feels as if what its all really about never really gets into the writing.  n She’s cool, for a leather-dyke type chick. *grin*  n  I agree with her, we need a leather trenchcoat. Now if only the  n others’d  agree. Hehe … ya know, we always gotta problem when we try to remember how many leather jackets and trousers we own. And we were lookin for a leather trenchcoat but those we liked were far too expensiv. *grin*    n Hey, Punk. Going down under the spoiler to reply. Obviously spoiler got lost. Well, it seems only you and me talkin here, so *shrug*.    n         it’s Punk and I gotta question. Is about bein a teen and about s*x     and about me  bein confused about the whole thing. And I put in such     apoiler-thing so nobody has to jump because of this, ‘kay. w a n n a     k n o w w h a t t a d o b u t h a v n o c l u e Okay. This is goin to     be embarassin I bet … So Im a teen in this bunch and I happen to be     male while the body is female. And this sucks. Sucks big way ‘cuz     some time ago started to think bout sex (the non-sicko variant, thats     for sure) and start to feel all sorta confusin stuff but shit how am     I to deal with this? Was much easier when I didnt think about it and     not feel anythin in that directiuon but seems its not possible to go     back there. So Im stuck. Stuck being me – wrong age wrong body and     totally confused about this – and not knowin what to do, how to find     out what I want and how to get that. Any ideas anybody? Punk (and I     _hate_ to be clueless)    n    n I’m Kiril. 16. Everyone in this body is male, just about.     Hi *grin*   So it looks lik ya know the same stuff only from the very opposit   angle, right? Guess, must be as embarrassing as my angle … how do   you deal with that?  n  n Body’s -real- female. Oh, so what you meant was most folks living in it are male? With us, at least with those we know for sure, its pretty much 50/50.  n  Looks like one of those Goddess-statues, big and plump. -Me-? I  n -should- be well over six foot tall, and thin as wire.  n (Not to mention the ethnic thing. I’m hispanic.) Oh. Well … let me see. Bodys female but sorta androgynous. At least thats what lots people say. Its skinny and not very female lookin, thats for sure. Though its not as skinny as Im. And I want blue hair! Ethnicwise it seems sorta fitting. Only age and gender arent mine.    n We do use the Net for stuff because you really can be who you are    n online.     I agree thats a good thing about the net but what if you wanna be who you   are in rl life, too?  n  n Still working on that. Trying to get the weight off and get us all into  n something that looks like decent shape. If I can do it, I’m buying myself  n better clothes. Guess I sorta would like to go shopping with you then. *grin* Maybe Id find a leather trenchcoat, too.  n  Hrm. Sex stuff, well…no law says you got to have the parts  n *attached* to you. No law says it, right. And even if it did, I don’t think Id give a shit. Strange thing is, to _me_ it feels as if its there though from the outside perspective and for all practical purposes it aint. Dunno, our T said somethin about multiples havin more than one body – one physical body and various virtual ones. Makes sorta sense to me.  n  We keep our penis collection inna dresser drawer. (Yeah, everyone has  n their own stuff…) Not sure this wuld work for me but admitted, I never thought about it before. The not sure comes from me personally feelin complete while not being it and knowin it. Dunno how additional parts wuld fit into that, kinda think it would rather make the contradiction more visible to me than anythin else. But maybe I just havta let it sink in a while.    n There are ‘adult’ social places where you can get the -oldest-    n person in your System to get a character you can use (Hey, it’s not    n lying to use the body’s age and stuff. Just bending a  reality a    n little bit.)     *grin*   Im very well known for using what I call tactical lies. *grin*   If its necessary, if the othas wont get it anyway if the price to pay for   not doin it is higher than what you got – guess, then thats what one   needs.  n We do MUSHes and Muds and a lot of us have personal characters here  n and there. But thats talking, right? Also I think for talkin you sorta  n need to have a clue  n   whjat to talk abourt and to create a character, well, ya need to know at   least sorta general direction, and I think Im too clueless for this. Like   I dont know if Id prefer other males or females or whatever.  n  n Explore. You can try stuff out, and find out that way what you really like,  n without getting into RL risks. The others cool with it? Thats exactly what wuld get in the way in rl, I think, so maybe thats a plus for tryin out those MUSHes and Muds.  n  Way we dfo it is share time…we cooperate lots in here. Yeah, we too, but Id say the way we cooperate might get in the way with me experimentin for real. Though, I kinda think what I long for is touch … *arggh*    n Feelings is harder, man. Have to think ’bout that…for a long time I    n didn’t feel -nothing-…all ice…then I did and yah, confusion R    n us….     I sometims think I felt far too much of the othas (its my job to get them   somewher else if somebody starts to feel too intense or whatever) so I   never get around to my own feelings most of the time. And, hum, maybe now   that Im out more and Im also out more on my own account (cuz I want to   cuz I’m curious and not just cuz I sorta havto), thats changing. So   how did ya get over the confusion state?  n  n Time. And thinking a lot more’n I wanted to. It’s -strange- for it to be ok  n to want things, y’know? Ya know, apart from me bein clueless what I want when it comes to sex … hum, most of the stuff I know I want is either dangerous or illegal. *grin*  n I was so freaked when Val asked me what *I* wanted to do with my free  n time. Id just love to do some more grafitis again lik I did long time ago. *grin*  n I used to be the one who took pain, and dealt with the scary crap like  n hospitals, *yuck* Sorry, dunno what else to say. You must be brave, I guess.  n but when Abyss woke up she took the medical foo and I don’t have to do  n it now…more free time for me. Sounds good!  n I’m rambling. Feh! Ah, its okay with me. I lik talkin to you.  n  More later if I think of something useful. Lookin forward to it. Punk

Response:

Punk hi. Blue hair??? LOL I can see it. I know of at least _one_ person who might have a problem with that, maybe you should try the kind of dye that washes out? Hey, next time you all come visit here we can go shopping and try to find some that washes out easily and you can do it as a sort of vacation thing. *wicked grin* Oh yeah, I can’t remember if you are the one into tatoos but I’ve got a lead on the idea of getting one that washes off in several days. Again, something to consider on your next visit here Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

