Trunder storm in a box
Question:
It amazes me that a lot of otherwise intelligent people who should really know better speak like they know EXACTLY what is going on with alpine as a company and Alpine as a product WITHOUT EVER EVEN TAKING THE TIME TO READ ANYTHING FROM THE COMPANY OR USING OR EVALUATING THE PRODUCT PERSONALLY. (kinda like being an expert on sushi because mom and dad told you it tastes fishy…)
Of course, the corollary to this argument is "kinda like being an expert on ozone, IAQ, and decontamination of structures because Alpine told you it cleans air by removing pollutants." Or you are an expert by selling Alpine. On evaluating the product personally: how do I go about that? How do I measure the complex variables involved with *any* IAQ situation? How do I know my Alpine unit is doing what it is claimed to do? Outside of the fact that the air may seem "fresher"? As far as Alpine goes for *me*, and I assume you are writing this partially to me–your final paragraph would indicate at least part of this post is directed to me–I have Alpine video tapes and Alpine product "information", if it can actually be described as such. I have a carpet and upholstery cleaning business, a restoration company, and I do some specialized "niche" market work in these fields. Frankly, unless you are in this type of work, or are in industrial applications using ozone, I doubt that you have my experience in using ozone. Perhaps you do; I don’t know, and you may be far more of an "expert" than I would ever hope to be–I am *not* an expert on IAQ, or ozone. In the restoration industry, the use of ozone, along with its fundamental dangers, is well known, addressed, and the requirements of OSHA regulations is highly stressed. I know ozone works, and I find it a valuable tool. Of course, it requires some pretty strong concentrations to make it work, and those concentrations are extremely hazardous to living organisms, including, obviously, pets and people, as well as plants, rubber, and some synthetic surfaces. Now, because of my business, I have been contacted by several Alpine dealers–it is after all, what Alpine suggests in its marketing literature that I saw. I was more than curious about these machines when I first learned of them, thinking that perhaps they may be useful to some of my clients. And, hey, guess what? They *may* be, but I’ll be damned if Alpine can tell me *why*. Unfortunately, I found in speaking to the dealers who contacted me, that they were incapable of answering simple questions about these machines, once they got past the Alpine provided "information". Now that may be an unfortunate experience on my part and my experience with Alpine dealers, but I don’t think it is unique. And let me tell you *why*: because there is *NO* definitive proof that Alpine machines function as their marketing claims…it does not *exist*. If it did, Alpine would not have made a consentment agreement with the FTC in 1995, would not be hauled into court again in 1998 over the *same* issues, and you and I would not be having this discussion. It is real simple: for the vast part of IAQ claims, charges, solutions, procedures, processes, and techniques, there has been neither adequate time to have real world study and testing done, and their is a gaping hole in peer reviwed, published scientific studies on IAQ matters. Consult the EPA site on IAQ. You will find that the EPA cannot state that duct cleaning, say, actually works, while they do suggest it is a needed process, in some instances. Why? Because there have neen no definitive studies proving the contentions. Do Alpine machines "work"? Alpines may *certainly* supplement an IAQ program in inhabited structures, and as long as exposure to ozone is not a problem to inhabitants. OTOH, I can state that it is extremely improbable that Alpines "work" in the manner in which these machines are marketed and described. As one example, the only *proven* method of removing gaseous contaminates in air is the use of either adsorbent or reactive materials, and it is under controversy as the materials used off gas the adsorbed particles at the same rate of initial adsorbtion when the "filter" media becomes saturated. No one can measure how *long* it takes for this to actually happen, given the differences of contamination in structures–there is no user instructions saying "after 2 hours remove adsorbent and replace with fresh". IOW, in a structure with new paint, furniture, wallpaper, carpets, wood, building materials, etc, the level of VOCs is extremely high; in some cases 10 times what the level is acceptable for human habitation. This leads to one aspect of "sick building syndrome": a VOC contamination so high, that workers in buildings get ill from breathing the air. Over time, these new building materials and furnishings off gas the VOCs, and their levels fall to acceptable limits. One can see then, that *ventilation* is key to *source* removal, which Alpine claims in its marketing is ineffective, impossible, or incorrect. Can Alpine remove VOCs? Ask for proof. There is *none*. BTW, ozone and ion generation, Alpine’s methods of cleaning air, are not proven VOC "removers", and strictly as *opinion* (which the EPA says categorically), I doubt they will be, especially when considering the very low levels of ozone produced by Alpine machines. Once again, gases cannot be removed without the use of adsorbent beds of materials, and the EPA’s own studies on SBS ("sick building syndrome") and BRI ("business related illness") state that air purification devices of *all* types will not solve VOC problems. Only adsorbents will. I’M as catious as the next guy when it comes to evaluating products for my company to sell. If Alpine was such a farce, then WHY are they growing at such an amazing rate? 40,000 units per month just dont walk out the door on thier own. Alpine did over three hundred million in sales last year, and the way its growing, is going to break 500 mill this year…probably will be a BILLION dollar company by the end of 1999.
