Question:
… he continues to rail against aspartame as if it was inherently dangerous to everyone (e.g. his titling it "Nutramigraine" and claiming "toxicity") while admitting he AFAIK, Aaron has never claimed toxicity for anyone other than himself.
"If it is toxic to one person, it is, by definition, toxic. Many people are, fortunately, immune to toxins." And given that he’s written things like, "I look forward to seeing the elimation (sic) of that damned red spiral", it seems clear to me that he’s concerned about far more than mere labeling issues. And statements like "What bugs me about aspartame is that the lobby ELIMINATED all the alternatives in short order" smack of paranoia, IMHO. If it causes him bad migraines, why shouldn’t he call it Nutramigraine?
He calls it "Nutradeath" on his web site. Has it caused him death? Considering the sheer dominance of aspartame, to the point of nearly obliterating the alternatives, in the sugarfree product market (I’m referring to sodas and packaged products, not sweetener itself)
Exactly. You’re talking about *convenience foods*, not necessities of life. There are, and always have been, alternatives (which are generally healthier and lower cost anyway). (And given that this argument started in the lowcarb group, lowcarbers can certainly appreciate what it’s like to have few convenience foods that WE can tolerate.) several years until just the last few months, I think those of us who cannot tolerate it for one reason or other have a legitimate beef about the restriction of our diet choices. They even added aspartame to Tab, while keeping it partially saccharine, which was just about the last holdout of non-aspartame diet soda.
Right. But as with any food allergy, the "majority rules" in the market. Tab reformulated because they weren’t selling enough with the saccharin formula. But again, there are lots of alternative drinks. I’m an iced tea drinker, myself; in many areas of North America, you cannot find unsweetened tea in restaurants. So I substitute, make my own, or go without. That’s life. ANYONE with ANY food allergy has to go through this. That’s why reading labels are important, and why products get recalled if potential allergens such as peanuts are included in food items without them being so labeled. Has it even occurred to you, with the predominance of Jello gelatin and Jello pudding dessert on this group that anyone who can’t tolerate aspartame can’t use any of those recipes at all? Nor Crystal Light, nor All-Bran Extra Fiber, nor DaVinci sugarfree syrups, nor most brands of protein powder shake mix, the list goes on and on.
I understand completely… and again, market perception and the tastes of the majority drove this evolution. Most products give consumer feedback information/addresses (sometimes even 800 numbers) right on their labels. Have you complained to the manufacturers (especially now that Splenda and Acesulfame-K are available)? Did they respond? What did they say? Did you write your local supermarket asking them to carry alternative products? (I have.) (And on the gelatin front: most ALSO have citric acid, which can have adverse reactions in some people. So, I ask politely that they consider reformulating with Splenda and without citric acid… and maybe if enough others do too, we’ll see changes.) I’m thrilled that you enjoy aspartame products, and find them superior in taste to saccharin products. But I think most people would choose a bitter aftertaste over a severe headache, and the saccharin alternatives just have not been there for several years, except for sweetener itself.
And most people would choose a severe headache over cancer. (And keep in mind that once the FDA, rightly OR wrongly, called saccharin a cancer risk, companies have to start thinking of potential LEGAL EXPOSURE of continuing with products including that carcinogen. "But there’s a clear warning label!", you say? Well, that defense has apparently ceased to work for Big Tobacco… why wouldn’t Big Chemical be next?) Only very recently have products that are exclusively ace-K or sucralose sweetened started to emerge.
Right, and I predict that demand for these will drive aspartame out of the retail market over time, unless medical risks are found for them. or not at his pleasure, but when he makes specific "scientific" claims about it, he should expect to have his claims challenged. For all any of us knows, he could be reacting to the specific blue dye used in the packet! I’ve never seen Aaron make any "scientific" claims about it, and last I looked, Diet Coke didn’t come in a blue packet.
It’s quotes like "My SCIENTIFIC (emphasis mine) studies show that if I drink 3 aspartame-laden diet colas on Sunday, I am unable to return to work until Wednesday or Thursday." that sure look to me like he’s trying to make "scientific" claims! Again, *look* at his web page, then tell me he’s not trying to make "scientific" claims. Soft drink manufacturers didn’t shift to aspartame as their primary AS out of some evil plot or out of some unholy alliance with Monsanto or Searle… they were following market demand. (Aspartame was considerably MORE expensive than saccharin at the time most drinks switched — you don’t add to your cost of goods for no reason.) Now that Splenda is available, I predict we will see the exact same market behavior there, and Splenda will eventually take over the retail AS market… but not due to an evil Johnson & Johnson plot, either. Plenty of people get headaches from aspartame, just like plenty of people get headaches from MSG. Are you also out railing that Chinese restaurants shouldn’t offer no-MSG options just because you or most people don’t have problems with it?