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This is Starfleet and this is the first time we try to mail someting to this newsgroup. We’re from Germany and English isn’t our native language, so probably there’ll be some mistakes in what we write, or our style is a bit funny. We’re a bit nervous, but we go ahead anyway. We have a problem right now and we would be happy, if someone could help us with it. As it has to do with going to the dentist, we put in a spoiler. < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< o.k. here we go Last time we went to the dentist, she told us that she has to put a large goldfilling into one of our teeth. Unfortunately we have an alter who is triggered by the view of syringes. She will get the anaesthetic (I don’t know whether the spelling is correct), but then she disappears and someone else will come out and undergo the treatment with no anaesthetic at all ! And there’s a good chance that I will be that person. The person who’s triggered by syringes isn’t cooperative at all and will not stay out for the treatment. Now the treatment is important and we have to have it. Does anyone have an idea, what I should do now? I would be happy, if somenone could help me with that problem Cora from Starfleet — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is Starfleet and this is the first time we try to mail someting to this newsgroup. We’re from Germany and English isn’t our native language, so probably there’ll be some mistakes in what we write, or our style is a bit funny. We’re a bit nervous, but we go ahead anyway. We have a problem right now and we would be happy, if someone could help us with it. As it has to do with going to the dentist, we put in a spoiler. < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< o.k. here we go Last time we went to the dentist, she told us that she has to put a large goldfilling into one of our teeth. Unfortunately we have an alter who is triggered by the view of syringes. She will get the anaesthetic (I don’t know whether the spelling is correct), but then she disappears and someone else will come out and undergo the treatment with no anaesthetic at all ! And there’s a good chance that I will be that person. The person who’s triggered by syringes isn’t cooperative at all and will not stay out for the treatment. Now the treatment is important and we have to have it. Does anyone have an idea, what I should do now? I would be happy, if somenone could help me with that problem Cora from Starfleet

Cora, although this is my first posting to this newgroup i do consider myself familar with the treatment of mpd.  These are my suggestions. First, must the alter who is being uncooperative need to even be "out" during the trip to the dentist?? My suggestion if he/she does not is to help build them a safe place inside your system and allow them to stay there while you are at the dentist.  If you are not in therapy and cannot do this with a therapist you can still do this yourself. To do this by yourself, my suggestion is to have one of your alters who knows alot about your system first create a safe place inside for this alter with the settings inside something they feel comfortable with.  The day you go to the dentist the one who helped create this "safe room" can then suggest to the alter who does not like to say around that they are going to be allowed to sleep the whole time you are at the dentist and will not need to worry about being hurt or abused while in their safe room.  You can even do a slight countdown for this alter in the form of 5 down to 1 if you do not have a problem with numbers.  Such as, "as i count down from 5 to 1 the alter who is afraid of syringes can feel themselves becoming more and more comfortable in their safe place, down to 4 feeling themself getting more and more sleepy, and relaxed, knowing they can take a break and not need to worry about being hurt, down to 3 much more relaxed now, feeling the arms, legs, hands, eyes etc just resting almost as they are floating in a nice peaceful cloud (or something), down to 2 almost completely asleep and very relaxed, and down to one completely asleep and knowing they have no need to worry while you go to the dentist., and 1 completely asleep and relaxed."  The one who gives these suggestions can then say that when you walk out of the dentist office, or at home or wherever, they can begin to slowly awake, and know that they are safe.  Keep in mind that there is a reason why this alter gets scared about syringes.  They are likely trying to tell you something but may be nervous to say why.  you might just ask them why they dont want to be cooperative or why they leave in the middle of the dentist visit.  I hope all goes well.  I will be curious to know how this turns out for you and if you need other ideas just let me – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is Starfleet and this is the first time we try to mail someting to this newsgroup. We’re from Germany and English isn’t our native language, so probably there’ll be some mistakes in what we write, or our style is a bit funny. We’re a bit nervous, but we go ahead anyway. We have a problem right now and we would be happy, if someone could help us with it. As it has to do with going to the dentist, we put in a spoiler. < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< < < <<< o.k. here we go Last time we went to the dentist, she told us that she has to put a large goldfilling into one of our teeth. Unfortunately we have an alter who is triggered by the view of syringes. Cora from Starfleet

Cora, although this is my first posting to this newgroup i do consider myself familar with the treatment of mpd.  These are my suggestions. First, must the alter who is being uncooperative need to even be "out" during the trip to the dentist?? My suggestion if he/she does not is to help build them a safe place inside your system and allow them to stay there while you are at the dentist.   I think that’s a good idea.  Here’s another thought – I was once really scared at the dentist because I hated shots and this time he gave me nitrous oxide before anything else so that when I did get the shot, I wasn’t totally there.  Another thought if you couldn’t make sure that the alter isn’t there is that you could talk with the dentist before and explain what would happen and maybe the dentist could work it so that the first shot was really small and after you switched, he could give another shot, but this time it would be the full dosage. Good luck with whatever works, Cyn

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Hello,   I just noticed this newsgroup and I’ve read some of the posts.  Could someone tell me a little bit more about this group?  It would be much appreciated.  Thanks. Debbie

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I posted this before, but don’t think it got through.  I was wondering what this group is about.  If anyone could answer if would be appreciated. Thanks Debbie

Hi Debbie.  There’s a faq that goes with this newsgroup, posted every 2 weeks or so.  It would be much more descriptive of this newsgroup, but is not posted at this moment.  So, I can give you a brief description: It’s a support group for persons who previously suffered trauma, and have developed dissociative "disorders" as a result (or friends, partners of the same).  A little more specifically, I think most who post have suffered heavy duty abuse, of some or all the varieties, most of their early lives.   So, I for one, found it to be too much to take (in terms of brutality, frequency, and from adults I trusted and relied on).  I would often "go away" in my mind, and leave my body to get hammered.  This is dissociation.  I think there is some kind of, uh, spectrum of dissociation, so some folks developed the unique ability to get "other kids" to take the abuse.  Each person’s different, but I just created some other states of consciousness, other kids, to take the pain when I couldn’t.  Since the abuse continued, these kids were needed more often, to cut in on my "dance card" when I was nearly bat-shit from the pain and suffering.  So, they would just begin taking the pain where I left off.   I would split inside my head, while they stayed out and got beat, or sexually abused. . .                   Well, soon enough, these folks weren’t just living in the imaginary realm, but maturing sections of myself that I cut off.  Their own names, tastes, habits, and character.  Okay, so that’s what the doctor/shrink people call multiple personality disorder (but as some have commented, what’s disordered about surviving 17 years of regular brutal torture).   So, there’s another term for it "DID" but I don’t remember what it means. And so, a lot of people who post here look for comments on their experience with having more than one person within, and/or their tendency to "go away in the mind" when stress happens, and/or the abuse stuff. Okay, so, if that’s not your thing, or if this doesn’t ring any bells, then I’m not sure what you would get out of reading these posts.  If it does ring some bells, stay in the game for the full faq.   Janice & Co.

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I posted this before, but don’t think it got through.  I was wondering what this group is about.  If anyone could answer if would be appreciated. Thanks Debbie

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I am writing a report for school I was woundering if anyone knew what part of the brain is affected in Dissociative identity disorder? Or do Physicans still not know?                                                                                         Thank you. In addition, I am also writing a report and was wondering what the best form of treatment for a multiple personality diorder is ?                                             Thank You!