Since you are so cautious, and I believe you, and I also believe that you are a serious person, how did you *evaluate* the products? Below, you state: " A million units sold just last year…", above you write "40,000 units per month…"–is that the *current* sales rate? Further you write that Alpine did $300 million in gross sales (I assume that is what you are talking about), on its way to $500 million and probably a billion dollars in 1999. A million units in a year is 83,333 units per month, which is half of your 40,000 units per month. If 40,000 units per month is the current figure, and one million units in 1997 is accurate, you are losing ground, not gaining. Since Alpine states at its web site its biggest seller is the XL-15, and also states that the Bora, a cheaper model, may become the number one seller, you can hardly grow sales by selling a cheaper product, or at half of the sales in terms of units per month. Now I am *not* saying that Alpine is not growing; I am saying that it appears by the figures you provide here, something doesn’t add-up, *literally*. Please feel free to continue your discussion on how those who disagree with Alpine’s positions need to spend some time learning about the company, or its products, as you so obviously have. Even if you’re stretching feasability, you REALLY can’t contribute ALL these sales to scam artists ripping people off….people are buying the things because they work, its as simple as that.
In fact, it is so "simple" that Alpine cannot provide *proof* that its products do, indeed, "work", as claimed. Perhaps you can. Alpine’s *claims* are not only that, but they are hyberbolic marketing. Alpine cannot remove the sources of indoor air contaminates, nor even close to all the contaminates found in structures. *No* system in place today can. To follow Alpine’s "advice" from its marketing implications, is for the inhabitants of said structures to not follow fundamental steps and processes which are *proven* to eliminate IAQ problems: 1) Eliminate the *source*. 2) *Ventilate*. 3) *Clean* the air. It is Alpine’s marketing which says skip Steps 1 and 2. Hardly surprising, considering their business, but it is hardly what actually is required. But it is a simplistic cure-all. Alpine units have over 20 Billion user-hours to thier credit now (actually a lot more if you wanna take the time to figure it out exactly) A million units sold just last year translates to roughly EIGHT BILLION user hours just last year…you’d figure thered be a lynch mob storming their manufacturing site if the things were as bad a some of you guys try to say they are…but that isn’t happening….wonder why? Instead, they keep on growing.
Growing? Not by your figures. "…as bad a[s] some of you guys say they are"? Once again, I will remind you–I disagree with the claims and the marketing of Alpine devices. Prove me wrong on the smell of ozone. Or on how a homeowner can remove (this is IAQ, remember, not "air freshening"?) charged particles knocked from the air by ion generation when Alpine provides no collection plate(s). Prove to me how Alpine units "remove" gases. Or disinfect through oxidation using ozone in such low concentrations. And on which specific microorganisms. Explain to me how Alpine can claim it helps asthmatics by cleaning air by using ozone generation when ozone has been proven detrimental to an asthmatic’s health. Please explain to me why either "removal of the source of IAQ problems" and supplying better ventilation to inhabited structures, which are the first two steps in the restoration industry’s procedures to decontaminate and clean indoor air problems, and is also the recommendation of various government agencies, is in error, or ineffective, as Alpine marketing claims … read more »
Response:
It amazes me that a lot of otherwise intelligent people who should really know better speak like they know EXACTLY what is going on with alpine as a company and Alpine as a product WITHOUT EVER EVEN TAKING THE TIME TO READ ANYTHING FROM THE COMPANY OR USING OR EVALUATING THE PRODUCT PERSONALLY. (kinda like being an expert on sushi because mom and dad told you it tastes fishy…) I’M as catious as the next guy when it comes to evaluating products for my company to sell. If Alpine was such a farce, then WHY are they growing at such an amazing rate? 40,000 units per month just dont walk out the door on thier own. Alpine did over three hundred million in sales last year, and the way its growing, is going to break 500 mill this year…probably will be a BILLION dollar company by the end of 1999.
BTW According to Mike Jackson on the 8 PM Conference Call we had an awesome day ! He’s going to comment on it tomorrow on the noon call. I am curious to hear it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Even if you’re stretching feasability, you REALLY can’t contribute ALL these sales to scam artists ripping people off….people are buying the things because they work, its as simple as that. Alpine units have over 20 Billion user-hours to thier credit now (actually a lot more if you wanna take the time to figure it out exactly) A million units sold just last year translates to roughly EIGHT BILLION user hours just last year…you’d figure thered be a lynch mob storming their manufacturing site if the things were as bad a some of you guys try to say they are…but that isn’t happening….wonder why? Instead, they keep on growing. About the web page site you were referring to: Alpine does not allow it’s dealers to have a web page presence. They are adamant about that. Anything that you see on the web is NOT connected with Alpine except thier own home page. If you find another page about alpine…e-mail Alpine with the url and Alpine will IMMEDIATLY suspend thier dealer priviledges if they are indeed an Alpine dealer.