Not at all! I’m saying it’s unfair for you to picket your local Chinese restaurant with a sign saying THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO KILL YOU. By all means, people should be free to choose. (Most restaurants in my area specifically do NOT use MSG and say so on their menus. Why? Because of market demand.) — Scott yosemite at accesscom.com Atkins induction 2/4/99 341/315/200 "I don’t care how it sounded, as long as it was the truth." – Fox Mulder
Response:
Frankly, I don’t *care* what his reactions are to aspartame, or whether they are physiological or psychological… he continues to rail against aspartame as if it was inherently dangerous to everyone (e.g. his titling it "Nutramigraine" and claiming "toxicity") while admitting he
AFAIK, Aaron has never claimed toxicity for anyone other than himself. If it causes him bad migraines, why shouldn’t he call it Nutramigraine? Considering the sheer dominance of aspartame, to the point of nearly obliterating the alternatives, in the sugarfree product market (I’m referring to sodas and packaged products, not sweetener itself) for several years until just the last few months, I think those of us who cannot tolerate it for one reason or other have a legitimate beef about the restriction of our diet choices. They even added aspartame to Tab, while keeping it partially saccharine, which was just about the last holdout of non-aspartame diet soda. Has it even occurred to you, with the predominance of Jello gelatin and Jello pudding dessert on this group that anyone who can’t tolerate aspartame can’t use any of those recipes at all? Nor Crystal Light, nor All-Bran Extra Fiber, nor DaVinci sugarfree syrups, nor most brands of protein powder shake mix, the list goes on and on. I’m thrilled that you enjoy aspartame products, and find them superior in taste to saccharin products. But I think most people would choose a bitter aftertaste over a severe headache, and the saccharin alternatives just have not been there for several years, except for sweetener itself. Only very recently have products that are exclusively ace-K or sucralose sweetened started to emerge. or not at his pleasure, but when he makes specific "scientific" claims about it, he should expect to have his claims challenged. For all any of us knows, he could be reacting to the specific blue dye used in the packet!
I’ve never seen Aaron make any "scientific" claims about it, and last I looked, Diet Coke didn’t come in a blue packet. Plenty of people get headaches from aspartame, just like plenty of people get headaches from MSG. Are you also out railing that Chinese restaurants shouldn’t offer no-MSG options just because you or most people don’t have problems with it? Do you insist that anyone who has "hay fever" in the late summer and fall go get tested for ragweed allergy in case they’re just reacting psychologically pollen count on the nightly news? — "There’s a seeker born every minute."
Response:
You’re ignoring my point: BECAUSE there is a distinguishable taste difference, it’s not remotely a *blind* test, so as a *test*, it has no meaning. You *knew* which one had aspartame the second it hit your mouth. Umm… are you READING what I am WRITING??? Are you saying you’d notice a saccharin aftertaste when masked with heavy doses of Tabasco? Yes. I don’t consider 10 drops to be a "heavy" dose.
Why don’t you try putting it in a gel-coated caplet to be fair? I for one believe Aaron when he says that he experiences allergic reactions when ingesting Aspartame. Why would you even doubt him? Debby 310/210/150 — * * * * * WEB PAGE NOW BACK ON-LINE * * * * * WEBSITE: http://debby.simplenet.com ____ __ __ | _____ | | | | __ __ | ) )/ __ | | \ / / ”’ | ) ___/| ) || ) | / / (o o) /_/
Response:
Why don’t you try putting it in a gel-coated caplet to be fair? I for
That’s EXACTLY what I suggested… but Aaron declined to to try this. one believe Aaron when he says that he experiences allergic reactions when ingesting Aspartame. Why would you even doubt him?
Frankly, I don’t *care* what his reactions are to aspartame, or whether they are physiological or psychological… he continues to rail against aspartame as if it was inherently dangerous to everyone (e.g. his titling it "Nutramigraine" and claiming "toxicity") while admitting he has not attempted the most basic of blind testing to see if it is even the sole possible cause of his own claimed symptoms (let ALONE demonstrating that it is dangerous to the general population)… it’s pseudoscience like that that gets us the "lowcarbing is dangerous" admonitions from the general public. For many years, aspartame was the ONLY A.S. available in the U.S. that didn’t have a demonstrated (if arguably so) cancer link and/or an aftertaste that to some people is unpalatable. It’s saved a lot of people a lot of calories and a lot of insulin. He’s free to use it or not at his pleasure, but when he makes specific "scientific" claims about it, he should expect to have his claims challenged. For all any of us knows, he could be reacting to the specific blue dye used in the packet! — Scott yosemite at accesscom.com Atkins induction 2/4/99 341/315/200 "I came here to kick ass and chew gum… and I’m all out of gum." — "Rowdy" Roddy Piper
Response:
Why don’t you try putting it in a gel-coated caplet to be fair? I for one believe Aaron when he says that he experiences allergic reactions when ingesting Aspartame. Why would you even doubt him?