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hi, Tara: Has your SO been evaluated neurologically for a neurological disorder known as Tourette’s Syndrome, one of the chief symptoms of which is involuntary twitching.  There is, I think, even a support group for sufferers of Tourettes Syndrome.  In more dramatic forms, symptomatology of Tourettes Syndromes involves involuntary vocalizations as well as twitching, but in its milder manifestations, Tourettes Syndrome can be characterized by involuntary twitching only. Strongly suggest and advise neurological workup at the earliest possible opportunity in this regard as there are many new and effective meds available to control if not completely eliminate the twitching. Wishing you the best and hoping the foregoing has been of some help or at least guidance. Naomi et.al.

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hi…   umm..  i was just wondering.. does anyone twich here.. if so.. could u tell me more about it… and like what happens during it…  my SO twiches… would like to know more about it… dede

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Question:

I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

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Hi I lost 50 pounds on a all natural weight loss appetite suppresent and you can to. Natural Trim Thermogenic Weight Loss Management  System. www.teamstarlight.com/JeannieDistributor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

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So far, the studies done show no real risk with normal dosing. I mean, if you took 50 in a day, and had high blood pressure… it would be too much for ya. My blood pressure is so damn low, the stuff helps me out.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

Response:

My dr informed me that taking ephedrine is dangerous… can cause heart attacks and stroke… etc… I have quit taking it, all together… stay safe and healthy… no matter what you decide! )  God bless, you! — Romans 12:2  Do not conform to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Love, Julie mykjk in message … : I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months : straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a : single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I : was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma : huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard : of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry : about or is there other things? Thanks! : : :

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In people with high blood pressure. I was advised to take it because of my low blood pressure. I can’t even find my pulse anymore it has gotten so low.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My dr informed me that taking ephedrine is dangerous… can cause heart attacks and stroke… etc… I have quit taking it, all together… stay safe and healthy… no matter what you decide! )  God bless, you! — Romans 12:2  Do not conform to the pattern of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Love, Julie mykjk in message … : I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months : straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a : single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I : was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma : huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard : of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry : about or is there other things? Thanks! : : :

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This is a repost from one of my allergy groups. Read carefully! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My dr informed me that taking ephedrine is dangerous… can cause heart attacks and stroke… etc… I have quit taking it, all together… **** [MCS-CI-exile] [Fwd: The Ephedrine, Ma-Haung issue Explained] I am going to explain this issue for the last time.  I said the deaths were from Ephedrine.  Then you sent me this paper that really confirmed what I was trying to say.  It said:  "In this table, the reference to "Ma’Haung" may be misleading as it may refer to use of a non-medical product containing ephedrine isolates." There have been very few documented problems caused by the herb Ma Haung.  The synthetic drug ephedrine, on the other hand, has caused a huge number of deaths which are documented on the website of the American Assn of Poison Control Centers.  Ephedrine is found in a slew of OTC cold preparations which anyone can walk into a drug store and buy with no prescription and there is no age requirement to buy or anything.  Why is the FDA attacking ephedra when it is Ephedrine that is the REAL problem???  Obviously, there are drug companies who don’t like Ma Huang because they feel that it is cutting into the sale of a number of prescription drugs, especially weight loss drugs. It is the synthetic drug ephedrine that is killing people, not the natural herb ephedra, which is also called Ma Huang.   Now the first email I sent you, I said it is Ephedrine causing the deaths, and I stick by that.  So if you want my official opinion its all on this post.  I know the names are confusing, ephedrine, ephedra and Ma Huang, but this is the way it is. Also, when you sent me the post with all the side effects like seizures, etc., they were all common aspartame symptoms.  So I left a message that they check and see which consumers were also using aspartame.  As it turned out, Dr. James Bowen called tonight.  He was discussing that a lot of this ADD in reality is brain deterioration from aspartame and won’t get better.  Another grave effect of this deadly neurotoxin. While he was on the phone I mentioned to him about the issue of Ma-Haung and Ephedrine, and all these symptoms that are associated with aspartame.  He said that aspartame causes chromosomal damage and if they are using it along with Ephedrine, that the Ephedrine will accelerate the hypersensitivity.  He also mentioned that for decades there was never an issue  - then aspartame was approved. —

Diva "INTELLIGENCE RECOGNIZES what has happened. Genius recognizes what will happen," wrote John Ciardi.

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This is a repost from one of my allergy groups. Read carefully!

Betty Martini is about the most well-known net-lunatic in existence. Most of the time she’s raving nonsense against aspartame, along with fake research.  She’s the author of just about every bad rumor about aspartame you’ve ever heard, has been posting them for years, and she doesn’t know diddly about ephedrine or ephedra.   (As with every topic that isn’t aspartame, she predictably shifts the blame to combining it with aspartame halfway through the article.) Please don’t forward Betty’s ravings. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

 People here have minds of their own and web browsers too and can process information, research and form their own opinions. It’s still America even though I post from Canada. Now that you have identified Betty as a raving maniac I am sure we are all fore warned.  Mark Gold got the same label for his anti sweetener crusades and in my case he was correct as cyclamates in Canadian Sweet and Low make me ill and d much has been said about the bad effects of aspartame. I hope you never get the type of chemical sensitivity that I now have. I forwarded the quote as most of it dealt with ephedrine which stackers use. You chose to just cite Betty’s quote below instead of the info that was relevant to ephedrine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a repost from one of my allergy groups. Read carefully! Betty Martini is about the most well-known net-lunatic in existence. Most of the time she’s raving nonsense against aspartame, along with fake research.  She’s the author of just about every bad rumor about aspartame you’ve ever heard, has been posting them for years, and she doesn’t know diddly about ephedrine or ephedra. (As with every topic that isn’t aspartame, she predictably shifts the blame to combining it with aspartame halfway through the article.) Please don’t forward Betty’s ravings. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

– Diva "INTELLIGENCE RECOGNIZES what has happened. Genius recognizes what will happen," wrote John Ciardi.