Harold Spatz Independent Alpine Air Dealer corporate Web Site http://www.alpineindustries.com
Response:
It amazes me that a lot of otherwise intelligent people who should really know better speak like they know EXACTLY what is going on with alpine as a company and Alpine as a product WITHOUT EVER EVEN TAKING THE TIME TO READ ANYTHING FROM THE COMPANY OR USING OR EVALUATING THE PRODUCT PERSONALLY. (kinda like being an expert on sushi because mom and dad told you it tastes fishy…) I’M as catious as the next guy when it comes to evaluating products for my company to sell. If Alpine was such a farce, then WHY are they growing at such an amazing rate? 40,000 units per month just dont walk out the door on thier own. Alpine did over three hundred million in sales last year, and the way its growing, is going to break 500 mill this year…probably will be a BILLION dollar company by the end of 1999. Even if you’re stretching feasability, you REALLY can’t contribute ALL these sales to scam artists ripping people off….people are buying the things because they work, its as simple as that. Alpine units have over 20 Billion user-hours to thier credit now (actually a lot more if you wanna take the time to figure it out exactly) A million units sold just last year translates to roughly EIGHT BILLION user hours just last year…you’d figure thered be a lynch mob storming their manufacturing site if the things were as bad a some of you guys try to say they are…but that isn’t happening….wonder why? Instead, they keep on growing. About the web page site you were referring to: Alpine does not allow it’s dealers to have a web page presence. They are adamant about that. Anything that you see on the web is NOT connected with Alpine except thier own home page. If you find another page about alpine…e-mail Alpine with the url and Alpine will IMMEDIATLY suspend thier dealer priviledges if they are indeed an Alpine dealer.
Response:
Also, to be fair, my generators, if set to their maximum output, put out far more ozone than Alpine units. Appreciate that statement… As to smell… Am sitting 3 feet away from an Alpine XL-15. Smells good in here !
Aren’t smelling ozone, are you? (-; – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 
Harold Spatz Independent Alpine Air Dealer corporate Web Site http://www.alpineindustries.com
Response:
This is a partial price list from an Alpine dealer on the web. I assume it is MSR, and perhaps not accurate as to actual prices paid. I don’t know; this is what I found. XL-15 $749.40 880 $492.20 2500 $962.76 5000 $1208.28 HMA 150 $600.96 SA 1000 $785.40 SA 2000 $1068.72
I would love to get a link to this Web Site… All of the dealers I know sell the XL-15 at $599 with the other units also at lower prices than these Harold Spatz Independent Alpine Air Dealer corporate Web Site http://www.alpineindustries.com
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BRAINWASH AND A FORM OF MLM….THATS ALL I WILL SAY – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah POOR Colins memory continues to fail him…..he neglected to note that the charges against Alpine were because of ALLEGED MIS_WORDING of etc etc etc Merely curious, but why are you so intent upon trying to argue for the use of an air purification device to a particular group (asthmatics) in which the group may most certainly have adverse reactions to this *type* of air purification? Perhaps if you would review what I ACTUALLY wrote you’d notice that Im not argiung that the Alpine units are for everybody. A large percentage of the population CAN use them. If you dont like it or can’t use it If you dont like it or can’t use it DON"T BUY IT. If you dont like it or can’t use it DON"T BUY IT. There are millions of Americans desiring better IAQ. Obviously, the largest number of these individuals will not be suffering from asthma, so I am somewhat puzzled as to why it is so singularly important to try and persuade asthmatics to use ozone generators. Especially if there is a very real chance that ozone could aggravate their condition, or perhaps much worse. See above. Why insist on asthmatics use? Why bother? I don’t understand your motivation here at all. Is it just personal animus? I have NEVER *insisted* on asthmatics’ use of anything. As a restoration/cleaning professional ……. Can you enlighten me on the degree of technical proficiency required to attain this lofty position?? EE perhaps or maybe a physics major? Personally, I find the Alpine units laughably expensive, since one can buy professional quality ozone generators for less, should one really desire one for the home. And that in itself would kill my desire for one. These overpriced machines are ridiculous in cost compared to Rainbow, Sonizaire, etc. Once one eliminates the department store "TOYS", the number of real choices in quality filtration systems, hepa or otherwise become quite small. An Alpine unit for a home costs $600, thats right in the middle of the low end of the price spectrum for most types of "air systems". And when one considers that you NEVER have to buy any replacement cartridges or whatever, it becomes a very reasonably priced unit. You like ozone so much? Crank out 2-5 grams per hour. Let’s get *serious*. Now why would you want to do something like that? Do you turn up your stereo until your ears bleed? BTW, are the Alpines electronic precipitators, or just ion generators? If