I certainly believe him, because I have reactions of my own, though not headaches. Who cares about double blind taste tests? Aspartame makes me feel like I was hit up with some kind of tranquilizer. (fatigued and feel only half awake, trouble concentrating, can’t remember people’s names and phone numbers, can’t follow the plot of a movie, forget what I got up for by the time I get to the next room…) My doctor thought I had some kind of chronic fatigue syndrome for a year, before someone suggested to me that it might be the aspartame. I was only having 2 to 4 Diet Snapples a day, and no other aspartame. When I quit drinking it, it went away. When I occasionally indulge in aspartame products for a change of taste, it comes back for a day or two. I don’t give a damn whether whoever believes me or not. I think the fact that it causes brain damage in phenyketonurics, that phenylalanine is the ‘PA’ in L-DOPA, and that excessive aspartame inhibits serotonin, are sufficient clues that it *can* have an effect on the brain of people who are sensitive to it. I might add that I’m hypersensitive to tranquilizers, and that may have a bearing on my symptoms. When I was prescribed Valium for muscle spasms following a car accident, I had to cut the 5mg tablets into quarters, and take 1.5mg to avoid feeling over-medicated. — "There’s a seeker born every minute."
Response:
Why don’t you try putting it in a gel-coated caplet to be fair? I for That’s EXACTLY what I suggested… but Aaron declined to to try this.
Can you point out where I "declined" to try this?!? Retract your statement. one believe Aaron when he says that he experiences allergic reactions when ingesting Aspartame. Why would you even doubt him? Frankly, I don’t *care* what his reactions are to aspartame, or whether they are physiological or psychological… he continues to rail against aspartame as if it was inherently dangerous to everyone (e.g. his titling it "Nutramigraine" and claiming "toxicity") while admitting he has not attempted the most basic of blind testing to see if it is even the sole possible cause of his own claimed symptoms (let ALONE demonstrating that it is dangerous to the general population)… it’s pseudoscience like that that gets us the "lowcarbing is dangerous" admonitions from the general public.
Send me the caplets, find a friend in LA to administer them to me. As for "railing against aspartame", I have ALWAYS said that for people who don’t have a problem with it, hooray! I never ever EVER advocated removing it. I rail against those who deny I have symptoms with it. Do you have a reading disability? Do you spend as much time attacking those who publicize peanut allergies? For many years, aspartame was the ONLY A.S. available in the U.S. that didn’t have a demonstrated (if arguably so) cancer link and/or an aftertaste that to some people is unpalatable. It’s saved a lot of people a lot of calories and a lot of insulin. He’s free to use it or not at his pleasure, but when he makes specific "scientific" claims about it, he should expect to have his claims challenged. For all any of us knows, he could be reacting to the specific blue dye used in the packet!