Response:

Well the dangers of aspartame have been documented over and over. (Primary reason nutra-sweet was spun off, to reduce liability.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a repost from one of my allergy groups. Read carefully! My dr informed me that taking ephedrine is dangerous… can cause heart attacks and stroke… etc… I have quit taking it, all together… **** [MCS-CI-exile] [Fwd: The Ephedrine, Ma-Haung issue Explained] I am going to explain this issue for the last time.  I said the deaths were from Ephedrine.  Then you sent me this paper that really confirmed what I was trying to say.  It said:  "In this table, the reference to "Ma’Haung" may be misleading as it may refer to use of a non-medical product containing ephedrine isolates." There have been very few documented problems caused by the herb Ma Haung.  The synthetic drug ephedrine, on the other hand, has caused a huge number of deaths which are documented on the website of the American Assn of Poison Control Centers.  Ephedrine is found in a slew of OTC cold preparations which anyone can walk into a drug store and buy with no prescription and there is no age requirement to buy or anything.  Why is the FDA attacking ephedra when it is Ephedrine that is the REAL problem???  Obviously, there are drug companies who don’t like Ma Huang because they feel that it is cutting into the sale of a number of prescription drugs, especially weight loss drugs. It is the synthetic drug ephedrine that is killing people, not the natural herb ephedra, which is also called Ma Huang.   Now the first email I sent you, I said it is Ephedrine causing the deaths, and I stick by that.  So if you want my official opinion its all on this post.  I know the names are confusing, ephedrine, ephedra and Ma Huang, but this is the way it is. Also, when you sent me the post with all the side effects like seizures, etc., they were all common aspartame symptoms.  So I left a message that they check and see which consumers were also using aspartame.  As it turned out, Dr. James Bowen called tonight.  He was discussing that a lot of this ADD in reality is brain deterioration from aspartame and won’t get better.  Another grave effect of this deadly neurotoxin. While he was on the phone I mentioned to him about the issue of Ma-Haung and Ephedrine, and all these symptoms that are associated with aspartame.  He said that aspartame causes chromosomal damage and if they are using it along with Ephedrine, that the Ephedrine will accelerate the hypersensitivity.  He also mentioned that for decades there was never an issue  - then aspartame was approved. — Diva "INTELLIGENCE RECOGNIZES what has happened. Genius recognizes what will happen," wrote John Ciardi.

Response:

The studies show that there is a transient rise in blood pressure that lasts about 3-4 weeks, after which pressure returns to normal. Side effects can be reduced by starting EC or ECA in a lower dose and increasing it later on. In controlled weight loss studies on both regular and herbal versions there were no mentions of heart attack or stroke. I’ve written extensively on ephedrine and weight loss, and also attempts by the FDA to regulate ephedra due to adverse event reports (AERs). Last year I read approximately 150 scholarly articles on this subject. References to my year 2000 articles are listed below. Ephedrine and thermogenesis. Obesity Meds and Research News (OMR) 2000 Jun;4(6). Ephedra supplements and weight loss. OMR 2000 Nov;4(11). More on ephedra supplements and weight loss. OMR 2000 Nov; 4(11). Ephedrine and caffeine and the b-3 receptor.  OMR 2000 Nov; 4(11). The FDA and ephedra regulation. OMR 2000 Apr; 4(5). Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

My dr informed me that taking ephedrine is dangerous… can cause heart attacks and stroke… etc… I have quit taking it, all together…

This is why it is *imperative* that you read the label of any supplement that you decide to take, to see what the proper dosage is, and to see if there are any contraindications that you should not take it. Highly recommended reading about ephedra and ECA stacks: http://members.home.net/sde1/ec.html Tirya

Response:

Oranges are biological, aspartame is chemical. I’ll team up with Mark and Dry Martini on this particular issue. thanks for being sorry about me.  Believe me so am I. When i told God I’d do anything to be slim, she believed me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now that you have identified Betty as a raving maniac I am sure we are all fore warned.  Mark Gold got the same label for his anti sweetener crusades and in my case he was correct as cyclamates in Canadian Sweet and Low make me ill and d much has been said about the bad effects of aspartame. Mark is a disciple of Betty’s, and just about everything on his site was copied from Betty’s. I hope you never get the type of chemical sensitivity that I now have. Sorry you’re having such trouble with them, but Betty and Mark are anti-manmade-sweetener crusaders, and full of bull.  (e.g. they constantly say on the one hand that aspartame breakdown products "build up" in the body, to toxic levels, and then they turn around and give example of people whose conditions were relieved as soon as they stopped using aspartame. Well, which is it?  If it causes a build up, it’s not going to just go away immediately. Whenever it’s pointed out to her that there’s more methanol in an orange than in the breakdown from a can of aspartame soda, she says that the ethanol also in the orange makes it safe.  When I asked her on a mailing list if a rum and diet Coke oughta be just as safe, she refused to answer. I forwarded the quote as most of it dealt with ephedrine which stackers use. You chose to just cite Betty’s quote below instead of the info that was relevant to ephedrine. Betty’s statements make it clear that she doesn’t know diddly squat about ephedrine or ephedra.  It’s not relevant to anyone but Betty. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

– Diva "INTELLIGENCE RECOGNIZES what has happened. Genius recognizes what will happen," wrote John Ciardi.

Response:

Now that you have identified Betty as a raving maniac I am sure we are all fore warned.  Mark Gold got the same label for his anti sweetener crusades and in my case he was correct as cyclamates in Canadian Sweet and Low make me ill and d much has been said about the bad effects of aspartame.

Mark is a disciple of Betty’s, and just about everything on his site was copied from Betty’s. I hope you never get the type of chemical sensitivity that I now have.

Sorry you’re having such trouble with them, but Betty and Mark are anti-manmade-sweetener crusaders, and full of bull.  (e.g. they constantly say on the one hand that aspartame breakdown products "build up" in the body, to toxic levels, and then they turn around and give example of people whose conditions were relieved as soon as they stopped using aspartame. Well, which is it?  If it causes a build up, it’s not going to just go away immediately. Whenever it’s pointed out to her that there’s more methanol in an orange than in the breakdown from a can of aspartame soda, she says that the ethanol also in the orange makes it safe.  When I asked her on a mailing list if a rum and diet Coke oughta be just as safe, she refused to answer. I forwarded the quote as most of it dealt with ephedrine which stackers use. You chose to just cite Betty’s quote below instead of the info that was relevant to ephedrine.

Betty’s statements make it clear that she doesn’t know diddly squat about ephedrine or ephedra.  It’s not relevant to anyone but Betty. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So far, the studies done show no real risk with normal dosing. I mean, if you took 50 in a day, and had high blood pressure… it would be too much for ya. My blood pressure is so damn low, the stuff helps me out. I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

I don’t know any medical facts here, only what I know from when I worked at the 7-11 and therefore had access to ephedrin at half-price.  The losing weight part was great (every 2 weeks I lost about 15 lbs.) – but, I found myself not sleepin well, being jittery, shaking, and even sometimes vomitting when I tried to take the pill.  (Maybe because I was shaking so much I’d spill the water on myself and not swallow it.)  Now, the pills I was taking were designed as o.t.c. asthma medication, and probably not to be taken as often as I was (I was up to 8 pills a day, 2 more than the label’s highest recommendation) – and it was and still is the only thing I was *ever* physically addicted too.  I got to a point where I couldn’t function without the ephedrin, I’d take one before breakfast, one after breakfast – etc. etc. So like I said, I can’t tell you any medical data, just what I found out from taking it myself.  Keep in mind the ephedrin is a "legalized" version of speed basically – so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were heart and nerve complications further on. Oh well, back to reading all these posts. Confused Angel.