they are ion generators, do they have positive ion collection plates? What percent of particles are captured, and what percent stay in the air, or are attracted to the walls, beds, furniture, and floors in a home? You can find any of the technical specs you need from the fax on demand line number: 423 798 1940 How does the ozone sensor work, and how accurate is it? How accurate is the output of Alpine machines? Accurate enough for the CSA to certify the units as safe for indoor use and eliminate the need for any warning lables. "Thunderstorm in a box"? Ever smell ozone? Ah, yeah once or twice…… Is sure as hell does NOT smell like clean, fresh air. And nothing like the aftermath of a thunderstorm. At least my ozone generators don’t. Of course your machines don’t. Your experience is with a completely different animal. Im continually amazed at the level of referral business I get from my Alpine sales, everybody who gets a unit is so pleased with the things that I dont HAVE to sell anymore. They ALL say they are delighted with the improvement and "freshness" of the air in their homes. AND some of the additional sales are repeat sales to nursing homes, (several in the area) state run hospitals, Ear/Eye/nose-throat specialists, Two of the biggest employers in the area, and town halls. I’d be HAPPY to suppy you with contact names for these institutions so that you could call and tell them how they’ve been deluding themselves….. ‘Course, mine don’t make it *rain* to freshen the air, but maybe Alpine’s do… Witty, too…what a guy Mark – –
Response:
Also, to be fair, my generators, if set to their maximum output, put out far more ozone than Alpine units.
Appreciate that statement… As to smell… Am sitting 3 feet away from an Alpine XL-15. Smells good in here ! Harold Spatz Independent Alpine Air Dealer corporate Web Site http://www.alpineindustries.com
Response:
<SNIP Perhaps if you would review what I ACTUALLY wrote you’d notice that Im not argiung that the Alpine units are for everybody. A large percentage of the population CAN use them. If you dont like it or can’t use it
It is a *first* to me. I apologize for accusing you of something you don’t do, then. But thanks… <SNIP I have NEVER *insisted* on asthmatics’ use of anything.
Oh. Sorry, again. As a restoration/cleaning professional ……. Can you enlighten me on the degree of technical proficiency required to attain this lofty position?? EE perhaps or maybe a physics major?
Why? Is the study of IAQ, or even ozone strictly limited to those who understand applied mathematics, requiring electrical engineers (I get it;it is an electrical device, right?), or physicists? Ozone is, after all, such a difficult compound to make isn’t it? I studied Engineering Science at Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa. ES was a five year program with a heavy emphasis on electrical (there was no "electronic" engineering at Ames at that time, and I don’t know if there is today), mechanical, and chemical engineering courses, with no specific speciality. Usually, most graduates went to grad school (I didn’t) for advanced degrees. The broad background was especially good for further study in specialized engineering applications. At the time I went (mid-seventies) many (about 12 graduated per year in ES from roughly 1000-1200 engineering grads) were going after their BS to Nuc Eng/Mech Eng for power plants. I took the old Philco-Ford electronics year long technician training course (it was no longer taught as I learned it, too old, but it was still quite a good beginning) and earned 6 hours of college credits in math as a senior in high school (attended our local college on a program), was a National Merit Scholarship Finalist, and scored in the top 99% on college entrance exams. I was on an accelerated program at Ames upon enrollment. I have never been, however, a PE or an engineer; I found after making it through the hoops of differential equations, organic chem, thermodynamics, and the entry level courses in some of the engineering fields, etc, ad nauseum, I lost all interest in studying engineering, and it is all so much ancient and boring history. If you want to argue Ohm’s Law, I really can’t remember much beyond it, I have to frankly admit. I have worked with ozone for about seven years. In a variety of applications in decontamination, deodorization, and restoration projects. From fires to mold/mildew growth, including a 2 million dollar home so thick with mold that the hall entry table was covered by a half an inch of it. I’ve seen fungi (mushrooms) growing out of living room carpets. I have salvaged $35,000 worth of smoke damaged women’s clothing, decontaminated and deodorized homes whose owners never thought their quality of life in their damaged homes would return, and just did a $400,000 small (48 footer) sport fisherman whose bow hatch leaked while the owner was overseas, filling the entire interior with mildew, and deemed unsalvageable. I worked the midwest floods of, what, ‘93, did restoration work on two hurricanes, and have worked on one major "sick building syndrome" building, albeit a small part. I also have done crime scenes and raw sewage floods, and perhaps you can appreciate just how incredibly dangerous those particular projects are. Probably not nearly the "lofty position" acquired through the rigorous training Alpine provides its dealers, I’m sure, on