I don’t mind the taste. It the mania that follows. The last few times those symptoms appeared, I could ALWAYS trace it back to having inadvertantly consumed aspartame. Taste has NOTHING to do with it. In the future, please refrain from putting words in my mouth or at least take the time to cut and paste my words, in context, to make your points. It is intellectually dishonest to do otherwise. Aaron alt.support.diet.low-carb FAQ: http://start.at/asdlc (245/213/185)
Response:
Aaron, I for one support you! If you have an allergy to Aspartame, products should DEFINITELY be labeled appropriately! No company should hide ANY ingredient. There are laws against that type of thing aren’t there? I mean, what if a company neglected to label something that had peanuts in it, and a person with a peanut allergy died from eating this product? Can you imagine the lawsuits? Isn’t this your whole point Aaron, that things should be labeled appropriately so that people who *do* have allergies can make an appropriate choice, or am I just not getting it? Debby 310/210/150 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why don’t you try putting it in a gel-coated caplet to be fair? I for That’s EXACTLY what I suggested… but Aaron declined to to try this. Can you point out where I "declined" to try this?!? Retract your statement. one believe Aaron when he says that he experiences allergic reactions when ingesting Aspartame. Why would you even doubt him? Frankly, I don’t *care* what his reactions are to aspartame, or whether they are physiological or psychological… he continues to rail against aspartame as if it was inherently dangerous to everyone (e.g. his titling it "Nutramigraine" and claiming "toxicity") while admitting he has not attempted the most basic of blind testing to see if it is even the sole possible cause of his own claimed symptoms (let ALONE demonstrating that it is dangerous to the general population)… it’s pseudoscience like that that gets us the "lowcarbing is dangerous" admonitions from the general public. Send me the caplets, find a friend in LA to administer them to me. As for "railing against aspartame", I have ALWAYS said that for people who don’t have a problem with it, hooray! I never ever EVER advocated removing it. I rail against those who deny I have symptoms with it. Do you have a reading disability? Do you spend as much time attacking those who publicize peanut allergies? For many years, aspartame was the ONLY A.S. available in the U.S. that didn’t have a demonstrated (if arguably so) cancer link and/or an aftertaste that to some people is unpalatable. It’s saved a lot of people a lot of calories and a lot of insulin. He’s free to use it or not at his pleasure, but when he makes specific "scientific" claims about it, he should expect to have his claims challenged. For all any of us knows, he could be reacting to the specific blue dye used in the packet! I don’t mind the taste. It the mania that follows. The last few times those symptoms appeared, I could ALWAYS trace it back to having inadvertantly consumed aspartame. Taste has NOTHING to do with it. In the future, please refrain from putting words in my mouth or at least take the time to cut and paste my words, in context, to make your points. It is intellectually dishonest to do otherwise. Aaron alt.support.diet.low-carb FAQ: http://start.at/asdlc (245/213/185)
– * * * * * WEB PAGE NOW BACK ON-LINE * * * * * WEBSITE: http://debby.simplenet.com ____ __ __ | _____ | | | | __ __ | ) )/ __ | | \ / / ”’ | ) ___/| ) || ) | / / (o o) /_/
Response:
If you can’t distinguish Coke from Diet Coke based on just taste alone, then you aren’t a good candidate for ANY form of taste-testing. It’s not TASTE testing. It’s SYMPTOM testing. The whole point of the heavy ice was to dilute the taste.
You’re ignoring my point: BECAUSE there is a distinguishable taste difference, it’s not remotely a *blind* test, so as a *test*, it has no meaning. You *knew* which one had aspartame the second it hit your mouth. Umm… are you READING what I am WRITING??? Are you saying you’d notice a saccharin aftertaste when masked with heavy doses of Tabasco?
Yes. I don’t consider 10 drops to be a "heavy" dose. A *meaningful* test would be a DOUBLE-blind test with the taste/texture factors eliminated completely, e.g. putting the aspartame in a CAPSULE. Yes, given ACCESS to scientifically tabletized aspartame or saccharin, the experiments I proposed would be improved. I obviously wanted something readily and immediately accessable. I don’t have the resources or time to conduct a double-blind study.
That’s funny; both saccharin and aspartame are available in tablet form in most supermarkets I’ve been in. Do-it-yourself gelatin capsules are available in any health food store. This ain’t rocket science. And even if YOU have a personal adverse reaction to aspartame, that doesn’t support the original claim of this thread: that aspartame is inherently "toxic". Heck, many/most of those participating in this group have an adverse reaction to carbohydrate — does that make it "toxic"? Relatively, yes. If it is toxic to one person, it is, by definition, toxic.
Then, by your definition, EVERY food item is "toxic".
Response:
Hide it in a tasteless powder. When I was "tested" by my co-workers, it was on heavily iced Coke vs. Diet Coke, in order to dilute the "flavor". The taste had nothing to do with the rapid onset of headaches and bodyaches similar to flu symptoms.
If you can’t distinguish Coke from Diet Coke based on just taste alone, then you aren’t a good candidate for ANY form of taste-testing. Put 2 packets of Nutramigraine in a shotglass of tequila with 10 drops of Tabasco to mask it on one day and do the same with Sweet ‘n Low on another day and I **GUARANTEE** I’ll tell the difference based upon the symptoms I suffer.
And I *guarantee* you I’d be able to tell the difference, too, based on the saccharin aftertaste. A *meaningful* test would be a DOUBLE-blind test with the taste/texture factors eliminated completely, e.g. putting the aspartame in a CAPSULE. I’m not saying anything as to whether your claimed adverse reactions are genuine; I’m just saying that these specific "test" examples are meaningless in scientific terms. And even if YOU have a personal adverse reaction to aspartame, that doesn’t support the original claim of this thread: that aspartame is inherently "toxic". Heck, many/most of those participating in this group have an adverse reaction to carbohydrate — does that make it "toxic"? — Scott yosemite at accesscom.com Atkins induction 2/4/99 341/315/200 Calvin: "Why are you crying?" Mom: "I’m cutting up an onion." Calvin: "It must be hard to cook if you anthropomorphize your vegetables."