Response:

Now, the pills I was taking were designed as o.t.c. asthma medication, and probably not to be taken as often as I was (I was up to 8 pills a day, 2 more than the label’s highest recommendation) – and it was and still is the only thing I was *ever* physically addicted too.  I got to a point where I couldn’t function without the ephedrin, I’d take one before breakfast, one after breakfast – etc. etc.

Boy, you really are a confused angel. There is no substance on the face of the earth that isn’t dangerous if taken in huge doses. Not even water (it can throw you into electrolyte imbalance). If you’re going to abuse drugs, yes — that’s dangerous. This should come as no surprise to anyone. So like I said, I can’t tell you any medical data, just what I found out from taking it myself.  Keep in mind the ephedrin is a "legalized" version of speed basically – so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were heart and nerve complications further on.

I would keep that in mind, save that you are utterly and completely wrong. Drugs that could be categorized as "speed" stimulate dopamine reward pathways. Cocaine, heroin fall in this category. There are no otc drugs that have that sort of abuse potential, although as you pointed out, if you take way more than the recommended dose, you can get mighty sick. 20 mg x 3  (i.e., 60 mg per day) is the maximum dose of ephedrine you should be taking for weight loss. The maximum dose for asthma is 150 mg per day. So if you were exceeding that dose, it’s no wonder you were bouncing off the walls. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

Ephedrine is the main ingredient in Primatene, an over the counter asthma medicine.  Where are you located? — Melissa 140/126?/122?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – only what I know from when I worked at the 7-11 and therefore had access to ephedrin at half-price. You can get ephedrine at a 7-11 inthe states?!!! Woah!  We have to have a presciption for that stuff here. Oh, and welcome!!  Look forward to getting to know you! Del

Response:

only what I know from when I worked at the 7-11 and therefore had access to ephedrin at half-price.

You can get ephedrine at a 7-11 inthe states?!!! Woah!  We have to have a presciption for that stuff here. Oh, and welcome!!  Look forward to getting to know you! Del

Response:

Country Victoria.  The Doc won’t co-operate, and the pharmacist plays dumb. How about pure ephedrine?  What’s the dose in that asthma med?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – only what I know from when I worked at the 7-11 and therefore had access to ephedrin at half-price. You can get ephedrine at a 7-11 inthe states?!!! Woah!  We have to have a presciption for that stuff here. Oh, and welcome!!  Look forward to getting to know you! Del

Response:

I’ve started taking a product called "Xetalean" that is supposedly comparably to Xenadrine.  It’s basically an ECA stack product. I’m 44 yrs old and my metabolism needs a little more help than I get with the amount of exercise I can do without making myself too sore.  I’ve been taking 1 tablet before breakfast and 1 mid-afternoon, instead of the 2 tablets each time that the label recommends.  The label says 2 tablets have 335 mg of Ma Huang extract.  I don’t know how much straight ephedrin that would be.  What I’ve noticed is that it has helped keep my energy levels up.  I had been getting so sleepy by mid-afternoon that I would need a nap.  I don’t need my nap since starting it but the first couple of days, I found it hard to get to sleep at night.  That problem may not have had anything to do with the Xetalean and I’m sleeping OK now.  I don’t think I’m anywhere near getting addicted to it.  I don’t plan to go to the recommended dosage so I think I’ll be OK.  :-) How many other people in the group are trying the same thing?  I’d like to know what your experience has been like. Tonia

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now, the pills I was taking were designed as o.t.c. asthma medication, and probably not to be taken as often as I was (I was up to 8 pills a day, 2 more than the label’s highest recommendation) – and it was and still is the only thing I was *ever* physically addicted too.  I got to a point where I couldn’t function without the ephedrin, I’d take one before breakfast, one after breakfast – etc. etc. Boy, you really are a confused angel. There is no substance on the face of the earth that isn’t dangerous if taken in huge doses. Not even water (it can throw you into electrolyte imbalance). If you’re going to abuse drugs, yes — that’s dangerous. This should come as no surprise to anyone. So like I said, I can’t tell you any medical data, just what I found out from taking it myself.  Keep in mind the ephedrin is a "legalized" version of speed basically – so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were heart and nerve complications further on. I would keep that in mind, save that you are utterly and completely wrong. Drugs that could be categorized as "speed" stimulate dopamine reward pathways. Cocaine, heroin fall in this category. There are no otc drugs that have that sort of abuse potential, although as you pointed out, if you take way more than the recommended dose, you can get mighty sick. 20 mg x 3  (i.e., 60 mg per day) is the maximum dose of ephedrine you should be taking for weight loss. The maximum dose for asthma is 150 mg per day. So if you were exceeding that dose, it’s no wonder you were bouncing off the walls. Barbara Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

I’ve been taking 1 tablet before breakfast and 1 mid-afternoon, instead of the 2 tablets each time that the label recommends.  The label says 2 tablets have 335 mg of Ma Huang extract.  I don’t know how much straight ephedrin that would be.  What I’ve noticed is that it has helped keep my energy levels up.  I had been getting so sleepy by mid-afternoon that I would need a nap.  I don’t need my nap since starting it but the first couple of days, I found it hard to get to sleep at night.  That problem may not have had anything to do with the Xetalean and I’m sleeping OK now.  I don’t think I’m anywhere near getting addicted to it.  I don’t plan to go to the recommended dosage so I think I’ll be OK.  :-)

You can’t be positively sure, but in most herbal ECA stacks, 335mg of ephedra/ma huang is intended to contain 20mg ephedrine.  Although in actual testing, the amounts may sometimes be significantly more or significantly less in herbals. You will likely build up a tolerance to the "energy" side effects after a couple of weeks, unless you cycle on and off it.   One does not build up a tolerance to the thermogenic effects, though. Ephedrine isn’t addictive, though the caffeine can have nasty withdrawal effects unless you taper off caffeine. —                 "There’s a seeker born every minute."

Response:

Side effects: elevated blood pressure, stroke, paranoia, psychological dependence. I finally got off the stuff recently after taking it for several years. It works but at what price?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

Response:

You will likely build up a tolerance to the "energy" side effects after a couple of weeks, unless you cycle on and off it.   One does not build up a tolerance to the thermogenic effects, though.