the use of ozone and IAQ issues. Or even electrical engineering, right? I’m sure that most Alpine dealers can teach me integrals and differential equations, and we can discuss solid state physics, although I am very rusty as I have learned recently. I am also one of about 165 people (probably more now; haven’t counted for a year or so) in the US certified as a Master IICRC Cleaning and a Master Restoration Technician. I apologize for the term "professional", and I did not intend to sound pompous or arrogant; I am in in industry which is, well…as suspect as many Alpine dealers are <grin. Now it isn’t brain surgery, I’ll freely confess, or even designing spray can valves (my work study project which spelled the end of my interest in engineering), but then you may find it handy when your house is flooded, invaded by raccoons, or has a partial fire, and everything you own smells like your fireplace ashes. Or if you want your furnishings cleaned to eliminate much of the source of your IAQ problems. Perhaps not. Considering that I *know* I am no expert on IAQ, or ozone, I realize that my background hardly makes me qualified for detailed discussions with Alpine dealers whose expertise is that they sell Alpine products. And can answer remarkably few questions about them I find. Hopefully, someday I will meet Alpine distributor standards of excellence and knowledge. What do I have to do? *Buy* one? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I find the Alpine units laughably expensive, since one can buy professional quality ozone generators for less, should one really desire one for the home. And that in itself would kill my desire for one. These overpriced machines are ridiculous in cost compared to Rainbow, Sonizaire, etc. Once one eliminates the department store "TOYS", the number of real choices in quality filtration systems, hepa or otherwise become quite small. An Alpine unit for a home costs $600, thats right in the middle of the low end of the price spectrum for most types of "air systems". And when one considers that you NEVER have to buy any replacement cartridges or whatever, it becomes a very reasonably priced unit.
"Air systems", perhaps, and assuming that means HVAC "air systems" which can range in price up to several thousand dollars, but certainly not room to small home sized air purification devices. There are a variety of devices manufactured and sold considerably lower than $600. Which will probably match, meet, or surpass the Alpine units, but certainly not the claims of Alpine. However, your point on cost of use is valid. Providing of course that exposure to 24 hour a day ozone is not a problem. This is a partial price list from an Alpine dealer on the web. I assume it is MSR, and perhaps not accurate as to actual prices paid. I don’t know; this is what I found. XL-15 $749.40 880 $492.20 2500 $962.76 5000 $1208.28 HMA 150 $600.96 SA 1000 $785.40 SA 2000 $1068.72 The 5000 is for large areas needing more ozone production, and produces up to 420 mg per hour. At a selling price of $1200, one can almost buy two Rainbow 2000’s (two would be $1310), which can be set to produce the same amount of ozne per hour. Of course, the Rainbow does not come with a negative ion generation capability. But then, that may be beneficial. After all, I am assuming that there is no collection plate for these charged particles on the 5000, at least in any of the literature I have read on any Alpine model. The charged particles, according to Alpine, will fall conveniently to the floor, where you can "vacuum" them up. No kidding. Your basic home Hoover will "vacuum" up these particles, which all fall on the *floor*, leaving furniture, drapes, bedding, lampshades, etc, untouched. Must be those new bags. The argument goes that Alpines are better air cleaners than filtration, as even HEPA filters cannot filter out particles below 0.3 microns, which implies, obviously, that even a clean air, sealed with Certified S HEPA vacuum will, likewise, be unable to vacuum up these particles. Since these vacs are about $600, few people own them, and those that do, won’t be able to get these particles, anyhow. SInce the HEPA air filter won’t filter them, you need the negative ion capabilities of an Alpine. But since Alpine does not collect these particles, as a precipitator does, your Hoover *will*, according to Alpine… It is a rather tortuous explanation, but certainly well within the marketing parameters of Alpine. <SNIP BTW, are the Alpines electronic precipitators, or just ion generators? If they are ion generators, do they have positive ion collection plates? What percent of particles are captured, and what percent stay in the air, or are attracted to the walls, beds, furniture, and floors in a home? You can find any of the technical specs you need from the fax on demand line number: 423 798 1940
Thank you. I’ll try it. How does the ozone sensor work, and how accurate is it? How accurate is the output of Alpine machines? Accurate enough for the CSA to certify the units as safe for indoor use and eliminate the need for any warning lables. "Thunderstorm in a box"? Ever smell ozone? Ah, yeah once or twice…… Is sure as hell does NOT smell like clean, fresh air. And nothing like the aftermath of a thunderstorm. At least my ozone generators don’t. Of course your machines don’t. Your experience is with a completely different animal.