Response:
Hide it in a tasteless powder. When I was "tested" by my co-workers, it was on heavily iced Coke vs. Diet Coke, in order to dilute the "flavor". The taste had nothing to do with the rapid onset of headaches and bodyaches similar to flu symptoms. If you can’t distinguish Coke from Diet Coke based on just taste alone, then you aren’t a good candidate for ANY form of taste-testing.
It’s not TASTE testing. It’s SYMPTOM testing. The whole point of the heavy ice was to dilute the taste. Put 2 packets of Nutramigraine in a shotglass of tequila with 10 drops of Tabasco to mask it on one day and do the same with Sweet ‘n Low on another day and I **GUARANTEE** I’ll tell the difference based upon the symptoms I suffer. And I *guarantee* you I’d be able to tell the difference, too, based on the saccharin aftertaste.
Umm… are you READING what I am WRITING??? Are you saying you’d notice a saccharin aftertaste when masked with heavy doses of Tabasco? The mask is immaterial. Choose ANY masking flavor, I really don’t care. A *meaningful* test would be a DOUBLE-blind test with the taste/texture factors eliminated completely, e.g. putting the aspartame in a CAPSULE. I’m not saying anything as to whether your claimed adverse reactions are genuine; I’m just saying that these specific "test" examples are meaningless in scientific terms.
Yes, given ACCESS to scientifically tabletized aspartame or saccharin, the experiments I proposed would be improved. I obviously wanted something readily and immediately accessable. I don’t have the resources or time to conduct a double-blind study. And even if YOU have a personal adverse reaction to aspartame, that doesn’t support the original claim of this thread: that aspartame is inherently "toxic". Heck, many/most of those participating in this group have an adverse reaction to carbohydrate — does that make it "toxic"?
Relatively, yes. If it is toxic to one person, it is, by definition, toxic. Many people are, fortunately, immune to toxins. Are mosquito bites toxic? Bee stings? Peanuts? Phenylalinine? Toxic does not equal lethal or even severe. Anyone with scientific training should know THAT. Aaron alt.support.diet.low-carb FAQ: http://start.at/asdlc (245/213/185)
Response:
Two of my brothers-in-law are neurologists. I am not phenylketoneuric. Aside from a mild reaction to MSG, aspartame is the only other substance that provokes any adverse physical reaction. (OK, I get the runs after eating at one of the local pizza shops, but that’s a different story, 
) Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Aaron. I’ve read with interest your experiences with aspartame. When you describe your symptoms, they sound QUITE similar to those that phenylketoneurics experiencs with L-phenylalanine. Is it possible that you’re in that category? If so, aspartame isn’t the only thing you should be avoiding. I believe that testing for phenylalanine intolerance is a common practice for new-borns today but you and I were born before such a test was available.
Response:
Hide it in a tasteless powder. When I was "tested" by my co-workers, it was on heavily iced Coke vs. Diet Coke, in order to dilute the "flavor". The taste had nothing to do with the rapid onset of headaches and bodyaches similar to flu symptoms. Put 2 packets of Nutramigraine in a shotglass of tequila with 10 drops of Tabasco to mask it on one day and do the same with Sweet ‘n Low on another day and I **GUARANTEE** I’ll tell the difference based upon the symptoms I suffer. If you’re so certain it’s taste-dependent, pony up a bet and find a friend in LA to administer the test to me or shut up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, I discount claims of a direct aspartame/lupus/MS connection, but I think that the nervous reaction of MANY people is worthy of note. Nervous reaction? No – try BIG FRIGGIN’ **SIGH**!!! Tired of hearing all the bull*^&% tossed around here like a farmers holiday! Add to that an EYEROLL and a CRIMINY – NOT AGAIN!!! And then you will have a more accurate representation of why people react to these lame-assed posts! And of course you would be able to tell what was sweetened with nutrasweet….you can TASTE the difference. That alone would disqualify you as someone who could make a blind test legit! If you personally have a problem with it, don’t use it. But don’t keep spreading the crap about it causing every ailment known to mankind! I pose to you what I pose to the other people blowing this hot air around: What chemical do you blame these ailments on PRE-nutrasweet? Because I can absolutely guarantee that they exsisted long before aspartame arrived on the scene. SHEESH. —
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r less anything they like. And I don’t think you’re ever going to :find out what they’ve used by any measure short of criminal prosecution. : :—
– Naomi 