That’s exactly what I’ve found. After 2 weeks, I no longer had the urge to run through the streets doing summersaults after taking 24mg. Now I just get a warm, cozy feeling. No increased heart rate really. I just get a little bit warm. — Joe 323/308/200 http://www.ogrevalley.com

Response:

I took it for about 2 1/2 years with out knowing the hazards. I did lose weight.  About 60 lbs. I also had a major heart attack. the doctor restarted me twice in the emergency room that night.  And I did see the bright lights. I had a cardiac catheter, 2 angioplastys, and a heart stent put in my chest.  Elephants were walking on my chest. hippopotamus were tap dancing on my sternum. It gives you no warning of coming on, You don’t even see the battle cruiser as it rolls over you. I put all the weight back on PLUS more. and being a heart patient makes you very SLOW. Is this a hint ???? Bruce Walker – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Side effects: elevated blood pressure, stroke, paranoia, psychological dependence. I finally got off the stuff recently after taking it for several years. It works but at what price? I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

Response:

What an eye opener Bruce!!  I hope you are doing better now!  I know that losing weight is a problem but it can be handled.  I bought a quickstart program from this site and it helped me lose 10 pounds!  I also feel more energy because it changed the way I eat!  Not a regular diet that depletes all your nutrients.  The site also has great tips. www.healthy-weightloss.com  Good luck and let me know how it works for you!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took it for about 2 1/2 years with out knowing the hazards. I did lose weight.  About 60 lbs. I also had a major heart attack. the doctor restarted me twice in the emergency room that night.  And I did see the bright lights. I had a cardiac catheter, 2 angioplastys, and a heart stent put in my chest.  Elephants were walking on my chest. hippopotamus were tap dancing on my sternum. It gives you no warning of coming on, You don’t even see the battle cruiser as it rolls over you. I put all the weight back on PLUS more. and being a heart patient makes you very SLOW. Is this a hint ???? Bruce Walker Side effects: elevated blood pressure, stroke, paranoia, psychological dependence. I finally got off the stuff recently after taking it for several years. It works but at what price? I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

Response:

I’m sorry to hear about your heart attack Bruce.  I lost my father last year to heart disease. I wonder though…there are many issues that cause heart disease.   How was it proven that ephedra products caused yours?  Did you have other problems such as high blood pressure or high cholesterol?  Did heart disease run in your family?  Was your doctor aware that you were using ephedra and did you only use the correct dose? Melissa 140/119/115 New Goal

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took it for about 2 1/2 years with out knowing the hazards. I did lose weight.  About 60 lbs. I also had a major heart attack. the doctor restarted me twice in the emergency room that night.  And I did see the bright lights. I had a cardiac catheter, 2 angioplastys, and a heart stent put in my chest.  Elephants were walking on my chest. hippopotamus were tap dancing on my sternum. It gives you no warning of coming on, You don’t even see the battle cruiser as it rolls over you. I put all the weight back on PLUS more. and being a heart patient makes you very SLOW. Is this a hint ???? Bruce Walker Side effects: elevated blood pressure, stroke, paranoia, psychological dependence. I finally got off the stuff recently after taking it for several years. It works but at what price? I have been taking Xenadrine and the like products for about 6 months straight. I usually do 5 days on and 2 days off per week. Im only taking a single capsule per day which is less then 1/3 of the recommended doseage. I was wondering what the long term side effects of using ephedrine and ma huang based products are if taken over a long period of time? I have heard of heart problems being associated with it but is this all I have to worry about or is there other things? Thanks!

Response:

Question:

Hi Bronsing, I was just pointing out another ( more common ) use for those meds. What point did the ,meds really have with adoption anyhow. I was just adding my knowledge to the mix. As for my interest in adoption… I’m a birthmother. Currently reuniting with my three adult "kids" who were basically stolen from me when they were 6, 7, & 9 years old. It’s something I have been fighting a long time. They were abused by the people who took them. It’s an ugly story… I just found them last year. It’s been almost 11 years. The name I use "Orbus" reflects my anguish. Peace Orbus – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi orbus. what does this posting have to do with being adopted? You are right about the meds, but what has it to do with adoption? These are both very common meds in the use of preventing epileptic seizures. How do I know? I have been on these and other meds for this very reason. Prescribed bt my Neurologists over the years. I’m surprised no ione has mentioned that one..it’s soobvious. I too have asthma…However, due to the anticonvulsant meds and the epilepsy itself.I have to stay away from stimulants. Therefore I cannot take over the counter asthma meds or inhalers. I use Aerobid inhaler as a preventative measure.It;s a prescription inhaler..nonacute type. oh well…thanks for your time…. Orbus — Before you buy. — Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

– Before you buy.

Response:

These are both very common meds in the use of preventing epileptic seizures. How do I know? I have been on these and other meds for this very reason. Prescribed bt my Neurologists over the years. I’m surprised no ione has mentioned that one..it’s soobvious. I too have asthma…However, due to the anticonvulsant meds and the epilepsy itself.I have to stay away from stimulants. Therefore I cannot take over the counter asthma meds or inhalers. I use Aerobid inhaler as a preventative measure.It;s a prescription inhaler..nonacute type. oh well…thanks for your time…. Orbus — Before you buy.

Response:

Hi orbus. what does this posting have to do with being adopted? You are right about the meds, but what has it to do with adoption? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These are both very common meds in the use of preventing epileptic seizures. How do I know? I have been on these and other meds for this very reason. Prescribed bt my Neurologists over the years. I’m surprised no ione has mentioned that one..it’s soobvious. I too have asthma…However, due to the anticonvulsant meds and the epilepsy itself.I have to stay away from stimulants. Therefore I cannot take over the counter asthma meds or inhalers. I use Aerobid inhaler as a preventative measure.It;s a prescription inhaler..nonacute type. oh well…thanks for your time…. Orbus — Before you buy.

– Robert Bronsing ‘In the beginning, the file was without form, and void; and emptiness was upon the face of the bits. And the Fingers of the Author moved upon the face of the keyboard. And the Author said: ‘Let there be words’, and there were words’ from the Linux System Administrators Guide

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.diet Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Two things: 1.  While cruising by the Metabolife cart the other day, I noticed a big sign that says, "YOU MUST BE 18 OR OLDER TO PURCHASE."  I asked the clerk, and he said some local teens took a handful of pills and ended up in the emergency room.  Mommie and Daddie said they wouldn’t sue if they put a warning label up. I thought it was pretty funny…… showing your ID for a non-controlled substance… and like there would be any reprocussions?  It’s not like they would be selling beer to a minor… just overpriced Metabolife. 2.  I’ve been on DietFuel for about two weeks now, and was on Metabolife for a month prior.  I noticed I have tons more energy with DietFuel, but it doesn’t seem to curb my appetite at all…. I am starving by midday….  Should I try something else, or modify what I’m taking? </PRE</HTML

Perhaps the following info I found may help answer some of your questions? <<   Rich

Question:

Mitch my reply was that acclimating  helps – not the cure. Good general indoor or outdoor conditioning helps Scott Coulter Outdoor Excursions

Response:

Are you sure that the cold air is the problem?  I have found that my aerobic capacity doesn’t change when xc skiing at -19 below windchill.