Tell me, ozone smells different from an Alpine versus a Rainbow, Sonizaire, or any other ozone generator you can possibly name? How is that? Before you try the old "output" level, I got news for you: I don’t smell it with the machine pegged, ‘kay? I quote: "’OK, smarty pants: What do I clean the air with, — if not a filter!’ 1} Radio Waves Can "Broadcast" Ions!) Certain new technologies make it possible to literally "broadcast" air-cleansing ions up to 60′ ; — even through walls! Ions cling to airborne particles and drag them to the floor where regular cleaning removes them! 2} Ozone! (That "fresh smell" after a thunderstorm; — It’s ozone!) It protects the earth from radiation and is now often used instead of chlorine to … read more »
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[deleted] : BTW, are the Alpines electronic precipitators, or just ion generators? : If they are ion generators, do they have positive ion collection : plates? What percent of particles are captured, and what percent stay : in the air, or are attracted to the walls, beds, furniture, and floors : in a home? As far as I can tell from hunting down their web-sites (funny how there are just _so_ many dead links ), the Alpine purifiers are primarily low-level ozone generators (which in Alpinespeak is apparently "activated oxygen") and may have an ioniser attached (model dependent). There is apparently a fan and a lint filter too. [deleted] : ‘Course, mine don’t make it *rain* to freshen the air, but maybe : Alpine’s do… Can’t possibly be true… the Australian farmers would be all over the units if it was true that they made _rain_ :-):-). Cheers, Kin Hoong
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Ah POOR Colins memory continues to fail him…..he neglected to note that the charges against Alpine were because of ALLEGED MIS_WORDING of etc etc etc Merely curious, but why are you so intent upon trying to argue for the use of an air purification device to a particular group (asthmatics) in which the group may most certainly have adverse reactions to this *type* of air purification?
Perhaps if you would review what I ACTUALLY wrote you’d notice that Im not argiung that the Alpine units are for everybody. A large percentage of the population CAN use them. If you dont like it or can’t use it If you dont like it or can’t use it DON"T BUY IT. If you dont like it or can’t use it DON"T BUY IT. There are millions of Americans desiring better IAQ. Obviously, the largest number of these individuals will not be suffering from asthma, so I am somewhat puzzled as to why it is so singularly important to try and persuade asthmatics to use ozone generators. Especially if there is a very real chance that ozone could aggravate their condition, or perhaps much worse.
See above. Why insist on asthmatics use? Why bother? I don’t understand your motivation here at all. Is it just personal animus?
I have NEVER *insisted* on asthmatics’ use of anything. As a restoration/cleaning professional …….
Can you enlighten me on the degree of technical proficiency required to attain this lofty position?? EE perhaps or maybe a physics major? Personally, I find the Alpine units laughably expensive, since one can buy professional quality ozone generators for less, should one really desire one for the home. And that in itself would kill my desire for one. These overpriced machines are ridiculous in cost compared to Rainbow, Sonizaire, etc.
Once one eliminates the department store "TOYS", the number of real choices in quality filtration systems, hepa or otherwise become quite small. An Alpine unit for a home costs $600, thats right in the middle of the low end of the price spectrum for most types of "air systems". And when one considers that you NEVER have to buy any replacement cartridges or whatever, it becomes a very reasonably priced unit. You like ozone so much? Crank out 2-5 grams per hour. Let’s get *serious*.
Now why would you want to do something like that? Do you turn up your stereo until your ears bleed? BTW, are the Alpines electronic precipitators, or just ion generators? If they are ion generators, do they have positive ion collection plates? What percent of particles are captured, and what percent stay in the air, or are attracted to the walls, beds, furniture, and floors in a home?
You can find any of the technical specs you need from the fax on demand line number: 423 798 1940 How does the ozone sensor work, and how accurate is it? How accurate is the output of Alpine machines?
Accurate enough for the CSA to certify the units as safe for indoor use and eliminate the need for any warning lables. "Thunderstorm in a box"? Ever smell ozone?
Ah, yeah once or twice…… Is sure as hell does NOT smell like clean, fresh air. And nothing like the aftermath of a thunderstorm. At least my ozone generators don’t.