Wind-chill has no meaning for inhaled air. It could be exercise-induced asthma, a common problem. If the shortness of breath is accompanied by exercise, see your doc about trying an inhaler. Alternatively, you could try one of those over-the-counter asthma meds, but actually they are much more dangerous than the Rx meds, so be careful. John

Response:

Today the blood is partly cloudy.  There are numerous fronts which may move in.   There’s one that includes steak, fries, bread with drippings. Hmm, three fried eggs, bacon & sausage, buttered toast. Another shows lunchmeat sandwich and a quart of ice cream. There’s another… spagetti with showers of spicy red pepper or roasted green pepper Classico meatless spagetti sauce.   Possibly mini Shredded Wheats with skim milk. Will update the forecast after several fronts move through. (not intended to precipitate sea kayaker jokes) sam heinrich   erols.com/carboburnr – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Cross-posted several places.) Help!–Short of breath in cold air. I seem to be easily tired and made short of breath when paddling in cold air.  Coulter told me this is because lungs contract in the cold and can not exchange oxygen well. I am looking for fixes for this problem.   As I recall, backpackers sometimes wear scarves, which function as simple heat exchangers, warming up the incoming air with the outgoing breath.  But I sometimes get immersed, and I guess a soaked scarf wouldn’t do anything but make me colder. Is there some similar technique for paddlers? (Coulter said lots of exercise in cold conditions is the only cure.)

Response:

(Cross-posted several places.) Help!–Short of breath in cold air. I seem to be easily tired and made short of breath when paddling in cold air.  Coulter told me this is because lungs contract in the cold and can not exchange oxygen well. I am looking for fixes for this problem.   As I recall, backpackers sometimes wear scarves, which function as simple heat exchangers, warming up the incoming air with the outgoing breath.  But I sometimes get immersed, and I guess a soaked scarf wouldn’t do anything but make me colder. Is there some similar technique for paddlers? (Coulter said lots of exercise in cold conditions is the only cure.)

Response:

Question:

Major drawback of pseudo-ephedrine?  INCREASE IN BLOOD PRESSURE to critical level in certain individuals.  If you’re gonna stack take the trouble to find ephedra.  Do a search on "dymetadrine" which is a mixture of ephedrine 25 mg. and guafinesin 100 mg.  Guafinesin is a decongestant used in cold remedies and dymetadrine is ‘cut’ with it to discourage its use in manufacturing street drugs.  Pseudoephedrine Tablets   Children’s dose   30 mg (Pseudoephedrine  Example: Sudafed

Question:

Hey Everyone, I did NOT know I had posted SO many times!! Stephanie, I’m very sorry–I did not mean to be THAT emphatic!!! I’m clearly still a newbie at this newsgroup business–ACK! Mary

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Hey Everyone, I did NOT know I had posted SO many times!! Stephanie, I’m very sorry–I did not mean to be THAT emphatic!!! I’m clearly still a newbie at this newsgroup business–ACK! Mary

Don’t worry about it.  Everyone screws up once in a while.

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Mary, I think that you were not too hot, not too cold, but just right! Keep on, do not change a thing! I think parents who had daughters, etc., die from them–yes, DIE from taking them, too many or experiencing interactions with other drugs…..that info. popped up last year after the young model Krissy Taylor died, for there is a group like the diet pill one, for over the counter asthma inhalers, which they said, experts, doctors, that it somehow affected her Krissy negatively, fatally. hugs, Emily

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Question:

: OK, I’ll begin with a confession: I sometimes take Primatene tablets : (130 mg theophylline, 24 mg ephedrine hydrochloride, sold non- : prescription in the US). … : Seriously, though, I can’t remember anyone mentioning this particular : OTC medication in this group.  Am I the only one dumb enough to have : ever tried it, or are there other closet users out there? They sell a lot of it.  I’m not a current user, but I have used it before I really knew what I was doing. I still take theophylline, in time-release form, once a night before bed.  Theophylline is still prescribed a lot, but much of the current medical thinking is that it is most effective in time-release form. You need to be careful with it because the effective dose isn’t all that far away from a dose where toxic effects are felt.  Effects like… jitters, cold sweat, nausea… fun stuff like that.  I’ve been there, but not under my current regimen. I don’t take ephedrine any more, but I still take Sudafed or its generic equivalent sometimes, and it’s "pseudoephedrine" which I believe is pretty closely related.  It is a stimulant, of course. Dehydration is indeed something to be watched.  I don’t live in the desert climes, like you, but I do triathlons in the summer, so I understand the threat.  I always know I’m getting into trouble when I STOP SWEATING – even though I’m running and it’s hot. Is there some reason you don’t want to talk to an MD?  They can prescribe better stuff nowadays.  Treatment has changed a fair amount in the past twenty years. John Enright, N.A.D.    (Not A Doctor   —

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Hi guys, If Primatene is such a ‘dangerous’ medication, how come the US Govt allows it to be sold over-the-counter? I am really scared now because I use primatene as a supplement to my Ventolin Inhaler!! Any thoughts? — |  Olu Emuleomo                 <  MERRILL LYNCH & Co., Inc.          | |                               <  SECURITY PRICING SYSTEM                | |  TEL: (212) 449-1688          <  WORLD FINANCIAL CENTER, NORTH TOWER    | |  FAX: (212) 449-9170          <  14th FLOOR, SouthWest Corner   |

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OK, I’ll begin with a confession: I sometimes take Primatene tablets (130 mg theophylline, 24 mg ephedrine hydrochloride, sold non- prescription in the US).  I expect that readers of this group are now gasping in horror, and in fact I’m posting about Primatene tabs partly because I’m hoping someone will say something godawful enough about them to help me wean myself from them for good.  And partly because, ironically, there’s currently a rather heavy TV campaign in the US right now advertising them.

Well, my doc told me that the over-the-counter bronchodialators were *much* more radical than the prescript variety like Proventil or Ventolin, and could kill me easier, so I’ve never been tempted. (Course, I didn’t know I had asthma when I went to the doc complaining about my coughing and shortness of breath, so I never thought of an OTC asthma remedy as a solution.) —

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Seriously, though, I can’t remember anyone mentioning this particular OTC medication in this group.  Am I the only one dumb enough to have ever tried it, or are there other closet users out there?

Well, when I first became asthmatic, I asked my doctor about the stuff, and what he told me was: don’t *ever* take the pills, and use the inhalator only in case of an emergency, when you’re having an attack and don’t have a safe inhalator handy… At the time, I had some terrible experiences with both ephinephrine, and theophyllin, and was easily convinced… I can’t imagine putting them into my body voluntarily. (I took theophyl. for several weeks after a doctor at UD prescribed it to me. After three weeks of not sleeping at all, and seeing no difference in my asthma, I went to my real doctor, and he took me right off the stuff, and said it was stupid to have put me on it to begin with. And the epinephrine, they gave me in the hospital one night when I couldn’t breath – and I frankly have a terribly difficult time imagining how anything could be more unpleasant than getting injected with epinephrine!) Get off the stuff! Go see your doctor, and find something *safe* to treat your asthma!         <MC — || Mark Craig Chu-Carroll: <MC ||"We the people are getting tired of your lies || CIS Grad, Univ of Delaware   || We the people now believe that it’s time || PGP key available by finger  || We’re demanding our rights to the answers

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: OK, I’ll begin with a confession: I sometimes take Primatene tablets : (130 mg theophylline, 24 mg ephedrine hydrochloride, sold non- : prescription in the US).  I expect that readers of this group are now : gasping in horror, and in fact I’m posting about Primatene tabs partly : because I’m hoping someone will say something godawful enough about them : to help me wean myself from them for good.  And partly because, : ironically, there’s currently a rather heavy TV campaign in the US right : now advertising them. Theophylline and aminophylline are in the same class of drugs as caffeine (if you are really curious, they are all methylxanthines whose mode of action is phophodiesterase inhibition, which increases cellular levels of cAMP).  This is why a stong cup of coffee can be quite helpful for an asthma attack.  Theophylline is very effective–the problem is obtaining therapeutic blood levels.  Theophylline’s therapeutic index is very narrow.  What this means is that doses that are high enough to be effective are also very close to levels that are high enough to be toxic and cause quite a few unpleasant (to downright nasty) side effects.  In fact, for some people, toxic levels are reached before therapeutic levels are reached.  Some prescription formulations of theophylline/aminophylline are time-released to avoid high peak levels of drug and thereby minimize the unpleasant side effects without affecting the therapeutic effects. The problem with over the counter asthma inhalers that contain epinephrine is similar.  They can be very effective, but the never drugs are much safer (especially to the heart) than old-fashioned epinephrine/adrenaline. Ephedrine is a pretty effective decongestant.  However, if you also take "allergy pills" along with primatene "asthma pills" you may get an overdose of ephedrine, because allergy pills often contain an antihistamine plus a decongestant (which may be ephedrine).

Response:

OK, I’ll begin with a confession: I sometimes take Primatene tablets (130 mg theophylline, 24 mg ephedrine hydrochloride, sold non- prescription in the US).  I expect that readers of this group are now gasping in horror, and in fact I’m posting about Primatene tabs partly because I’m hoping someone will say something godawful enough about them to help me wean myself from them for good.  And partly because, ironically, there’s currently a rather heavy TV campaign in the US right now advertising them. I do find that they’re effective in reducing the rare asthma attack from allergens I mostly avoid (heavy house dust & dogs), but otherwise pretty useless.  No question that the big hook is the stimulant buzz they provide, which is habituating if not outright addictive.  (And of course ma huang / ephedra is the main ingredient in all the "natural" energy pills these days.) The dangers of their stimulant side effects to people with heart conditions and so on are, I take it, well known, but I thought I’d mention what seems to be another potentially lethal danger they pose to otherwise healthy people in hot weather.  The two times in the last couple of years I’ve come close to heat exhaustion both involved strenuous exercise after taking Primatene.  Theophylline is a diuretic and ephedrine, I gather, raises body core temperature, so with that combination you’re basically defeating your body’s mechanism for coping with high temperatures. I’m kind of scandalized that there’s no hint of this among the warnings on the label, but when I did a MEDLINE search I discovered that there wasn’t much literature on diuresis or heat sensitivity as side effects of theophylline and/or ephedrine–one article I remember from a sportsmedicine journal noted problems with theophylline and hot weather. May if some pharmaceutical company officers would join me on an all-day hike in southern Arizona, taking their recommended dosages of the tablets… <wicked grin Seriously, though, I can’t remember anyone mentioning this particular OTC medication in this group.  Am I the only one dumb enough to have ever tried it, or are there other closet users out there? — RADIOCARBON, Dep’t of Geosciences, U of Arizona |  soul is wisest and best."                                                 |           –Heraclitus

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?   I have the same problem.  When most people are experiencing their most pleasant cooler-weather runs, I’m miserable.  I seem to get it worst when the temps are right around the 50-60 degree mark.   Colder than that, I’m fine. I’ve never had asthma in my life, but have had allergies.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I’ve considered trying a couple blasts from one of those Primatine Mist things.

I replied to Leah by e-mail, I guess I should have posted.  I have what has been diagnosed as exertional asthma – I have trouble breathing when it gets cold and when I exercise hard.  I take prescription inhalers to combat the evil wheezes (I get them all year round, otherwise).  This problem didn’t develop until I was 20, and then it took 2 years to diagnose (I spent 4 months on antibiotics!).  If you have similar problems, I would suggest that you see a doctor.  As I told Leah, better safe than gasping for air 4 miles from home.

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 In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?    Thanks in advance!

I have the same problem.  When most people are experiencing their most pleasant cooler-weather runs, I’m miserable.  I seem to get it worst when the temps are right around the 50-60 degree mark.   Colder than that, I’m fine. I’ve never had asthma in my life, but have had allergies.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I’ve considered trying a couple blasts from one of those Primatine Mist things. —   *** CAS is definitely not ***          2540 Olentangy River Road   *** responsible for these ***          Columbus, Ohio 43210   ***       comments        ***          (614) 447-3600 x2664

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  In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?     Thanks in advance!

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?   I have the same problem.  When most people are experiencing their most pleasant cooler-weather runs, I’m miserable.  I seem to get it worst when the temps are right around the 50-60 degree mark.   Colder than that, I’m fine. I’ve never had asthma in my life, but have had allergies.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I’ve considered trying a couple blasts from one of those Primatine Mist things.

I replied to Leah by e-mail, I guess I should have posted.  I have what has been diagnosed as exertional asthma – I have trouble breathing when it gets cold and when I exercise hard.  I take prescription inhalers to combat the evil wheezes (I get them all year round, otherwise).  This problem didn’t develop until I was 20, and then it took 2 years to diagnose (I spent 4 months on antibiotics!).  If you have similar problems, I would suggest that you see a doctor.  As I told Leah, better safe than gasping for air 4 miles from home.

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 In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?    Thanks in advance!

I have the same problem.  When most people are experiencing their most pleasant cooler-weather runs, I’m miserable.  I seem to get it worst when the temps are right around the 50-60 degree mark.   Colder than that, I’m fine. I’ve never had asthma in my life, but have had allergies.  I have no idea what to do about this.  I’ve considered trying a couple blasts from one of those Primatine Mist things. —   *** CAS is definitely not ***          2540 Olentangy River Road   *** responsible for these ***          Columbus, Ohio 43210   ***       comments        ***          (614) 447-3600 x2664

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  In the fall have trouble breathing when I run.  It’s almost like I’m having an asthma attack.  It only happens when I run and only in September or October.  Does anyone else have this problem?  I’m guessing it might be caused by allergies.  As a kid I used to have asthma and had my worst attacks in the fall.  Does anyone have suggestions for over the counter asthma medication that I can take before running?     Thanks in advance!

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