Of course your machines don’t. Your experience is with a completely different animal. Im continually amazed at the level of referral business I get from my Alpine sales, everybody who gets a unit is so pleased with the things that I dont HAVE to sell anymore. They ALL say they are delighted with the improvement and "freshness" of the air in their homes. AND some of the additional sales are repeat sales to nursing homes, (several in the area) state run hospitals, Ear/Eye/nose-throat specialists, Two of the biggest employers in the area, and town halls. I’d be HAPPY to suppy you with contact names for these institutions so that you could call and tell them how they’ve been deluding themselves….. ‘Course, mine don’t make it *rain* to freshen the air, but maybe Alpine’s do…
Witty, too…what a guy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mark – –
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Would point out that Colin gives everyone a chance to get more or less any topic discussed and aired, providing it is not drug treatment and the defense of all leeches, the causes he is actually supposed to be championing.
I don’t think that I quite understand what you are trying to say here. BTW, what do you mean by "supposed to"?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah POOR Colins memory continues to fail him…..he neglected to note that the charges against Alpine were because of ALLEGED MIS_WORDING of advertising material….nothing more than that. He ALSO forgets to mention the there is a significant counter-suit filed against the FTC by Alpine for their actions. Colin also really finds it hard to recall that the canadian Standards Association tested and certified the Alpine 880 and XL-15 as being perfectly safe for indoor use. This agency is recognised internationally. Consumer Reports is really a significant source. A commercial firm that is EXPERT on EVERYTHING. Is this a naturally occuring phenomenon?
Merely curious, but why are you so intent upon trying to argue for the use of an air purification device to a particular group (asthmatics) in which the group may most certainly have adverse reactions to this *type* of air purification? There are millions of Americans desiring better IAQ. Obviously, the largest number of these individuals will not be suffering from asthma, so I am somewhat puzzled as to why it is so singularly important to try and persuade asthmatics to use ozone generators. Especially if there is a very real chance that ozone could aggravate their condition, or perhaps much worse. Why insist on asthmatics use? Why bother? I don’t understand your motivation here at all. Is it just personal animus? As a restoration/cleaning professional who has used ozone for *years*, I recognize its value, which is not the same thing as saying I would use it my home 24 hours per day, and I, BTW, do not suffer from asthma. Members of my immediate family do, however, so I know first-hand the problems asthmatics face. Personally, I find the Alpine units laughably expensive, since one can buy professional quality ozone generators for less, should one really desire one for the home. And that in itself would kill my desire for one. These overpriced machines are ridiculous in cost compared to Rainbow, Sonizaire, etc. You like ozone so much? Crank out 2-5 grams per hour. Let’s get *serious*. BTW, are the Alpines electronic precipitators, or just ion generators? If they are ion generators, do they have positive ion collection plates? What percent of particles are captured, and what percent stay in the air, or are attracted to the walls, beds, furniture, and floors in a home? How does the ozone sensor work, and how accurate is it? How accurate is the output of Alpine machines? "Thunderstorm in a box"? Ever smell ozone? Is sure as hell does NOT smell like clean, fresh air. And nothing like the aftermath of a thunderstorm. At least my ozone generators don’t. ‘Course, mine don’t make it *rain* to freshen the air, but maybe Alpine’s do… Mark – –
Response:
[deleted] : ‘Course, mine don’t make it *rain* to freshen the air, but maybe : Alpine’s do… Can’t possibly be true… the Australian farmers would be all over the units if it was true that they made _rain_ :-):-). Cheers, Kin Hoong
Yeah, but then you would get that fresh, clean *ozone* smell…which leads me to believe that *associating* the smell of the *aftermath* of a thunderstorm to the smell of ozone is a pretty cute (and cynical) trick. Apparently, not too many have been near a lightning strike to smell *ozone*, not *rain* in the atmosphere and the ground. Try this: the electrical short circuit smell is ozone–does this smell fresh, clean, and "tasty" to you? You know, that short lived, acrid smell? I just don’t think too many know what ozone smells like. Webster’s says ozone is a "…gas, irritating and with a pungent odor…". Gee….sounds just like those first minutes after a rainstorm smells, doesn’t it? From OSHA: "Appearance and Odor: colorless gas with a sharp, characterisitic odor; it can be smelled at concentrations below the permissible exposure level." "When a person is exposed to very low concentrations of ozone for even a brief period of time, the person may notice a sharp, irritating odor. As the concentration of ozone increases, the ability to smell it may decrease." "Ozone is extremely irritating to the upper and lower repiratory tract. The characterisitic odor is readily detectable at low concentrations (0.01 ppm to 0.05 ppm)." Before the Alpine devotees go ballistic, I *use* ozone all the time, think it is a great product in certain applications, would NEVER use it in my house when I am home–although I do every one/two months run an ozone machine in my condo all day while it is empty–and my only real objections are using it as a daily air purifier, and some of the rather "creative" marketing from sellers of these devices. The people who supply me with ozone machines are not nearly as gung-ho on ozone as some groups are. Of course, maybe they realize what product liability and class action lawsuits mean. The restoration industry embraces the use of ozone as a legitimate and valuable tool, and IMO, it *IS*. That being said, the restoration industry is very qualified in their use of ozone, and is constantly warning on the dangers of using it. Also, to be fair, my generators, if set to their maximum output, put out far more ozone than Alpine units. Mark – –
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ah POOR Colins memory continues to fail him…..he neglected to note that the charges against Alpine were because of ALLEGED MIS_WORDING of advertising material….nothing more than that. He ALSO forgets to mention the there is a significant counter-suit filed against the FTC by Alpine for their actions. Colin also really finds it hard to recall that the canadian Standards Association tested and certified the Alpine 880 and XL-15 as being perfectly safe for indoor use. This agency is recognised internationally. Consumer Reports is really a significant source. A commercial firm that is EXPERT on EVERYTHING. Is this a naturally occuring phenomenon?
Response:
Ah POOR Colins memory continues to fail him…..he neglected to note that the charges against Alpine were because of ALLEGED MIS_WORDING of advertising material….nothing more than that.
That can be serious in itself; try leaving out one word in your asthma inhaler instructions. Consumer Reports is really a significant source. A commercial firm that is EXPERT on EVERYTHING. Is this a naturally occuring phenomenon?
I apologize for my double-post. _CR_ is part of a not-for-profit organization (thus non-profit) that claims expertise only on the products they test (hiring experts, and explaining their methodology.) If you’d actually checked out their web site, you’d know this. I don’t work for them, but I do read their reviews regularly for their objective (non-salesperson) opinions. Scott T.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The proof is in the performance, Colin. As you sit at your monitor whining, over 40,000 alpine units are sold Each month. Alpine is going to exceed 500 MILLION dollars in business in 1998, and will hit one Billion most likely in 1999. IN 2000 we go international. Over a million units sold in the last 2 years…. So you are saying that you are making a lot of money selling ozone generators to asthmatics. It really lets us know where your priorities are. So,…..Colin…can you point out just exactly where it says we are selling ozone generators to asthmatics in the above paragraph?? I
You describe selling Apine units, which generate ozone. And you’re posting to alt.support.asthma, which means you’re trying to sell to asthmatics. How many of the units you’ve sold were to asthmatics is unclear. How dangerous ozone is to asthmatics is not unclear; whenever I smell ozone I rush for my emergency meds. to save time. Scott T."hanks for asking."
Response:
So,…..Colin…can you point out just exactly where it says we are selling ozone generators to asthmatics in the above paragraph?? Its a REALLY small paragraph, and I cant find where i said that. This just illustrates your usual tendency to bend the facts to fit your interpretation and agenda.
When I said ‘you’ I was lumping you in with all the other Alpine salesmen who post to the newsgroup. Since they are advertising the product in the newsgroup, I feel safe in the conclusion that they are attempting to sell it to asthmatics. Our priorities are to put effective technology into the hands of people who CAN use it, for a fair price with products that work. Doesnt get any simpler than that.
Then you should have no problem with advising potential customers that there is significant scientific evidence that the Alpine unit is harmfull to asthmatics? Oh but YES you are!! Youre selling yourself as an "expert" and an authority on just about everything, trying to pose as some sort of ersatz "supervisor" in the newsgroup, when you by your own admission are not a professional in the medical field.
Only in _your_ opinion.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The proof is in the performance, Colin. As you sit at your monitor whining, over 40,000 alpine units are sold Each month. Alpine is going to exceed 500 MILLION dollars in business in 1998, and will hit one Billion most likely in 1999. IN 2000 we go international. Over a million units sold in the last 2 years…. So you are saying that you are making a lot of money selling ozone generators to asthmatics. It really lets us know where your priorities are. So,…..Colin…can you point out just exactly where it says we are selling ozone generators to asthmatics in the above paragraph?? Its a REALLY small paragraph, and I cant find where i said that. This just illustrates your usual tendency to bend the facts to fit your interpretation and agenda. Our priorities are to put effective technology into the hands of people who CAN use it, for a fair price with products that work. Doesnt get any simpler than that. I know where you’re coming from Colin, like a lot of other people who Can’t compete, you’re envious of success. Since when am I competing? I do not sell anything. Oh but YES you are!! Youre selling yourself as an "expert" and an authority on just about everything, trying to pose as some sort of ersatz "supervisor" in the newsgroup, when you by your own admission are not a professional in the medical field. You’re selling your point of view…I’m glad to see that Im not the only one who isn’t "buying"…..
Hi there, Would point out that Colin gives everyone a chance to get more or less any topic discussed and aired, providing it is not drug treatment and the defense of all leeches, the causes he is actually supposed to be championing. Cheers, R. Friedel. Buteyko for ever. The patient
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